One of my favorite things about Astarion’s story is that there is absolutely no push for Astarion to forgive or understand his abuser.
It’s true that we get a small glimpse into Cazador’s past, where we learn that he was once a victim in the centuries-old cycle of vampirism and abuse, but that’s all. It serves its purpose as showing that vampirism is a trap and warning of what can happen to Astarion if he goes through with the ritual, but does not excuse Cazador’s actions or go out of the way to make us feel sorry for him. The player may feel some sympathy for Cazador or they may not. None of the companions express any sympathy for him, Astarion doesn’t waver in his resolve to destroy Cazador despite learning of his past, and there are no options from the player to push any understanding or forgiveness on him.
Honestly, I find this refreshing. Getting a little personal here, but experiencing generational trauma both in my family and with my partner’s own horribly abusive dad, we’ve been told “oh, they didn’t know any better”, “they were abused too”, “you have to forgive them”, etc., more times than I can count, but the fact remains that even though our “Cazadors” were victims, they’ve moved on to causing pain themselves and have shown no genuine remorse. The game accurately shows that there is a point where a victim becomes a perpetrator and can become beyond redemption. I love that Astarion’s end of breaking the cycle does not include him forgiving or feeling sorry for Cazador, but with catharsis and closure that many survivors don’t get in real life.
I’ll end this little ramble with a screenshot from an interview with Neil in which I appreciate his take on this topic. Link to full interview here (try to overlook the typos in Astarion's name, lol). And with a GIF of one of my favorite moments in any media, ever.
“Decades of hatred will have piled up inside of them. I can’t even begin to imagine" , Astarion says about the spawns in the cells.
And what I find interesting about it, is that this line perfectly encapsulates all his denial in this very moment.
He says it as if he wasn’t like them, as if he didn’t have decades of hatred inside of him. He can’t even begin to imagine how it feels? But, in truth, we know, by this point, that not only he can imagine, but that he feels exactly the same!
As I already explained here, he distances himself from the other spawns; as he did several times before.
He pretends they are not like him. He doesn't want to remember that he used to be just like them, and not so long ago: like his siblings, he wants to see them as if they were nothing, and he can't be as "pathetic" as them... right?"
It’s too hard for him to look at his past and to accept that he wasn’t so different from them. And it’s understandable.
There's another layer of shame here, and it's guilt. Because he was the tool who brought them here, whether he wanted it or not, he's involved in their damnation.
Wouldn't it be easier to make them disappear and pretend they never existed? So that he never has to look at his own shame again, shame of being like them, shame of being the one who doomed them.
Besides, Astarion also widens the gap between himself and the other spawns because he’s lured by the temptation of the ritual, and he knows they’ll be sacrificed if he ascends; so he’s desperate to find any excuse to justify their sacrifices, desperate to numb his guilt by pretending they are hopeless. As if saying: "We can't do anything for them, better make use of them through their destruction".
It’s easier to pretend they’re below him – nothing like him. To pretend there is nothing to expect from them, while he should be at the top. He needs to believe they have nothing in common to make their sacrifice easier to deal with.
But he’s a victim too. He used to be one of the “wretch’s servants” too for decades, and hatred fuels him too, just like it fuels them. As feral, as dangerous, as yearning for revenge.
And it blinds him: his fears, his guilt, his deep need to feel safe. The so called safety of the Ascension blinds him so much it keeps him from relating to the other spawns.
And yet, I tend to believe that, by belittling the other spawns, Astarion belittles himself (unconsciously or not); that’s why he thinks, in this very moment, that only the ritual can make him worthy, put him above them and rid him of his shame: let’s make them disappear so I don’t have to see them again, so I never have to witness my shame, so I never have to see those people who remind me of my own misery, of the slave I used to be.
He used to be one of those “scraps of misery”. But it’s too painful to acknowledge now, now that he’s finally free.
But he will acknowledge all this later on.
The words he says if he doesn’t ascend but if you kill the others spawns are relevant:
If you call the spawns "monsters", he makes it clear you could have said the same about him, and by doing that, he breaks down the wall he built between him and the other spawns: They are alike, there's no great difference between them.
