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Itaewon class - sortighatchats

This kdrama is just too good not to sort. See @sortinghatchats and @wisteria-lodge for explanation of the sorting system. Beware of spoilers.

Itaweon class is a revenge story at its core about an underdog who does what feels right, steps up for his morals—and loses everything as a consequence. But it's also very heart-warming, idealistic, with power of friendship and lots of comfort scenes.

Seroy Pak is such a shining little lion. The whole story is basically built around him being so stubborn about his morals that he defies the big bad - the chairman of the ruling food company, his father's boss, the guy everyone bows down to. Instead of doing the smart thing, the survival thing, Seroy does the feel right thing—he fights back. At every. Damn. Step. Of. The. Way.

Many many characters note how stupid that is. How much his life would have been easier if he just bowed down, knelt, begged, apologised. Played by the rules. But Seroy never does, his morals and convictions always unscathed, even if the rest of his life gets freaking wrecked for it.

Seroy beats up the school bully even the teachers are afraid of, gets himself kicked out of high school, loses his father his job. And his dad says: I'm proud of you. That's a burned and broken lion right there. "I just want you to hold your head high and live confidently how I never managed." Geez, thanks for the advice.

#itaewon class #kdrama #sortinghatchats #Jang Geun-soo #Park Sae-ro-yi #Jo Yi-seo #Oh Soo-ah #analysis #lion badger #snake snake #bird badger

bird primary (in process of building system) + badger secondary

Hi! It’s been a while since I first took the shc quiz, and in retaking it recently I’ve had an unfortunate bit of identity crisis </3 Originally, I was Double Snake but now I’m sincerely doubting my primary. I was given Lion by the quiz, but I don’t think I’m full Lion as I don’t exactly have a “cause,” I’m just passionate about what I want (and what I want tends to be very self-focused and more selfish than I’d think of when I think Lion).

Well, you very well might be a Glory Hound Lion. :) It’s also possible that you’re sort of between causes - or morally bored - or a Fay Lion with a non-traditional definition of “good” and “bad.” Let’s see what we’ve got.

But I don’t want to influence your judgement too much, so I’ll get into just talking about myself :)

I’ve always been a very quiet person, and when I was younger I know it was because I had a fear of authority figures and disappointing them, whether it was my parents, a teacher, a coach, or anyone else. I still remember the one time I got told off in kindergarten for crouching in the door to the hallway to look at a caterpillar. Vividly.

Fear of authority figures can definitely be a human thing, but it does hit external primaries (Badger and Bird) the hardest.

Now, I’m still a quiet person though I think that’s mostly the social anxiety. I’d like to think I can hold a conversation if someone else starts it, but I’m very bad at initiating them unless I have a specific reason to. I can’t just go up to someone and start small talk, I’d die inside.

There might be a little Burning going on with your secondary. This is a very hopeless-sounding way of conceptualizing a pretty normal, neutral statement. “I initiate conversations when I have something I want to talk about.” Yeah! That’s how it works. “Nice weather we’re having” is not a start to a conversation, it is a phrase that means “I recognize you as a member of my social group and we are not enemies.”

I’m at the point in my life where I’ve just started college, so the biggest decision in my life right now is choosing a major. I don’t know what I want to do after, only that I want it to be fulfilling. I don’t know if I could handle something that felt like a drag. However, my idea of ‘fulfilling’ has a lot to it. I want a job where it feels like I’m doing something that’s greater than myself

Okay, definitely getting some Idealist primary (Bird or Lion) here.

or something that won’t cause me to remain stagnant. I want to be able to grow in my job in some way and consistently gain new experiences—if it’s boring or too routine, I’ll hate myself for continuing in it.

I’m thinking you might have an improvisational secondary. Maybe Snake - Snake especially loves new people, new experiences.

For example, for a few months last year my only criteria was that I wanted to be able to travel a lot or live in a new place.

That’s honestly a really great place to start looking. A lot of people absolutely do not want jobs that require a lot of travel.

I’d also like to do something I want to do, but logically I know that’s not sustainable. Since I was seven or eight, I’ve wanted to be an author and that dream hasn’t really faded but realistically, I am not going to do that. The most I’d do would be minor in creative writing so I could have something creatively fulfilling as well as mentally fulfilling to occupy my time.

Every single author. Every single one of them. Had a day job of some kind before they were able to make it their full-time job. (Unless they were independently wealthy.) It’s common for even *successful* writers to have another thing they do, because I’ve been there, and putting pressure on your art to be the only thing that sustains you is pretty intense and can lead to burn out.

So when I hear “I want to be an author but that’s not LOGICAL, that’s not REALISTIC,” number one thing I hear is Bird primary. “I want this, but my system says no, and so that’s what I’m going with.”

And I’m… lightly suggesting… that it’s possible your system may be a little rigid, a little black and white. Maybe it could be cool to be a flight attendant, or pharmaceutical rep, or event coordinator and write a book on the side.

The real reason I’m torn though is because I also put a lot of emphasis on what other people want me to do.

This is a person thing, but it hits External Primaries hardest. I’m starting to like Bird for you.

My mom wants me to go into computer science because she wants me to get a good, well-paying job out of college and has faith that I’ll be good at it. I’ve taken my first computer science class this year, and while she’s right that I am good at it at this level, I’m not sure if I will continue to be. I’ve been enjoying the challenge of a new subject so far, but I don’t know if this is what I want to tie myself to for the rest of my life. I do think I would be willing to, though. Like I said, I did enjoy the challenge.

You’re sounding a little black-and-white again. You do not have to “tie yourself” to computer science for your whole life if you major in it in college. You will almost certainly not have the same job your whole life. I’m not sure that’s even possible anymore. There is a high level of probability that at some point you will do a job that does not currently exist, just because that’s the way the world works.

