I always end up in this weird place because I like fannon but half of the relationships, fandom is confident about in the batfamily are nonexistent in the comics.
So I get asks that are really hard to answer because that is literally coming from nowhere so I am not familiar with exactly what you’re talking about?
*Not necessarily a bad thing I love researching random shit.
Which is why I think all of the times when I’m kind of blunt about favoritism or random hypotheticals they come off as really assholey. But it’s just because in the comics those two people have never interacted so why are we gonna kill Jason for them?
That is always the thought process that happens whenever I run into the polls about saving someone over the other or who do you think is this person’s favorite?
The answer is not hard or complicated if you’ve read the comics. If you haven’t and you’re only familiar with fannon that’s when your answer is not cut and dry.
In general, a lot of the Wayne’s are also not always the best people. I’m a firm believer in the narrative of the heroes who are trying to better the world. But they also can be kind of fucking assholes.
Dick is not hugging every single vigilante in Gotham and throwing them a goddamn parade every time they save someone.
He is an extremely capable, badass vigilante with anger issues who unless you are really important to him does not typically have the time of day to care about your emotional stability.
Yes, he’s going to save civilians, he will talk you down from jumping off a bridge. That doesn’t mean he’s going to braid your hair and have a sleepover.
That is the cusp of my issue, sometimes having to answer questions about Batfamily randomness. It’s always Dick, too.
Since in fandom he is this lovable octopus.
But in the comics, unless you’re literally one of the most important people in his life he’s not actually all that nice.
Even if he does care about you in the comics, he’s still a fucking asshole. If you go through his comics and actually look at the random shit he is saying it is extremely fucked up sometimes. The only person I do not have a moment in memory of him saying something that I think is literally a War Crime to is maybe Tim. I’m not even sure because he lives up to his name. Damain he’s also pretty nice, but also has made some not nice comments.
Jason, he has an on-site order for all the time. Bruce he has ripped him a new asshole, then tried to kick his ass and like a week later showed up for patrol again.
Dick Grayson 100% is loving, kind, protective, handing out nicknames, doting but he is only like that constantly to maybe three people. Donna Troy, Tim Drake…..Wally…maybe? Keyword constantly! For people like Starfire, Babs, Damian, Roy, Bruce. He has very sweet moments and is overall nice but if you give him 10 minutes, he’s going to say something really fucked up. Jason gets an honorable mention because he was nice sometimes when he was younger…
Dick Grayson is also a lying, manipulative, cruel asshole.
Especially when he’s stressed or angry.
Even Donna, who I cannot think of a moment of him being really mean to her, I’m sure has said something fucked up. That is his Wonder Twin half of his soul.
He threatened to remove the elevator. He literally threw over his shoulder to Barbara Gordon that he would take away her way of leaving.
Dick Grayson is Sunshine; He can be very warm, but also will burn your fucking skin and give you cancer. 
Next up is the dorm based on The Lion King and on the King of Beasts' Spirit of Persistence. While it does appear to be the athletic dorm, compared to the others, there are plenty of althetic characters in other dorms. Yes Leona can certainly meet a physical challenge, but he doesn't seem to want to unless it is absolutely necessary. So there has to be more to why people get sorted into this dorm than simply being more physically active and sporty.
"Life's not fair Is it?" That famous line sums up these students and how they feel about their lives. They are not satified with where they are and they want to change it. However they don't like when others try to decide their life for them, in any way. These are the sorts who want to achieve the life and goals they want by their own actions. It certainly seems that if any student of this dorm gets told they can't do something, they'll give some sort of "watch me" response. (Might be violently.)
How much they actually believe they can reach that goal and change their lives varies between the students, but overall it's low. There seems to be something personal holding them back from achieving the life they want. Some likely don't even realize they're hindering themselves.
Leona has a lot of pride. He is confident in his skills, on a basic level. He is very smart and has a lot of strong magic. However, he does not have a lot of emotional self confidence in himself as a person. Certainly didn't help that others kept comparing him, a child, to his much older brother all the way into his 20s. He struggles to get passed the feeling of being compared, of being viewed as lesser than anyone. If only he would actually believe those around him when they say possitive things about him.
