#dick grayson meta

[nightwingsgypsyrep]

I’m gonna be honest… the way that some people discuss Dick’s childhood and upbringing in the circus as though it was inherently abusive is such a middle-class, antiziganist take to have.

I grew up on the fairground and part of that was I had to work. I got my first “game” (a striker) when I was three years old and I minded it by myself for several hours at a time whilst my parents worked in different things we owned. I was three. And that meant that by the time I got to school, I was well socialised, had fantastic emotional control, and could do complex maths using decimals on my own, mentally. It made me an incredibly organised person, with a good work ethic, and an understanding of responsibility. What part of that is abusive?

And that’s completely normal for us Showmen (gypsies from fairground/circus). We grow up learning our family’s trades from a very young age so that when we take over we’re not useless, we’re ready. It’s a cohesive family unit where everyone contributes and benefits equally. Every one of my peers grew up doing the exact same thing because it’s entirely normal for us, and we take pride in our work.

But of course, the middle class gorjas with their pocket money and allowances cannot fathom a world in which cultural values and the skills which are necessary for our culture and industry to survive being instilled from a young age is anything but abusive. How horrible, that I got to spend my summers outside in the fresh air, alongside my parents and my siblings and my grandparents and my aunts and uncles and cousins? That I got to learn maths in a practical environment without the anxiety of exams, whilst listening to the music on the waltzers, and playing with my friends and cousins after? That I was able to learn skills such as stock-taking before most of my peers could spell their own names? That I got lots of exercise as I helped to build up and pull down? That I got to visit places all over the country and learn the local history whilst spending the money which I earned through my own dedication and hard work? That I gained independence without danger because my parents were right there beside me? That I got to go home to a trailer that was so beautifully done up that my parents had visitors from all over the country just to visit it and see it for themselves? I guess I would have been far better off as a latchkey kid sat in front of an Xbox or something.

[oneshotprincess]

i read this post on tumblr the other day that talked about how dick's time at haly's as part of the flying graysons made him particularly receptive to bruce's teaching methods to the point where bruce thought 'wow parenting is easy!' and then immediately got the next kid killed ://

and honestly? yea

dick's training as a flying grayson really is an overlooked part of his backstory. he already was doing death defying stunts and back breaking training! that was normal for him! and that probably 1) gave him a thing for perfectionism even before bruce, 2) primed him for bruce's specific brand of bat training and other neuroses and 3) made him think that yea, ofc, none of this is a big deal.

its amazing. truly the duo of all time.

[fantastic-nonsense]

so I finally figured out what Dick's mysterious second degree is

for context, at the tail end of the Nightwing Rebirth run we were told that Dick has two degrees, one of which is a masters degree in forensics:

"I can have an advanced degree in forensics, but can't figure out the-" -Nightwing (2016) #43

You could argue that his other degree is his mysterious law degree, which is something he'd never had before and I assume Tom Taylor gifted to Dick because pre-reboot Earth-2 Dick was a lawyer:

"Really? Because I have a law degree." "Oh, yeah. So do I." -Nightwing (2016) #80

Though I suspect it's also probably Taylor following up on Humphries changing Dick's major at Hudson University from business (which he studied pre-Crisis) to what appears to be either pre-law or a dual degree program:

-"...and I wasn't Robin either. I was just regular Dick Grayson, Hudson University college student. Taking a semester at Bludhaven College Law School." -Nightwing (2016) #39

But the Rebirth panels were written years before Taylor's run and a JD is another graduate degree, leaving me ??? about what Dick got his bachelors in. Especially since he notably dropped out of Hudson University after one year (pre-Crisis) or one semester (post-Crisis), and you can't get into law school without an undergraduate degree in the modern era.

Well, I was browsing through old Who's Who profiles and guess what I found?

"This group disbanded when Dick began his college studies at Hudson University. While Dick soon dropped out of college, he later returned to complete his degree in psychology and criminology." -Who's Who in the DC Universe (1990) #14

Back in the 90s, Wolfman casually slid in that Dick went back to finish his degree program at some point after dropping out of Hudson. Which, to be fair, is something Dick would do. He canonically liked school just fine, he only dropped out because he consistently prioritized heroing over going to class and it killed his grades. In the age of correspondence courses and online degrees, Dick is someone who would realistically actually go back and finish his studies.