If you like computer science now, great. If you fall out of love with it - maybe it gets predictable and boring - also fine. You’ll have experience, and be able to move sideways to something that suits the person you are in five years a little better.

But I also have put an unreasonable amount of weight on what my English teacher from last year said to me when she told me I was a good writer and wanted to see me go into the arts in some way. And I kind of want that too but again, I also want a job that will make me money. I am not going to spend 4 years at a college just to get an English degree or something like that. So essentially, I still don’t know what I want to do. I’m working on it, but I want it to be my own decision at the end of the day.

This sounds like a Bird primary decision making process to me. “My mom says x, my English teacher says y, the song “What Do You Do With a B.A. in English” from Avenue Q says z. I am trying to synthesize all of these into a workable model of the world.” (And I’m running into a few problems, because I want one option to be Objectively Correct, and another Objectively Incorrect.)

You want a job that’s creatively/emotionally fulfilling, allows for a lot of travel (and upward mobility within an organization?) and makes a lot of money right out of college. That’s a slightly tall order. But, you’re at college, and one of the functions of college is to sort yourself out, figure out who you are when you’re not part of your school/family/community. So if you are a Bird, and it sounds like you’re at a liberal arts school, you’re at the right place to try out a lot of things. And remember, you can put individual relevant *classes* that you’ve taken on your resume as well, not just your major.

What I do know is that the most emotionally and mentally fulfilling thing I’ve ever done was stage manage in high school—I was head stage manager my senior year, and I had to somewhat build the position from the ground up since, as a result of COVID, there was no one left who’d stage managed in person. The amount of pride I felt at seeing the fall show was unmatched, and it did help that my director read out a series of acknowledgments that included me at the end of the final show :) That moment on stage after the bows is what comes to mind first when I’m asked to think of my happiest memory, and I think it’s only a little bit due to recency bias.

So you like being part of, and ORGANIZING a team. That’s very relevant information. (Badger secondary? Bird secondary? Your ask has been very primary focused so far.)

I am not, by the way, even considering becoming a theater major. That sounds like a recipe for disaster equal to an English major.

Okay, hypothetically. Thought experiment. (I’m absolutely not saying you do this.) But hypothetically, you major in theater. You participate in/stage manage 6-8 shows during your college career. Put that on your resume. If I’m a hiring manager, what does that tell me? That you’re organized and detail orientated. You work well with other people, are good at managing a team, have a strong work ethic. You probably are decently familiar with fundraising/advertising/permit wrangling. You’re a good abstract/outside the box thinker. You’re good at putting on presentations. Probably a good public speaker. Work well under pressure. Those are all pretty good, and honestly very flexible job skills.

A surprising amount of the people I know in politics, business, non-profits, start-ups and general entrepreneur stuff actually have some kind of performing-arts background. My point is not that you should major in theater, or even minor in theater, my point is this is black-and-white thinking again. Once you leave school it’s not going to be ‘plug in A, B comes out.’ In every industry I’ve been in, or been adjacent to, it’s much more fluid than that. There’s also a lot more learning on the job than I expected there would be. You’re also allowed to have side gigs, and hobbies as an adult.

(it’s possible extremely specialized might work slightly differently. But the dentists and optometrists I know also come from like, idk. Dentist/optometrist *families?*)

The most difficult moments in my life, I’ve realized, have been when I’ve felt unfulfilled. I have to be stimulated enough to be challenged or I will quickly grow unmotivated, lethargic, and genuinely depressed. Stimulation for me can come in the forms of relationships, school work, extracurriculars, or creative inspiration. As long as one of those things is interesting to me and taking up enough of my time, I find that my mental state is significantly better. This past semester, for example, I did at a community college so I could transfer to my current one in the spring, and the classes were so painfully easy that I found myself napping in almost all of my free time and doing less than nothing except when I had to. I also withdrew from my friends because at that point, talking to them was too much effort. If that seems like a contradiction, it is.

It sounds like you might actually have just been depressed. It also sounds very possible that you’re some flavor of neurodivergent, and under-stimulation can absolutely be the kiss of death if that’s the case. As Sherlock Holmes puts it, “I have a curious constitution. I never remember feeling tired by work, though idleness exhausts me completely.”

Talking to [my friends] would likely have helped, but I couldn’t be bothered. Being very alone, very bored, and incredibly under stimulated have led to some of my worst mental health periods—and I use this as an example because it feels very telling and also because I don’t want to go too terribly dark, not because it’s necessarily the worst I’ve ever felt, if that makes sense. Losing close friends also affects me poorly.

I don’t have much data about how you actually solve problems, so I’m not sure about your secondary. There are a lot of mentions of friends, being part of a group, and not liking when that isn’t the case? But you could just be a social version of any of the primaries.

I don’t make friends easily, so I only have two very memorable losses. The first explained the situation to me afterwards and apologized, and it very much wasn’t her fault. But for whatever reason, I still can’t get all the way over it. It was a very online thing, so I remember what I saw her and the people she left me for say. We used to be about as close to best friends as you could get in two years or so, but we don’t really talk now at all. We’re cordial, but the last time we spoke was also in November, which as of writing this was around three months ago.

Interesting. You had a falling out with a friend, and she apologized for the situation and explained why she behaved badly? Now, it’s interesting that you want the fact that there’s a sensible explanation to wipe out all the emotion associated with the friend break up (or think that it should wipe out the emotion associated with the friend break up…) That way of seeing the world - emotions are unreliable, I want to be able to logic myself into feeling however I want to feel… that’s extremely Bird primary.

The second one also really messed me up, and I’m still bitter and conflicted about it. I know there should be no timeline on moving on, but six months to still be periodically obsessing over it seems excessive to me personally.

