Anon wrote: Hello MBTi Notes. I’ve long been reflecting on something that I haven’t seen addressed with the depth it deserves, and I was wondering if you might be able to offer your insight.
As an INTP, I’ve often noticed that we are frequently framed — both in fiction and in real life — as dull, naïve, or socially unimpressive. Even when portrayed positively, INTPs are usually cast as eccentric nerds, side characters, or comic relief. There’s rarely any emphasis on traits like charisma, leadership, or vision — qualities that other types seem to be readily granted, even in speculative representations.
This seems to mirror my own lived experience, and that of many INTPs I’ve spoken to. Despite having strong inner convictions and a deep need to understand and influence the world, when I try to speak or assert ideas, it often lands flat. I notice that my arguments, no matter how thought-out, don't create impact — or worse, they get brushed aside. There’s a sense of being seen as slow, abstract, or disconnected.
Meanwhile, other types, even when less precise, tend to command more immediate respect or engagement.
Why does this pattern exist? Is there something about the INTP function stack (Ti-Ne-Si-Fe) that makes our strengths socially invisible or easily misread? And how might we break free from these limiting frames without betraying the core of who we are?
Thank you for the thoughtful work you do. Your writing has helped me feel less alone somehow
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There is a subset of types who write to me more often than others, usually because they suffer from long running issues related to isolation. I lovingly refer to them as the "stuck in their head" squad, aka, the four Introverted Intuitive (IN) types. These types often find kindred spirits in each other.
IN types share a unique ability to create an interesting inner life for themselves. However, there are two sides to every personality trait. Having an interesting inner life potentially becomes a disadvantage or liability when it leaves one suffering from problems such as:
tunnel vision (INTJ)
separateness (INFJ)
stagnation (INFP)
detachment (INTP)
Although these sound like different problems on the surface, they all stem from the same deeper phenomenon of not being able to reconcile one's inner life with the outer world. Basically, the extraverted functions are underdeveloped. This means it is easy for INs to intentionally or unintentionally cut themselves off from the world, via tertiary loop, and perhaps even lose touch with reality in extreme cases.
I daresay every IN has experienced what it's like to think things are one way only to (shockingly) discover that nothing is what they thought. The INs who haven't had this experience yet are usually young (and privileged) and still blissfully living in their heads.
Although this inner-outer disconnect affects all four types, they are not all equally aware of it, care enough to change it, or feel compelled to seek help/advice about it. Generally speaking, INs in the early stages of tertiary loop are likely to be in denial, whereas those who have grown weary of tertiary loop (and suffering its negative consequences) are more likely to seek change and reach out for help.
However, this doesn't mean that help will work or that change will be smooth for them, mainly because they might still be unaware of what the underlying problem actually is. These cases are usually easy to identify because they struggle with questions along the lines of "how do I change without betraying myself?", indicating their ambivalence about exiting tertiary loop. Basically, they fear developing extraverted functions because they believe doing so would somehow "compromise" their inner world.
When INs become more aware of the inner-outer disconnect, a common reaction is existential loneliness, due to feeling misunderstood (by loved ones), underappreciated (by society), or unable to access social supports (that would help ease their suffering). One of the reasons I keep this blog is to help INs feel less alone by giving them access to minds with similar experiences.
Unfortunately, there exists a disincentive to connecting directly with others. Socializing can feel threatening because it opens up the door to painfully bursting the tertiary loop mental bubble for good. Such a drastic psychological jolt isn't good for mental health and well-being either. Reluctance to experience this pain can lead to living in a contradiction of wanting and not wanting change at the same time.
The more time spent in tertiary loop, the more difficult it is to exit. The fact is there are comforts to be had in tertiary loop because it is a protective defense mechanism. The heavier the reliance on the comforts, the harder it is to give them up. Bad habits are difficult to break once one has grown too accustomed to their "benefits". Because immature/unhealthy INs live in their own little world and are inattentive to the outer world, it is unfortunately all too easy for them to convince themselves that bad habits aren't bad where they live.