He was just like them, their traumas and violence grow in the same gruesome cradle, and yet, he is not a "monster". Once free, he learned another way, made the best decisions for himself and others, and if he could do it, they could have done the same.
At this point, he makes it clear that all the things he said back in the cells were driven by fear and guilt, a token of his denial as he refused to be compared to them; he could perfectly imagine how it feels to be like them, he just refused to do it because it would have made him too vulnerable in this crucial moment.
This is probably old news to most of you, but I have discovered it for the first time and it struck a chord with me. (For context, I got back to my second playthrough as Yae.)
During the first rest at camp, if you talk to Astarion first out of all the companions (ignoring, for example, the pressing exclamation mark above Lae'zel's head), he's pretty upbeat and eager to engage in a brief discussion before declaring he has a lot to process (oh yes, he does).
Astarion: So, we're resting here? Turning in for the night?
Astarion: Curling up in the dirt and resting is... a little novel.
Astarion: I need some time to think things through. To process this.
Astarion: You sleep. I'll keep watch.
From the PC's point of view it is, of course, bizarre; why would he be so perky in such circumstances? Especially given that just a few hours ago he was hysterically laughing about being doomed to turn into a monster (again). But as the day progressed, he must have come to the conclusion that his current company and circumstances aren't half bad – and compared to what we know about his past, he's right. He's having a break – finally, for the first time in 200 years. He's allowed a moment to (figuratively) breathe. There's no trace of the manipulative persona (with an exception noted below). The "nice, simple plan" hasn't been born yet. This is a short inkling of freedom. Look how his face lights up in some of the screenshots.
And his fairly high spirits in the evening are presented as a clever contrast to other companions' impatience and uncertainty. A subtle way to already set the pale elf apart.
Astarion: Shadowheart seems jumpy. Must not relish the thought of sprouting tentacles.
Astarion: Understandable. Can't say I'm a fan either. It's just hard to join in when all of this feels so new.
If Astarion is talked to second (in the screens above, after Shadowheart), the beginning of the dialogue changes a little to even more blatantly emphasise the difference between his mood and that of the companion in question (he says it directly, he's unable to join the brooding; not to mention he quite frankly exposes himself by stating he's in the middle of savouring new experiences), and the rest of the dialogue goes the same. Astarion offers to keep watch and wishes you sweet dreams, unless you tell him straight you don't trust him (in which case he adopts the manipulative persona to protect himself from the hurtful, even if at this point justified, statement).
However. When I talked first to the other two companions, and only then approached him, I was immediately dismissed:
Astarion: Do you mind? I'm brooding.
Even his body language became closed off: crossed arms and only a brief eye contact before gazing to the side.
I'd like to mention this was the sequence of events I saw on my first playthrough; I hunted exclamation marks, so I first talked to Lae'zel, then to Shadowheart. I still think it's a very "organic" order, encouraged by the game itself. And when Astarion turned my attempt at a conversation down, I assumed he wouldn't talk to me at all at this point, that I probably needed a higher approval or something.
Which, I really want to stress it, makes for different "Astarion experience" for various players. I remember being genuinely surprised when people said he's so talkative from the start. What do you mean? He's so mean from the start, haha (I fell in love with the mean version anyway.) The thing is: both statements are true, after a fashion.
Seeing how it differs depending on the order makes me think of how he'd like to talk to someone else at least for a bit, but he won't reach out himself, not yet. You could say he's that kind of a "lurker" who observes other people's conversation, but isn't quite certain if he can join in without an invitation. He needs to be approached.
But when others seem too occupied with themselves, he must feel othered, excluded. You know, like that kid who's picked last to a sport team during a PE class. Reminded he's not like the rest of the people in the camp. He's not anybody's first choice. The perky mood disperses and (as I imagine) old insecurities or resentment (or both) jump right back in onto the front seat. When Astarion is ignored, even if for legit reasons, his mood is immediately soured. It shows how, in fact, fragile he is in this new situation.
Lae'zel: A monster forms inside us, and you think to be idle?
