#fabrimuch

[kujoestars]

I need your opinion on Jade naming one of the consorts Yiffyiff, because you're asexual, a furry and a Jade fan >:B

It's a silly gag name, what can I say? :PKind of inevitable considering this isn't the first time the sexual part of the fandom got riffed on. I personally don't care that much, though it is odd seeing Jade being the one to make the joke this time. Might be something about that consort's personality...>XP

[clonerightsagenda]

Tarot cards: will Jake's character arc have a happy ending?

Knight of Wands. Talks about someone who might be well-liked and narcissistic, or someone acting pushy and manipulative. Also mentions long trips and tension. Sounds like whatever the end is, it will be arduous. 

Also the card shows Gamzee lurking over Nepeta which is ominous. 

[elfstuck]

Okay, this probably qualifies as a spoiler, but if it's going to interfere with your ejoyment of the story I should point out that the whole Light/Dark thing gets more complicated later and Black isn't really pure undiluted evil all the time.

I assumed that. And the set of things I intend to rant about does not particularly overlap with the set of things that interfere with my enjoyment of the story. I am plenty happy for the story to contain many, many elements that I find annoying or frustrating or pointless or just plain wrong. Just so long as it doesn’t get boring, I’m fine. “Dead grandmother inhabiting a computer-ish sprite and giving messages of Great Quests with Impending Doom on the other side” (light is doomed to failure) is not boring.

I’d expect it to get more complicated; the initial “there are two sides, and you are on the side of LIGHT, which is the good guys” in the traditional Hero’s Quest storyline is often a general overview rather than an absolute. And I wouldn’t expect this to follow the traditional Hero’s Quest tropes exactly anyway.

[zenosanalytic]

Mages, Selflessness, and Perspective

fabrimuch said:

I think Mages are the most selfless class of all. Following Sollux's storyline, nothing that he has ever done had directly benefitted him. He regularly harms himself in order to aid his team (before Sgrub, the entirety of Alternia). Could that mean Mages are one of the most passive classes (considering Calliope's definition as those who work for the good of the party)? (Admittedly, a lot of this could be a Doom thing, but I still see it as him using Doom on himself to help others).

I think that's a fair read of Sollux(he's definitely the self-sacrifice type, and frankly more explicitly goddamn noble and selfless about it than most of the other sacrifice-play characters in HS given the Meteor deal, the peaceful ease with which he accepts losses, and the way he works to get Feferi into the Session while he is actively dying an excruciating death[1]), but I think you also have to consider Meulin, who expresses her Mageness(at least from what we see and how I see it) through almost entirely self-indulgent means(which isn't to say she doesn't have good qualities and isn't capable of being a genuine friend to people, only that she gets carried away and isn't very self-aware), and also somehow manages to make the trainwreck that is Horrus even worse :/

My opinions on how Mages "fit" into the Class-System are, I would say, pretty repetitively stated at this point, but honestly that's rightly irrelevant to how you personally think and feel about the Classes. What I would say though is that you have to consider every iteration of any concept you are thinking about in Homestuck, and judge your conclusions against all of them to see if those conclusions fit before you can say something is a general characteristic. Of course, that my particular way of reading Meulin doesn't take her as particularly selfless doesn't mean there isn't an argument to be made that she is, and if you can make or find an argument to that effect that satisfies you, then Excellent ^u^ Relatedly, I do think a passive read of Mages is possible, though I usually go with an active one(particularly since persistently helpful tumblrer and Blog-Friend chippokenabokura provided me with this personally edifying description of the passive/active breakdown), so keep plugging along and developing that idea!

I suppose what I'd say in the end is that, while I don't personally think Mages are the "most selfless" Class, and while I generally would shy away from saying any Class has a definitive, necessary monopoly on any sort of trait, if that sort of definitive talk helps folks understand Classes then they are just as welcomed to use it as I am to my endlessly modified, exempted, provisoed, and nested clauses on the matter. I like to make things complicated, contingent, and abstract, because that's how I think about everything and it's the sort of approach I'm most comfortable with; so it really is no surprise that when I analyze Homestuck, that's the sort of story I see. What helps you make sense of it, and the sort of language that helps you make sense of it, is just as valid as my approach.

