#got discussion

[rock-and-compass]

Ahhh I'm so happy that EC agrees that it was not Targ madness that led to her burning KL with ruthless ferocity. The actress calls it "anger and grief" (in one of the behind the scenes videos). So Revenge in other words; revenge for Miss Sunday's execution, revenge on the people for not waiting for, and welcoming her return (as she'd been told all her life that they would)... It's a ruthless act;. just as D has always been ruthless in her quest for the Iron Throne. It's pure undiluted anger (D has always had a hot quick temper), it's reactive (yup, something else she's always been), and it's something she's threatened to do on numerous occasions over previous seasons. There was no one there to be the voice of caution (that we've seen her need when she's been inclined to rash action). Just D alone. And she alone makes a choice to show Westeros exactly how powerful she is.

Once you take "Madness" out of the narrative, and replace it with the idea of "choice" her actions are perfectly in character - all her long demonstrated characteristics come together in one ruthless rampage. It's not a surprise. It's not OOC.

And it is interesting that a desire for revenge is the thing that pushes her to realise her ruthless potential. In this episode we have the Hound realising that a life spent serving revenge has not been satisfying and brings him to a fiery redemption, Arya sees what her life will be like if she continues to live it serving revenge and death and Tyrion, regardless of how much he hates his sister, ultimately wants Jamie to save her - the desire for vengeance on her (The thing that made him join team D in the first place) is an empty goal. Big lesson from the episode is that vengence, while satisfying in the short term, asks a high price and rarely leads anywhere good.

[ladytp]

The frequent sentiment I see in GoT fandom right now is “You only complain / say it’s bad writing / don’t like it because you didn’t get what you wanted / your ship didn’t make it / you expected something different.”

And to me, those statements have missed the point so completely it’s not even funny. It is not about what I wanted plot, event or character wise, but what I wanted story-wise.

I can take and enjoy unexpected or unwanted: Daenerys destroying King’s Landing, Jaime returning to Cersei, Cleganebowl – as long as it is organic and based on developments we have seen leading to them. When there has been subtle foreshadowing showing the character wrestling with the issues and drivers that finally push them over the edge and do the thing.

Of course I know it is much easier in books, where one can get into a character’s head and have endless pages to flesh it out – but it is NOT impossible to achieve it even in the film. A meaningful glance, a wordless exchange, a snippet of conversation, a small act revealing the character’s inner turmoil… 

I refuse to believe it wouldn’t have been possible to do those things also in Game of Thrones - because other shows can do it, so why not this one? When John Silver turned against Captain Flint in Black Sails, we had hints that it was coming and no matter how many times you rewatch the series, it still makes sense and you see how and why it happens. When Arya turned against Sansa and they then turned together against Littlefinger, there is no amount of rewatching to make it any clearer than it was the first time (means: it didn’t make sense then and doesn’t make sense now).

That’s why many in ASOIAF fandom are frustrated; not because X didn’t do Y or A and B didn’t get together.

[aliterarywitch]

Can someone genuinely explain to me Varys and Tyrion’s point of view on the whole ‘Dany is the mad queen she’s like her father’ thing? Because as far as I have seen, ever since she set foot in Westeros she has taken their council every single time and shown restrain instead of directly going to burn down KL and Cersei. Right up to the end of episode 4, where she goes to parley with a small number of soldiers at her back. While I love Daenerys as a character and think she’s the most iconic character in the ASOIAF/ GOT world, one of the main reasons I love her is because she’s not a clear cut hero/ villain and more ambiguous. She has the most amount of sheer power in a female character I have ever read about or watched on screen, and that has more to do with Why I like her, not because I think she’s an unscrupulous ‘good guy’, really no one in GOT is.

