#logomancy

[kitzatara]

https://www.tumblr.com/scarlet--wiccan/763877765424545792/could-you-explain-more-in-depth-why-you-dont-find?source=share https://www.tumblr.com/scarlet--wiccan/763542245293129728/what-are-the-aspects-of-marvel-magic-that-do?source=share

This is a really interesting perspective, I'd like to see your response to this

For me, I love Zatanna’s backwards speech because it is unique. There are almost no other characters from other media who use backwards speech to cast spells. It’s rare, and that makes it interesting to me.

I also love it because it is a reference to Leonardo Da Vinci writing his journals so that they could only be read in a mirror. Him being her ancestor and they original reason why they cast spells by talking backwards is fun. It’s just a fun wacky concept to play with.

It’s also technically a language you can learn, If you really wanted to lol. Which is true for a couple other common spell languages like latin, or even elvish from lord of the rings. Backwards is just slightly easier since it’s just reversing words in english. It’s instantly translatable, and allows you to be privy to what her spell will do. It’s like they’re telling you a secret on the page, or like decoding her magic. Which I feel just contributes to the fun wackiness of it all.

I guess I will somewhat counter two of their points. Firstly in my opinion, all magic is a command, while Billy and Nico do have different styles, at the end of the day they are also giving a command. Because that’s what magic is. Commanding the world around you with language, usually through a specific way, or language.

Billy’s is through chants, and Nico’s are commands through her staff. Others like I said use latin, some use rhymes, or song.

Others use gestures and hand movements which is still a type of language. It’s communication through the body. To me spells don’t require wordplay and I’ve never considered Zatanna’s backwards magic to be lacking in wordplay but I’ve also never felt it necessary to enjoy spells. Sure it’s fun, but in my mind the notion that her spells lack word play can be applied to most spells and magic systems.

And while I suppose it can be said Zatanna’s spells often don’t have a lot of wordplay, I can think of a few times that they did, or that they were references that were turned into spells which I find to be really fun.

This spell being song lyrics, and a pose from the iconic band queen

Spells like these being references to popular phrases: open sesame, hello stranger, still as stone.

Or the time she saved the day entirely through palindromes.

I also like this one where she uses go to time out as a dimensional portal, and rac fo Sdrac because it also rhymes while being backwards.

Again it’s not often but it is there on occasion, some writers do have fun with it. But at the end of the day, most of their issues are opinion based. I can’t do much to change their mind, other than just tell you why I like her backwards and will always find it interesting and fun.

[dumbassalex]

So like...does this mean Damian knows magic and can use it? At least some simple runes and spells that Zatanna (and Constantine) could teach him (meaning Zatannas Logomancy)?

[aboutzatanna]

Do You think the Zatara's backward magic is linked to real stuff or real-world culture about magic? I remember encountering this meme and it seems there is this general belief that backward stuff is magical in nature in people's unconsciousness

(Sorry for late reply)

Well, in the real world, backwards speech is associated with pseudo science that believes that there are hidden secret messages if you reverse someone's speech but it's largely been debunked. Link

English occultist Aleister Crowely recommended practicing backwards speech and writing and even the listening to music and phonograms backwards. This lead to various conspiracies directed at the music industry accusing them of backwards masking. Link Link

From a scientific perspective, backwards speech can be a sign of OCD (link) or a condition called Palialia or you have a good working memory and your brain in just wired well (link, link).

In the Zatara's case, the backwards speech was inspired by Leonardo Da Vinci, their canonical ancestor, who often wrote his manuscripts backwards. Speculated by some that it was to hide his secrets from enemies ooooor he was just left handed and didn't want ink smudges.

The Zataras being OCD might make for fun Elseworlds. But I think I prefer it as a learned skill that just happens to be derived from their Homo Magi genes.

Thus far, Paul Dini is the one writer I have read who made me realize that yes, Zatanna would be a fast thinker and a great improviser because you would need to think fast to be able to think a sentence, reverse it in your head then cast it during life/death situations.

[namor-the-submariner-dot-net]

365 Days With Namor 2019

Day 12

"Without him, no true magic is possible."

IOW, Namor is magical!

What Namor fans have been saying since 1939.

[kitzatara]

I know fans using the term Logomancy to refer to her backward magic, but I felt like there's more meaning to the title itself. The suffix "-mancy" actually refers to divination and prophecy. Therefore, any word ending in "-mancy" describes a form of divination, such as cartomamcy, which uses cards or tasseomancy, which uses tea leaves. So, Logomancy here basically means divination using words.

Just some thoughts about this! Also, I felt like only speaking backward to do magic is quite limiting to the term. Consider my interpretation, Logomancy could do much more like for example, with word play and riddles and stuff, IMO.

