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Transcript for Episode 36: Interview with Mensah Demary

Episode duration: 1:11:58

JENN: Hi, this is Jenn. Welcome to the latest episode of the Minorities in Publishing podcast. For those who are new or who are recurring listeners you know to find the podcast at minoritiesinpublishing.tumblr.com and on Twitter at @MinoritiesInPub. You can also subscribe to the podcast on iTunes and I'm going to say this now because I always forget to say it at the end of the episode, you can also rate the podcast on iTunes which actually helps as I've been told. But I've always obsessed with the conversation more than the ratings. But you can do that. That'd be awesome. I'm prefacing this episode by saying we're in Brooklyn Public Library which is really nice. I haven't been to many of the areas. And that we're next to kiddie yoga which we did not know was happening when we came here. [Laughs] So if you hear little squeals of any sort that's kiddie yoga in the background, not me doing anything to the guest.

Speaking of, today's guest is Mensah Demary, editor at Catapult, writer of fiction and non-fiction even though primarily you've been doing more non-fiction now.

MENSAH: Non-fiction, yeah.

JENN: And unfortunately by the time this episode airs he will have already read at HiFi Reading but I will make sure to have noted that on the podcast page. So thank you so much Mensah for coming in on a Saturday.

MENSAH: No, thank you. Like I said before we setup thank you for coming down to Park Slope. It was like a relatively quick black car ride to get here so thank you for making the trek down here from Harlem, right? Or further?

JENN: I'm in Queens.

MENSAH: Wow, that's what I thought. Yeah. So have a drink or something for making the trip.

JENN: Oh, no. I will guess the drink when they come all the way up to Columbia. [Laughs] So it's a circuitous thing where . . . [Laughs]

MENSAH: Fair enough.

JENN: And, yeah, I'm really excited about this kiddie yoga. [Laughs]

MENSAH: Yeah, it looks a little hardcore with the mats.

JENN: Yeah, I'm really psyched to hear how this is going to go. [Laughs] Systemic racism giggles. [Laughs]

MENSAH: We don't need to be next to woke people.

JENN: [Laughs] We're both woke.

MENSAH: Actually could use that.

JENN: That levity, right?

MENSAH: Yeah.

JENN: Yeah. I like to have laughter in episodes.

MENSAH: They're good. I always -- I don't listen to a lot of podcasts much anymore but usually sometimes either the monologue is sometimes too long or it's a little dry.

JENN: Yeah.

MENSAH: It's sort of a back-and-forth interview. So levity in conversation is always good so I'm glad to . . .

JENN: Oh, thank you again for coming. I'm a huge fan because I've been following a lot of your posts specifically in Catapult. But I will read more of what other people are reading in Catapult as well. [Laughs] And one of your essays that stuck out the most was “This is How You Become an Editor” which I encourage listeners to read and we'll make sure to also post for those who may not have seen it on the podcast page and social media as well. And it's a great segue into the first question which is always how did you get into the industry? Which kind of seems moot because now I know. [Laughs] You give a very detailed account of how you got here, where you're going, what your interests are. But for those who haven't read it would you like to talk about how those opportunities you mentioned in the essay, working for Catapult most specifically, came about?

MENSAH: So the essay . . . the essay itself I had no plan of really writing at the time. Yuka Igarashi, our web editor chief, and I were sort of preparing for launch and they asked me if I wanted to write a piece. And I was sort of in the whirlwind of at that time I was at Catapult maybe four weeks.

JENN: Really?

MENSAH: So I was still sort of -- yeah. So there was still a bit of euphoria after leaving my previous job and I wrote it. In broad strokes the piece sort of covers my professional arc and the idea was just to show that there's more than one way to get to where you want to go if your goal is to work in publishing or some sort of literary or media fashion. So I've been writing since I don't know, 1998?

JENN: Yeah. At the time you were writing more fiction you had said?

MENSAH: When I started. I mean this was towards the end of high school. I did that in poet -- excuse me, fiction, but I wrote primarily poetry which in a strange way sort of melted to essays in sort of a poetic form. Like it was more free-verse. It was more just trying to get ideas out and sort of, you know, as I was growing older and my life was changing trying to capture all that in a voice I didn't know I had. You know, I sort of started to write sort of on a whim in high school and then just sort of gravitated to it.

Anyway, from there editorially I . . . so I started my literary magazine or website Specter with my ex-wife -- my then wife -- and that was the first time I called myself an editor. And in the piece I sort of said it in passing and tongue-in-cheek but I wanted to become an editor so I called myself an editor. So it was almost like that hubris or hubristic thought at that time of I'm going to do this. So perception is half of it maybe. And then just give it a try. And all I had, like I said in the piece, was my literary tastes and things I liked to read which was growing and changing and sort of what I liked to read online.

With respect to Catapult they reached out. I was invited to interview for my position. Our publisher Andy Hunter who also founded Electric Literature and helped launch Literary Hub reached out to me about this position for Catapult which I had heard of but wasn't really sure what it was. They were sort of mum about what our business would look like. I interviewed for it, interviewed again this time with him and Yuka, and a few weeks later I got the offer and sort of put in my two-week notice the very next day [Laughs] at my last job and just got to work. So I would encourage people to read the essay if they want to know a little bit more. I'm glossing over a lot but that's sort of in very broad strokes my literary arc as far as a career is concerned.

JENN: But also what was to me most noticeable -- I mean the title itself is very instructional in a way and then you come into it not necessarily realizing it's a personal essay. And the depth that you go into is so precise in terms of this is what I was going through and this is what stage I'm at and let's rewind. But let's rewind again and let's rewind even further and how there was this kind of zig-zaggy path but what's the through line is that you loved writing.

MENSAH: Right. Yes.

JENN: And you loved books. So eventually you found . . .

MENSAH: Yeah, I think . . .

JENN: Or you think you would have eventually regardless?

MENSAH: Well, that's a good question. I mean it sort of happened backwards. Like my love for writing has always been there from the very beginning. That was like when I first started writing again towards the end of high school, so I was 17, about to turn 18, writing very quickly became a central point in my life. It became this thing where it was easy to carve out time after school. Even at this time because I was already accepted to college at Temple University, so if you remember being a senior in high school, when you get that college acceptance letter -- assuming you go to college -- high school is sort of like eh, I'm just going to ride it out now.