Ruggie can work multiple jobs to help his grandma and the kids in his neighborhood, but often falls back on schemes and street tactics. He's lived a large portion of his life just trying to stay alive. He knows what it's like to go hungry. Now he's in a place where he has access to better food, shelter, and has the chance to find a more... honest living (for lack of a better phrase). Yet he is still constantly behaves like he's back in the slums. Yes there petty crimes meant he stayed alive, but it also means a poor reputation and view from others. It also seems to have lead to habits and mindsets that Ruggie has a hard time breaking out of. All that can hold him back from getting out of the life he's in.
Jack wants to better his own athleticism and face challenges head-on (even outside a sports environment) on equal footing against others. He just has a hard time allowing others to work with him as teammated rather than having them simply be rivals. Receiving or giving help to others does not come easily to him. It can even be a literal fight with him to do so.
So someone that might end up in Savanaclaw would be unhappy with their life, but have a personal trait that causes them to stuggles to change it on their own. Even though they would much rather do it that way. What are you're thoughts on why someone might be placed in this dorm?
Nobody asked for this but this is my long, in-depth and serious thoughts about Stursia, episode 8 and current discourse i’ve seen circulating !
(Content Warning: Discussions of abusive relationships, manipulation, consent, rape, hivemind related things.)
Getting straight into it,
I’ve seen a couple people say that Carol raped Zosia (/and that Carol was raped by Zosia/The Hive which we will also get into)
The first thing I want us all to acknowledge is that nobody truly knows or understands how the hive works. The hive, as far as we are concerned as viewers is still a very large mystery. Now I’m sure in the coming days Vince or some of the actors may clear up certain doubts, but currently a lot of it is speculation.
We cannot say for sure that Zosia consented / that a part of her true identity and individuality had begun to reveal itself, and that the decision to initiate with Carol was also influenced by her own choices truly as an individual and not just the hive.
We cannot say for sure that Zosia didn’t consent, that she didn’t have a choice in this, that this wasn’t simply the hive.
We cannot say for sure because we don’t know.
We don’t even know if she is “in there” and how it works. Is she there alongside the hive, is she completely gone, is she aware and watching like a ‘get out’ situation but unable to actually do anything, is the hive actually the collective consciousness of billions or is it one alien eldritch being. There are a lot of questions, a lot without answers. Yet.
From the show, we don’t really have anything of full substance to help us navigate this, but we do know some things via interviews and what actors have said.
Ultimately, (from what I’ve seen) Rhea & Karolina both seem excited about the scene & how fans will take it, they’ve been teasings fans, teasing each other - I believe if the intention Vince had was to make it purely malicious and negative then the actors would’ve taken it very seriously, that if it was meant to truly be a scene depicting those things that these actors would not be treating it like this and teasing about it.
I still think that Vince or the actors will likely make further statements regarding the scene which might clear up some questions regarding consent and other aspects that many people had. We will all need to wait for something like that
(Also something I want to mention is that people are upset because some have labelled Koumba a rapist due to his actions with the hive & then not given the same to Carol - I can’t really comment on this because I haven’t seen or interacted with these type of conversations, but I do think that you should hold characters to the same standard.)
Now to talk about Carol-
Rape is a very broad term, a lot of people might believe it’s just somebody physically forcing themselves onto somebody saying no, but there is a lot more to it & it is not as black and white.
Even if somebody has said yes to sexual intercourse, it could still be considered rape - because again, it’s not just black and white, and it is a very broad thing and many aspects need to be taken into account.
The main thing to focus on is consent, if that consent or the ability to consent has been in some form compromised then the situation becomes extremely different.
I do believe to some extent that Carol is not in the right state of mind & that yes, you could definitely argue her ability to consent is currently limited.
Whilst Carol may have reciprocated the kiss, it’s important to note the ways the hive has been actively manipulating her for the past two months AND that she is currently still grieving
Cause yea shocking news you don’t actually just get over your dead wife of 20+ years who died suddenly like two months ago just because a hot woman is in front of you. Carol is most definitely still grieving.