Lae'zel: A monster forms inside us, yet you waste time with idle chatter.
While a similar thing happens with Lae'zel – if she's talked to second, the dialogue gets more concise with no choices on player's end, and if third, she'll only scold you – the reasons for which she doesn't like to be ignored are different. She thinks the player is wasting their time, not treating the situation seriously, and therefore endangering everyone, herself included. Shadowheart seems the most talkative regardless of order; I haven't tested it with Gale – I like to delay recruiting him for roleplaying reasons – but I imagine he'd be on the talkative side, too; feel free to let me know.
It's just... such a subtle, yet effective way of characterisation. Of hinting early on what each character is like and where their problems might lie. I love how chiselled the beginning of the game feels.
Random thoughts I have about Ascended Astarion because he is an interesting creature.
This is so long I'm so sorry.
On his love for romanced Tav:
Sooo I'm straight up not an AA fan (as far as like, choosing that ending for myself because to me it's sad yk) but I don't think just because it's a tragic ending for Astarion that that means he doesn't in SOME way love Tav - and I honestly don't see him being anywhere near as awful to them as Cazador was to him. (Other spawn, idk, after a few hundred years anything could happen)
Cazador may not have been as bad to his spawn as Vellioth was to his either. Just from what we know, Cazador was impaled for 11 years just for asking for help from a friend, but when Astarion disobeyed Cazador and tried to save a random "darling boy" from being Cazador's next victim he "only" locked him in a tomb for a single year.
In his fucked up vampire brain, maybe Cazador considered that merciful.
Personal example lol:
My parents weren't as bad to me as theirs were to them, but that doesn't mean they didn't fuck me up real good in their own ways. I've also never doubted my dear ole dad loves me, it's just that he sucks at it and he has a really fucked up way of looking at the world that makes his love unhealthy and painful.
So I imagine Astarion's love for Tav becoming obsessive the way it's typically depicted for vampires. (Very Strahd of him)
I imagine if they break it off with him it's only a matter of time before he starts stalking them and setting up situations to make himself look good in front of them without having to be the one to admit he misses them first... and I think that last bit kinda gets to the main flaw I see in Ascended Astarion's love for Tav which is that it is DEEPLY insecure.
On AA's insecurity:
I'm sure most people who read this (ty btw this is already long as shit and I'm not even close to done) have known someone at some point that seems wildly arrogant at first glance only for it to become incredibly obvious the longer you look at them that all of their arrogance comes from a deep place of insecurity and need for validation.
I'm not saying Spawn Astarion isn't insecure as well, he IS, but by the end I think he's coming around and showing a forward momentum for growth that's inspiring. AA on the other hand just fully sinks into the misbelief that he's only worth anything if he is the most powerful person in the room. Only to his horror, actually BEING the most powerful person in the room doesn't soothe all his fear and self doubt - which is weakness, of course. So he needs to remind everyone all the time how big and strong he is and that he doesn't care about anyone or anything as much as they care about him.
He's toxic masculinity the guy and it blows.
He gets PISSED if you mention Cazador to him because it still makes him feel scared/upset and that makes him livid. That he can be so powerful and Cazador can be dead and still hold that much power over him.
Speaking of power:
Obviously there's physical strength and the ability to defend himself bodily against most threats. I think AA is pretty satisfied with his power in this aspect which is why it's what he chooses to focus on.
But there's also the power he said Cazador enjoyed most: "power over people."
This is what he's most afraid of now because in my opinion, I don't think the ascension "fixed" this issue for him the way he wanted it to.
He saw Cazador as all powerful for so long, and whether or not it was true, Astarion saw him as untouchable not only physically but emotionally as well.
That's the thing that hurt most.
That Cazador could make Astarion feel such a depth of turmoil grief and anger all the while looking completely unaffected himself.
We see it when we walk into the room. Cazador calmly insults Astarion and acts like his presence here to kill him is childish and Astarion can't stop himself from taking the bait and getting emotional, because that's just who he is and I'm very willing to bet that Cazador and maybe even the other spawn told him endlessly that this was something to be punished for/wiped out.
(Personal divergence feel free to skip lmao.)
