#epic discourse

[chocolatemilkchef]

I don't think the people attacking Eurylochus for opening the wind bag realize how goofy Odysseus's argument sounds from the crews perspective. "Hey guys this is totally not treasure actually its a super scawy storm that's inside this tiny wittle bag, trust me pweeze~~ (*´ω*)人" LIKE COME ON I WOULDA OPENED THAT SHIT TOO

[polyestheresther]

The Odysseus glaze is so biased istg.

Bro mass murdered 108 people, sacrificed six men to Scylla then sacrificed the rest of his crew to Zeus, tortured a literal god, yet y’all can still baby him and be like “ohh he’s just a lil monster rawr rawr rawr”

meanwhile the only thing eurylochus did was open a wind bag, commit a mutiny (which was well deserved tbh), and then kill a cow when he was about to fucking die of starvation, and the fandom turns him into a mean black bigback

I can’t speak for calypso but the SA is not confirmed in Jorge’s musical, so right now the only thing she did is imprison ody for seven years and alienation of affection. However the fandom misinterprets her and gives her death threats and mocks her.

if y’all can “justify” and excuse Ody’s actions because he suffered a lot, then why don’t you excuse calypso actions because she suffered a lot? Why don’t you excuse Eurylochus’s actions because he suffered a lot?

Odysseus was away from home for 20 years and had to suffer through brutal war, but so did eurylochus. Odysseus lost his best friend polities, but so did eurylochus. Odysseus lost six men (because of his own fault), but so did eurylochus. And then eurylochus had to face the betrayal of his best friend and captain (who is actually supposed to lead the men but end up sacrificing all of them) while Ody gets to rant about how much he suffered and have a big dramatic crashout arc when eurylochus literally went through the same thing, and y’all ignore that and exaggerate how much Ody “suffered”.

Also, Eurylochus’s actions are actually defendable, while Ody’s actions were selfish.

“Eurylochus opened the wind bag, causing his crew to die!!”

Odysseus was the one that doxed himself to the cyclops in the first place? Literally none of the sagas would have happened if not for Odysseus.

“Eurylochus killed the cattle!”

He was starving, and hunger makes you do illogical things.

“Eurylochus committed a mutiny!”

Lol, if your best friend and captain just sacrificed six of your friends + planned to sacrifice you as well, how would you respond? That would be a knife in the gut, so Eurylochus was totally justified in committing a mutiny. Odysseus deserved it, and you can’t just expect Eurylochus to sit back and watch.

“Eurylochus did the “final blow” in dooming the crew because he killed the cattle!”

Um, no, Odysseus did the final blow when he sacrificed the entire crew to Zeus. It started with Odysseus, and ended with Odysseus, so I don’t know why y’all are demonizing Eurylochus for this.

Eurylochus is also a much better person than Odysseus, because he cared about Odysseus AND the crew. He also wanted to go home, but he prioritized the crew’s survival, unlike Odysseus.

Another argument I found interesting:

Now, im moving on to calypso.

Calypso was also imprisoned on an island when she was very young and was alone for a hundred years. That is much, much worse than being away from home for 20 years. Y’all are saying “suffering for 100 hundred years doesn’t justify imprisonment and supposed SA, but suffering for ten years TOTALLY justifies mass murder and torture.”

I don’t know if I emphasized this enough, but why is the white character so loved and praised for being flawed and complex, while the black character is hated for being complex and stripped of all her character. Eurylochus and calypso are demonized and reduced down to “mean dumb black person” while people treat Odysseus as if he he’s more complex than both of them.

Just look at how the fandom treats characters like Odysseus, Zeus, and Poseidon vs how they treat Eurylochus, antinous, and Calypso. In fact, Odysseus commits worse crimes than all three of these black characters and y’all still hate on these black characters more than the white ones? I’m surprised that Poseidon and Zeus don’t get as much hate as calypso and eurylochus. Guys?? Y’all telling me this is not fandom racism?

Y’all are sugarcoating Ody and turning his actions into a joke while calypso and eurylochus are literally given death threats? Y’all are not hating on Poseidon and Zeus but instead hate on the black characters that did not commit half of the atrocities the white characters did? Huh??

Not to mention, I’ve even seen people draw Poseidon as black, despite his voice actor being white. At this point, every single villain and aggressor in this musical is black now, and all of the non-white protagonists are whitewashed, like Polites, Aphrodite, and sometimes Ares.