It's a bit out of left field, as I'm not sure anyone really picked up the plot thread dropped in this profile afterwards, but it does generally also match up with Dick going through the Police Academy later in Dixon's Nightwing run, since a lot of academies began favoring or requiring a college degree before admittance in the 90s. It also matches up with his academy instructor's final evaulation:

"Despite an overall display of boredom in the legal and forensics classes, his instructors gave him high marks for his finished work." -Nightwing Secret Files and Origins (1999)

Obviously, the boredom was because he'd been a vigilante for over a decade by that point and both his prior training by Batman and lived experience as a hero had well outstripped anything the academy could offer him, but it is a notable alignment with his stated degrees.

Also, I think it's fun that Dick completing a double major in psychology and criminology rather than his original business major adds a lot of background context to both of his post-Flashpoint graduate degrees (forensics and law) as well as what he clearly perceives to be his full-time career (heroing).

[puimoo]

Abusive John and Mary Grayson

You know what? In light of both the most recent Batman and Robin year 1 Batman and Robin Year 1 chapter and December's Batman: The Long Halloween - The Last Halloween chapter?

There are some versions of canon!John and Mary Grayson where they are actually, absolutely, abusive and exploitive parents. Where his parents had Dick training for 10 hours a day since he was three, where he's been performing full-time since he was 5, where enough people in the circus knew he was being groomed for the Court of Owls. Where his parents (or at least, John) cared more about either the thrill of the crowd/earning more money than he did the safety of his own son.

And, I know I say this every month or so, but circuses were terribly exploitive already of child acrobats, and I always felt that the Court of Owls was in part a parallel to the child trafficking that went on there.

Interestingly, John and Mary are held up as the gold standard of parents by others, in a similar way that Dick is held up as the gold standard as Robin. And yet, so many of those damaging personality traits that Dick has can be so easily traced back to his relationship with his parents.

What I love about Halloween is that it doesn't just talk about Dick's experiences pre-Bruce, but dares suggest that it actually wasn't healthy for Dick. I would even go so far as to say that there is almost an edge of fear in how Dick talks about his father.

I want so much for the darker side of the Graysons to be explored, even if just via fandom. Give me a John Grayson who is a punishing, unrelenting father who doesn't tolerate less than 100% commitment and perfectionism. A Mary who gets isolated from her own friends and loses herself in the fantasy of the Flying Grayson family at the expense of her son. A Dick who is 8 and has just lost everything, and who sees his parents through rose-colored glasses and the circus as a family instead of the exploitive business it was because he is a child. Give me the perfect Grayson family as a deliberately crafted marketing strategy, rather than an actuality. And. Give me other people in Dick's life who think, actually? His childhood was really fucked up.

There's a really interesting line in Halloween where Dick says that Bruce didn't just save his life, he gave him one. Most versions of Bruce in canon strive (at least initially) to give Dick a childhood, and it is Dick who always tries to push for more - who doesn't feel comfortable doing less. Bruce puts more importance on Dick being a child than some versions of Mary and John ever did.

... I might have to give a particular fic that is currently sitting in my 'too hard' basket another go.

[junkdrawerfan]

Final Thoughts on Nightwing: Year One....

Nightwing: Year One is a fun comic with a lot of great moments, fun DickBabs teasers, and works as a fantastic solo-Nightwing introduction. However, it sanitizes the original Dick-Bruce-Jason confrontation and robs us off the richer 1980s Post-Crisis relationship.

Let me explain.

N:YO opens with Dick having left the Titans on temporary leave to find himself now that he is no longer Robin. He reaches out to Superman. He returns to Haly's to explore his roots. Both events lead to him taking the name Nightwing and wearing the dark blue-medium blue suit we see below. And then he returns to Gotham, introduces his new identity to Babs, Jim, Joker, and a variety of goons with every intention of continuing to work in Gotham.

And then he meets Jason.

First! I want to say, Jason is so lovable in this. He is so cocky!! I want to pinch his cheek and give him a noogie. Maybe flick his nose Haha! What a little rascal!!

Now on to the meat and potatoes:

Like the original 1980s story (Batman (1940) #416), there is resentment. But it's a cold resentment. He's upset but he's jaded. Dick thinks "I should have expected this" as he quietly grinds his teeth.