But Daenerys had several chances to be more ruthless or ‘evil’ in the last two seasons and each and every single time, she wasn’t. She could have attacked Kings Landing immediately upon arrival. Instead she listened to Tyrion’s plans, which failed every single time. Yet she still listened to him. After losing the Iron fleet and Dorne, she did nothing. After losing Highgarden she still didn’t attack innocents. She attacked soldiers who had attacked, robbed and betrayed her and her allies in the reach. She met them on the battlefield with only one of her dragons. It was War, was she supposed to just sit back and do nothing yet again cuz tyrion has strangely complicated feelings about Cersei?

The next time she even gets on a dragon is to go save Jon & co. Beyond the wall, again against Tyrion’s advice, because she has feelings for Jon but also because it’s the right thing to do. She loses a dragon, her child, to save several other characters.

And then she goes to Winterfell with the entire force of her armies to help with the WWs. She trusts Tyrion’s word that Cersei will also make the same decision she did. She doesn’t openly say a word when Sansa and the Northmen are distrustful of her. Instead she speaks to Sansa and Jon in private about the throne and Cersei.

She finds out that the man she loves is not only related to her, but also has a better claim to the throne she’s dedicated her life to and has no time to process this. Then the battle of Winterfell happens and again, if it wasn’t for Dany’s dragons and her armies they wouldn’t have survived five seconds. She burned thousands of wights, saved Jon even though a real ‘mad queen’ would have probably let him die, and when cornered even picked up a sword to defend herself with no training. She lost Jorah, her friend and most trusted advisor, someone she has known and loved for almost a decade.

And then when it’s time to turn her attention to Cersei, Rhaegal is attacked and killed and Missandei, her best friend captured by a real mad woman, and Tyrion and Varys yet again advise against burning down kings landing and she LISTENS.

But now they know she has a more pliable and respectful male relative with the claim to the throne, they begin to conspire against her. As far as I can see Daenerys’ biggest mistake the entire time was trusting Tyrion. She listens to him every time and lost.

Obviously burning down half a million innocents in kings landing is a bad thing to do. But this is war. Innocents die. Its like everyone has forgotten the state of the Riverlands when Robb was at war against the lannisters. Or that Stannis attacked kings landing during the battle of Blackwater to take the throne that was his by right and would have likely killed thousands of people too. And that during Roberts rebellion that is exactly what the Lannister army did on behalf of Robert to overthrow the Targaryens, and everyone hailed Robert king and the good guy/ liberator anyway. Maybe it’s just the dragons, but if you HAVE dragons obviously you’re going to use them. The dragons are still largely seen as ‘good’ in GOT even though dragons have traditionally been villains and obstacles in the fantasy genre.

I just don’t understand the logic. The writing is so bad and this need to judge Daenerys on her words instead of her actions really doesn’t come across right. She’s listened to council every single time she’s wanted to do something impulsive. If you judged every person for the terrible things they said behind closed doors than they’d all be mad kings and queens. From Varys and Tyrion’s perspective, is it really just about having a monarch they can control? Do they realize they’d have died in the crypts if Daenerys wasn’t powerful and ruthless? Possibly before that since Cersei was sending people to assassinate Tyrion after he ran away from KL? Tyrion and Varys have both been absolutely useless to her and she’s still given them respect and listened to their council.

The writers have really committed themselves to destroying Daenerys’ entire arc because this last episode just made no sense. If they had bothered to show a more gradual descent into insanity I might have accepted it but this is just a really horrible way to handle a character. They made her lose everything she ever loved or earned in the span of 5-6 episode just for the sake of drama, and I frankly think it’s an insult to the audience and any person especially any woman who has ever admired or identified with Daenerys and her story.

[freeedomtoobey]

Let's chat.

Okay so

1) why the white horse? Where did it go? Who did it belong to? Harry Strickland?

2) Why did bran warg into crows during the Night King Fight

3) why didnT JOn PET GHOST WHEN HE SAID GOODBYE

4) why were the wildlings still in Castle Black???

5) Arya said time and time again "the lone wolf dies but the pack survives" so why did she just leave her family and yeet off into the west

6) how did Tyrion walk away from the council without Grey Work murdering him right then and there

[xxthewolvenstormxx]

Thank you @tomakeitbeautifultolive for finding this! I was looking for it for like a week and then I gave up. BUT YOU FOUND IT! This is GRRM’s talk with JJHO where they discuss Fire and Blood at the Loew’s Theatre in NJ. 