I would however -because I am an unrepentant pedant and rampant Over-complicator of Things- say that it's important to keep in mind what Characters in Homestuck want to be true when they are talking about aspects of the story. Calliope wants to be helpful and to be the antithesis of her brother; while she has no desire to deceive anyone on the issue, she has her own desires and these can skew her perspective no matter how well-meaning she is(See the Trickster Episode and its Aftermath). Are Passive-Classes definitively helpful and selfless, or does Calliope's fear of/dislike for what her brother's nature(and what she knows of her own) may say about her, and her related desires to not be those things, drive her to over-read the goodness of those Classes she deems to be "passive" like her own? One of the great things about Homestuck is that we are fans of a work whose creator actively encourages us to draw our own conclusions regarding issues like these, and is cagey enough to provide answers which often raise more questions than they settle :)

[1]Gee, I wonder why she loves him ?:? Who wouldn't love someone noble enough to do that for somebody else -especially when that somebody bodily represents a political and social system that someone actively and deeply despises- simply because it is the right and moral thing to do, and their "job"? Is it possible to NOT love somebody that wonderfully, completely ethical(and who will actively resent you for complimenting them on that quality)?? Someone who is willing to throw down their life for their ideals, even if it's to save the living symbol of everything they stand against??? I don't think so; I honestly do not think that negative is a possibility for any moral being >:]

[zenosanalytic]

What Pages Deliver

fabrimuch said:

Me again, sorry. I was wondering what you think a successful Page arc would be like, in general. So far all the Pages we've seen have been completely broken in one way or another, trudging along their own uselessness and patheticness andd then dying without accomplishing anything, and that... looks too grim =(

There is no need for Sorries regarding such serious sadstucks as these :( I agree that the Pages' Arc has a rather Grim Aspect, but the good thing about Homestuck is that Death is not the end :)

Tavros died, but his most important moment of growth(standing up to Vriska for himself, his freedom, and his non-violent, non-controlling way of living) takes place while he's dead, and he's not the only one. In certain ways having to do with his social views, his desire to be dominated/given a clear place in the world, and his lack of a desire to harm his friends, Equius's death can be said to have had integrity, but it was in being dead and separated from Nepeta that he came to see what the price of that integrity was, how his integrity harmed and cost those he cared for most, and it was in seeing and thinking over this that Equius's sense of morality began to change. Something similar happens with Eridan who, through being merged with Sollux, begins to feel and understand the pain his arrogant misdeeds caused others, and from that learns both to regret them, and feel at least a small smidgen of humility. And Vriska too, while still repeating some of her old mistakes in the Ghost Army plan and her abominable treatment of Tavros, starts to openly ask serious questions about herself and to grope towards a better way to be only after her death.

That a Homestuck character dies doesn't mean their story is at an end, or that their chances for growth stops. That the A1 Trolls chose to stagnate in the Dream Bubbles doesn't negate Aradia's advice that death is a time for healing, reflection, and dealing with the mistakes of your past. The A2 Trolls have struggled to do that, so far showing mostly minor improvements, but they have done it, and so there are good reasons to suspect Tavros's story is not over and that, while his and Jake's narratives have hit some distressing lows and may hit still lower ones, the low points won't be where their stories end :)

Most of what I think about the Page-Arc is summed up in this Page of Hope ask I got a while back from strongman-freakshow. Basically, a "Successful" Page's Arc would see them starting off naively hopeful and confident, they would encounter severe difficulties that would make them doubt and even renounce their unique perspective/identity(Tavros dipping his toes into manipulative waters with Jade and turning to violence against Vriska; Jake giving up on himself and his dreams in the wake of the Jane fiasco and his imprisonment; Horuss deciding he is everything and nothing), and from there would be a rocky climb out to the heights we have repeatedly been told the Class is capable of. In response to the self-destructive challenges they face, a "successful" Page would eventually do what Tavros did and reassert their Identity, Agency, and world-view in the face of their tormentors/challenges, taking back some Aspect-related concept in the process(Tavros taking back his freedom by escaping and his "Ephemerality[1]" by doing so without violence; Jake presumably taking back his confidence and hopes for the future by standing up to those who've tried to break him down and "winning" through the power of DREAMS!). Having gained and asserted a new confidence in their identity and preferred methods in this way, the Page would then(and I'm guessing this based purely on how Tavros's Land Quest asked him to lead his Underlings around his Land solving puzzles, so it's a tenuous theory for what this Arc's Good-End would be) inspire and lead their Team to whatever counted as victory for them, not necessarily by being the strongest fighter or the one at the fore, but by being the figure their Team rallies around, and by carrying out seemingly impossible Aspect-related feats to help their Friends overcoming seemingly impossible challenges. Where a Maid would be "Serving" their Aspect to the enemy directly, the Page would be inviting their Aspect "to Serve" their Teammates, who would then deal with their enemies in their own Role-based ways even more effectively.

