#pagan discourse

[cultkinkcoven]

Y'know I've always found the godspouse debate to be so strange because like

Why is this the one thing that is off the table?

The Gods can curse us, right? They can punish us for insolence, they teach us hard lessons and give us tough love. They guide us, raise us. The Gods are said to watch humanity closely. They thrive on our worship, they enjoy our consistency and commitment, they want to be known by us more than anything else.

Why is the concept of a God loving a human, like, really loving them completely, so far fetched?

Why is it so much less likely than receiving wrath?

"Humans are not special or holy enough to marry Gods!"

But we are special and holy enough to be constantly kept by them? I am just human enough to receive guidance and support, but too human to receive love?

The Gods probably don't experience love the way humans do. They also probably don't experience time like us either. Yet still, the Gods understand how long 5 years is for me, even if to them, it is less than a blink. They know how important food and shelter are to me. They even like to indulge in good food with us through offerings. We can offer them alcohol, cakes, steaks, and incense, but if you try to offer genuine love, that's too far.

And if you have any sort of inclining that they are offering love in return, that's delusional.

Gods of Chaos, Gods of madness, Gods of Love itself, are beyond love's influence? Immune to favouritism and personal investment? Why?

Why wouldn't a God like Dionysus be interested in how love and madness shape a devotee? Why wouldn't he want to explore what happens when the mortal and divine are equal in their fanaticism?

What is Henosis if not communing with the divine on genuine terms?

I understand the concern that comes with the "fandomication" of religious spaces, and respecting the divine as divine. I am more than happy to have constructive conversations about psychosis, and wish we did far more in this community.

But I don't know why the pursuit of that respect always seems to come with placing limitations on the divine. Saying "no, they can't love, certainly not you!" Because of fear of dilution, without understanding that love is synthesis. No, it probably isn't a great idea to refer to a God you are not extremely comfortable with long term as your boyfriend.

But in acknowledging that -that respect should always be maintained- I don't have to claim that Apollon is incapable of falling in love with a human being. Or that all people who are in a relationship with Apollon are disrespecting him.

I feel more like I am disrespecting Apollon when I speak about his private relationships as an outsider. What gives me the right? Who gave me that authority?

I personally have never received anything even remotely intimate from Apollon or Hermes, they are very clearly not for me. But I would feel arrogant saying that Hermes and Apollon are uninterested in humanity in general simply because they are not romantically interested in me.

The Gods watch humanity for millennia, right?

You're telling me that among the over 7 billion + humans that have lived on this planet, none of them were particularly favoured by Shiva, Dionysus, Selene or Loki?

I'm sorry, but I find that incredibly hard to believe. I find it far harder to believe that the Gods have never loved men, than the idea that Loki may have love his human wife as much as she loves him. Most traditions already include favored mortals, Demigods, divine lovers, chosen devotees are common motifs.

Total denial contradicts mythology itself.

"The Gods aren't human! They can never be your husband!"

Yes, the Gods are not human. Believing they are will lead to intense heart ache.

Why can I not love my God as a God, and why can he not love me as a human? Why can we not explore that space with consideration of the difficulty? Why isn't surviving that challenge, learning how to hold fire without being burned, not celebrated as an achievement?

I don't need him to drive me home or make me a pizza. He doesn't need me to surround him with protective light or bestow him with guidance and blessings. If I can love a God for being a God, can he not love me for being a man?

Is it not possible, that the Gods are as infatuated with the corporal and limited, as we are with the infinite and eternal? Aren't we just meeting in the middle at the end of the day?

Idk. I've just always found it so strange.

The Gods will lead you, curse you, force you to evolve.

But love you? Really love you? Kiss you? Hold you?

Want to stay beside you every day?

That's too good to be true?

I thought they said that God is good.

I guess I choose to continue believing that. 🤷‍♂️

[actiwitch]

Probably will get shit for this, but I am SO tired of seeing God spousing shit everywhere.

I mean no hate towards the act of actual God spousing!!! but the way the internet (particularly tiktok) has created and popularized it into something that is almost entirely people intentionally attention seeking and/or in some degree of delusion is worrying and disrespectful.

Apollo is not your baby girl. Loki is not your boyf who loves watching horror movies with you. They are not your husband. They are not uwu making you blush and giggle and kick your feet. They are not sliding a hand down your pants and making you c>m. You are not pregnant with their astral children. And no, most people are not god spoused.

The problem is not that it's a different path than me. I don't care about that. I love different paths, even the "cringe" ones like pop culture worship and digital magic and etc etc. And even things I dislike/do cringe a bit at such as "left hand path" or "dark witchcraft" or "black magic witch" are not a problem! Just because something isn't for me (or someone else) doesn't make it dangerous or problematic.

My problem is (varying degrees of) spiritual delusion and psychosis, appropriation and misrepresentation of actual practices, and disrespect towards deities and paganism as a whole. Which is most of what I see in online god spousing spaces. (And unfortunately often in online pagan + witch communities as a whole, which I've discussed before.)

Please. You are 16 (often.) Delete those Tumblr posts and Tiktoks. Just move on. Learning and growing is normal and good! We have all been through phases or beleifs we cringe at and leave in the past. You have no reason to cling to bs. Stop the disrespect (to both the Gods and your own mind), and make something legitimately beautiful for yourself in your practice. Learning and growing is normal and good!!!

[imheredisappointingmyparents]

I may get hate for this but I want to know, how godspousing is not hubris? Where is the thin line?

Like you are telling me you saying you are dating a deity is not hubris? Is a humble thing that is totally normal for a mortal?

Or is it [look at the edit note] and you are claiming that most married deities would choose you while they have a deity spouse??