I understand this too. Maybe it's projecting based on my own experience but what else are long ass posts like this for? My dad had a very similar opinion on feelings. The only emotion acceptable to express was anger, and when my youngest brother couldn't understand that, when he was a "crybaby" and acted soft or scared, it wasn't just my dad who would punish him for it. It was us, his siblings, too. I thought I was helping him grow tougher so he wouldn't get targeted so much by my dad.
When I fucked up and couldn't keep my emotions in check I felt like I was too weak to manage them and even though I never thought my dad was right for how he punished us, I didn't realize that I was implicitly accepting that being emotional was in some way deserving of punishment, or at least derision. I had an unexamined value placed on stoicism and intellectualizing rather than feeling and assumed that that value was in some way universally applicable.
Astarion's emotional. He just is. He doesn't think things through all the way and he acts on emotion whether it makes sense or not. 🤷♀️ He can't help but react. He can't help but scream when he's in pain or yell when he's angry or cry when he's sad even if he tries so hard to do it, and he was punished for it EVERY time... Until the nautiloid when Tav has the opportunity to REWARD every tiny morsel of vulnerability he expresses.
But saying yes to the ascension is accepting that he needs to be more like Cazador to be safe, and that means whatever vulnerability he might have started to allow himself needs to go away and never see the light of day again, even if he can.
Nobody can ever have that kind of power over him, the power to make him feel and act on emotion in that way that made him so weak before.
Except romanced Tav already has a power over him: his feelings for them.
And that is his NIGHTMARE.
Which is why the only way he can be at all comfortable maintaining the relationship is by lowering their status in his mind and dominating them, or making them believe that he isn't as invested in their relationship as they are/were.
Ex:
You can go mingle at the party because I LET you, but I'm still watching. You will always be on my leash.
You can sleep with Mizora and I won't be angry because I don't CARE enough to be jealous or upset.
Haha it's a good thing you broke up with me because I would've ruined your pathetic love with my super powerful evil mastermind manipulation. If you thought I actually loved you it's just because of how good at manipulating I am and I'm definitely not devastated because that would mean that you could hurt me and no one can hurt me.
I'm a good owner, but I'm still your owner and you should remember that I could choose to be less good to you if I wanted because I am more powerful than you and you can't hurt me if you're beneath me.
You can have my affection but only if you earn it because I don't want you to have the opportunity to know you could break my heart if you wanted to because that would ruin my image which is the most important thing to me now.
On AA's fear:
Astarion's #1 fear has always been other people having power over him again and despite how powerful the ascension makes him, it doesn't make that fear go away, it makes it WORSE.
Vampire traits are your traits magnified and twisted. That doesn't just apply to things that were once positive. Just like his love becomes obsession, I believe his fear also becomes obsession.
Obsessed with maintaining the appearance of invulnerability. Obsessed with making himself feel confident and powerful 200% of the time and getting rid of anything that keeps him from feeling that way.
Hiding anything that could be perceived as weakness from absolutely everyone at all times.
Spawn Astarion cries when he finally kills Cazador as centuries of catharsis wash over him and overwhelm him. Do I think Ascended Astarion isn't also overcome with relief and emotion at finally being free? I don't actually. I think he is, and won't allow himself to feel it or to cry or to display anything but the facade of what he thinks he SHOULD be feeling in a triumphant moment like this.
He's confused if Dame Aylin kills that stupid fucking wizard why she isn't celebratory and cheerful. So he clearly expects that to be his reaction to killing Cazador.
When he's a spawn, regardless of whatever he expected, he just lets himself feel all the shit he feels and expresses it without worrying about what anyone else in the room will think because that doesn't matter to him right now.
But AA isn't allowed that moment of vulnerability or relief because he is and always will be first and foremost concerned with what other people think of him. He'd rather be seen as evil and cruel but completely untouchable than risk being seen as weak.
The tragedy isn't about Tav, it's about Astarion:
I don't think his ascended ending is his bad ending because he will inevitably be a monster like Cazador or treat Tav horribly. That's what could potentially happen to other people maybe, but that's honestly not even what makes this ending so tragic.