I really really wanted to see this because JJHO is like my weird internet uncle. I listen to his podcast (Judge John Hodgman)  every week and I was so stoked when I found out he was going to host this event. 

My favorite moment of this whole talk was JJHO and GRRM are discussing the new prequels coming out from HBO, (Its around 44 minute mark) and JJHO asks “Have you considered doing a series in Westeros’s Edwardian period?” (So like 500+ years after the events of Game of Thrones) 

And GRRM just kind of laughs off the question and doesn’t really answer it, but I want to discuss it. 

Some suppositions: 

Jon and Dany parallel Jaehaerys and Alysanne and rule for 50+ years of peace and prosperity. 

Events leading up to this period roughly parallel historical events

A third point that I can’t think of but, this looks weird with just two bullet points

 Discuss

[maevelin]

why the hell do people assume that Rhaegar's annulment automatically makes his first two children bastards? They were conceived and born while their parents were officially husband and wife (otherwise there would have been nothing to annul), therefore they cannot be bastards by definition

It depends on the grounds of the annulment. If Rhaegar aimed to declare his first marriage with Elia initially not legitimate then his kids by her would be considered to be bastards. However he would need a very serious reason for this to even stand and considering the history of marriages in his family tree that would be one hell of a difficult thing to do. I think most people have in their minds King Henry VII and his treatment of Catherine of Aragon and the rest of his wives when they hear the term annulment here.

The problem here is how vaguely this term was used in the show without pointing out any potential implications. The writers only focused on a way to further push Jon’s legitimacy and his claim on the throne without actually thinking all the way through about how they presented what they used as a loophole to fit into their narrative. And since they did not bother with paying more attention to the details and honoring the background of their history as they should then the fans have every right to assume whatever they want when it comes to this. The writing here was superficial and messy and if we take under account only the show’s canon then Rhaegar is not filtered through a very positive light.

But in truth in his case depending on how the annulment was used this could not bring any implications to the line of succession.

This is not just about how Rhaegar treated Elia in a personal level or what happened after that. If we are talking about the annulment here we need to focus on the motives and the characters are play.

We know that Rhaegar fucked up but he was not known for cruelty. Even to his relationship with Elia. People spoke of his ‘noble’ intentions and all that but no where they speak of him as the kind of person that would be cruel and unjust to his own children.

For all we know this could be one way for Rhaegar to not go against the Faith by pushing polygamy that would be a very sensitive issue and more so since he wanted to overthrow his father and would need all the support he could get. That would also include the Martells so despite his divorce with Elia his two first heirs would still be backed up by the House Martell.

I think that at that point in time the Martells hardly cared about Rhaegar’s affair no matter how they truly view it. I think their priorities would be Elia and her kids. To ensure their safety and to promote and protect the interest of Elia and of her children. Both when it came to the imminent threat they were facing (Mad King and even the upcoming Rebellion) and their future position when it came to who would succeed the Mad King and Rheagar. This is very complicated and it becomes more so since Rhaegar married Lyanna and kept her in Dorne. In secrecy yes but how possible would it be for no one to know they were there? Especially the rulers of Dorne. That could not be a coincidence in my opinion. It is contradictory to Rhaegar’s interests so why especially Dorne? Something does not add up.

I think Rhaegar was searching for a convenient loophole to keep everyone happy in terms of power balance. Elia had to be returned to her family safe and sound but The Mad King kept her and their children with him so Rhaegar and the House Martell had to ensure their safety. Rhaegar had to give concessions at both sides while he was obviously still dangling along his obsessions with the prophecies and his potential feelings for Lyanna and his plans to overthrow Aerys (and probably wanted to be certain that he had three children before going up against his father in case he would not win. First he wanted to ensure that the prophecies would come to fruition before he would make his move. He went all wrong about it of course. He was absolutely certain that his House was secure no matter what the outcome of his plans would be. He could not imagine what was planned underneath his nose and what was coming. He already had heirs. Viserys was also alive. His third sibling -the third head of the Dragon from Aerys was in its way-. He took a lot of time. He did not see what was coming and how he and his House would be also betrayed (by the Lords he thought were supporting him) and the rebellion broke out by those that took advantage of his stalling and mistakes and obsessions).