Black characters in this musical are always demonized and stripped of their complexity, and are always seen as angry and aggressive. Calypso, despite having a softer nature, the fandom makes her a wicked, evil, angry black woman. Eurylochus, who is a much better person than Odysseus, is demonized and pitted against Odysseus. Antinous is also a very aggressive and disgusting character, and Jorge specifically asked for a black man to voice him. This made me feel weird, because why are the antagonists and aggressors ALWAYS black?

Black characters like calypso and Eurylochus are constantly being harassed. People give them death threats and put them in disgusting memes, and also harass people who support them. I’m so done with these haters

For anyone who wants to hate on me because I said calypso didn’t SA Ody, I have a post explaining it

Post by @polyestheresther

💬 1  🔁 2  ❤️ 6 · I don’t think calypso actually raped Odysseus in epic the musical. A lot of calypso haters say that “soon into bed we’ll cl

Y’all treat calypso and Eurylochus as if they did worse stuff than Odysseus. In fact, I’d say that Odysseus committed the WORST CRIMES out of all of these characters, yet y’all can still baby him. Guys???

Here are some disgusting memes directed towards black characters that I randomly found

That’s not even the worst of it, people actually give death threats and harass these characters and those who support them.

That’s the entire rant, don’t cyber bully me for this

[fiveforchibis]

Tweaks I would make to Epic the Musical (while changing as few songs as possible) to make the theming more consistent.

As a note I personally disagree with the chosen theme and message. But I think compelling narratives can still come from themes I dislike (Dune is a great example of this). Epic's theming, however, also feels a little inconsistent.

1. Neoptolemus should have killed Astyanax, not Odysseus.

2. Polites should have died by Poseidon's trident at the start of Ruthlessness.

3. There should have been a song where the crew argues over opening the bag while Odysseus is asleep.

4. More attention should have been drawn to the fact that Odysseus is Hermes' grandson.

I think just these 4 changes would do a ton to better establish narrative cohesion. Explanation under the read more.

1.

"Just a Man" is currently in conflict with the contrast of 'man' vs. 'monster' set up by the rest of the musical. In this song 'just a man' is used to mean 'I'm therefore weak to my own fear and will kill this infant to avoid that fear'. 'Man' however in the rest of the musical is used to mean 'not willing to do what it takes/paralyzed by moral indecision'. This is in contrast to a 'monster' as someone who is willing to resort to ruthlessness and brutality in pursuit of their goals.

Having Odysseus chicken out last second, and Achilles' brutal son doing the job instead would better align the song with the themes of the musical without having to fundamentally change any lyrics except the very last part. In this version Odysseus is 'Just a Man' because he can't bring himself to do it. But he's also 'Just a Man' because he can't bring himself to stop Neoptolemus either (again that moral indecision). This would make the return of the "don't make me do this" leimotif in Thunderbringer all the more poignant now that Odysseus chooses the brutal option where before he refused to do so.

It also makes Odysseus' journey from man to monster feel a lot more believable. Kinda hard to argue he's not a monster from the get go when he kicks things off with baby killing.

2.

'Open Arms' as a philosophy needed more time to settle in before Ruthlessness came in to pull the rug out from under those ideals.

Killing the 'Open Arms' spokesman at the start of "Ruthlessness" would have really hit the point home. BUT it would have also allowed the Cyclops and Wind God arcs to be better tied into the 'Open Arms' theme. Setting up a starker contrast when Ruthlessness comes in.

Instead of letting Odysseus' ego and rage get the better of him Polites should have convinced him to give the Cyclops his name as an act of mercy. His friends had abandoned him to his pain because he was acting like a fool claiming 'Nobody' was hurting him. Having a name would at least give him the means to better call for help. Yes this is less accurate to the original story, but the original story's theme was hubris, not ruthlessness. This shift lines up better with the new theme.

Polites can also be there encourage Odysseus to approach the Wind God with open arms to once again reinforce Odysseus' prevailing philosophy in the arc. Once again serving for great contrast when "Ruthlessness" makes its debut.

3.

From a practical point of view a song sung by the crew at this point would give Odysseus' singer a break during an actual show. But I also think this is a missed opportunity to better establish the crew as their own characters, foreshadow "Mutiny", and present a weakening of Polites "Open Arms" influence right before "Ruthlessness".

4.