JENN: [Laughs]

MENSAH: And sort of do the best I can so I don't ruin this, but I'm good to go. So I had this time where I could just . . . I didn't know it at the time; this is all retrospect. I just kind of focused on writing. But the love for reading came later. And so I had to reach a point at some time to . . . I started reading more instructionally, whether it was elements of craft, elements of what makes a good story work, makes a good piece of prose work. But then I just started devouring books and I just realized I loved everything I was reading. Even things I didn't like it was okay because I got something from it.

So yeah in an essence I was going to get to reading anyway. Like if I wanted to be a serious writer I had to come to that, you know? And I think for most writers it's the other way around. So you start with the love for reading and you think I want to write a story. You have all these stories in your head.

So, yeah, I think I would've came to it eventually and probably much sooner perhaps had I not dropped out of college, perhaps if I'd went more the MFA route or an English degree route. Sort of that prerequisite of having to read and sort of developing that love that way.

[10:23]

JENN: Do you think in regards to not reading as much, was that . . . you know, we talk a lot about mirrors of windows specifically and the lack of mirrors and the abundance of windows especially when we talk about marginalized voices. Do you think that might have been part of the aspect of why you may not have been as interested in the reading part and just wanted to delve right into the creation?

MENSAH: No. I think -- and this isn't to blame my parents who are well-educated and gave myself and my three siblings a pretty decent middle-class life in New Jersey. But of all the things they sort of instilled in us reading for pleasure wasn't really a thing that was sort of instilled. You know, which is curious because my family . . . my father has a PhD. My mother has her nursing license and studied for it. They clearly had to read and I think they viewed reading as sort of a thing . . . it was like in furtherance to reach a goal, whatever that end goal would be. So reading wasn't the end goal itself. It was more like, you know, you should go to college, get a degree, sort of like that . . . you know, at that time in the mid- to late-80s, sort of like that Cliff and Clair Huxtable thing of "You're going to go to college. You're going to be an upstanding member -- a productive member of society."

JENN: Yeah. Pay taxes.

MENSAH: Right. And that was more . . . I mean and that's not to say they were rigorous about that and that's not to say we didn't have fun as a family but that's what they instilled. So from the beginning reading wasn't really taught to us, at least in my recollections, as a joyful thing to do. It was more work than anything else.

JENN: Interesting. That's so interesting. And that kind of goes into a question I'm going to ask later about what you had mentioned at The Hustle about reading as entertainment and why it doesn't seem to be seen as such.

MENSAH: Right. We'll come back to that. I have a lot to say about that. [Laughs]

JENN: Yes we will. [Laughs] But coming back to the “This is How You Become an Editor” essay you also mentioned -- and I love this line -- "The creative class is a privileged one." And that privileged, the P word. That's something . . .

MENSAH: The P word.

JENN: I mean that's almost becoming as bad as the R word in some people's minds.

MENSAH: I think so.

JENN: And especially when we talk about the majority.

MENSAH: It's sort of like ubiquitous use and sort of like random appearance now. It's like anything you read online, it's a curious word now.

JENN: Yeah. Yeah. And people are offended by it.

MENSAH: It's become a loaded word. It's not an offensive word in and of itself. I think because the word has sort of been lifted out of our lexicon it's sort of applied on a sociopolitical level what it means to have economic disparity between classes, between races, and sort of how that system has positioned itself for some to get everything and most people get nothing.

JENN: Yeah. Yeah.

MENSAH: And it can split right down the racial lines. Bringing up privilege and instilling all of that into it, to say nothing of the emotional part of feeling like what's mine is mine and I don't want anybody else to take it and I don't trust the "others" over here. So privileged as a word is like a lightning rod and I think it's going to be even more so of one this year particularly with the election going on. I think it's going to show up so much more.

JENN: Well also the word diversity has become kind of a trigger word. There's that article, I think it was in Salon, where I believe it was a woman who's hapa, who's part-Asian, part-white. I think hapa if I'm pronouncing it correctly. She said diversity as a word is for white people. But it's this umbrella term. It's become that umbrella term of the words diversity, privilege, equity, marginalization. Those are the buzzwords that pop up constantly. And when you say the creative class is a privileged one, and we're talking about it becoming kind of this thunderous word, do you think -- even being a creative or having the opportunity to be a creative and being marginalized, or maybe not even being marginalized in the sense of being creative and being paid to be creative -- do you think that's an important part of the conversation as well? To acknowledge that aspect of privilege when we're . . .

MENSAH: Yes because I think the word appears where it appears in a sense because -- and it was an editorial decision -- because it was placing an onus on the creative class, however you define that. And I didn't . . . in that phrase I didn't make any distinctions as far as the white creative class or black creative class. It's like all of us. You know, I think so because even though -- and this is something I've had to come to grips with maybe in the six months I've been at Catapult now in sort of what that means to be a "gatekeeper" in indie publishing or even New York City publishing -- that as a creative class we have to recognize that a large part of entry into the class, if you, will is access.

JENN: Yes.

MENSAH: Which is to say -- and I went into detail in the piece -- is how in the hell can you get into the creative class if you don't know where the doors are? If you don't know . . . to say nothing of whether or not you can say do an unpaid internship, whether you can afford to take on six-figure college debt to get a degree from The New School or NYU or Columbia or wherever else in the nation or the world. Access is so important because in sort of my recollection in writing the piece I realized a lot of time would've been saved if I knew about a lot of things that were available possibly. And a consequence or a cause of that has been because I didn't go to college. I dropped out of college twice.

And so there's sort of these built-in networks or you sort of begin to build networks as you go through school, as you begin to meet professors and your fellow students, and you all have sort of similar goals. It's kind of hard for someone who's not in that realm to know about access. And so my argument is we as the creative class independent of race have an obligation to provide access to as many people who want to be creatives as possible.

JENN: Yeah.

MENSAH: That's what -- you know, now for me I have specific goals in mind. I want to employ as many Black creatives as possible. I want to give access to as many Black writers and Black editors and would-be editors, as many opportunities as possible. But that's just me, you know?

JENN: Yeah.

MENSAH: But also if I see someone who's white and I can pair them up with somebody else and they collaborate on a project then that's all for the betterment of what we would call the creative class and the various industries we work within.