As far the annulment goes he probably wanted to legitimize Jon in terms of legality and not in terms of succession before his first son. And also Rhaegar died before he knew the gender of his third child. He probably believed that he was going to have one more girl and that Aegon from Elia was the Prince from the prophecy. And so he probably aimed to give more legitimacy to his daughter from Lyanna too and make her equal with his other two children so all three of them would be united when their time to rise would come. I think he wanted to make sure that none of his children would be bastards and not the other way around.

Do not forget that Rhaegar was obsessed with the Dragon having three heads. That does not only mean that he would do anything to get the third child. It also means that he wanted above anything else and before anything else to ensure that he would have three children no matter what. That meant he cared for all three and believed that all three had a role to play to how the prophecies would unfold including anything concerning the Prince that was Promised and/or Ahor Ahai and the Long Night.

Ironically he was not that wrong. I know that his obsession make him seem nutty (which he probably was lol) but he was not wrong was he? The Long Night was coming. The signs were there. Magic was returning to the world. Either Jon is the Prince that was Promised or he is an intricate part of that prophecy in the end Rhaegar was right in believing that his child (if not children) would have a great role to the Great war. But prophecies are never clear and you cannot control them or even translate them accurately. And if the Dragon had to have three heads then in the show those that were left were Daenerys, Viserys and Jon and Viserys died and so did the dragon that was named after him and now belongs to the Night’s King. So the Dragon does have to have three heads (let us put a question mark in books for the whole Griff thing).

And in all that mess we are still to know what Elia’s stance was in all of this. We know how her story ended and we know how people decades later have portrayed her (as a victim, as collateral damage, as a loving mother, as a martyr and even a saint etc etc) but we hardly know anything about her true agency. About how her mind worked and how she was able to play the game. Before we victimize her and give all power to Rhaegar we should truly think of who Elia truly was. She was a Martell. She was the woman that rose to power through marriage and was meant to become a Queen and the mother of the future ruler of Westeros. She was brought up in a Kingdom with powerful individuals that accepted and respected women in position of power. Her siblings have been portrayed as empowered characters but all we know about Elia is that she was the victim of the story. And now an annulment is thrown at us carelessly. I feel that her voice is missing form all of this. In the same way I think that for example Margaery Tyrell’s true agency and voice will be missing in a few decades later and history will portray her as a different person from who she truly was. History is written by the victors after all and true facts and characters are lost in obscurity.

[tillythemenace]

The primary problem is that the writers have gone past the books, and they have a budget. I'm still enjoying it, but I know it can be better. Also, I haven't read the leaks, so don't spoil it. Last;y, I don't ship anyone on the show because I would like the avoid the heartache when one of them dies.

Yeah I feel like that’s the real issue here… We have NO idea if Dany and Jon would fall in love in the books???  And if they do would it be in these circumstances??? But I’m still not buying it???? Because the show is totally making that canon and I honestly don’t see it (plus aunt and naphew???) 

I think George has something better in mind but we don’t have the books so we don’t know and that’s kinda frustrating.

I’m just… I-I don’t want to spoil…. I guess you’ll see it in the finale but… I mean the subplot in Winterfell with Arya and Sansa… don’t worry it’s not going anywhere… it’s literally pointless and it will be so unrewarding… Also the subplot with Jaime and Cersei, again. You’ll just wait and see.

But for know I’m just going to distance myself from this whole thing, good thing I wasn’t even part of the fandom though, those Jonerys shippers are giving me a headache. Guess I’ll see ya?? :)