It's tragic for him to spend the rest of his immortal life not being able to let go of his performance. To be trapped forever playing the part of the all powerful, untouchable ascendant. To lose out on the opportunity to grow past the toxic idea that being soft is being weak. To let someone else take care of him when he needs it.
That's why I don't like it (again, for my playthroughs, because I enjoy giving everyone a happy ending if I can. AA ending is fascinating to me as an option to be given though. I think about it a lot, and that's good writing right there.)
Spawn Astarion isn't a perfect good boy with the heart of a saint but I don't want or expect him to be. He is however, finally comfortable in his skin and unlearning all the terrible lessons Cazador gave him. He's accepting himself for better AND for worse. He's just being himself, unapologetically, for everyone to see and I think that's his perfect version of a happy ending.
It’s no secret Astarion hates himself. Like he deals with a lot of insecurities and self loathing. He just puts on an act of self confidence and narcissism to properly play the role of sexy vampire.
But I think a lot of people miss when he Ascends this gets so much worse. Not only does he still think he’s only good for sex and has nothing to offer beyond that. Now he’s a monster, not by force but by choice. He choose to become a monster. Now he’s expanded his act from sexy vampire to evil sexy vampire. He’s playing the villain because that’s what he thinks he is. And as we know he’s really not that great at acting.
I think it’s interesting everyone always talks about seeing through Astarion’s facade but when it comes to him ascending they’re so quick to fall for his act all over again.
There’s the line “if you stay with him he will always see you as degrading yourself” in his post ascension romance scene. A lot of people interpret it at face value as he hates and looks down on Tav. But I think it’s miss understood because he could never hate Tav as much as he hates himself. Infact I’d say he has Tav put up on the highest pedestal. He sees them as the kindest most caring person in the whole world. He adores them and holds them in the highest regard. That’s why them wanting to be with him so much they would even put themselves beneath him is the ultimate degradation. It’s also why he feels he has to turn them because he doesn’t believe there’s any reason they’d choose to stay with him of their own free will while at the same time he can’t bare to loose them. He can’t wrap his head around the idea that you could actually love a monster like him.
If you say you want freedom in the reunion party he panics. Why would you want freedom? To leave him? You want to leave him? Why? When he’s given you the only things he’s good for; luxury and sex. That’s the only reason you choose him in the first place. He’s desperate to make Tav happy. With out Tav he has nothing. He is nothing.
He hides his hurt and insecurities behind that mask of the villain, behind his facade of power and dominance. Under it all he’s still the frightened spawn cowering in the kennels. And there’s no one he’s more desperate to hide this from than Tav lest they realize their mistake of caring for him and leave.
"Astarion, I just want to say, I judged you wrongly. I'm sorry."
"Really? And how - specifically- have you misjudged my fine character?"
"You aren't actually insufferably randy, you're just insufferable."
I find this compelling banter for a few reasons and I wanna talk about one thing in particular.
This dialogue is triggered after you and Astarion make things "official". You've discussed his little plan, how he feels now, and that you two are continuing into a relationship without sex for the time being.
Theoretically, nothing has changed, at least outwardly in a way we as the player can see.
You two were probably sharing a tent occasionally (or frequently) before the confession. Which is known, since everyone comments. Wyll specifically takes it upon himself to tell you to watch your heart in front of Astarion. So they already know that's a thing.
The other companions weren't privy to the confession, or wouldn't be, seeing as it was probably discussed rather privately.
So why is Wyll recognizing Astarion has changed??
After Cazador, Astarion has proven he can make the right choice and stick by his lover, when he recognizes how badly he's misjudged him then it makes sense. But why here?
If it were just the pair acting romantically or flirty towards eachother he wouldn't have anything to add. What's to add? He already told you to watch yourself and not get hurt and the two have presumably been doing those things anyway.
Why does he suddenly recognize that Astarion isn't motivated by sex any longer?
Why is he now recognizing that Astarion isn't secretly a fiendish letch intrested in banging anything with a pulse? Who thus far he'd seen as some jerk playing with his friends heart who could not be trusted cause sex was obviously all he wanted.