JENN: Yeah. Yeah. I was talking to friends about this a couple of weeks ago and one was wondering if privilege meant opportunity. I mean, to rephrase, she was wondering if she was privileged because she had access to people. And other people said "Oh, well that's more opportunity. You had that opportunity to meet so-and-so. You had that opportunity to meet such-and-such to get that information, to get that agent, to get that." But that's also part of that access.

MENSAH: I think so. And I mean at some point -- I mean you sort of . . . at some point it becomes semantics because it's almost like well, you get to this point and what the hell does privilege even mean anymore? But we're not going to have that conversation.

JENN: Yeah. [Laughs]

MENSAH: I'll just say the generally-accepted term I believe as you and I are using it, I don't know if opportunity is independent of privilege. I know that by having opportunities it affords you a certain amount of privilege which may not be a bad thing. And that's the interesting thing about the word privilege. Privilege in and of itself isn't an evil thing. When we speak of privilege in terms of say white privilege for example, it's sort of . . . it's insistence on keeping the self alive and therefore shutting out anybody who wants in. So it sort of fuels itself.

But that's a separate systemic issue from the larger conversation of privilege because you can still be privileged and still grant access. You know, you can still use your privilege for some kind of social good or some kind of business or corporate good or any -- you know, if the feeling is we need more black editors in this particular newsroom, to use your privilege to not only speak to the people within the newsroom because you're in the room there but the people who work outside the newsroom, the executive editors, the publishers, the executives within a particular corporate entity, you know, that's a great thing to be able to do. So it's really what are you doing with the privilege you have been granted as a creative? That's sort of how I look at it. I don't know if anybody or everybody would agree with that but it's . . . I guess I don't believe in pure evil entities or structures. It's just how we choose to use them.

[21:16]

JENN: Yeah.

MENSAH: White privilege, it exists because there's a self-serving nature involved where I want to be . . . we dominate someone and continue to dominate because I benefit from it as opposed to sort of relinquishing that privilege or using it for some kind of expansion of access I suppose.

JENN: When I refer to it I usually say it's kind of like AA in that you need to first acknowledge you have a problem.

MENSAH: Yeah.

JENN: And like you said privilege isn't necessarily a problem because you don't always have control over that.

MENSAH: Right.

JENN: We can't control how we were born or how the whole society looks at us. But I think it's necessary for people to at least, like you say, the creative class or privileged one, you're stating that as fact. And for others you say well, yeah, I have this privilege. Because then you get into the mess of Oscars So White that happened online this past weekend where Chris Rock "had privilege" because he was on that Oscar stage and he had the opportunity to talk. And then other people said "Well you didn't talk about Latinos and you didn't talk about Asians and you didn't talk about Native Americans." And we're not even going to talk about that bad joke with the kids, the Asian . . .

MENSAH: Yeah.

JENN: [Laughs]

MENSAH: Just gloss . . .

JENN: We will acknowledge that was not cool. [Laughs]

MENSAH: It happened. Let's move on.

JENN: But, you know, when someone has that access is that kind of a target on the back in certain ways?

MENSAH: I could see how it would be because you can't please everyone and you can't . . . you know, Chris Rock was in a very . . . I didn't watch the Oscars.

JENN: Did you watch the monologue and then tune out? Or none of it?

MENSAH: I didn't watch the monologue. I actually -- I did read the transcript from the New York Times later when they posted it. And I did see some clips afterwards. But he was in a very . . . it was an interesting position he was put in. In part sort of this call led by Jada Pinkett Smith, sort of like let's boycott the Oscars. And he had to sort of weigh what to do with that privilege of being the host of the Oscars and would it serve a greater purpose or a better purpose in his mind to do it versus say boycott?

I'm glad he did it. I'm glad he went up anyway and he didn't sit out. But making that choice means that he put that proverbial target on his back because now you're up there. Everybody is sort of amped. Everybody knows Chris Rock at this point in his career. We know that he can say some really insightful yet biting comments. And, you know, I'm not going to critique his monologue. I will just say he did the best he could I think with the very awkward position he was in, which is I have the privilege of being on this stage and I'm going to exercise it the best way I can.

JENN: Yeah.

MENSAH: I think that's all he did. [Laughs] And for that it's commendable in many ways. But that's an example of using his privilege. Because he could've just as easily -- though no one expected it, he could've just as easily went up there as a host and not mentioned anything about race.

JENN: That's true.

MENSAH: Now he would've been dragged on Twitter for it, but what does Twitter mean to Chris Rock when he's on the stage of the Oscars? I don't know.

JENN: And got his paycheck. [Laughs]

MENSAH: Right. He got his paycheck. I'm sure he got his grab bag with God knows what. And, you know, unfortunately it wasn't a great show from what I've heard. It was the lowest-rated in seven years. But all that's to say I'm glad you brought him up because I think that's what it means to have privilege even when you're "marginalized" yet using an exercise and a privilege in a manner that speaks to power. What he said, maybe some parts of it were great, some of it didn't work, some of the bits and jokes worked and some of them didn't. But he was speaking to power the entire night, or at least he made the attempt -- his best attempt to do it.

JENN: Yeah.

MENSAH: I think that's what it means.

JENN: Yeah. And so circling back to what we were mentioning about like you were saying your parents looked at reading as a way to get somewhere, especially maybe I guess connecting education as many people do to monetary wealth in a way. And it's interesting that it kind of should be that way. Maybe it should be; maybe it shouldn't be. Maybe I'll cut that out. [Laughs]

MENSAH: It's tricky now. It's like return-on-investment.

JENN: Yeah, yeah.

MENSAH: Do I spend so much money and I think I'm going to make 40% more of that when it's all said and done? It's a numbers game after a while.

JENN: Yeah. Especially my friends who are paying their medical school still, off medical school, and I'm thinking you're making a lot of money. It's "I don't get sleep. [Laughs] I might kill somebody." I'm like okay, I'll stick with the MFA then.

MENSAH: Where'd you study?

JENN: New School which I paid off last month.

MENSAH: Okay. Yeah.

JENN: Ten years. Nine-and-a-half.

MENSAH: I had this dream of going to The New School when I still lived in Jersey and then I looked at the cost of tuition and I just sort of let that dream go.

JENN: Yeah. Yeah.