This is just to make "600 Strikes" a little more believable and clarify why Hermes is so willing to help out even after Athena abandoned Odysseus. A lot of artists have interpreted the chorus of "600 Strikes" as the literal ghosts of Odysseus' crew dragging Poseidon down. This isn't entirely unprecedented in Greek myth, vengeful spirits are a thing, and Poseidon is considered particularly terrifying because death at sea often denies a person a proper burial (Greeks love their burial rights). So giving Odysseus 600 vengeful spirits at his side is actually a not a bad way to explain a mortal getting the upperhand on a god in his own domain. If this were foreshadowed a bit by connecting Odysseus to Hermes, and Hermes', as a psychopomp, to spirits with a few throwaway lines in a couple songs it would have made 600 Strikes feel more earned. No I'm not suggesting giving Odysseus death powers. Just give him a tangible connection to the dead that makes his conquest of Poseidon fitting with pre-existing character traits.

[foeheidgwi]

I think some people in the Epic Fandom misunderstood what Odysseus did in the Thunder Saga, and it's honestly bothering me.

Some fans seems to excuse Odysseus's action in the Thunder Saga. More specifically Scylla's lair and the sacrifice of 6 men that inevitably would have lead to the mutiny.

Epic's version differes from the Odyssey poem. Odysseus and his crew, in the poem, knew what will happen when they sail near Scylla's lair, 6 of them will be taken, and that doesn't exclude Odysseus. With heavy heart they sail next to it.

Epic's Odysseus on the other hand? He didn't base it on chances, but rather used the fact that his crew didn't know what Scylla was to his advantage. He changed the stakes where he had 100% chance of survival by marking 6 of the crew with a torch in hand for Scylla.

And this where some of the fandom excuses his action, "he didn't have a choice" or "It was either that or Posiden", and rather put all the blame of the saga onto Eurylochus. This doesn't only take away from how smart and cunning Odysseus was, but his desperation to get home, his will to sacrifice anyone to reach it. Odysseus had choices, he chose the one that secured his safety.

The Musical acknowledges that aspect of Odysseus. Scylla's lines "We must do what it takes to survive" and "We are the same you and I". His break down in Calypso's Island, haunted by his past. His line "As I traded friends like objects I could use" in Would You Fall in Love With Me.

Which leads to the unfair look on the mutiny. In the Odyssey, it was due to prolonged hunger on the island and the sad truth of how long they have been fighting. In Epic, it was a moment of realization for the crew, 6 of their men were sacrificed, on purpose, and their captain knew it will happen. It was a mixture of fear, anger and betrayal, if he did that to secure his safety, what guarantee he won't sacrifice one of them next time?

But that was my Ted talk

[moon-x0]

Guys epic fans

Specifically Eury haters

I need to know your thought process

Why do you hate my boy? (Do know if you reply there is a 90% chance I will respond and I will be defending Eury)

[polyestheresther]

I don’t think calypso actually raped Odysseus in epic the musical. A lot of calypso haters say that “soon into bed we’ll climb” is implying that calypso raped Ody. Uhh, SA isn’t something that can be “implied”. If calypso really SAd Odysseus, he would not have said “I love you, but not in the way that you want me to” to Calypso.

You can also say that Odysseus was saying nice things get out of the island, but calypso would have let him go regardless because Hermes told her to. There is no reason to be nice to her if he was SA’d. If Odysseus really was SA’d, he would not have comforted calypso in NSFLY

Also, she was banished to an island when she was very young, so she might have mental issues from being alone for too long, and she was not properly educated before being sent to an island. However that is my interpretation so you can also say that she did know better, but don’t say that “calypso knew better, and that is canon”

It’s also pretty clear that Calypso’s intentions are to get Odysseus to stay on her island and get him to love her, because she is an isolated goddess who wants Ody’s company. Why would she keep Odysseus on her island to rape him? She wants love and company, not a sex slave.

Also, the odyssey and epic are two different things, so you can’t just say “calypso SAd Odysseus in odyssey so she SAd Odysseus in epic.”

[polyestheresther]

The Epic Debate Club :)

Epic Debate Club • Community on Tumblr

A community for Epic the musical fans to debate their headcanons and opinions

[insert-clever-username-1133]

me being negative and a little ranty about some fans

epic calypso they can never make me like you. but they can never make me hate you as much as some of these people do for either the odyssey version that is literally basically a different character or just straight up for seemingly no reason