As the story progresses, Dick forges a brief partnership with the new Robin while trying to save Alfred and fight Killer Croc. Eventually reaching a quiet acceptance of the new status quo before recording a farewell speech to Bruce and riding off into the sunset, abandoning Gotham to return to the Titans.

It's all very different from the original post-crisis rewrite of Dick & Jason's meeting in Batman (1940) #416.

There Dick runs hot there. He's betrayed. He's angry. He confronts Bruce and refuses to leave until he hears the truth Bruce is too scared to admit. And when Bruce tells him to get lost, he grieves. This is a painful moment in the epic that is Bruce & Dick's relationship. And its all the better for it.

As the issue goes on, Dick meets Jason one last time, offering him the Robin suit and his phone number. A lifeline for when Bruce gets to be "too much." But you can tell it's more an act of empathetic kindness than any real attempt to foster a relationship with his new "brother." There is no follow up. Dick doesn't try to foster a relationship. He's a distant lifeline that Jason never grabs.

(Partially because Jason is scared of Dick. Jason sees Dick is much better than him and immediately worries that Dick is here for "his old job." Which is very inline with Post-Crisis Robin!Jason. Post-Crisis Robin!Jason is a very nervous young man. He's afraid of losing what he's gained and that persists until it costs him everything in Death of the Family.)

To be honest, I prefer the original.

A defining feature of Jason’s Robin era is how isolated Jason and Bruce are from the wider DC hero community. Nightwing is gone. Batgirl exists but doesn’t work directly with Batman. Huntress isn’t part of the family. Selina comes and goes. Most of Gotham’s other heroes and anti-heroes won't appear until post-Tim.

While Jason occasionally fights alongside the Titans, he’s never truly one of them. He’s Nightwing’s plus-one, not a teammate. He never builds a peer community the way Dick, Tim, and Damian do as Robin. That absence is unique to Jason, and it explains a core element of Bruce & Jason's relationship: their co-dependence.

Nightwing: Year One flattens the Dick-Bruce-Jason dynamic.

On Dick and Bruce’s side, we are robbed of the explosive confrontation between Dick & Bruce that will lay the groundwork for their poor relationship in Batman: Year Three post Jason's death and subsequent painful reconciling post-Batman: Prodigal.

It also severs the small but vital connection between Dick and Jason—the lifeline never meant to be taken. Without it, Dick’s grief over Jason’s death becomes far more self-centered. In N:YO, Dick never even attempts a relationship with Jason while he’s alive. By contrast, Batman (1940) #416 frames Dick’s guilt as the regret of a genuine missed connection.

The greatest loss, however, is how N:YO reframes Bruce and Jason entirely. Instead of a lonely man clinging to a grieving child, as in Batman (1940) #416, N:YO presents Jason as a cocky wild-child who demands the Robin mantle and needs to be "saved" from his "worst impulses." For fucks sake, Dick jokingly asks Bruce "did you pick him up before the Joker could?"

In Batman (1940) #408-411, we see Jason as a nervous, well-meaning kid doing what he can to get by, who sees a chance at a better life if he accepts the Robin mantle and dedicate himself to Batman's crusade. Hell, Batman (1940) #416 directly states that "Bruce made Jason Robin to save him from himself" is a lie and pure cope so Bruce doesn't have to confront the fact that he is endangering a child because he's lonely!

Of course, canon is flexible. It twists and turns with the flow of time. We pick the stories that appeal to us and construct the narratives that we enjoy. Batman (and all DC/Marvel) is similar to many mythological storytelling patterns of civilizations past.

But one thing I really do love about the OG 1980s post-crisis stories about Jason and his death is that Jason was a victim as much as he was a hero. Its so unique and makes his Robin tenure so much richer.

I know people love the "Robin is Magic" Jason of the Silver and Bronze age; the lighthearted second Boy Wonder who danced across the page with a fun school life and a perfect father.

But the Post-Crisis 1980s retelling, in my opinion, offers a much deeper story: the story of a child desperate to do his best, wrestling with his anxieties/traumas while trying to find his place in a new family after the devastating loss of his first one, alongside a wounded mentor who tries (and fails) to do right by him. Until, ultimately, it all ends in tragedy.