MENSAH: And just sort of walked away.

JENN: Well ten years ago it wasn't -- knock on wood -- that bad. And compared to NYU and Columbia it's one of the lower ones.

MENSAH: Yeah.

JENN: But CUNY is still a very good option. Brooklyn is very good.

MENSAH: I've heard a lot of good things.

JENN: Hunter has built up their MFA program.

MENSAH: There's a lot going on in the smaller schools, the colleges.

JENN: Yeah.

MENSAH: It's great. It'd good stuff. And they seem to be churning out pretty quality, decent writers in their own right who are coming out and working in good positions or . . .

JENN: I hope so because when you're an adjunct -- and that's the problem with a lot of MFA programs is if you're adjuncting you're not getting paid a lot. Your hours are ridiculous. You're more than likely trying to write your book while you're trying to help someone else write their book. And in my case a lot of the kids there were basically wasting time. Like I don't want to grow up yet so mom and dad help me pay for a masters. While I was working a full-time job.

MENSAH: Right.

JENN: And then going to classes at night and then going home while they were drinking and then going to their dorms.

MENSAH: So they were privileged but did you think they were bad because they had the privilege? Or was it just like you've got yours and I've got mine? I'm sorry for interviewing you. [Laughs]

JENN: It was only -- oh no, no. [Laughs] The first rule! No, it was only because I was a serious writer. I'm using air quotes. Because I was here to learn craft and I wanted to become a better writer. And when you're in a workshop with people who don't really care and whose parents are paying for it it makes it a very different vibe in terms of "Well, yeah, I didn't get to read your story this weekend."

MENSAH: Interesting.

JENN: Yeah, or "I thought you did a pretty decent job." While I'm sitting there trying to become better and it's like I really wanted to talk about the nuance in . . . and they don't care. They don't care. So yeah. [Laughs]

MENSAH: So there's that.

JENN: 25K. [Laughs] Paid off.

MENSAH: A year? Or just . . .

JENN: In total. Which again if you look at the numbers today for MFA programs . . .

MENSAH: That's not too bad.

JENN: It's kind of a drop in the bucket.

MENSAH: Yeah, I've heard twice and sometimes three times as much.

JENN: Yeah. And NYU? Oh, I had a friend who was . . . she was paying rent basically. She went to NYU for four years and she was paying $700 a month for her loan.

MENSAH: God bless her.

JENN: Yeah. Yeah, so I think they've paid that off.

MENSAH: I hope so.

JENN: So you didn't miss much in that. [Laughs]

[30:05]

MENSAH: No, apparently not. No. No.

JENN: You probably went the better route financially. [Laughs]

MENSAH: I like to say creatively if I went the MFA route I probably would've saved myself ten years. I think -- I forget who, I think maybe Matt Johnson, said something to that effect ten years ago. But the con is I would've been saddled with . . .

JENN: Ten years of debt.

MENSAH: Yes. I don't know. But anyway that's for another time. I don't know if I missed a lot. I certainly am happy I don't have that much debt. I just have the usual credit card debt.

JENN: Oh, I've got that too. [Laughs] It's just nice to get that other one out of the way. The credit card . . .

MENSAH: But there's enough debt to go around.

JENN: Especially if you live in New York City. Oh, yeah, you just -- I feel like if you . . . I'm from here but I feel like if you move, if you're from Jersey, it's kind of like you get your apartment and then it's like "Here's your debt! Bye! Welcome to New York!" That's your welcome package. [Laughs]

MENSAH: Given the cost of living here I would prefer some other housewarming gift. But it's tough. You know, the students whether they're interning or they're freelance writing, if they're lucky they have some sort of editorial assistant position. Anyone who's trying to make it here saddled with college debt as they're literally almost giving out, you know, more power to them. It's hard to do it. I consider myself an adult and I'm trying to do "adult things" every day and trying to pay bills. It's hard. So I can't imagine doing this like ten years ago when I was like 25.

JENN: Oh my gosh, yeah.

MENSAH: I would've . . . I would've washed out a long time ago.

JENN: I was married at the time myself so it was easier because there were two incomes and now there aren't. [Laughs] And it's gotten more expensive. Reality checks. But coming back to that whole monetary -- it always comes back to money.

MENSAH: It does.

JENN: It's so funny. It always comes back to money. Where you were saying it was interesting and worth more scrutiny as to why books as a form of media haven't caught the same popularity as movies, TV, and music. So I'm wondering, and I think you have brought this up which is why it's been in my head for so long, because for us reading is just such an enjoyable thing.

MENSAH: Yeah.

JENN: Especially if you like the book and you can get immersed in the world. I'm including comics and graphic novels with the visual mediums as well, and picture books. Is there kind of an elitist aspect to it? Or really a kind of club that seems even harder to get into than perhaps other visual mediums. Because then I think back to even slavery.

MENSAH: Okay.

JENN: And how the power of reading was denied. You know, that was illegal. You can get killed. So many bad things can happen if you're found reading a book.

MENSAH: Right.

JENN: And there's an element it seems of power which came back to when you mentioned the elitist aspect of it.

MENSAH: I don't know.

JENN: Maybe I'm reading too deeply into it but I definitely feel like you were on to something with that whole elevation of books. You know, kind of separation of . . .

MENSAH: There's this weird . . . there's this weird sort of form of dissonance within the active readings. So you have -- or not active reading, but sort of book publishing in general. So in any other industry like say fashion or movies or television if you become a star and you become big enough and you make enough money at some point you write a book. So that's just sort of the blueprint of . . . you know, Jay-Z wrote a book at some point. Stars sort of . . . it's like a stepping stone or a rung on a ladder up to some larger goal.

JENN: A lot of celebrities have been writing. Like you said memoirs, but also kids' books.

MENSAH: Yeah, which is great. Which is, you know, I don't begrudge celebrities doing books. The point is . . .

JENN: That crossover.

MENSAH: That crossover between books sort of being an end goal for those considering themselves "literary" or those who consider themselves writers and those who write books and may very well as celebrities get on the best sellers lists. But they're not trying to be some sort of literary writers.

So reading being elitist or books being an elitist object, I don't . . . books and their relationship to this country has been very odd, in part because of slavery. Actually I think a large part of that because it was this systemic act of keeping literacy away from an entire population of people.

