#talzin

[sithextant]

homecoming

[stealingpotatoes]

Hi, I remember your post in which it is mentioned, that Han won Dathomir in a game of Sabacc. Does that mean, that Talzin lost that game against him? Does she have a gambeling problem?

I haven't read the legends book the other ask was talking about, but that must be it!! talzin needs help

(commission info // kofi support!)

[passionesolja]

As a Sith Pureblood Stan, I support my morally ambiguous faves no matter what. So Im not against morally bankrupt Star Wars cultures.

But ima say that it's baffling to me that Star Wars refuses to be candid about what the Nightsisters are. Even in the Maul show, they don't address the elephant in the room.

Dawg, the Nightsisters keep the Nightbrothers as slaves/second class citizens, then they randomly select one, fuck them, get pregnant and kill the man.

Im sorry but did Sidious not free Maul from that life? Talzin didnt give a fuck. Talzin was happy to let Feral get killed by his own brother on Ventress' say so. Why are we romanizing and lying about what Maul's fate wouldve been?

Like in Darth Plagueis the novel, Maul's OG mom, Kycina, gives him to Palpatine as an infant bc she doesn't want that fate for him. And bc he looks like a wealthy human who can get her son out of this fucked up life path hes forced to be on. Hell, Sidious never even changes Maul's name. Bro pulls a Golden Age Era Sith Lord and just adds Darth to it.

It's bleak, but Legends never sugarcoated shit or didnt address it. Maul was never gonna have a fantastic life. Let's be so fr, Sidious gave Maul a better life than he was gonna have as a Nightbrother

This show will not gaslight me into being pro-Talzin. Why don't they ever address what happened to Maul's father? Is that not something they have the ability to speak on?

Mf, the lady wouldve given him to some other Nightsister In an arranged marriage. The Nightsister wife wouldve used him, got pregnant, and killed him.

Theyre scared of addressing this bc Maul's life is a grey area. Sidious did save Maul from a life a couple time used then killed walking sperm bank. Talzin doesnt want Maul back for any other reason but subjection.

I promise, if Maul had his dick Talzin wouldnt have let him off Dathomir. Thats the real tea that theyre scared to address bc it makes Sidous look like a better person. God forbid Sidious not be the most fucked up in a situation though. So we gotta pretend that Nightsisters and Talzin are good people.

[seashellisinmyheart]

I think Mother Talzin had to deal with a great deal of guilt for her initial association with Sideous. If it weren't for that, Maul would never have been taken.

At this point in the comic, she knew she was fighting a losing battle and she could have rolled the dice and tried to escape with Maul, but instead, she chose to do what she could not do before. Which was to protect her child even at the cost of her own life.

I know she did some pretty f-ed up things, but there's something deeply admirable about that.

[edge-lorde]

Some Maul shadow lord stuff from a legends Maul and nightsister origin enjoyer….

I liked it, over all! The only major thing that I didn’t like about it is that they imply Maul went to Sidious as an older child with memories of his family before being taken. That might be the current disney canon, but imo it doesn’t make sense given that MSL is building off his clone wars backstory, and THAT was built off concepts from pre-disney lore, and the post disney stuff I’ve seen contradicts itself. But, I think it was left open ended enough to allow for a younger start for him and I will explain in due time under the cut.

But first, I really like how this was allowed to be so close to a gritty character study. It feel like they're actually following through some of the concepts clone wars put forth to their logical conclusions while still following the parameters of an action adventure show. They couldn’t do that and make Maul the actual main character of the show because in the same way psychiatrists have enough material to work with to diagnose Anakin Skywalker with BPD (Bui et al., 2011), Maul is a man with CPTSD (Edgelorde, 2026) and spending eight full episodes in his mindset would not be a “fun” romp, as it were.

Especially since Maul is one of Star Wars’ most marketable characters with fans with different knowledge levels of the lore. I think Clone Wars and the animation fans are the true meat and potatoes fanbase for Maul at this point, but there’s still the live action only people and the larger Image of the Brand that has to be upheld-- it sucks that is the nature of big franchise art, but it is what it is-- and that means that Maul can be beat up, he can scream and cry on screen, but he can never ever ever be depicted as uncool. This is a major limiting factor in the kinds of appearances he can have in new sw material.

I think that’s why MSL was allowed to get more adult in tone-- because for him to have a shows worth of dedicated story his deficiencies have to be dwelt on somewhat and can not be laughed off or implied off screen.