I encourage everyone to give it a read!

[kezahex]

Some Meta about Damian and Jason

So, I've been seeing some discussions on fandom versus canon and the relationships of Jason, Damian, and some of the other Bats. And I wanted to address some of the issues I see, without spamming anyone, so I decided to make my own post.

First off: Fanon likes to overcorrect for racism and most other kinds of bigotry. A great example of this is with Dick. As a Romani person, I grew up loving Dick Grayson as one of very few Romani characters in comics. I grew up with my mother talking about all the symbolism in the Robin costume, the fact that he had been in a circus for generations, Dick as a a name, and when it was confirmed the nineties by Lian I was over the moon.

Then Devin Grayson happened, and for a lot of people, the very idea of Dick being Rom became about nothing but sexualization and fetishization. Why? Because Devin Grayson confirmed it, even though Lian did in the nineties. Now you get some people who will celebrate it as diversity, while others will get really mad and call you racist if you push Dick as Rom. I, as a half-Rom person, got called racist for using Romani chib/Romanes in a story because omg don't you know that was only Devin Grayson and he's always been white!!!!!

With Damian, there's been a lot of movement to make the Al Ghul's worse for decades within the comics. Talia is supposed to be Dick's age, but instead now she's an immortal and horrible mother that experiments on her son.

The League has strayed so far from what it was originally supposed to be that people don't even know it started for the purpose of protecting nature/the planet. The first uses of the Lazarus Pits were to try and increase endangered and possibly extinct species. Grant Morrison was one of the worst with this.

So, fanon sees the white saviorism in taking the multiracial brown kid out of the hands of the evil ARABS and have Bruce and Dick teach him in ten minutes that killing is wrong, mmmkay.

So, Fanon looks at the historical influences on the League, the old purposes, the Talia who took down Lex from the inside, and combines that with the Talia that was in Lost Days, and shakes out a better, less racist version of a very flawed mother.

If DC can somehow take Nyssa Raatko, a character that literally tortured her little sister for months, repeatedly taking her to the edge of death and then Lazarus'ing her, for not being Al Ghul enough, and turn her into a doting mom who accepts her trans child -- why can't fanon use Old!Talia as a mom and not Icky!Talia?

Now, into this, throw Jason. Jason, who was supposed to come back as a kind of lesson, who was being set up to become Nightwing's big enemy. There are interviews with the writers who were shocked that so many people liked Jason. Not in a "Oh, a hot villain" way, or in the way some people like Joker, but in the "Yeah, I like his view, I respect it," way.

DC did not expect this, and had no idea what to do with it. Batman is DC's cash cow, and they can't have anyone on the good side seriously disagree with him, but if Jason adopts the no-kill rule, then the people who like him for putting down the monsters won't like it, and we start the flip-flop that is still happening. He's following the rule, he's not. He's family, he's not.

So they write the majority of Lost Days, giving us the best maternal relationship Jason gets, depending on your opinions of Nocturna. We see good mom Talia and people love it, up until DC tries to get people to hate Talia by pputting that scene in Lost Days. They had seen how people had turned on Slade and Hal, neither of which were intended to turn people on those characters, so obviously people would turn on Talia, right?

Some did. Most just went: "This is out of character and must be because Nyssa is torturing her every night."

They Bring Red Hood back in, but they need confirm that killing bad, missing again, why people liked him. I'm a survivor of child-on-child SA that the system never punished, because "They are just kids." Do you know how many years I sent letters to Santa, the Tooth Fairy, God, asking them to just make them go away? It is all too common for victims to be told that they need to heal they need to get over it. Red Hood gives victims a hero who is willing to be the monster under the bed who will end the monster hurting you, so they can never hurt you again. That is comforting to a lot of people, in a way that the no-kill rule, and Bruce or Cass's moral code is not.

But Batman is the cash cow, and Robin is Batman's biological son, so he has to become like Batman, and reject the morals of his evil family and his low class maybe-brother in two months.

That's not realistic, so fanon stretches it out, builds connections that make more sense to them, that make the choices seem less arbitrary. They try to explain a Jason who knew Batman had a kill count, who was handed a gun by Bruce, who was told fathers avenge their sons being mad that the rules changed after his death. They look at a Jason who was with the League with Damian and go "They can't have never met."