JENN: Yeah.

MENSAH: And there's no . . . there's really no sure way of cleaving a population's ability to prosper over time, generationally, than to rob it of literacy.

JENN: Which is robbing you of information.

MENSAH: Right. Because when, you know, the printing press was invented and people who used to have to go to their church and listen to their priests deliver what they believed to be the interpretation of the Bible, all of that changed. That power sort of changed the minute the printing press started churning out Bibles that the common man or farmer or whoever can buy or save up and have. And they can learn to read on their own.

And it empowers and then sort of triggers new thought and when that happens revolution begins at that point. So there's power within books, but in this nation I don't know if . . . it's hard to tell because maybe if I grew up when there was no television, no Internet, maybe reading was a bigger activity, but relative to now I think it's not elitist to read a book and it's not elitist to be a lover of books.

My question at The Hustle that you're referring to as sort of a positive is why aren't more people reading? And maybe like you said in the outset we're both lovers of books so maybe I'm coming from a narrow point-of-view. I like books and not everybody . . . you know, some people actually don't like music and some people don't like movies. I get it. But I just want more people to read and I don't know why more people don't read. Now we see sort of a bump in independent book sales over the last year-over-year if you look at the percentages, but there has been an increase in 2015, so I don't know what that means. Sort of, you know, as the economy tries to sputter along hopefully that'll continue to grow.

You know, I just . . . I posit the idea because I really just think that if more people read and there's more access to books nothing but good will come out of that. And maybe that's a pie in the sky idea. So it's just wanting to see sort of my art that I love just sort of expand. And with that comes the expansion of access I think -- I hope.

And let's not forget the fact that . . . this all sort of wraps back into privilege because I don't know if reading is an elitist act but I know that what you read determines at least editorially what you like and don't like and it determines what you're willing to publish and what you don't publish. So maybe in essence it can be perceived as elitist if you read all white men and then you wonder why if does a count of who you publish during a year it's 60 or 70 or 75 percent male. The connection is obvious.

So editors reading more broadly will perhaps start to change that a little bit and sort of . . . you know, if there are any elitist attitudes towards say reading more black women writers then that's something that needs to be addressed on the editorial side and can be if people are just willing to see the value in different voices and "marginalized" voices.

JENN: For me at least it seems like there are more outlets -- digital media outlets -- that are hiring diverse contributors or at least continually discussing the lack of wider representation. And when I think of those outlets specifically I'm thinking BuzzFeed and Catapult, The Toast, The Establishment, The Root obviously which is very specific to African-Americans or the African diaspora I should say. But do you think there's a sense with the new upstarts taking into their hands what they aren't seeing and that that is being more or less welcome to diverse voices? And also it feels like they're also doing more outreach. I feel like BuzzFeed has been doing the outreach.

[40:15]

MENSAH: Yeah, there's definitely . . . there's been this sort of call to action. I'm not sure where it comes from, but this sense of like -- and we talk about it internally and with colleagues I have or just sort of people I know in different conversations. It's important to sort of, you know, if you're a "gatekeeper," it's important to sort of reach out and sort of extend the hand. You know, "marginalized voices" may not feel comfortable reaching out to you 1) unless they've read your work and they're like oh, they seem inclusive or whatever and I'll give them a shot; or 2) the idea might be show the proof. So you've got to make the reach or let me see that you're going to publish different voices before I feel comfortable sort of submitting my work cold or sending pitches. And I think newer media outlets realize that that outreach is so key. And it's so . . . it's an easy thing to do. Like it's not . . .

JENN: Really easy.

MENSAH: It doesn't have to be an elaborate project or something that -- you know, putting up a call for a special issue for black writers or just publishing black writers.

JENN: [Laughs]

MENSAH: That's all you've got to do.

JENN: More than your two friends.

MENSAH: Right. Right. Right, you know? Sort of less about coming out and saying "We're for marginalized voices. We're for marginalized voices." And more just like just doing it. And I think -- you know, so it depends. And BuzzFeed and their Emerging Writers Fellowship, that was when it was announced it was a big deal and rightfully so because it indicated I think to the literary community and those "marginalized voices" within it, particularly . . . it allowed them to feel like okay, BuzzFeed is making an effort to want to hear from me.

And that was a big deal, but more importantly or just as importantly it's just hiring people of color. It's hiring women. It's employing people and putting them in positions that they can make decisions about whatever vertical or whatever content that you're putting out in the world, whatever books you're trying to publish.

And I don't know if newer companies are more open to that but I think they recognize its importance and they recognize it's a benefit to make that ask and sort of reach out and try to make that connection. Not everybody's doing it so I'm not saying it's like utopia or across the board everything is great. And much more needs to be done, particularly in the editorial side.

JENN: Yeah.

MENSAH: But, yeah, it's good to see places like The Toast and I love The Establishment. I'm glad that more and more people are gravitating to Catapult and recognize what we're trying to publish. We publish things that we like and we do have a rather diverse team.

JENN: Yeah.

MENSAH: And a rather diverse portfolio of people we publish so far at least on the website. And just as much importance in the books that we publish and the instructors who teach our classes. I think it's equally important that representation appears throughout our three arms of our business.

JENN: Yeah, yeah. Definitely check out Catapult for their workshops and classes because Ashley Ford has done . . .

MENSAH: Ashley Ford.

JENN: Angela . . .

MENSAH: Angela Flournoy has done one. Ashley -- who is my friend so if I mess up then she'll just punch me in my arm.

JENN: [Laughs]

MENSAH: At least two classes. This might be her third this semester. It's escaping my memory right now. And so yeah, we're . . . I believe Daniel Jose Older might be teaching for us. I hope so. Daniel, if you're listening, you should definitely do that. [Laughs] So it's good to see these so many different voices at particular key points in their career. I think that's -- you know, Angela being nominated for an NBA, Ashley as her profile continues to rise and deservedly so, Daniel with his books -- his series of books -- building a very quick and large following.

You know, it matters for students to see these instructors as truly emerging and starting to break out into their careers and starting to see oh, okay, I can see how this looks as someone gets their first book or gets whatever kind of . . . then negotiations that occur and getting a book deal or anything like that. Just again access. Being able to see and talk to people who've gone through it before you.