How much of her can truly consent? How much of her has been manipulated? How much of her is just desperate, lonely? And the thing is they’re introducing more than just sexual relations in Zosia/Hive & Carol dynamic, because we know they’re also beginning to introduce romance and potentially a relationship which will complicate things even further.
Another complication is Carol’s seemingly inability to truly comprehend the hive as well, the hive. She is trying to learn, sure, but it also seems she’s unable to let go of this idea of individuality (Which in her defense, we still don’t technically know the full ins and outs of how the hivemind operates either.)
I’ve also seen some people speculate that this is a long game Carol is playing to actually manipulate and take advantage of the hive, which is definitely an interesting theory. We will see and learn a lot more in the finale!
But yea many things to discuss because this situation is very complicated, Vince is good at that, making situations have a LOT going on and not just black and white.
Also another important thing to acknowledge is that this is a TV show, with fictional characters and it is not real - of course, fiction can (and has before) still have an impact on real life, & yes some people who engage with things fictionally do unfortunately engage with them in real life too (when real people were celebrating and calling real serial killers hot…) but typically I believe most people are normal and sane and have the ability to seperate fiction & reality and not enjoy things they’ve enjoyed in fiction in real life.
Like I myself have enjoyed very toxic and dysfunctional ships, hannigram for example cuz that one has a LOT of very toxic shit going on - but obviously i don’t actually support fucking cannibalism please don’t eat people guys or like actively allow your patients encephalitis to worsen to the point of memory loss, hallucinations, time loss so you can frame them for your murders that is not cool. not approved. thumbs down!
But back to the situation at hand - I understand both sides and most arguments which i’ve seen (and i will likely see more in the coming days) I also think neither side can for sure claim that they are 100% correct, because again we do not know the full extent of everything going on-
-I myself am going to be waiting for a professional opinion on the matter (hopefully by Vince himself)
Whilst we wait for a statement to (hopefully…) release, I know it’s kind of inevitable in fandom spaces for there to be toxicity but don’t go and like, tell each other to kts 😭 Nobody is obligated to engage with people they don’t like on social media, it’s healthy and perfectly acceptable to block and curate your feed and algorithm, honestly if you see an opinion you disagree with, call it ragebait and then move on it helps i promise
fandom discourse can be an incredibly tiring and mentally draining thing & can negatively impact our daily life, work life, school life whatever you guys have going on, I know this because back when I was 13 I was in the TRENCHES. Now being an adult it’s like, well, anyway, i’m just gonna go play video games - so remember to engage with your loved ones and that discussions in fandoms are still important and common, but don’t drive yourself to a point where it is giving you mental distress 🫶
There is a lot more I could talk about too but it is now 1am and my wrist hurts cuz i have been yapping all day and now it’s inflamed from overuse LOL
For most of my life I'd been an "I obsess about stuff on my own" kind of person and only recently I've decided to explore fandom communities, be it on Tumblr, Ao3 or any other places.
And probably, that's the reason why it had never occurred to me before, how many discussions and arguments there are about "the right version of <insert a character name here> in the canon". 🤔
The said discussions can be connected with any kind of fandom and any character, but the ones that caught my eye are definitely Loki-related.
One reason for this is that - obviously - I search for specific content, so I end up seeing lots of posts related to the topic. The other reason, however, is - I guess - more connected with the fact that there really are different interpretations of that character: in various films, in the series, in comics. And probably none of them can be "everyone's cup of tea". 🤷
There are people for whom the only right version of Loki in MCU is the one up to "Thor: Dark World" - and everything that was done afterwards is absolutely worthless.
There are people for whom everything up to "Dark World" is a total waste of time and only "Thor: Ragnarok" and the series have the right vibe.
There are people who generally don't like Loki in MCU and stick to the comics alone.
There are people who like the films but hate the series.
There are people who love both the films and the series.
There are probably also people who don't like any of the films but enjoy the series.
Oh, let's not forget about those who might generally hate what Marvel did to mythological Loki, both in the comics and in MCU. 😉
*
Yeah, we sometimes get really emotional when it comes to our favourite characters. Because these stories, which we're being told here, for some of us might be much more than just sheer entertainment.
They're our modern myths and legends. They are a kind of conscious or subconscious work on our own issues. They are a way to project some parts of ourselfs onto these characters, to familiarase oneself with some fears, needs and desires, to discover new things about oneself.