That one was a bit more my fault, but it certainly wasn’t entirely and every so often I get irrationally angry that this friend didn’t give me the time to think and resolve everything properly. I don’t know exactly where we stand since it was kind of a mutual breaking off of the friendship, but it wasn’t really as clean as that and I’d thought we’d eventually talk about it again, but we haven’t. I’m not the one who made the final call, so I’m not going to reach out again first either.

This is also very Bird primary to me. It’s not so much that the friendship ended that bothered you, it’s that you haven’t been able to make sense of why it ended, and you low-key resent this friend not giving you a logical, cohesive explanation.

I also ended up asking the first friend after a few weeks whether or not it had been at all my fault when they’d broken off the friendship just to reassure myself that the feelings brought up by the second friend (i.e. I was a toxic and terrible friend) weren’t true. I knew it hadn’t been, and she told me again that it hadn’t been. But it had felt like a pattern, so I had to check.

Checking in with an outside source to confirm your idea of yourself actually seems like a very Badger secondary move.

Anyway.

I think most of all I want to be loved and appreciated for who I am. But not for what I do.

Yeah, that’s the dream. To be loved because you’re a person, and not because you’re a tool/trophy/symbol.

I want to be loved by those I love and admired by my peers, but not for being able to appear more competent than I am, if that makes sense. I do, however, want to be the best in whatever I do, but being listed or seen as among the best will work in a pinch.

I see a little of what made the quiz give you Lion. I don’t think you are, but this fantasy sounds very young Lion. I want to be seen as the best, but the best at what… is less important. There’s also a recurring theme of an intense need for external validation - from your mom, your teachers, your director, even in your fantasy here, it’s important that you’re listed as “best” on some kind of external list. I suspect this might be a young Bird thing, but it’s a thing to keep an eye on, because that’s a dangerous sort of drug.

That seems contradictory to my desire not to be put on a pedestal, but that’s different in my mind. I don’t want to be seen as unreachable. And those I love seeing me for what I do before who I am hurts just a bit.

I think I’m liking Badger secondary for you, if only because a big part of this fantasy is the desire to be *relatable*

Finally, because I fear this is getting too long, family dynamics. I grew up Christian and am not anymore, which probably says a lot already.

… I mean, I’d love if you went into why. Intense relationship with religion is often a marker of Bird primary, but there are lots of reason to step away from religion, and they all say a lot about you.

My mom and dad both have high expectations of me—which you might have already been able to gather—but they absolutely love me. I suspect my dad wants me to do what will make me happy first and foremost, but I think my mom, though she wants the same, believes that success will bring me happiness. She’s not entirely wrong, in fairness.

I also have a younger sister!! If I am a Snake primary, she is the one person right now who I’d call my inner circle. She’s not always the best person and I’ve sided against her when it’s come to some of her choices, but I know she’s trying and I truly don’t think there’s anything she could do to make me stop loving her. That’s not exactly a rousing endorsement I know, but deep down she really is the sweetest and loveliest person I know (I suspect Badger primary for her btw). I really am so lucky to have her as my sister and I know she feels the same, and for that reason I’m always slightly worried she’ll be bitter if she’s ever compared to me, and I don’t want that for her at all.

If there’s a need for glory, it’s coming from your primary and not your secondary. I don’t know 100% about your secondary, but with the evidence I have I’m going to say that Badger is most likely. You want approval, but you don’t want the spotlight.

Anyway! Thank you so much for reading through all of this if/when you do, I hope it wasn’t too much to work with but was enough to glean an understanding of Me. I look forward to seeing what you have to say about it :)

I really, really enjoyed reading and going through this.

#submission #shc #sortinghatchats #sortme #wisteria sorts #bird badger #bird primary #badger secondary #black and white bird

I was on my third re-watch of the drama Start-Up and thought it’d be fun to sort the characters w/ Sorting Hat Chats’ system--it’s such an interesting way to build/disseminate fictional characters. There are a lot of characters in this drama, but I’ll just be sorting the main and second leads. It’s a long read, though. (Minor spoilers ahead!)

1) Main female lead, Seo Dalmi

(Side note: Dalmi is probably one of my favorite K-drama characters to date because she knows what she wants and gets after it with everything she’s got.)

I think she has a Snake primary. A lot of her character-defining actions are driven by the desire to help her most-beloved individuals or people in the world who remind her of those individuals. She refuses to leave her father when her parents divorce, because she thinks it’d be tantamount to betrayal. Early in the show, Dalmi’s grandmother tells Han Jipyeong that Dalmi got into a good university--which is extremely difficult to do in Korea--but when Dalmi’s grandmother sold her hot dog shop to pay for Dalmi’s tuition, Dalmi promptly dropped out and worked until she could buy her grandmother a food truck. She talks about being motivated to create a seeing-eye app and self-driving cars because she wants to help vision-impaired individuals like her grandmother, and to ensure accidents like the one that killed her father wouldn’t happen to other people. Dalmi’s projects are undoubtedly selfless, but they’re inspired by her own special people. I think this is also why she’s so torn-up after finding out the letter she thought were from Nam Dosan were actually from Jipyeong--her inspiration and sense of purpose is so strongly drawn from the individuals she holds dear, finding out a major source of her inspiration was attributed to the wrong person is earth-shattering for her in a way it probably wouldn’t be for a non-Snake primary.

I went between Lion and Badger a lot for Dalmi’s secondary. She’s relentless to the point of desperation, but how much of that is because she’s so hellbent on making her start-up(s) work? She overtly dislikes having to lie, and people around her (primarily the two male leads) seem to be drawn to her for her explicit drive and belief in herself.

But ultimately, I think she’s a Badger secondary. Although Dalmi bluffs a lot without feeling uncomfortable about doing so, she’s pretty bad at it, with a lot of post-bluff panic that I feel like Lion secondaries wouldn’t have. Instead, we see her (happily) grinding a lot: picking up books on management and start-ups, putting in her best efforts at her temp job, staying up late with Dosan when the other team members take a break, asking Jipyeong a million questions all at once over the course of a night. We also see her doing a lot of that Badger-style “just show up” thing in her relationships, like bringing Jipyeong a specific trash bag and pine nut noodles after he mentions them. A pivotal point in the show--when Dalmi walks miles of country roads to find Dosan--also seems Badger-y to me.