JENN: Yeah. And seeing those faces because I'm formulating a panel with Sackett Street Writers' Workshop of primarily voices of color and of other marginalization. But to let people see that they work in the industry.

MENSAH: Right.

JENN: And that they can answer your questions. And you don't have to be marginalized to come to this discussion but it would help to see and hear this from people of color, people in the LGBTQ or who identify as disabled, just so it's like oh, right, publishing is diverse.

MENSAH: Right.

JENN: However you want to use the term. So these are the types of people that are there and they can't answer my questions and they are valid in terms of the work that they do and things like that. So it is so important to see them as instructors, as leaders, to bestow knowledge so-to-speak.

MENSAH: Right, because there's levels to representation, right? We can publish all the different diverse voices that we can find but it's a different metric altogether when you start applying these different voices and these different minds to editorial and . . .

JENN: Marketing.

MENSAH: In marketing and instructional positions where they can influence the market as opposed to react to it within whatever given position that they've been bestowed. Instead sort of being proactive and sort of enforcing and sort of influencing and sort of exacting a kind of power on the market that says at the very least like "Hey, these books are here for you."

JENN: Yeah.

MENSAH: And getting them out here more and more and more. And it's all because it's all based on the belief that there's a readership out there or a number of readerships that are underserved. And so it's always this funny conversation when we talk about money and publishing and we talk about book sales and yet there are clearly underserved markets within the larger readership that if they were catered to and just got to see themselves and the stories that relate to them that's perhaps a more viable economic path within publishing to sort of grow and be able to publish more people versus whatever's currently occurring. So, you know, I don't know. I'm happy. I'm happy to see places like The Toast and BuzzFeed doing their thing and I'm glad that Catapult is sort of making a name and appearing as one of those places that's doing the same thing.

JENN: Cool. To get to the writing realm, in your work you mentioned the dichotomy of being a creative and a professional. So you're a writer and an editor. The use of the real name versus the name you use for your writing. And then something that comes up in conversation I feel like with creatives especially is this idea of hiding because our art is very personal. What we put out there is very personal. And with it being a solitary act, the act of creation, do you consider the use of a different name or pen name as some call it a form of protection in a way?

[49:25]

MENSAH: To some degree yes. In my former life working in corporate America and completely separate from white publishing life it was . . . I mean it served a utilitarian purpose. I wanted to write freely without having to worry about whether my employers might see my work -- and I don't know if they would've had a problem with it. Just I wasn't at a stage in my professional life to be okay with my coworkers reading my work and by reading my work having some sense of what I thought outside the office.

But I don't know . . . I don't think I hide myself so much as by using the name it's sort of -- and for those who don't know Mensah is not my real name. It is as real to me as my legal name. It's not my legal name. And it's not a secret what my legal name is. It's in the essay that we talked about earlier.

You know, it doesn't hide me but it does I think make clear demarcations between my professional life and my personal life which is to say my name Mensah, it's not attached to a persona. It's not a brand. It's my name that means a lot to me for many, many different reasons that there's no sense getting into now.

But by publishing under Mensah that means that -- and it's something I had to learn fairly recently -- I get to pick and choose what aspects of my personal life I get to share in my work. And I don't know why for some reason the difference in names sort of clears it up in my head but, you know, other writers have used pen names. They've had a million and one different reasons why they would choose to do that. And I think for many writers who choose to use pseudonyms for whatever reason it's never a clear-cut reason why because it always comes to the question of identity and sort of what do you want to be known as and what does that mean to you and what do people think of you in terms of identity? And it becomes so loaded that it becomes sort of outsized.

You know, I tend to think that in my work I say -- and in some respects I think maybe I've over-shared a bit much in sort of my earlier work and it's okay. I think now I'm a little more judicious in what I choose to say about myself and my family.

JENN: Especially as a non-fiction -- in your non-fiction . . .

MENSAH: Most essentially because I don't have that -- when you're writing fiction I don't have that aura or sort of that force field if you will of "Oh, it's fiction." It's sort of like I can always sort of pass it off as it's fiction. Make what you will of it. Whereas non-fiction, you know . . .

JENN: You've got names and times. [Laughs]

MENSAH: I've got names and -- you know, but you can always . . . that comes down to individual writers. I've tried to stop using names over the last couple years. There's no point to it. But I'm okay with sharing myself and my work. It's just there's a way to do it.

JENN: Yeah.

MENSAH: And I'm okay with people doing personal essays and writing them, whether they're sort of pouring their hearts out into these pieces or they're being much more selective in what they publish, there's value in sort of putting yourself in your work and allowing yourself to be seen. And I think that's why maybe someone like Kendrick Lamar resonates so much with me because he puts a lot of himself, good, bad, or ill in his work and it's earnest.

JENN: That Grammy performance.

MENSAH: It was incredible. It was incredible. I don't know. I tend to think of my name as a stage name of sorts but it's not really . . . I mean people at work call me Mensah. That's how I . . .

JENN: Especially now that your life is . . .

MENSAH: Yeah. And that's another thing, you know? There's this weird -- I've talked to people at work about I don't have to have that separation really anymore where it's like Mensah versus my legal name. It's more like oh, this is my professional life. So what that just means for me is Mensah just needs to be as professional as possible and that just means being selective and smart about what I share in social media, saying what needs to be said without -- not necessarily insulting people or worrying about insulting people but just being . . . there's something to be said about being positive to some degree on social media. I mean there's room for negativity. There's room for serious debate and serious discussions. But there's something to be said about encouraging people as best as you can to do the best that they can. And it's such a small thing, and I realize that as someone who is in a position to perhaps influence my industry that maybe it's important to empower those within . . . if not those within the industry, those who are trying to get into it as much as I can. Or at the very least don't belittle them with snark or memes or stuff like that.

JENN: Yeah.

MENSAH: It's just this re-centering in my life of like oh, I'm an editor. Like that means something to me. And that's sort of why I call the piece “This is How You Become an Editor.” It's tongue-in-cheek. It's a play on Junot Diaz's story of course or his collection in whole. And I'm glad you pointed out sort of the instructional tone of the title because that was totally like yeah, I wanted to kind of trick people. Like oh, yeah, this is how you become an editor. And it's sort of this long, winding road of how you do it but like that's the point. But it's encouraging people to take the opportunity to make the . . . where opportunity is given to you, to maximize as much as possible.