Related to this, and working from Tavros's Fiduspawn hobby and the way in which Aranea turned Jake into a Hope-Field-Generating Angel Portal/Factory, Pages might also be the closest Homestuck equivalent to the "Summoner" class often found in Final Fantasy games. While initially their strengths would be in providing support for others, at the end of their development they would be able to call up(or call upon the abilities of) powerful Meta-Reality allies associated with their Aspect(or some embodiment/emanation of their Aspect itself), capable of attacks and actions far beyond what other Classes could accomplish. They themselves would not technically be "powerful", but the forces they are capable of wielding would be game-breaking by design.

So basically, yeah, I think that before Homestuck ends we'll see Jake and Tavros do some pretty impressive things, and reassert their dreams, philosophies, and sense-of-self in cheer-worthy ways. If the story was to not hold a "happy-ending" like that for them after all the crap they've been pulled through, I'd think it'd have to be handled very well to not come off as a massive bummer.

[1] By this I mean his detachment from the physical and temporal; stuff like how he goes around problems instead of "fighting" them, his peaceful way of approaching life, his "dreaminess" and his ability to inspire others with his way of life.

[phemiec]

Are you still doing the character meme thingy? If so, Aranea Serket ::::D

Weeee... both like to read? :o

[zenosanalytic]

Theorizing Page of Breath

fabrimuch asked:

What would a successful Page of Breath be like? Would the lack of confidence always be there or is that a specific case for Tavros?

I suspect a lack of confidence would always be a part of any Page’s Arc, though that can take many form.

Horuss lacked any confidence in who he was, Tavros lost the confidence he had in his particular approach to life through Vriska’s abuse, Jake went from being “confident” in things it was convenient to believe(Jane doesn’t have any romantic interest in me; me dating Dirk is “inevitable” so I might as well give in to it) to thinking he was basically a total failure in every way. Another good example of how varied crises of confidence can be is seen in Hope-Heroes. Cronus needed to keep believing in his particular destiny, Eridan to not believe in himself so much, and Jake to be more open to his perception, to not accept what others say at face-value, and to believe he can, in his own way, handle the situation he’s found himself in even if he isn’t the sort of “man of action” he always measured himself against. So, to say a certain Class will often face a “crisis of confidence” covers a lot of ground, though the “built up slowly over time” character of Pages does lend itself well to the sort of confidence narrative you see in Tavros and Jake’s Arcs.

As for what a successful non-Tavros one would look like(because I suspect his story isn’t over yet, and definitely think his realizing that the healthiest thing he could do regarding his relationship with Vriska was to -per his general distaste for violence and preference for getting around rather than through problems- bail was a big positive development for him). There are a lot of different approaches. You could have a Page of Breath who really admires great speakers, but doesn’t have much confidence in their ability to influence and inspire others, who learns to trust theirself, overcomes their anxiety, and becomes a source of inspiration and leadership for their Team. You could have a Page of Breath that believes firmly in the value of personal Freedom of Action and not being tied down, who comes to learn the importance of responsibility through their Arc and, through that new understanding of what others “deserve” from them, ends up giving Freedom to their Team. You could have a physically-minded Page of Breath who struggles with Mobility, who tries again and again to overcome a relatively new physical disability through determination and hard-work only to fail, losing their confidence. Only then, at their lowest point, they learn how to believe in another aspect of their-self which they have long neglected -their ingenuity- and from that develop their ability to fly and be the Breeze, gaining Mobility not only for themselves, but learning how to give it to others as well. Really, there are as many successful Page of Breath narratives out there as there are facets of reality Breath touches upon and confidence-gaining narratives you can think up :)

[kujoestars]

Wait, you're an otherkin? Or did I misread that ask you reblogged?

No, I said a friend of mine is (she's a demon).

As much as i like gryphons, I don't see myself as one except in my imagination land. =P