What occurred that shifted that for him?
If it was them ceasing to share a tent wouldn't that make him think things were ending instead of advancing?
If they start sharing a tent more or to the same degree he would have no idea a thing had changed. Wouldn't know they are cuddling and enjoying eachothers company instead of just fucking.
And only two other companions make statements that would indicate they've also noticed a shift.
Karlach and Gale both make mention of the fact they can see something different, that they see the genuine affection that is now being displayed as obviously different from the prior displays. That they see a change in Astarion specifically.
What is it they are seeing that is making this a profound enough realization that they feel the need to both offer compliment and apologize to Astarion?
For the specific three who comment on your relationship change, I really want to know HOW they know. (I'm aware it's all HC but I love when you guys take off on your rants about your theories!)
So Gale is the one who comes closest to the same level of acknowledgement as Wyll. He says:
Gale: "I fear I've been rather hasty to judge you, Astarion."
Gale: "One heartbreak was quite enough for me, but to experience it as many times as you have must change a person."
Astarion: "Thank you, Gale. Let us both hope that broken hearts are a thing of the past."
And it's more just acknowledging that he does see the closeness developing, and is impressed enough that he feels the need to openly relate and offer that he misjudged Astarion's intentions towards you.
Karlach simply asks a question, and Astarion plays it off more than anything. But it's clear she's seeing something change between you two and she's curious if it's even possible that he could have real feelings.
Karlach: "Sorry if this is rude, but... can vampires fall in love?"
Astarion: "What a preposterous question. Vampires can do anything you can do, and a damn sight better."
Karlach: "Sunbathe? Swim?"
Astarion: "All right, there are a few limited exceptions."
Karlach: "Good to know love is on the table though."
Astarion: "It is. Though if the table is laden with good wine and meat, love is often left to rot with the salad leaves."
Shadowheart and Lae'zel hardly care. In fact Lae'zel is just bugged that you two are apparently always acting romantic and how it's a bane on the purpose of the adventure. (Tho Lae'zels is pretty funny)
Lae'zel: "The more I learn of this plane, Astarion, the more I believe 'love' is its greatest disease."
Astarion: "Oh, I don't know. The screaming fever is pretty bad."
Plus she does essentially acknowledge that you're relationship is obnoxious and probably obvious.
So is that it? Is it just more obvious?
Immediately after the man states he needs to figure out how to be intimate and do any of the things being sweet on someone entails, does he turn around and start doing the opposite?
Yes he does.
And I think he flaunts it outloud.
Proud to have you as his in a way he can't keep to himself. Safe in a way he's never felt. Dropping his walls and showing his sillier, softer, less polished and perfect him, his real him, openly for all to see, not just privately for you.
So much so that it hits the guy who has thus far been the most openly suspicious towards Astarion with such impact that he feels the need to apologize. Even if he does still admit he doesn't much like him personally at the end, he admits he was wrong, and his sorry sounds entirely sincere.
Wyll is straight up mean to the man in Act 1 and the very first sign he is changing his mind comes from a conversation being had about a very pesronal and private decision he would know nothing about.
Unless he can see so clearly what is happening that even his bias can't deny that he judged Astarion poorly.
Which honestly... he didn't. He read the situation right on the surface, since then it had been a plan, and he called it out honestly. Then it changed and he accepted and stated that. It suits his character and opens the door for him to start trusting Astarion himself, which thus far he doesn't seem to.
And I love the idea that this shift in safety for Astarion becomes the first small shift for the two from leery campmates to more like a friend.
That what he's found gives him the foundation and security to substantially shift into himself and away from the mask with EVERYONE. Not just you.
It shows for the first time how integral that support is for him to start changing his life into something he wants it to be and how eager he is to make it so.
He doesn't take his time or come to it slowly.
Astarion throws himself into who he wants to try and be the moment he feels even the barest hint of safe and it's obvious even to his worst critic and I absolutely adore that.
There's a lot of misinformation surrounding this vampire bride fan theory. As someone who has the book the theory allegedly comes from, I want to provide important context that's always left out in posts about it.