JENN: Yeah.

MENSAH: And, you know, understanding that about the role I have now. That's much more important than what I choose to share in my writing work. It's just like I want to -- if I can get people jobs, I'm going to get them jobs, and that's what it is. You know, if I can help people get somewhere then that's what it is. And there's no point in sort of tooting my own horn about it. It's like that's my job as an editor -- black editor, black male editor -- in a literary press, which is a rarity. And I can't underscore that enough.

JENN: No, it's true.

MENSAH: I have a job to do. And I think that says more about me than what I say in my work. That's sort of how it sort of works in my head now. But, you know, I want people to feel like if they approach me that they have my attention and I can help them as best as I can. And with respect to writing under Mensah I just want people to feel that I am trying to reach out and connect with them. And whatever that I share about my personal life, it's in front of it, so trying to establish that connection and say "You're not alone. There's a greater -- we're not as disconnected as you think." And a lot of this sounds like a lot of New Age stuff so I'll tone it down but that's where I'm coming from.

JENN: Eliminating that smoke and mirrors.

MENSAH: Yeah.

JENN: When you think gatekeepers you really think gatekeeper. You think someone's there with the gun. [Laughs] You know, just like get off my lawn unless I ask for you. Don't you dare cross this. Or maybe that's overly dramatic but I really feel as though when I meet people, especially aspiring writers or aspiring publishing folk, that there is this fear. There's an intense fear. And it can largely be mental -- it usually is -- but there's something that's stopping.

MENSAH: And you think it's the imagery of the word gatekeeper itself? Sort of like this true barrier.

JENN: Yeah, I think gatekeeper is a horrible word. [Laughs] It's an accurate word.

MENSAH: I do too.

JENN: But I think it is also -- it can be self-defeating for people I think when you hear gatekeeper.

MENSAH: Yeah.

JENN: What's the point? They're a gatekeeper.

MENSAH: And I see the shift, and my partner pointed it out, she was like -- I see the shift in people using a word like influencers more than gatekeepers. This sense of like . . . and I think in Brooklyn Magazine's 100 Influential, or Most Influential . . .

JENN: Yeah, Most Influential. Yeah.

MENSAH: As opposed to I mean if they used gatekeepers I don't know if anybody would've said anything. It just would've had a little harsher tone to it.

JENN: Yeah, definitely.

MENSAH: Like if you want to get somewhere you need to deal with these 100 people. And it's that sense of like us versus them.

JENN: Yeah. Yeah.

MENSAH: So gatekeeper is a loaded word but it is accurate because unfortunately there is a gate of some kind, particularly in publishing. And for many people who are outside the gate they had nothing to do with its erection and they had nothing to do with its constant -- like that security preference if you will, that sense of if I approach it I will be rebuff because I'm an other when someone who doesn't look like me and doesn't sound like me and most certainly doesn't write like me is all that's standing between me and publication.

JENN: Yeah.

MENSAH: And like access to publishing jobs. I don't know. I mean, again, it goes back to that idea of privilege and access. And if you consider yourself a gatekeeper, that access I'm referring to. Are you allowing people past you into the gate? Hell, if people won't let you let people in through the front door are you letting them climb over the back of the gate to maybe get in? Whatever you've got to do.

JENN: [Laughs] Distracting the people.

(59:53)

MENSAH: Right, right. Like whatever distraction or whatever trick you've got to do. And there's like five writers climbing the fence like "I'm in." Whatever it is -- whatever it is you've got to do -- that's what I mean by access and that's what I mean by exercising your privilege in a manner of your own choosing. But you are empowered as a gatekeeper, as an influencer. And for me that's been an awakening the last few months as I've sort of grown in my position and I continue to grow and learn as much as I can. I'm like oh my God, I really need to sort of . . . I thought I was woke but I wasn't as woke as -- oh, no, there's levels to this.

JENN: [Laughs]

MENSAH: There's more I've got to do. So that's . . . I try to, as much as I can, I try to encourage anyone in similar positions, particularly people of color, to do the same thing. That's just how it works and there's nothing wrong with it. That's how . . .

JENN: Yeah.

MENSAH: You see white colleagues within publishing and they like a writer and they work with that writer and that's sort of how they rise up together and there's nothing wrong with that. So, you know, bringing up people on my end from like Rion Scott to . . .

JENN: Oh, yeah.

MENSAH: To Ashley Ford who doesn't need any more picking up but I'll do as much as I can do Daniel Older to of course Roxane Gay who doesn't need anything from me.

JENN: [Laughs]

MENSAH: But she's the one who taught me the idea of through example this is what you do, when you can do it. It's to get people as much access as possible. That's a beautiful thing.

JENN: Yeah. And not enough people do it I think, being on either end.

MENSAH: No.

JENN: The generosity can be -- not to say is not there because I've experienced generosity a lot, and consideration. I hope I exude that as well to others. But I feel like -- you know the term literary citizen?

MENSAH: Yeah.

JENN: Yeah.

MENSAH: Which I took umbrage with it a few years ago because I thought it was -- again it just seemed unnecessarily cumbersome. So when you mentioned literary citizen the implication is that you are a good one. And I'm like no, if you're a literary citizen you can either be good or bad so why make the distinction? Either way I think it matters to be a good -- like I said, everybody has a choice to make and it's not about imploring people to do what they're going to do or they're not going to do whether you say something to them or not. It is merely saying -- pointing out -- that there is some change and there's some element of power you do have within your hands and you can choose to be generous or not. You don't have to be generous and you can still be prosperous within your own individual career and you can still receive accolades and you can still sell millions of books.

So it's not about bettering yourself; it's just like I want more people to read books that I like and that I think people have within them and they're trying to get them out and they should get looks. They should get a look from an agent and they should get a look from editors and publishers. And it's always good. It means something when you see someone be generous to you.

JENN: Yeah. It does.

MENSAH: It changes sort of like . . . it just reminds you that people can be good, and particularly in New York that reminder is especially stark when it occurs. Like wow, people actually will give up a seat for someone on the subway train? That's great. Oh, they'll pass your résumé on to someone? That's great. In the city it's like every dog for themselves unfortunately but it doesn't have to be and it's always great when you see people helping others. And it's great to see black creatives helping other black creatives. That's what we've got to do. And I don't know how to instill that more but like I said I'd rather talk about it or just do it quietly because that's what editors do unfortunately.