2) Main male lead, Nam Dosan

Originally posted by seoul-leaf

Dosan is another favorite K-drama character! Actually, he’s probably my favorite K-drama first male lead of all time, mostly because the bar is so low. But anyway...

I thought Dosan was a Snake primary like Dalmi because he’s so devoted to her and inspired by her, but I noticed that pre-Dalmi, he didn’t really have such special individuals and was pretty content living that way. He cares a lot about his parents and friends, as well as the people Dalmi cares about, but he doesn’t live and die for them the way Dalmi or other Snake primary characters do. I also considered Badger and Lion because he’s shown to be very kind to strangers for no apparent reason, to the point that his parents dub him “Living Buddha.” He impulsively attends the event Dalmi invited him to, seemingly just because he feels like it’d be the nice thing to do. When Dosan visibly pulls ahead of his peers--whether figuratively in an academic way or literally on a running track--he purposely falls behind to protect their feelings. Never to the point of handicapping himself, but just enough that they feel better...again, for no apparent reason.

But when I looked at Dosan some more, I decided that he’s an ever-elusive Bird primary. To outsiders, his way of doing things might seem wonky, but he has a strong internal logic for his actions. When he gets angry, he systematically begins knitting. When he hears people talking about blood types and personality, he launches into a thorough explanation (involving the brain, bloodflow, etc.) of why the two can’t be linked, seemingly with the expectation that if he explains, they’ll see why he’s right and agree. On a more serious note, Dosan has a really clear idea of how he fell for Dalmi, tracing it back through specific scenes: the fireworks he saw on the night they met, quotes from the letter Jipyeong showed him, the trust she has in his hands. Of course, much of this might stem from cinematic convenience, but I think it lends itself to character-building as well. (We don’t get this consciously thematic reminiscence from the other leads, after all.)

His secondary was easy, because Dosan is as Badger secondary as it gets. He liked coding and got genius-level good at it, shows up for his friends when things get rough (Chulsan’s virus debacle), and conveys his affection through diligent work (fixing the bug in their hackathon product and creating an entire app for Dalmi).

Most importantly, he cares a lot about his “integrity of method.” Dosan won a major math competition as a middle schooler competing against high schoolers, but he always felt that he didn’t deserve the win because he accidentally saw the start of a fellow competitor’s solution for a problem he was stuck on and that helped him solve the problem. Others have noted that the first line of someone else’s solution isn’t enough for the average person to solve a math competition problem--you still have to be an incredible mathematician to do that. And who’s to say that Dosan wouldn’t have solved the math problem himself eventually, or that he would’ve won with the other problems he’d already solved correctly? But Dosan doesn’t care about that, because he thinks there’s a proper way to win and he didn’t do it.

(Side note, but Dosan and I have the same sorting! I almost never see Bird Badgers in media so this was fun.)

3) Second female lead, Won Injae

The heart rendering thing about Injae is that she’s a Loyalist primary like her sister Dalmi, but while Dalmi’s primary shines with happy fulfillment, Injae’s not doing great and probably hasn’t been doing great since their parents’ divorce.

Dalmi is healthy and happy because, while she evidently values herself a lot, she also has people around her to dote on--namely, her grandmother, father, and Dosan. (She even doted on Dosan when he didn’t exist as a real person to her!) We see by the show’s ending that Injae is actually just as family-oriented as Dalmi, but she hasn’t had any family to orient herself toward for a long time. Injae tells Dalmi that going with their mother when she remarried a wealthy man would’ve been the smarter move, yet Injae views their mother’s “money obsession” with contempt. She doesn’t love her patronizing stepdad or unintelligent stepbrother either, and since she doesn’t have friends (just colleagues), Injae ends up being lost for a long time.

I thought Injae might be a Snake primary like her sister, but after thinking more I decided that she’s a Badger primary. Kind of an unexpected example of one, considering how cold she is. But I noticed that her salvation comes in the form of reconnecting with her family--Dalmi, their mother, and their grandmother--and choosing to go back to her original surname, “Seo of the Dalseong Seo clan.” (Side note: I don’t even understand Loyalist primaries all that well but that scene made me bawl!!)

While Dalmi is loyal to her inner circle individually, Injae values it for being her small community. She is also loyal to certain ways of living--which is why she chose to go with her mother’s money, which would allow her to continue attending private school and school trips, rather than her father’s uncertain entrepreneurship (as Dalmi does). Injae is very self-focused, but it doesn’t come from a place of wanting to survive as herself. She wants to prove that she can win when she plays by the start-up community’s rules.

Like Dalmi, Injae’s secondary was difficult for me to figure out, but in reverse. Where Dalmi is an obvious hard driver, Injae moves like a silent knife. She doesn’t have issues with lying to get what she wants, as with her application to Sandbox. She also leads her start-up team with quiet authority that’s based on her previous CEO experience and socializes with strangers easily. Ultimately, I think she’s a Bird secondary. Injae relies a lot on her prior knowledge and has the detached propensity to think of everything (including people) as discrete tools. She’s also not great at thinking beyond her established framework, which alarms her mentor when she’s so blasé about being egged by laborers that her startup’s software would displace. Injae has no interest in building communities, inspiring others, or shifting her stance to new opportunities. Girl’s got no friends or improv skills! But she’s very invested in being an excellent CEO, and knows what tools she needs for that, as well as how to use them.

4) Second male lead, Han Jipyeong

Originally posted by kimkim-jipy

Ahh...Jipyeong. He reminds me of some of the kids I’ve tutored. But moving on:

His primary was also hard to discern, but for him it’s because he’s so burnt. Jipyeong doesn’t know what he wants for like two-thirds of the show and even then it takes him another few episodes to really figure things out.