Note: It's fine if you like this headcanon and want to use it for your own RP. But posts about this headcanon tend to present it as a factual and canon concept. I want people to have all the information so that they're fully informed when they decide to believe in it or not. There's a lot of evidence that it isn't canon. Everyone is welcome to see their character how they like. No one is saying you can't have fun. The problem is misinformation.
First, the 2e book this theory stems from (Van Richten's Guide to Vampires) is from 1991. That's over 30 years and three editions of DnD ago. None of this lore has been mentioned in the current edition of DnD, 5e, as far as I've seen. It didn't even appear in Curse of Strahd, where it would have fit in perfectly. DnD staff have officially said that each edition of DnD is its own canon. They don't want fans to need archaic sourcebooks to understand the current lore.
"The current edition of the D&D roleplaying game has its own canon, as does every other expression of D&D… Every edition of the roleplaying game has its own canon as well. In other words, something that might have been treated as canonical in one edition is not necessarily canonical in another…we don’t want DMs or players to feel like they must read a novel, play a video game, or buy a third-edition sourcebook to enjoy our game and get the most out of our current line of products."
Now, I'm not saying that every edition of DnD is completely different and doesn't draw from older versions. But it's clear that DnD staff don't want old sourcebooks to be needed to understand current products. That's why it's significant that vampire bride lore has not shown up again in a decade of 5e. There is an updated 2021 version of the Van Richten book: Van Richten's Guide to Ravenloft. This 5e version still has no mention of vampire bride lore.
Ravenloft is also an entirely different campaign setting from the Forgotten Realms, which is where BG3 takes place. Their lore is not necessarily interchangeable. You cannot indiscriminately copy paste lore from different worlds.
While BG3 doesn't follow DnD 5e lore 100%: One can't use a 2e sourcebook to argue the vampire bride theory is true, and also say sourcebooks aren't important because BG3 is its own property.
Even if we accept what is in the 1991 Van Richten's Guide to Vampires:
The Dark Kiss ritual states that the sire vampire's age must be AT LEAST twice Astarion's vampire age.
"Creating a bride or groom, although seemingly a simple process, requires an exhausting exercise of much power by the creating
vampire. For this reason, only vampires of advanced age and capability can even assay this procedure. A bride or groom can be created only by a vampire of age category Ancient or greater, and not even all of those are capable of doing so." (pg 71)
The Ancient vampire age category starts at 400 years (pg 13). Astarion has been a vampire spawn for 200 years and an ascended vampire for barely any time at all.
If one argues Astarion can do this ritual anyway because he's a special ascended vampire… Well, the book's ritual is about normal vampires. If AA is this unique, it can be easily argued that he can't do the ritual and make a vampire bride, because he's not a normal vampire. This logic can be applied both ways. The idea behind becoming an ascended vampire is that things which affect a normal vampire won't affect him anymore. Not to mention, Astarion himself says it will take more time for him to come into his full power. So how can he be as powerful as an ancient vampire already? Alternatively: if he is this powerful and special, who says he can't compel and control a Vampire Bride anyway?
The book also describes the sire losing lots of blood to the bride, to the point that the sire is weakened. Astarion gives us "just one drop" and shows no sign of being weakened after turning us. Nor do we see evidence of a feeding frenzy.
"The vampire opens a gash in its own flesh—often in its throat—and holds the subject’s mouth to the wound. As the burning draught that is the vampire’s blood gushes into the subject’s mouth, the primitive feeding instinct is triggered, and she sucks hungrily at the wound, enraptured. With the first taste of the blood, the subject is possessed of great and frenzied strength, and will use it to prevent the vampire from separating her from the fountain of wonder that is its bleeding wound. It is at this point that the creator-vampire’s strength is most sorely tested. He is weakened by his own blood loss." (pg 72)
The vampire bride ritual requires the sire to make 3 bites. I believe this entire theory started because someone thought they saw 3 bites. The dev notes for the supposed first bite calls it a kiss on the neck. With some hairstyles, you can see there is no bite mark or blood on Tav's neck when he kisses the neck. There are bite marks and blood on Tav's wrist or neck later in the same scene, after the choice for Astarion to be gentle or make it hurt. So, there is only a maximum of 2 bites.