JENN: Yeah.

MENSAH: You know, I tweeted yesterday I think that editing is not a thankless job, it's just a quiet one.

JENN: That's true.

MENSAH: It's a good thing.

JENN: Yeah. It's not like your name is on the front of the book.

MENSAH: No. Well, it depends. If you're editing an anthology that'd be great. But more than that it's just like you can't really humble brag about being an editor. You just do it.

JENN: [Laughs]

MENSAH: And if the writer is happy that's like the humble brag. My writer is happy with the work that I helped her do.

JENN: And the author can give the shout-outs. [Laughs]

MENSAH: Which I loved about Ta-Nehisi Coates when he won the NBA, the very first person he started talking about was Chris Jackson his editor. And that sense of -- you know, in musical terms that's similar to like an M.C. picking up his producer or his D.J. or something like that. Because you didn't get there by yourself. As an editor who wants to get to a place where a writer I work with reaches a point where they're nominating for an NBA one day, that'd be great. That's sort of like -- there's something . . . I don't know, there's something intangible about seeing something that you've been working on and editing it and shaping it to give it life. Then it sort of takes off. And I haven't even edited a book yet so I'm looking forward to that challenge and seeing where it takes me.

JENN: It's coming. [Laughs]

MENSAH: It's coming and I'm holding off as long as I can. Probably even mentioning it now means I'm going to get a book in my inbox.

JENN: You've done jinxed yourself. [Laughs] Thank you so much Mensa for being on.

MENSAH: No, thank you. Again sorry for -- if I'm not long-winded, sorry for my . . .

JENN: I don't think you're long-winded. It's a great conversation.

MENSAH: That's good. I'm encouraging people to -- like I love your podcast.

JENN: Oh, thank you.

MENSAH: I'm so glad that we were able to connect at the Hustle reading a little while ago.

JENN: Yeah. And I just want to let listeners know because I will be editing this regardless but is not quiet. [Laughs]

MENSAH: No. No, I think I heard a guitar at some point. I didn't understand.

JENN: There were chimes somehow. I've never seen chimes . . . [Laughs]

MENSAH: There were. There were like some cymbals or something like that. No, but I will say relatively speaking they've been actually kind of . . .

JENN: Yeah, they've been pretty chill. We'll see what happens when they get home. So how did that happen? How did that work out? But thank you again, Mensah.

MENSAH: Oh, thank you. Thank you.

JENN: This was such a great convo. So how may people get in touch with you on the social media, if you would like them to?

MENSAH: First place is probably Twitter at @Mensah4000, the number 4000. I'm on Facebook, Mensah.Demary I think is the link. And, yeah, but Twitter is probably the quickest way if you have any questions regarding pitches or anything regarding Catapult or possibly submitting. Just find me on Twitter. We'll connect there. I'll provide my email address and we'll just keep going [@futuremensah].

JENN: And Catapult pretty much has a rolling submission.

MENSAH: Yeah. So actually April 1st I believe we're reopening fiction submissions.

JENN: Okay.

MENSAH: It's been closed for a few months but we are reopening for I think the next six months.

JENN: So April 1st to October?

MENSAH: To October, yeah. Either -- maybe like last year, maybe the end of October. But anyway non-fiction has been rolling. And we're on Submittable so if you have a Submittable account just go there. Submittable's the best.

JENN: And it's free for us. [Laughs]

MENSAH: And it's free. Yes, for you anyway. But go there. You know the routine. They have our submission guidelines. And in addition to fiction and non-fiction we also have some series, some non-fiction series like the Believer series or Borrow series where you can pitch . . . or we're about to roll out some new stuff as far as content for spring and summer so just keep an eye out for that. And follow us at @CatapultStory on Twitter. That's one word, CatapultStory. If you go to @Catapult it takes you to I don't know who has it, it's like some sort of marketing company. I forget. But it's kind of weird.

JENN: And you have your classes.

MENSAH: And we have our classes, so check out our website catapult.co. You know, front page you'll see the latest essays or stories that we've published. But you can also check out our books. We have Margaret the First by Danielle Dutton coming out literally any day, a highly-anticipated release, and we have a few more books coming out in April and May from Watch List to Vexation Lullaby. And then the classes, we're always adding new classes and new instructors as the year goes on. So just always keep an eye out and if you see anything just apply and maybe you'll come to the office and be taught by Ashley Ford who is an amazing instructor. Yeah, I encourage all you guys to check out the site and look around and see if you like something and buy a book if you like it too.

JENN: And check out that essay, “This is How You Become an Editor.”

(1:10:00)

MENSAH: That too. That too. I have a new essay coming out soon with Catapult, I'm still working on it, so hopefully . . . probably after you hear this, it's probably later in March, before I go to AWP in Los Angeles.

JENN: Oh, okay. Will Catapult have a table?

MENSAH: Yes, I will be there with Julie Buntin who is our director of writing programs and Morgan Jerkins is also going. She's our web editorialist. Yeah. But I'll be manning the tables with Julie primarily and I'll be on two panels myself and then Catapult has a couple of off-site functions that we're co-sponsoring going on as well. I think it's that Thursday of . . . so I don't know if that's the 31st or the 1st since I forget how many days are in March.

JENN: Yeah, yeah.

MENSAH: Yeah, so if you're going please stop by the table, say hi, look at our books, possibly buy one. And that should be fun.

JENN: Yeah. And also check out Mensah’s essays that he did for The Toast.

MENSAH: Yes, my column -- oh yeah, my column at . . . The Toast is now Electric Literature but the archive still remains at The Toast. I worked there for almost a year before moving on to Electric Literature which has started up. So sort of floating in different places. I'm trying to shore up where I'm at writing-wise as far as the places I publish. But Electric Literature, Liner Notes Column, I try to do that every month. So the last piece went up a few weeks ago and the next one will hopefully go out later in March.

JENN: Cool. Thank you again for being on.

MENSAH: Thank you.

JENN: And thanks everyone for listening and we'll be back in a couple weeks and I have a lot more episodes coming up in the queue. [Laughs] Now's a good time to catch up because I have a lot of stuff coming up.

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