I'm not saying either side is inherently wrong, I'm saying that they have different understandings of the characters and read it different ways. It's important to allow people to think and to explore, otherwise the fandoms we love would become stagnant.

[valiantothello]

Batman: A Lonely Place of Dying, Chapter 2: Roots

Its moments like this that show me how Dick is truly so much better than me. If a random kid walked up to me and said that about my father who just decked me in the face and told me to not come back, I'd get violent 😭.

And the funny thing is, we as the reader know that Dick has been "paying back" what he "owes" Bruce, as Tim says it. Batman Year Three shows Dick going to talk to Bruce after talking with his therapist *post-New Titans #53 in the hopes of settling the issues between them.

"DON'T YOU DARE BLAME ME FOR JASON'S DEATH!"

*New titans #53

Never say Dick doesn't go to therapy, guys

This all happens relatively close to each other, timeline wise. I'm pretty sure it's Dick; finds out Jason is dead, goes to Bruce, gets punched, leaves, has a Titans meeting and fires Danny Chase because he cant stomach mentoring someone so young anymore, goes to his therapist then goes to talk to Bruce again. Bruce isn't left to his own devices for very long, is what I'm trying to say. For even more reference, Jason dies in Batman #429: A Death in the Family and Dick comes back for his second talk with Bruce in Batman #436: Batman Year Three.

"BRUCE? BRUCE, WE'VE GOT TO-" "IT'S ALFRED, SIR. MASTER BRUCE IS GONE." "HE HAD TO KNOW I WANTED TO SPEAK WITH HIM, SO HE RAN BEFORE WE HAD OUR CONFRONTATION. ALFRED, I'M DEFINITELY FEELING YOU'RE RIGHT. SOMETHING'S WRONG WITH HIM, AND HE'S AVOIDING THE VERY PEOPLE WHO COULD TRY TO HELP HIM." "OUR CONVERSATIONS HAVE BEEN MINIMAL AT BEST-- --AND ONLY WHEN I AM TENDING TO HIS WOUNDS... WE NEED TO DO SOMETHING BEFORE-- WHICH ARE MORE FREQUENT THAN I HAVE EVER SEEN BEFORE." "THE TITANS BEEPER. HOLD A SEC."

Batman #437: Batman Year Three

He goes to find Bruce but ends up finding out how much excessive force Bruce is using on his opponents. It's so bad that Dick has to call an ambulance for a guy Bruce left behind on his rampage.

"HE KEPT SHOUTIN AT US--WANTED TO KNOW ABOUT THE GANG KILLINGS."

"WANTED TO KNOW WHAT WAS GOING DOWN THE GRAPEVINE" "I HEARD A RUMOR--NOTHIN' MORE. I SWEAR IT 'BOUT RICKY ROSSELLI... I TOLD BATMAN WHAT I HEARD." "BUT HE DIDN'T BELIEVE 'IM. HE KEPT HITTIN' JACKY TILL JACKY COULDN'T TALK NO MORE." "I'M CALLING FOR AN AMBULANCE. WHEN I'M DONE, I WANT YOU TO TELL ME EVERYTHING YOU TOLD BATMAN." 'What's HAPPENED to you, Bruce? what's going on?'

Batman #437: Batman Year Three

He ends up finding Bruce, only to get shrugged off. They play a game of cat and mouse: Dick chasing after Bruce, trying to get him to open up to him and Bruce running away from facing both his feelings AND Dick.

"WHEN ARE YOU GOING TO OPEN UP, BRUCE? YOU CAME SO CLOSE. WHY DID YOU SHUT DOWN ALL OVER AGAIN?"

Batman #437: Batman Year Three

Essentially, Dick takes up the brunt of the emotional labour in this book but Bruce is not allowing Dick to help. He says this when confronted by Dick about it:

Batman #437: Batman Year Three

"WHERE ARE YOU GOING?"

"I HAVE SOME THEORIES I WANT TO CHECK OUT." "THEN I'M COMING WITH YOU." "NO! I DON'T NEED ANY PARTNERS."

The crux of the problem that Tim just doesn't get is that it's not about Dick not being Robin. Dick has been attempting to connect with Bruce, despite what he's done to him. The problem is Bruce rejecting partnership of any kind. He is pushing Alfred away, he is pushing Dick away. He cannot stomach the idea of a team anymore.