There's also no evidence of any telepathic bond post-tadpole in the game during the epilogue.
"One of the reasons “married vampires” are so difficult to defeat is that a vampire and its bride share a telepathic communication that has a range measured in miles. Regardless of intervening terrain or obstacles, the two vampires can communicate instantly and silently as if they were speaking together." (pg 74)
Even if we accept the outdated 2e lore of vampire brides, there's numerous ways that the Dark Kiss ritual in the sourcebook doesn't match what happens when AA turns Tav or Durge. Depending on how you count the bites, one can argue that nothing from the ritual matches what's in the game!
Great addition by @/nicsnort: "Let us also not forget that the very nature of necromancy and undeath changed between 2e and 5e due to the Spellplague and the destruction of the Negative Energy Plane. So, not only is the canon of the Bride ritual outdated, but this ritual very well may not work anymore for even 400+-year-old vampires because magic itself is different!"
This is without even talking about how something so major which goes against everything we're told about master-spawn relationships in the game... would have been clearly discussed in the actual game.
On the topic of what's in the actual game: AA himself and Karlach explicitly say the turned player is a spawn. Other companions express concern about the romance post-ascension. Just because the player can walk in the sun doesn't mean they are not a vampire spawn. Cazador gives some of his spawn the ability to teleport, and the companions express surprise. Yet no one denies they are still vampire spawn.
I hope this post gives you extra context on the vampire bride theory. Overall, it's clear that this is old lore which is not canon to the current edition of DnD. Whether you think Larian decided to apply it to BG3 or not, at least now that belief will be fully informed.
If this post was useful or interesting to you, please reblog so more people can see it! I've made updates to it a few times, so always check my original post for the latest version.
Okay, so you need to grill Halsin about Moonrise Towers before completing the Grove quest. Trust me. Reserved, Veteran Halsin shines here, and not just in lore, but in tone, voice, and delivery.
Persistent players are rewarded. Why? Because this choice mirrors his worldview: nature favors the bold. Druids may serve balance, but they do intervene: to heal, guide, correct. They act as the gods’ extensions, grounded in the world, doing what the divine cannot.
If you press Halsin in the dungeons, his delivery subtly shifts. A line spoken slower. A pause heavier than the rest. It’s nuanced but intentional. I haven’t seen many people break it down, so I started looking closer. And let me tell you—the payoff? So, so worth it.
Halsin isn’t just a big guy with kind eyes and nice... you know what.
He’s a man who’s lived through unimaginable loss and chose hope over hatred. Where others would’ve turned cruel or cynical (which, let’s be real, is exactly what happens to other characters in this story), he rebuilt himself; unlearned the unhealthy habits that once numbed his sorrow—with little to no support—and still moved forward. Alone. Quietly. With trauma clinging like shadowy tendrils, puncturing his heavy heart. You can feel the weight of someone who has lived through the unimaginable… and still chooses not bitterness, not vengeance, but hope. And you only see that if you poke the bear a little. If you challenge him. Which, again, ties directly into his worldview, nature respects boldness. He respects boldness.
And yet, he stands tall. He heals. He cares.
There’s a glance, a distant stare, that pause in his voice when he speaks of the past. Not dramatic but devastatingly quiet. It’s grief that’s settled into the bones. It’s earned wisdom. And it hits harder than anything shouted.
He carries a cruel burden, but he won't break.
That far-off stare as he speaks about the past. That tight breath before he continues, like he’s had to learn how to speak around the ache. That's what makes it brutal. It’s the kind of grief that isn’t fresh anymore, but still lives in the bones. A grief he’s chosen not to let define him.
It kills you as the player.
This Act 1 exchange reveals his gravitas, his inner strength, and that beautifully understated: 13 Intelligence. He feels more in tune with the early access experience here than almost anywhere else in the game: mature, serious, vulnerable—knowing only loss and still, choosing to do good.
And that?
That’s a kind of heroism that hits different.