But like Injae, his salvation comes in the form of being together with family. Jipyeong initially gets involved with Dalmi’s start-up because he wants to repay her grandmother, and then he continues his involvement because he develops a crush on Dalmi. That looks Snake-y, but when I look at his happiest moments, it’s when he’s held gently within a group, whether that’s when he’s playing Go-Stop with the Samsan Tech crew or making jeon with Dalmi’s family. When I look at what he longs for, it’s also community. There’s a scene where the young Jipyeong looks longingly at a TV showing a happy family. I think Dalmi’s grandmother had such a strong effect on him because her actions of kindness toward him, a literal stranger, are what he wishes he could do but can’t. Eventually, we see him finally getting to that point himself, when he agrees to invest in a start-up with little profit potential but large probable social impact for orphans like himself. Jipyeong looks his happiest when he’s with a family or helping a community--that feels like a Badger primary to me.

His secondary is really easy, though. Jipyeong is an obvious Lion secondary: happiest when doling out blunt truths, willing to run over social conventions to get what he wants, and almost pugnaciously earnest. I suspect this secondary is what his character so appealing to audiences as a love interest--it’s far flashier than Dosan’s Badger secondary, although in my opinion it’s not nearly as effective in giving Dalmi what she needs/wants. (I’m also inured by the fact that my mom has a lot of Lion secondary traits and I know their downsides firsthand.)

Summary:

Seo Dalmi: Snake/Badger Nam Dosan: Bird/Badger Won Injae: Badger/Bird Han Jipyeong: Badger/Lion

#sortinghatchats #sorting hat chats #snake badger #bird badger #badger bird #badger lion #start up #start-up

burnt & exploded bird + badger secondary (bird model)

Hi! I've been doing a lot of introspection lately and I kind of wanted a second opinion about me?

I've been reading about the primaries and of all of them, Snake seems the least wrong, but it doesn't really feel right? Like, I prioritize my people over everyone else, but I don't do it because it's the right thing to do or because I care about my people. I do it because it helps me. I don't think I'm really capable of caring about people for who they are instead of what they provide me. When I was in grade school, I made a chart of how often I could interact with my friends to maximize fondness and minimize distaste for my innate personality.

Well, somebody's got some Bird somewhere.

And you're definitely an Idealist. Loyalists see people as ends in themselves, and you don't which is... totally fine.

Although this "distaste for my innate personality" thing... you had such a strong belief that you were such a huge problem so young? What happened?

Most of my conclusions from back them remain true to this day.

Oh. Yes. You're a Bird Primary. You built a system, you built it young, and you're still living in it.

Including an inability to suppress my extreme selfishness, an inability to understand how my actions will affect other people, and an inability to actually hold a decent conversation. I intentionally "befriend" people who like to talk more than they like to listen because I don't like talking to other people, but I quite enjoy learning. My people are the only ones I ever consider, but I consider them so I can keep them, not because I really care.

You know this is fine, right? To want to be around interesting people, and listen to them talk? You're a good listener, and that is a HUGE part of "holding a decent conversation." There is no reason you have to be some sparking, witty, extroverted charmer.

And all of this talk of "extreme selfishness" and "inability to understand how my actions will affect other people?" So far it seems like you make flow charts to try to understand how your actions affect other people. Is the problem that you're not omniscient?Something is up with your secondary, there's to much "I literally am incapable of being a person" for there not to be.

Bird is the second closest, but it seems to imply a level of... put-togetherness? that I don't really have.

Yeah, I adore Birds, but Birds are crazy.

I appreciate logic and reasoning, but I'm self-aware enough to know that my decisions are mostly emotion and instinct and justified after the fact. I don't trust the "outside world" to convey accurate information to me, likely due repeated and continuous incidents in my childhood that I won't get into because it's a little too personal.

OH. You're Exploded. You're an Exploded Bird. Mostly likely you've dealt with some heavy duty gaslighting (sadly common) and this has messed with your ability to take in new information.

Best guess is that your secondary, whatever it is, is Burned, and you don't feel confident navigating the world using it.

I think I want to be a Bird and try to be a Bird but can't actually use any of its tenets. I am not a rational person.

And... that's Burnt Primary talk. "I can't reason." You're a Burnt Bird as well. I mean sure you have emotions, and bias, you're a person. But you like logic, you like coming up with conclusions and then using them as rules to live by, and you can think and reason. What does it even *mean* to say "I'm not a rational person?" Like, what, intrinsically rational? There are no rational four-year-olds, this is something that you build.

I think rationality is the best possible metric for morality you will ever find

Bird.

and I am incapable of judging on a standard that isn't "how will this help me". I use rationality as a tool to further my objective of maximizing myself.

What's the problem with that. That's just, existentialist philosophy.

I don't really like myself either, so I'm not really sure why it's an objective to maximize self-benefit. And even this isn't really the best portrayal of me? Because I think I'm acting for my own self-benefit. It's the best way I've thought of to understand myself.

No one is born not liking themselves. That happened at some point. And whatever it is, it seems to have to do with *how* you interact with the world (secondary) and not *why* you interact with the world (primary.) For having Burning and Exploding in your past, you seem pretty confident in your primary.

But the thing is, I automatically try to live up (or down) to people's expectations. This has hurt me greatly in life, both academically and socially. EX: I made a really weird first impression on one of my current "friends". They genuinely think I'm plausibly a serial killer now. I don't know how to tell them it was a bit, and I don't know how to stop acting like that around them. It doesn't feel like me while I'm not around them, and I don't think they like being around me either, but I am genuinely incapable of stopping.