My point circles back to the idea of Dick owing something to Bruce. Dick owes Bruce nothing that he hasn't paid for in the form of years of loyalty, love and forgiveness. He will help Bruce time and time again and now the idea of debt is being thrown in his face and its like?? I think Tim saying that highlights how out the loop he really is on the Dick-Bruce relationship, despite everything he finds out, he has only gleamed the surface.

This was supposed to be a funny shitpost and it became meta oh ok 👍

[burned-scones]

Dick Grayson: The “Eldest Daughter”

From a comics perspective what kills me about “Dick Grayson Eldest Daughter Syndrome™” is that Dick wasn’t even there. Between his fraught relationship with Bruce + the Titans/living in New York + living in Bludhaven Dick was not fucking with the family early on!

Dick was an only child for the majority of his life. He was raised, alone, by Bruce, not as his son but as his partner. He certainly filled a fucked up role but it wasn’t that of an “eldest daughter”. Then, regardless of which canon you subscribe to, his parting with Bruce/Robin created problems, distancing himself. from Bruce and Gotham. He didn’t want anything to do with them! If you go by post-crisis, he was so successful he didn’t even know about Jason because they didn’t speak for 18 months. Dick had to confront Bruce about adopting Jason as Dick’s literal replacement.

His only connection to Jason across canon is Bruce and the Robin mantle he never intended to pass on. He was cordial and polite but he wasn’t anything close to a brother or even a mentor. He just didn’t see Jason as his responsibility and for the most part Jason didn’t want him to!

So, he lived his own life with the Titans in New York. He occasionally interacted with Bruce and Jason as colleagues in the hero sphere. Jason was never anything more until he got a little older and they spent more time together. Then, he died, denying both of them the chance to become more.

This is when Dick and Bruce’s relationship once more fractured. Dick tried to be there for Bruce after Jason died and his mental health took a nose-dive but Bruce refused to let him in. In fact, he made Dick’s mental health worse. Dick had to give up. So, once more, he distanced himself. They lived separate lives again until Tim changed that.

Tim dragged Dick back and convinced him to give both him and Bruce a chance. Dick then remained involved only after Tim claimed Dick was going to train him (thanks to Bruce outsourcing lmao). Being a little older, feeling guilt about Jason’s death, and genuinely enjoying mentoring Tim, he slowly returned to the family.

THIS is when his mentorship of Robins and brotherly affections bloomed. However, Tim, again, was not his priority. Dick lived in Bludhaven! He had his own city and Robin is Batman’s partner, not Nightwing’s. This extended to Steph and her Robin run which he wasn’t there for due to The Horrors of his Devin Greyson run. Cassandra meanwhile floated between Babs and Bruce before moving to Bludhaven. She and Dick had a decent relationship but definitely not as siblings. Dick respected her as a hero and colleague related to The Bats and Babs until she left the US.

Dick didn’t cement himself in the Batfam until Bruce disappeared into the time stream and he essentially raised/trained Damian.

Here, much to his initial chagrin, he became Batman and worked alongside Oracle, Batgirl (Steph), and Robin. (This is also when Jason officially joins Dick’s rogue gallery as Red Hood, setting them up to have an even more complicated and distant relationship than before. There certainly are not any brotherly affections between them until at least Batman Inc and even that takes a while to smooth over.) Over time he learned how to work with them and grew closer to them. He was the Batman to their Batgirl and Robin and became a backbone of the Gotham/Bat operation. Once Bruce returned, Dick then chose to stay.

Dick didn’t start out as a sibling. His journey as an older brother/mentor for the Batfam was long, slow, and arduous. Dick had to grow out of his angsty late teens into his early twenties. He matured through his experiences with the Titans, Jason and Tim, Bludhaven, and the Batman mantle. He only raised one sibling. He did not do this as a child himself, therefore sacrificing his own childhood to become a parent.

He was an only child thrown into de facto fatherhood at a young age after extreme tragedies, who suddenly found himself one of the most experienced people in a room full of kids/teens/family.

This is the context for Dick Grayson as a character. This means, from a comics perspective, he has not experienced “eldest daughter syndrome” and never will.