Idk if its specifically his writing style, but one thing I’ve noticed in Dave Filoni’s sw shows is that there is a tendency to set up story beats with serious implications, that sometimes do effect the plot in major ways, and just have them happen off screen and never address them directly, but imply them with set pieces, props, costume changes, etc. The most egregious example of this that comes to mind is the central conflict between the main characters in Ahsoka, Ahsoka and Sabine, which was never fully explained. This was the biggest criticism of that show when it came out, but it also happened in it’s predecessor Rebels where they imply Kanan became depressed and Erza had to step into his role in between seasons. I think this is a technique that comes from writing children's shows, because its understood that the show can’t really go there, so when the serious themes are implied they “count” as the show addressing them, where as adult audiences expect to see interpersonal drama actually play out.

Which is why I was pleasantly surprised with how this show was handled. It didn’t show Maul engaging in a ton of interpersonal drama, a lot of that stuff is still only implied, like his dynamic with Rook, but when he displays symptoms of mental illness its played as dead serious. I don’t think it quite tips over into being a true adult show but it toes the line.

In this we see Maul masking as hard as he possibly can. He wants more than anything to recruit Devon as his apprentice for his own personal reasons, knows he can fail because his encounter with Ahsoka in TCW is still canon. He has every reason to put his best foot forward in his recruiting efforts. He serves her tea the way the Mandolorians served him tea when they recruited him in TCW. It’s even confirmed was even raised at least partially by Sidious! He should know how to be persuasive and believes in his cause. And yet bro can’t make it 10 minutes. As soon as he starts talking about his past he starts physically shaking with fear or rage.

I struggle to believe this guy could keep any kind of social club going at all, much less a large organization. I do feel like making him the long term leader of any type of gang the weakest point of the writing choices the writers made for him in the clone wars era, but I’m glad that this show addresses it by continuing the events of the comic series Son of Dathomir.

To those who don’t know, that is a 4-issue stand alone comic based on pre-written episodes for TCW that were never finished after cartoon network canceled the show. Basically what happens in it is Maul uses his crime syndicate’s resources to pursue his own personal bullshit, is totally cool with letting Mandolorians and his other underlings die for this cause they know very little about, and it results in a lot of the gangs he terrorized into joining him in TCW deserting. The revenge he seeks over the other crime lords in MSL is for this desertion. Rook is the only named Mandolorian from these events still with him. Its not a coincidence that she is the only mando wearing Maul themed armor; in the comic and I think TCW too he had a whole little posse, who are now all either dead or disenfranchised. It would have been nice to see more of this dynamic on screen but this is an example of costumes of props used to imply stuff. Rook lived to see that Maul is repeating old patterns over again and how he handles betrayal. She’s kind of stuck being this guy’s lackey because if she even tries to extricate herself at this point it would put a target on her back, but staying around him could get her killed too, and yet Maul still seems to take her support for granted.

Bro has 0 social sense. He doesn’t realize how tenuous his relationships are to his followers or how to strengthen them. Rook has to explain to him that people won’t continue to work for him just because he is in charge, that relationships require give and take. It is in his active best interest to learn how maintain professional relationships, if only because he is still using the syndicate’s resources to pursue his personal bullshit, and said bullshit involves forming a relationship with another person, and he still can not do it even when actively trying. This is one of the main reasons I don’t think it makes sense for him to have been old enough to form memories of his life on Dathomir before going to Sidious because he’s consistently written like this, pre and post disney. Like he’s emotionally stunted to the degree that he can’t form normal attachments anymore.

To him, all relationships are hierarchical. Any Maul analysis youtube video or forum post will tell you this. Someone is always the boss, and someone is always the underling. This is why he called Savage his apprentice in TCW. He doesn’t know what a familial relationship really is and can’t deal with the ambiguity of being someones brother. He’s fine when the social roles are clear, and he’s fine in either position IF the roles are clear. I argue he was fine with being the underling to Talzin in TCW, and not because he remembered her as his mother (I have my own theories). But he doesn’t understand why people do the things that they do. He doesn’t understand why someone would do something because they like it OR why they would not do something because they don’t like it. He’s never done either. This is why he yaps to Ahsoka that they would have to kill Anakin while trying to recruit her, even after trying to show good will by returning a clone hostage, saying he had a brother once. He still thinks she’d be fine killing Anakin because he can’t imagine not wanting to kill someone actually stopping them from doing it if the logic to do so was sound.

In the old lore he was raised in a sith master/apprentice style relationship since INFANCY. That was his only socialization until past his formative years.