I mean it does depend whether it is normal or not. But like seriously?? Turning sexualising Lucifer, Loki and, with all respect, who knows who else, into a quirky trend? Please.

Edited: One of the replies called me slightly ableist so I'd like to elaborate what I mean. First of all, I'm not native in English (as you can see by my name) and this is the closest to the word I was trying to say. I apologize.

Second of all. It looks like taking your complexes (insecurities?) and trying to hide them by saying you are married to a deity.

Third of all. I guess it is ok to do such a thing if you have some big social anxiety or something but there was this one dude who said rejected Persephone three times, which is hubris (I know, shocking /s).

[cavorta]

Recommendable read. Pagan deities are not here for our entertainment, for memes and such. As Viv points out, they should be treated with respect.

Pagan Gods Are Not Your Friends

The Gods Are Not Characters: On Respect, Tradition, and Sacred Beings

[gnosis-devotee]

Get this fuckin AI art out of my paganism. I just wanna watch silly little videos of pagans and witches talking about their practices and all I get is AI thumbnails of AI music. Not to mention all the amount of people with concerning takes, both within and outside of the pagan community.

I wish I knew pagan people IRL. No hate on my mutuals ILY, but so much of the stuff on line is so problematic and harmful misinformation. It would be nice to just have a chat over some tea and not feel like I have to educate people so the harmful ideas don’t get spread all willy-nilly

[sigynsilica]

Friendly reminder that if you believe there is only one right thing to believe in regards to faith and religion, and all the other beliefs are stupid, ill-informed, cults, immature, etc., you are operating under evangelical rhetoric.

This goes for anti-theists, exvangelicals who are trying to "rescue" others from the church, actual Christian Evangelicals, or anyone else who is actively trying to get other people to align their beliefs with their own.

So remember, kids. It's not okay to tell other people what to and what not to believe. Just because you don't find value in religion, or were harmed by religion, doesn't mean others don't or weren't. Your experiences are not universal.

[ariesunappreciated]

It's just crazy to me that people actually stand on the "YOU HAVE TO BE A WOMAN TO BE A WITCH" thing. And then name off ways that both men and women were persecuted for being witches.

Not only that but then they're like no a SPECIFIC type of woman the REAL woman who can HAVE KIDS and has been ABUSED BY MEN.

Like. Why is this all over this hellsite like men and women werent performing magic throughout the ages. "Witchcraft" wasnt something that those people wanted to be associated with. Because they were doing magic but they weren't witches. Up until recently witches were considered BAD.

Even in pagan communities where the magic is embedded within people's daily lives- especially historically, they weren't witches. They didn't call themselves that. They were wise men and women, teachers, philosophers, healers, etc. etc. But never once to themselves were they witches.

Men and women have always been apart of the craft, they didn't just do their ritual and one day and then continue on with their lives for the week- magic wasn't something to take off or put on. It grows in the Earth. It fed them, and clothed them. It gave them land and sea and air. Magic was in and around everything, everywhere. It wasn't called magic, it was just life.

Witches, in European countries specifically, were believed to stop the crops from growing. To bring sickness upon your house. There were wards and charms and prayers to specific gods to keep them away. To protect livestock and households from their "bad" magic.

Witch was not a nice thing to be associated with. Please learn the history of the word y'all are using. Witches today are not what witches of the past were.

And men have always been included in the craft. It's embarrassing to put these labels on these things. They'll defend it by saying creating life was the first magic, and the source of divine power blah-blah whatever. To create life you have to have a man and a woman. An unplanted field isn't going to grow new crops. The creation of life isn't an entirely female process. The nurturing of the fetus is, but more goes into creating life than just giving birth.

Y'all have to get out of this man=bad woman=good mindset. Men are not infringing themselves upon your sacred space. Men have always been welcomed. There are things that are specific to women, ie. The flame tenders of Bríde/Bríghd, and there are things specific to men. But magic, creation, has no gender and never has.

[wildbeewitch]

What popular misconceptions about Celtic mythology annoy you the most?

Haha. Oof. That’s a big question. As a historian, I mostly struggle with the co-option of the idea of “Celtic” for purposes the word was not intended for.

Celtic is not a single group or “race”. It’s not a single pantheon or mythology or even culture. It’s not inherently pagan.

It’s a language group and art style developed over time in migration across most likely north Africa, Spain and then western Europe, Britain and Ireland.

This is all a fascinating field of study. One that’s full of disagreements and the re-examining of data over years. British “pan-celtic” Victorian scholars led to a lot of bad history that then got absorbed into 1960s neo-pagan movements including but not limited to Wicca and led to a whack of mostly North American people online looking for some easy “Celtic” heritage that fill a spiritual gap they feel in their lives.

People finding faith, spirituality or practise that makes them feel fulfilled and connected to things outside themselves or inside themselves is valuable and brilliant. But history and culture are not simple, easily tailored things.

This isn’t about diaspora, I’ve been Irish diaspora myself for five years now and I don’t know if I’ll get to move home. I know a lot of London-Irish, a few generations in, who are just that. London-Irish. Ireland is an increasingly open culture, which is fantastic. Most of my friends when I still lived in Dublin were recent or first generation immigrants to Dublin. The streets in the inner city I grow up on have Korean and Nigerian community growing up in them. All of this is Irish too because being Irish is not some Celtic cosplay opportunity.

It’s a worryingly short step between the people who twist Irish history for their own spiritual purposes and the people who twist it for far-right political agendas.

Irish American “news” sites like Irish Central sit comfortably in the middle of these things. It’s something that’s hard for Irish people to articulate why it makes us uncomfortable sometimes.

Thinking this might not make me very popular in pagan discourse but that’s life.