Feeling like you got "stuck doing a bit" is generally an Actor Bird Secondary problem... but the idea that you can't switch out of it in the moment (even though you want to) and feeling like you're kind of only doing it because of inertia, that's something I recognize in myself. So I'm kind of inclined to say this is an automatic Secondary, Badger or Snake.

Also, it needs to be said, but if you were really as creepy and as off-putting as you seem think you are... no one would hang out with you. (unless... are you insanely good-looking? incredibly rich? Is that the context I'm missing? :)

You truly seem to believe that the multi-player version of your secondary is ineffective/incorrect/wrong. You're Burnt, in the terminology of this system. And I suspect you're being too hard on yourself.

For secondary, I feel weirdly split between Lion and Snake. Like, who I am is unchanging.

(Except when you're doing a bit.) (But I know what you mean. The 'neutral' you is always you, but that's the case for everybody.)

I will never compromise myself to fit in, even if it would help the situation.

Sounds like a You-Move secondary. (Lion or Badger.)

I have strong difficulties adapting to situations.

Prep-work secondary (Badger or Bird.) And some Burnt secondary language of course.

If you're following along, that gives us: Automatic, You-Move, Prepwork seconday = Badger.

However, I have noticed that these convictions of mine are probably false.

... that is something a Lion primary would never, ever think. To a Lion, convictions are internal and therefore true. But that doesn't work for you. You're a Bird, so you need your Truth to exist externally as well, in order to be secure and safe.

I change a lot depending on the person I'm around. EX: When I'm alone, I'm a paranoid mess that flinches at loud sounds (past trauma). When I'm with this one friend of mine who has a lot of issues with manic episodes and hates touch, I'm loud and bombastic, smiling and unnerving, and oddly physical considering the touch aversion of both me and my friend. When I'm with this other friend who's a bit more mellow, I'm almost actually nice. I say "please" and "thank you", which is also weird because this friend doesn't.

You've stopped putting "friend" in air quotes. I'll take it.

You'll call me crazy, but this sounds like Courtier Badger. You're unusual, and probably your friends are too, so it's going to manifest in some interesting ways, but that's what's going on. I know this is a process that gets called "mirroring," but the idea is not that you're reflecting back a duplicate of your friend, the idea is that you're responding to whatever they're putting out, and reflecting back whatever energy you think they need.

(I would not be at all surprised if your mellow friend finds the upped manners comforting... and your friend with manic episodes finds you being bombastic, tactile and out-there comforting as well. Like, I'd buy that. Maybe they get a lot of people tip-toeing around them and treating them with kid gloves, and the fact that you don't do that makes for a pleasant change.)

It feels like me when I'm there, but when thinking about it when alone, I don't recognize it.

^ This is a very real part of being a Courtier Badger, especially if your friends are very *different* from each other. Getting emotion "hangovers" or needing time to reset back to center after interactions is also very real.

Bird is also maybe an option, but like if I had no areas of expertise. Probably not, though.

Again with that burnt secondary talk. You almost certainly have a Bird secondary model, that you built very young when whatever happened to your Badger secondary happened. And started writing relationship flow-charts as a coping mechanism.

I think somewhere along the line, I internalized the fact that all my choices are the wrong ones and became terrified of having agency. I don't know how much this affects the evaluation, but yeah.

I hate to say it, but that's absolutely classic Burnt Bird.

That's me. You know now more about me than my therapist. Do you have a sorting?

I sure do. Maybe not the best news in the world, but then that's for you to decide. I've laid out what I think. And I'm doing to lightly suggest that you're working from some old data that is... no longer relevant. You are not nearly as bad at being a person as you seem to think you are.

#sortme #wisteria sorts #shc #sortinghatchats #bird badger #bird primary #burnt bird primary #exploded bird #badger secondary #bird secondary model

bird primary (utilitarian → badger system) + badger secondary

Hi there. I have had difficulties determining my Primary and Secondary. When I took the test, I got a Lion Primary and a Badger Secondary,

Oh like me. Excellent.

but I still have some doubts about it, so writing about it may help put things into perspective for myself and might help others figure things out for themselves.

I’d like to talk about my Secondary first, as I feel more certain about it. Growing up I found myself quickly taking on more responsibilities and tasks from people in authority (e.g., parents, teachers, employers) because they found that I could be relied upon to get the job done, which also afforded me a greater degree of independence. I am also quite the stickler for punctuality and accuracy (especially in a kitchen/laboratory), which I think has made me very disdainful of incompetence and disorganization, especially from people I work with or am close to.

yeah… I’m seeing the Badger secondary. For sure.

That’s not to say I’m a workaholic; in fact, I’m actually quite a lazy person and can sometimes feel very unmotivated to do things if there’s not an immediate need to do anything, which can make feel very frustrated with myself, as laziness often translates to incompetence and disorganization in my mind,

I’m going to tell you something that someone told me, and which blew my mind: True laziness feels good.

Laziness that doesn’t feel good isn’t laziness. It’s executive dysfunction, it’s burnout, it’s exhaustion, it’s depression, it’s a a lack of coping mechanisms for some kind of neurodivergence. (Or some combination, of course.) There’s something in the way preventing you from getting the job done.

My guess, is that you’re a Badger secondary that’s taken on too much, or is in danger of burning. I have very, very much been there.

although when I need to do something, I usually leap into action almost immediately.

Yeah. You’re using adrenaline to hack your brain, which *is* a common coping mechanism. Please don’t think of “laziness”… or not working constantly… as a moral failing.

In terms of working/being with other people, I’m alright working with others, though I prefer to work on my own because I get annoyed when people get distracted with things other than their work. I also prefer working independently as I can get impatient waiting for others to get their act together.

That’s you in Bookkeeper Badger mode.

However, when I work in a team, I find myself complimenting them on their abilities, and making sure that everyone knows that our work was a team effort when I’m congratulated.

That’s you in Courtier Badger mode.