IF he remembered having a family life, surely he would be able to at least understand the basic components of human relationships even if he struggles with them now? He’s not a loner. He is consistently always seeking out other people even if only to get revenge or bend them to his will. Leaving home as an older child, he surely would have had likes and dislikes, and more friendships than just with his brother or mother, as is shown in his flashback vision. Basically there is a difference in the way he is written vs other rough around the edges characters in sw.

Compare him to say, Anakin, or Ventress, who both had traumatic up-bringings but still formed attachments to caregivers. Both of them are shown to be capable of change. Maul is fundamentally different BECAUSE he never fell to the dark side, he was forced into it. Anakin fell to the dark side because of his unhealthy attachments, Maul can’t leave the dark side because he has no and can’t form healthy attachments. That has to be what the writers are going for. Nothing else makes sense.

Which brings me back to my theory about his backstory still being open to interpretation...

There’s one glaring omission from Maul’s TCW stint that was not addressed, and that is Talzin and the nightsisters. Maybe they are hoping for future seasons to explore that in.

I like how they used the night brother duo to reintroduce Savage to non clone wars fans. We get to see how the cycle is repeating itself over and over in front of him. And the tying of Maul’s character to the story of Icarus? A boy defying his father only to fly too close to the sun and die, when in Maul’s case he’s trying to escape his abuser and break the cycle? But is doomed because the audience already knows how he dies? Like Hello?????

But without the context of the nightsisters/brothers and Dathomir, where would movie only fans think these guys came from? The show kind of implies that Mauls tattoos represent the sith fueled traumatized person that he has become, which is why his younger self has them very faint, almost to imperceptibility. That’s a pre TCW legends concept, but it doesn’t make sense with these two random non sith guys here with the tattoos too.

In Son of Dathomir, there is a discrepancy in opinion of how Maul came to live with Sidious. Sidious says he didn’t want him, but Talzin just gave him up. Talzin says Maul was stolen. But in the flashback in MSL we only see Maul going of his own free will, Savage begging him not to go. I think this is because Maul can’t conceive of a version of events where what happened to him is not somehow his fault. That even though he forgives his young self now, he can’t imagine that his fate was completely outside his control.

And added to that, he can’t imagine that Talzin could be involved at all, even though she’s only mentioned in passing once in this show. His canon interactions with her from TCW and son of Dathomir include:

Her restoring his legs and sanity.

Her teaming up with him to plot against Sidious of her own volition after Savage was murdered.

Her literally possessing him, but also being a better boss to him than Sidious.

Her calling him her son.

HER DYING WHILE PROTECTING HIM FROM SIDIOUS.

This would bias anyone in her favor. Maul doesn’t know she also waited 10+ years to rescue him, and arranged for Savage to kill his real brother.

I think he’s forming false memories of how the exchange happened, and imaging a life for himself that never happened and never even could have happened. This means there’s no version of him without the tattoos. There’s no pre trauma version of himself that can be mended. The nightbrothers did not exactly have it good on Dathomir and if he hadn’t been taken, who knows what would have become of him, least of all Maul!

What I’d really like to see going forward is for Katie Lucas to come back as a writer! She was in charge of the nightsisters arc and the Maul arc in The Clone Wars! There was a long sequence of Ventress and Maul and Savage’s stories being wound around each other and tbh, that’s what I’m the most a fan of in Star Wars and it just kind of petered out.

Now that we know disney can greenlight gritty animated character focused shows, fuck it, I want a gritty Ventress show!

While I like many things about MSL, like I like Devon as a kid who lived to see the system her people used to rely on crumble. I love how she’s an echo of Eldra Kaitis from a different comic, who is herself maybe inspired by Kilindi from the young reader novel.

I like how this is the first time a quirky robot character has been a narc for the state. I like how it is setting up conflicts around what do you do when the fascists are people you care about?

I like how Maul’s robot legs reveal was set up by a robot that wears boots, afhkrhgerhystk.

I don’t like Maul’s annoying talking robot…. But it makes sense that the only entity he could perform affection at (he doesn’t really pet it, just kind of puts his hand on it and then takes it off.) is something he built himself and it is ugly because 1) if it looked to good it would imply he has hobbies which he doesn’t. And 2) if it looked too bad or cute it would make Maul look uncool.

But Katie Lucas brought a sort of gender sauce to sw that this new show is missing so far…. Everyone takes for granted Talzin is Maul’s real biological mother when she lied to people constantly…. There’s so much stuff that was left on the table in TCW and could be explored….

Citation (I only cite when it's funny)

Bui E, Rodgers R, Chabrol H, Birmes P, Schmitt L. Is Anakin Skywalker suffering from borderline personality disorder? Psychiatry Res. 2011 Jan 30;185(1-2):299. doi: 10.1016/j.psychres.2009.03.031. Epub 2010 May 26. PMID: 20537718.