Okay so I have lots have thoughts about all this. I have a farfetched explanation for the logomancy, i don’t think backwards speaking is limiting, and she has cast spells lots of different ways in the past, so let’s get into it!

So with the mancy thing, I think it’s really funny/interesting how any type of mancer has come to mean that’s the type of powers they have as opposed to meaning divination. Like across all modern fantasy media everyone knows necromancers as people who raise the dead and have death magic powers. I do kinda wish it would go back but, not

With Zatanna i like that it’s called Logomancy because it’s a pretty unique type. Not many other characters are referred to a logomancer. It sounds cool, it’s camp lol. But you can kinda make it fit as “divination” because everything she says backwards comes true. So you can almost classify her spells as predictions that just immediately come true. It is a stretch but it’s technically true. She also does have the power to see the future and can do tarot so she can canonically divine with her magic, which helps it be defined as a divinatory power lol.

And she has cast spells with rhymes, through song, palindromes, runes, she’s done a whole lot.

Moving on to logomancy being limiting, and sorry this will get a bit ranty but I disagree. There’s this weird discourse around Zatanna speaking backwards to do magic and this idea that because she speaks it’s not practical, or that it means other magic users have an advantage of some kind. Which just isn’t true, and even if it were I think people forget that supeheroes are inherently impractical. They’re all a little silly, a little campy, it’s entertainment and we don’t need to logic our way around speaking backwards to cast spells.

And I’ve noticed characters with vocal powers in particular catch a lot of flack, “they need to use their voice/mouth” as if super strength doesn’t require muscle, or speedsters don’t need legs, or green lanterns don’t need appendages, or that psychics need brains, etc. All of them need something to use their powers, yet Zatanna and vocal heroes get treated like it’s a weakness which goes back to her powers being constantly disrespected.

Yes, Zatanna can do magic without speaking, but I don’t think that should be the norm,and I don’t want her doing nonverbal magic more than her backwards spells. She shouldn’t have to do nonverbal magic in order for her to be taken seriously or not be treated as a threat and powerful. And I feel that these discussions about having to prove she can do magic without talking shouldn’t really be a discussion. Logomancy is as old as Superman, it’s a tradition as old as DC’s premier Superhero and I’m tired of pretending that she’s somehow limited by using it.

Writers constantly gag her to depower her and if we want to talk practically it’s actually so difficult to prevent someone from speaking. And even if it weren’t, Zatanna is one of the top escape artists in DC continuity. Her Batman and Mr Miracle are the trinity of escapology, and we’re saying rope and duct tape can hinder her? And if it really were her weakness she could very easily take precautions to prevent that from happening. And then all of that is moot because she really can do magic without speaking and does it all the time.

It’s just frustrating because there’s so much to unpack with the discussion and so much history to disprove it. That’s the end of the rant part lol

Sknaht rof eht ksa!

[aboutzatanna]

My head canon about Zatanna's backwards magic:

When she first started using her father's magic she realised that she could cast them by speaking normally but it either does not work or it isn't effective*. Like trying to turn a screw with your hand rather than with a screw driver. But if she cast them by speaking them backwards then it's more effective. If she says entire sentences backwards, it's even more effective. Over time she realised the more proficient she got at her magic, the less specific she had to be about her spells and that she could do more with fewer words. Later on she could do things like levitate and move objects without casting a spell first. If she is rusty, she would do entire sentences backwards until she gets her groove back. If it's a big spell, she would use more words.

Also, I like to think that more goes on in her head when she casts her spells and it isn't just an act of speaking backwards. Like how in web development; the casting part is just the front end (which looks simple) but the backend is all the heaps of code that makes it work, in her case the backend would be all the stuff that goes on in her mind while she is casting spells.

*That is, if she is trying to channel her father's stream of magic. She can cast spells by speaking forward by channelling her mother's magic. But her mothers magic also requires artifacts to stabilise and as we saw in the mini, can also attract Eldritch Abominations.

[aboutzatanna]

Would you like to add some of the mechanics to Zatann's magic? Y'know, just to make it more unique, give her some limit

Well, speaking backwards is pretty unique onto itself.

I would say for limit; she is limited to the magical energy within herself and whatever magical energy she can draw from her surroundings.

I'm not a fan of her casually warping reality or time travel. That can be addressed by something like "its easier to undo someone else's tampering and restore reality than to warp reality myself" or "a sufficient illusionist can always fake reality warping or time traveling".

Generally, I'm a fan of 'the bigger the spell, the bigger the magical energy required and the more preparation required'. Like, when she helped restore Metropolis in Adventures of Superman #522 after it was destroyed; it took her, Superman, Martian Manhunter and Perry White working together to restore everything back to the way it used to be. I like that it took some preparation and setting up necessary conditions for the spell to work.