A lot of this also translates into my social life as well, which means that I’m often aimless when I don’t have a plan and feel frustrated when people start changing plans in the middle of things.

A) That’s a common prepwork secondary thing. B) (not to armchair diagnose) But that’s common neurodivergent thing as well.

This doesn’t mean I’m uncaring of others

Oh no. Not liking when other people change the plan on you does NOT mean you are uncaring. It means you have boundaries. (Something which Badgers are… notoriously bad at.)

though, as many people have found me to be a very charming and likeable, if somewhat eccentric person. I have also found that I’m also very good at caring and talking to others,

You’ve got a Courtier Badger thing, for sure.

though I find I can be a bit blunt and formal in my speech, especially with strangers. This sounds like a primarily bookkeeper Badger Secondary to me, but I’m not sure due to the aforementioned laziness and impatience.

Oh man. I could have written *all* of this. So I’m going to do my best not to project. But being blunt and formal in your speech (especially with strangers) is an absolutely classic neruodivergent thing. My guess (although I’m not armchair diagnosing, that’s super not ethical and not possible in this forum anyway) is that you might want to take a look at some of the autism spectrum stuff.

And stop beating yourself up about laziness (executive dysfunction) and impatience (setting clear expectations and boundaries.)

My Primary is a bit more difficult for me to nail down, as I think I model aspects of all four.

My favorite. Hit me with it. I’m guessing Bird going in.

As a child, I was very inquisitive and wanted to know why things worked as well as how,

Think we have a point for Bird.

only to quickly grow bored once I felt I’d heard enough and move on to the next thing that caught my attention. I was (and still am) very stubborn and kept at things I wanted to do, but was also very expressive in my refusal to do things I didn’t want to do.

…. you might also want to take a look at the adhd spectrum material too. Because this is “preferred task” stuff.

I also wanted the approval of the people around me,

That could be external primary… or external primary model… or in this specific case bleed over of a really strong Badger secondary.

but paradoxically didn’t feel beholden to most of them either and mostly kept to myself and a few select others. Growing up, I began to see that not everyone shared the same views and values as I did (and was often bullied for expressing them), which made me become more secretive and closed off as a result. Once I was in my teens, I came to the (erroneous) conclusion that I couldn’t allow my emotions or principles get in the way of my progressing through life and so I developed a colder, more logical approach towards things, which ultimately did little aside from make me overthink things a lot.

You switched systems. You’re Bird who switched systems. You’ve talked about *nothing* except systems.

I also came to the conclusion that loyalty to individuals/small groups (e.g. friends and family members) was better than loyalty to organisations or higher causes,

Okay, you’re running me though the logic that leads to building a Snake system.

but at the same time found that as both a tiresome and unfulfilling approach to life, which made me realise I was more loyal to the idea of family and friends than the actual people themselves (to the point of romanticising them, which has always admittedly been a flaw of mine),

Okay… so Snake system is out, because you don’t want to romanticize your family and friends. Good.

which often has made me think that I’m not a good person because my ideals mean more to me than the people around me.

… it means you’re an. Idealist. Do I need to start quoting Kant and Sartre again?

(Birds, please stop thinking that you’re bad people! You all think this! You’re so moral!)

Ultimately, I just want to do the right thing for myself and the people I care about, no matter what everyone else says, which is something that has remained consistent throughout my life. In the end, my values (or ‘code’) can be boiled down to the following:

take care of yourself

I do hope everyone would start here. How are supposed to do anything, if you’re not functional. I am very happy to read it here though. This is a thing that Badger secondaries… often neglect.

help out where you can

Badger secondary.

keep your promises

Badger secondary.

pay your debts

Badger secondary.

fight for those who would fight for you.

Hmm. An interesting way of phrasing that. Sure you could say that’s a Lion flavored system, but the focus on the community and collective noun of “people who will fight for you” makes me think that your current system is a little more Badger flavored. But it could be either.

I don’t know if this sounds like a Lion Primary, but it feels a bit like it to me. I hope you can make some sense of these ramblings and I apologise for this being quite long.

I thought you were incredibly succinct and to the point. And whatever system you are currently using, the Bird primary is undeniable.

#submission #wisteria sorts #sortme #bird badger #sortinghatchats

Hey Wisteria, I'm trying to type this character that definitely gives off Bird Primary/Badger Secondary vibes, but he's also the kind of guy who's willing to throw down for his beliefs which is a stereotypical Lion response. I know Bird/Badger's aren't robots, but I am a little stumped trying to think of similar characters with this typing that would react like he does.

So I was wondering if you know any examples of emotional Bird Primaries off the top of your head?

Thank you very much!

The Bird primaries I would describe as "willing to throw down" tend to be Bird Lions (Harley Quinn, Julian Bashir, Buzz Lightyear, Hamlet, Venom) (that's a weird list.) Birds can absolutely get just as emotional as Lions, it just takes them a little longer to get there.

What's going on with your guy seems like a Bird Badger with a Lion secondary model. That's a combo you also see on Diego Hargreeves and Jean Luc Picard. So, a little rarer, but definitely a thing.

(this post is about my favorite character analysis system, which yes was once based off HP, but is now completely it's own thing, for many, many reasons.)

#shc #bird badger #bird lion

(semi-exploded) bird primary? + badger secondary (bird model)

So, I’m fairly certain I’m likely a burnt badger with some bird tendencies, but as I have thought things through, I still wonder about that. The rest of my family all have badger and bird tendencies. I, myself, have a tendency to wear my heart on my sleeve and to love openly with the people around me. I’m usually the ‘team mom’ for my friends.

Some Badger? Some Lion?

But this said, I do struggle in groups, particularly large groups. Part of this, I’m sure, is just that I’m autistic, and grew up in a time where it was much harder for girls to get diagnosed. I didn’t have much in the way of a friend group in my early childhood, and tended to be ‘the friend everyone hates’ because I was the weird kid.