[a-verytall-rat]

I am loving the star wars/wof mix! Could you do Mother Talzin as a dragon? Which tribe do you think she'd be?

sorry this took so long to get to! i think Mother Talzin would be a sand/night hybrid. i dont know about the other night sisters (they might be just sand) i dont know this character quite as well so i dont have a ton of reasoning other than having already decided Maul and Savage are sandwings

[thedarkangel74]

The Truth of Maul (theory)

Darth Maul is a legendary character of the Star Wars mythos, ever since his first appearance in the Phantom Menace over 20 years ago.

GIF by taule

There has always been an air of mystery around him. And his origins have differed between Legend comics and the new canon. But with the release of the Rise of Skywalker, I think I figured out Maul's true origins.

In the Clone Wars comic: Son of Dathomir, we learned how Sidious came to have Maul in his possession. As we know that When Sideous was younger, he met with Maul's mother, the leader of Dark Side Witches. There the two met and "Mingled in Darkside abilities", as part of Sidious's quest to gain power. And Sideous would then declare Talzin to be his new apprentice.

However, seeing Maul's potential, he would then kidnap him and raise him to be a Sith Lord, up until his fall by the hands of Obi-Wan Kenobi. Maul was later presumed dead for well over a decade.

But what is interesting about this is that whenever Sideous speaks of Maul's potential as a Sith Lord, it would always be considered a loss. 

The Darth Plagueis novel (while no longer canon but still echoes in canon) describes that when Maul dies, Sideous felt a sense of loss and had a feeling that he was alone. He attributed this feeling to killing his master, but when he came to Naboo later, he learned that it was because Maul had fallen, and Sideous could not bring himself to ask for more details about it. 

Even in canon, we get some details on Sideous feelings on Maul's fall.

Here he describes Maul as a loss and put his potential over Count Dooku, a former Jedi Master who himself was quite powerful if not more so then Maul.

This brings us to Rise of Skywalker:

Here we learn that the entire plan of the movie (Or so he claims) was for Rey to come to Exagol and take Sidious's place. Taking her rightful place as Emperor of the Galaxy.

"It is your birthrate to rule here. It is in your blood, our blood"

Because as its shown here with Rey, he has a desire to seek out apprentices whose very blood runs strong with the force. In Palpatine's sake, here its Rey who thinks surprises him because of her strong connection to him.

 And here we see, at last, the reason for Maul's grand potential. Not because Maul's was simply Force Sensitive but because he saw something grand in his blood. His own blood.

GIF by witwerlove

Because Maul is his son.

Maul is the son of Sidious and Mother Talazin. A by-product of their mingling of Sith and Nightsister sorcery.

That is why Maul was so important to him initially, what made Maul worthy enough to be his apprentice. He saw the power of his own bloodline and was so disappointed in his failure. Though he is by no means fatherly, he saw the power in Maul and used it for his own ends. While his father sees potential in strong bloodlines, he is not loyal to them.

GIF by keirametzofcarreras-archive-dea

He really was destined to be so much more...

[betelgo0ze]

Dathomirian culture is yet another topic the Star Wars franchise is yet to fully flesh out.

We know that it is a matriarchal society where males are cast out and used only for breeding but other than that no traditions or customs are explored. Yes, a few things are, but I’d like to add a few ideas of my own.

If you’ve ever read Wings of Fire than you’d know how only daughters or sisters of the queen can become the next ruler and kings have little to no power or influence(that is assuming the queen even gave him the title)

Queen Coral had 38(somewhere around that number, ik it was late thirties)sons and only a few daughters who she cherished. Long story short, she didn’t even know half her son’s names.

I think it would be cool if that would be the norm in Mauls culture. I don’t remember if it was ever said(and if it was I forgot lol)how members of the Nightsisters become the next leader but it isn’t too important for this headcanon. The leaders would want to procreate nonetheless and daughters would be the only children allowed in the tribe anyways.

But Talzin is diffrent.

she wouldn’t have let Maul live with the Nightbrothers if he had grown up with her. She would have kept him and his brothers. She cherished him which was something the Nightsisters saw as strange.

I think it would be funny if she had many daughters as well and loved them equally but loving her sons would be seen as strange since it isn’t something in there culture.

I think it’s just funny to imagine Maul with a bunch of older and younger sisters and in a ideal reality where after TPM he was able to make his way back to his mother and suddenly be seen as “the lost prince” w a bunch of sisters or whatever. It’s just endlessly hilarious to me.