(That's totally not your way of thinking? Okay. But it's definitely mine and I know I'm not the only one.)
*
Loki is someone with whom it might get even more complicated, because this character - based on mythological Trickster - is a really powerful symbol, additionally enhanced by all Marvel's ideas for him. And - boy! - they did give him a lot of traits and issues many of us can relate to, this way or another. 🫣
So a (possibly quite obvious) thing that occurred to me is that probably... your "right" Loki is the Loki you need. You. Specifically. For this or that reason. Because you need this character to be that way.
I'll even risk another theory: maybe the fact that we can see so many different characterisations of Loki throughout the canon is the reflection of "what kind of Loki the authors of the particular film or comic needed for themselves". 🤔 (Dunno, maybe there were other reasons as well, not arguing about that.)
And the most important thing? Well, in my opinion, there are two:
Never ever feel bad because you like more this or that version of a particular character. Or because you like all of them. Or because you don't like any of them, so you create your own one in your fantasies/stories. ☺️
Never ever make other people feel bad because they like a different version of the character than you do. Apart from being hurtful and insensitive, this kind of behaviour is also totally absurd. Would you really ridicule someone because they drink cappuccino, while you prefer black coffee? (And if the answer is "yes" - daaaamn, you've got a whole lotta things to unpack here. 😜)
*
Yep, that's all folks. 😁
Thank you for coming to my "random rambling about pseudo-philosophical sh*t that nobody needs or everyone is already aware of" kind of talk. 🤣 (My inner critic says hello to ya all. 😆)
re = this post i reblogged (about fandom engagement)
looking at the tags and some of you make a good point that sometimes we also don't interact with a post right away, simply because we don't have the energy or the capacity to deal with its content at the time. i've put a lot of meta posts aside lately, not because i don't think they're good, but i'm a bit drained after work and i wouldn't appreciate reading them, not like i usually would. i do it with fics as well.
i also read some comments about learning to find value in yourself and your work, and while it can be really hard, it's important
but mostly i think it's about giving yourself a chance and not to get too discouraged before you even put your stuff out there.
fics or posts you think will never interest people might actually get engagement, even if it's not a lot.
i said recently that i was writing a hackett & or / cloneshep fic and thought "NO ONE will read this" but people replied and said "actually deb, the idea doesn't seem that bad..." so you really never know. i'm not writing the fic for people, i'm writing it for myself, but it's an example and there are others. someone somewhere will be interested! if you think no one will read your javik & glyph go on adventures gen fic............. I WILL READ IT
and since notes/kudos aren't equal to quality, it's worth mentioning that a lot of us in fandom will not always find popular fics or posts to our tastes. not everyone is here for a pairing or a character or even a trope that everyone else likes. and that's okay! it's a matter of preferences and doesn't mean a fic or a post is bad or lacking. but the point is that i'm grateful that people here write or talk about different things. fandom would be very boring to me otherwise.
Fandom analysis and "activism" are healthy and indeed important to a point, and will almost always relate to you or your beliefs on a personal level, but if you're at the point where you can no longer objectively approach a discussion or fandom as a whole, or you're at the point where you cannot separate fandom and your real life, you need to take a step back.
If you're at the point where you're spending the majority of your time relating to fandom doing nothing but complaining and getting in arguments and treating fandom spaces like warzones and protests, you need to take a step back.
If you're blatantly making up things that are non-existent in canon just to be angry about it, you need to take a step back.
And just to clarify; taking a step back in okay. Its not a bad thing, and its absolutely not meant to be an insult. Sometimes we just get to caught up in something we need breathing room to be able to readjust ourselves and realign ourselves, and that's a perfectly valid, normal, human thing. We often use fandom spaces as outlets, but if its reached the point where you have an unhealthy obsession with negativity in those spaces, its no longer good for you. Its no longer just an outlet, its a feeding loop of toxicity.