I know what it’s like to be the unfavorite friend. I *also* know what it’s like to find large groups difficult. For me it’s literally an auditory processing thing. I have a lot of trouble being around certain types of noise. But I love small groups of the right people, and pleasant environments!

Even in my teens, I was ill at ease with my sole friend group in school, feeling like a bit of a third wheel at times. I took comfort in a fandom group on the internet, spending more time around adults in a Jedi community than around folks my own age.

Again, I can really, really relate. I went in a more Sherlock Holmes direction, but yeah. I imagine that there was probably a combination of things going on on that made it easier to make adult friends, but I’ve been there.

I’m still friends with people I knew back then on that site. They encouraged me, in a way, to lean into my more birdish tendencies, as we spent a lot of time talking about philosophy, martial arts, religion, spirituality, and how all of this related to what it meant to be Jedi. When I started watching 'The West Wing’ in my teens, I got so into it that I also developed a fascination for American history and politics.

Just playing Devil’s Advocate here, but I haven’t read about any Birdish tendencies yet. Fun bird secondary model sure, and that’s super common for neurodivergent people. If anything, the focus on groups - in group, out-group, good group, is making me think Badger.

Even prior to this, I had some admitted bird tendencies: I remember, in my final year of primary school, struggling to choose a project topic because I had so many different things I was interested in. I went from Shakespeare to medieval history to Victorian history to finally settling on Greek mythology.

Are you me? Even that list of topics is… very me.

(this is still a fun bird model, though.)

I had educational computer games that I loved. I had books on earth sciences (I loved volcanoes and dinosaurs as a small child), and numerous iSpy and Dorling Kindersley books. Yet, all I wanted was to have friends. All I wanted was for people to like me.

Oh my god. You’re making me think of high school me, and that persona I created that was deliberately impossible to be mean to. You wouldn’t be mean to me. That would be like kicking a puppy.

I tried – still try – so hard to be kind, to help where I can. Going to university and studying theology, I was in among older adults. I found it easier to talk to them. In our common room, we became something of a family. Going on, I’ve had a few friend groups in adulthood that had that same 'family’ feeling, although we always ended up drifting as life happened. I still have a small group of friends I consider to be my family.

You’re a really *loud* Badger secondary.

#submission #sortinghatchats #sortme #wisteria sorts #bird primary #exploded bird primary #badger secondary #bird secondary model #bird badger

bird primary (system in progress) + burnt badger secondary (really loud bird model)

Howdy! I’m still trying to figure out my own houses and was wondering if you could provide some insight. I haven’t exactly mastered the system so I don’t know how accurate/inaccurate my claims are, so bear with me.

The “why”/Primary: I am extremely motivated by knowledge. I want to know things, not just out of intrinsic curiosity (though that does play a role), but because knowing why things work helps me protect myself more effectively.

One of the trickiest things about this system is separating motivation from method. Because yeah, they are related, but they're also really different. Like this example: "I protect myself by learning things." That's a how, that's secondary stuff. (Bird secondary of course.)

A recent example is this— a group of my former friends all ditched me because I discussed a heavily stigmatized mental disorder that I show symptoms of. And my first response (other than bawling) was to ask them why. And when I got the answer, I was hurt, but I understood. I don’t say this for you to show me pity, but rather because it illustrates this model in action.

This is a really interesting example. Your friends acted in a way that emotionally hurt you. First you processed your feelings (which you talk about in a dismissive, lighthearted, jokey way) then you asked them for more information... which hurt you, but also made you more secure. This is very Bird primary. You feel feelings, but they're whatever. What actually bothers you is not having the data.

(I suspect you're going to end up being a Double Bird. And Double Birds are unique in that their morality and problem-solving are SO interconnected, that they think I'm crazy for saying that for most people, they are in fact two very different things.)

When I got the why and processed my emotions, I cut off ties and realized that their severe judgy-ness had hindered my life for 2 years. And now that I know the “why”, I won’t bring up said disorder again until I know it’s safe. It might never be, but I still have hope.

You updated your system, and you cut away the parts that aren't serving you anymore. Bird primary.

Morally-speaking, I am very sensitive to the views of others around me.

External primary.

I’m not proud of this. In fact, it’s a detriment.

A lot of Birds feel this way. It's a big part of why they tend to like Lion primaries. Lions are much more able to dismiss things with "sounds like that's a them problem."

I won’t go into details, but my parents are… bad. Not wholly, but they are bad. I’ve tried for years, and still do, to escape their opinions because I know it’ll influence mine.

Parents are sticky. They do that. I've been a happily UnBurnt Lion primary for a while now... but I still sometimes hear that voice in my head that sounds like my mother.

And, much like them, I tend to get over-passionate in what I stand for. Unlike them, I’m willing to change if evidence supports this change. I always, however, carry the burden of my former hatred. I always feel guilt over my old beliefs. Even if I’ve changed, the pain I’ve done can never be reversed. And this guilt eats me alive, this shame of being fundamentally wrong.

Okay. You got really emotional on me really quickly here. This could mean a couple things. Your parents sound like fairly toxic Idealists, either Exploded Lions or Exploded Birds (I'm sort of leaning Lion due to the more emotion-heavy words like "passion" and "hatred.") Birds can feel bad, feel guilt, feel shame when looking back at an older version of themselves that they now consider morally repugnant. (Birds are human.) Idealists struggle with the angst of worrying that they are fundamentally wrong about the world. So you could be a guilty Bird, especially if your emotions feel wrong or unhelpful somehow. But you could also be a very Burnt Lion modeling Bird - because Bird seems safer, and you don't want to be a Lion the way your parents are.

#sortinghatchats #sortme #wisteria sorts #bird badger #birdpri #badgersec #bird secondary model #badger secondary vs bird secondary #autism stuff