I'm gonna go on a limb here and say something I've been thinking about. So, I watched cql before reading the novel, and when I first read mdzs I have to say I was a bit thrown off by the Phoenix Mountain kiss, so of course my first instinct was to come to this hellsite and try to find what other people thought of it. The more I looked into it, the more I was convinced that the reason so many people hate it so irrationally and why it is apparently so hard for some to analyse any possible meaning beyond the obvious things in that scene, is because people that were introduced to mdzs via cql often go into the novel trying to get some sort of "fandom experience".
What I mean is that people will read mxtx's work and expect to get the same gratification they get whenever they find a good fic. Something tailored to their taste and characters built upon the preconceived ideas (often fanon) they have of each of them. It's a problem I've noticed a lot with queer media reception by people who are active in fandom. It's one of the things I am critical of and why I am so adamant to join fandom discussions, because I feel like many fandoms have created spaces where the queer characters are made to be these perfect examples of representation, so whenever queer characters are allowed to be flawed and make bad decisions people often jump on the bandwagon of calling it problematic and homophobic, instead of putting some effort into reading further than what is in plain sight and being critical of the possible meaning behind the character's actions.
Sorry for the long ask, but I wanted to get this out of my system. Tried my best, but English is not my first language, so I'm sorry if anything is weird or hard to understand.
Hi anon,
I think you are definitely unto something when you say: “people will read mxtx's work and expect to get the same gratification they get whenever they find a good fic. Something tailored to their taste and characters built upon the preconceived ideas (often fanon) they have of each of them.” It certainly would explain why so many people, even while aware that the series is an adaptation of the book, say stuff like “novel!LWJ is OOC”. They might have approached the novel as just the “fanfic” of CQL that includes “canon Wangxian”, without considering how much had been potentially changed through the process of adapting MDZS and making it palatable according to censorship.
I agree with you that the current state of fandom, where fic writers seem focused on avoiding being Problématique at all cost, has not only stiffled creativity but created in certain fans unreasonable expectations towards other works. Fandom, as a creative context, is generally focused on (self-)indulgence, on feel-goodness, and is largely pretty dry in terms of themes. But to expect all creatives to have the same “goal” or approach when it comes to art is simply ridiculous. For some people, art is a safe means through which to explore difficult, violent or outlandish set-ups. Art can be used to make people feel uncomfortable, unsettled just as it can be used to make people feel uplifted and moved. Art can be focused on exploring nuanced and controversial topics. Art can be used to portray irredeemable assholes, losers or monsters. Art can be depressing and deny us any feelings of satisfaction. Art can do so many things! And, yes, sometimes creativity is mobilised in the service of writing the nth wholesome gay coffee store AU for a popular anglo property: but that’s neither the norm nor the rule.
I think as well in terms of queer representation that we lose a lot when we try to argue that the only way to “fight” homophobia is to present queer characters and queer relationships that are Unproblématique and fit a constantly-shifting standard of what is “not-homophobic”. Take the current obsession with the idea that all gay men must be vers or otherwise be a homophobic stereotype: putting aside all that needs to be unpacked in that belief, imagine a world where it’s the accepted idea everywhere that you can’t write about gay men lest they be vers. How many queer experiences would we be erasing in the process? Or, again, this weird idea that it’s “bad” to write in fem queer men because that’s a stereotype, when the real issue is just that fem queer men have generally only been written as one-dimensional characters present in the narrative for comedic purposes or stereotypes, and not as fully-fledged humans with complex internal lives and relationships. As a Problématique Gay, I hate the idea that only perfect queer narratives can exist. Nah, people, queer existence is complex, and queer people are not perfect (although we’re cooler than the str8s). It’s just.... believe me, the continued existence of homophobia is not determined by whether characters in books have the “correct-according-to-you” kind of sex or whatever.
NB: I have to say, as well, that the first time I came across the Phoenix Mountain kiss, I thought (in bad faith) that it had been added just as a sort of unfortunate fan service since the novel was published chapter by chapter. But when I finished the book and thought back on it, the inclusion of the Phoenix Mountain kiss made sense, narratively and thematically. It also forced me to recognise that, even if I had read MDZS before I ever watched CQL, I had started reading MDZS with my own preconceptions (which were certainly not helped by the framing of the translation) : that it would be a middling danmei full of the same tired tropes. I was glad to be proven wrong!