As such, getting out of tertiary loop often requires a strong commitment to change and improvement, a feasible plan of action, and determination to persist during difficult or stressful times. Sadly, the longer a person has been in tertiary loop, the less equipped they are to handle the pain of leaving it.
Usually, the reason they got trapped in the first place was because they did not (have opportunity to) learn healthy coping strategies and thus had to resort to tertiary loop. Therefore, the feasible plan of action must include learning new ways to cope with negative feelings and emotions (i.e. improve emotional intelligence).
A conceptual overview of the IN inner-outer disconnect problem and solution:
When Ni is too out of balance with Se, INTJs become too extreme. They will eventually suffer from tunnel vision if they use Fi to continually justify ignoring empirical evidence of failure (Te rejection). To exit Ni-Fi loop, they must give up extreme thinking, but that can leave them stuck in feelings of dullness or mediocrity. If they genuinely want a fulfilling life, they have to learn how to adopt reasonable standards and balance their goal-seeking to address every important aspect of life (Te+Se development).
When Ni is too out of balance with Se, INFJs become unrealistic. They will eventually suffer from separateness if they use Ti to continually rationalize away critical feedback (Fe rejection). To exit Ni-Ti loop, they must temper idealism, but that can leave them feeling empty or jaded. If they genuinely want to feel at peace with the world, they have to learn to adapt their vision to better fit the contexts of day-to-day existence (Fe+Se development).
When Fi is too out of balance with Te, INFPs become solipsistic. They will eventually suffer from stagnation if they use Si to remove all possible interference with their inner status quo (Ne rejection). To exit Fi-Si loop, they must admit that their feelings/values have led them astray, but this can leave them feeling lost or broken. If they genuinely want life to move forward, they have to learn to make use of mistakes and flaws as opportunities for becoming more skilled at life (Ne+Te development).
When Ti is too out of balance with Fe, INTPs become very limited in their perspective. They will eventually suffer from detachment if they use Si to continually dismiss certain ideas as being unworthy of consideration (Ne rejection). To exit Ti-Si loop, they must admit that their understanding of the world is myopic, but this can leave them feeling dejected or apathetic. If they genuinely want to bring their ideas to fruition, they have to learn to enjoy the process of continually testing and improving them, in order to pick up the most skilled methods of communicating them (Ne+Fe development).
I think tertiary Si and inferior Fe issues have been covered pretty well for INTPs, so you can refer to previous posts. Perhaps you haven't fully realized the extent that Si loop has constrained you. You see yourself one way, but others see you completely differently. An unrealistic self-image is a tell-tale sign of inner-outer disconnect.
Part of the disconnect comes from you because Si loop and Fe blindness make you unable to address all the complicating factors that influence successful expression of the self. Part of the disconnect comes from others because they might not be fully equipped to understand you without your help. Both of these problems are within your power to address.
If your knowledge of human psychology is basically limited to Ti+Si thinking, then your understanding of people is lacking, so you don't know how to appeal to them. You are basically doing what most people do, which is appeal to others based on what works for yourself, rather than what works for them. The fact of the matter is most people aren't INTPs, or even INs, so they don't think like you do.
One of the main reasons people learn about personality type is to learn how to bridge individual differences in perception and judgment. In order to communicate with types that are quite different from you, it is sometimes necessary for you to learn to speak some of their language. The more "languages" you learn, the more versatile you can be when socializing with people.
This is unfortunately just something all INs have to deal with because they are a statistical minority. Minorities often have to go the extra mile to make themselves seen and understood by the majority. It also doesn't help matters to be an introvert in a society that values extraversion more.
However, it's important to remember that you have extraverted functions and you can learn to use them effectively. It is mainly a matter of how willing you are to realize your potential. Everyone has their challenges in life, and meeting challenges bravely is the path to growth. An important aspect of type development is about unlocking hidden strengths, but you won't be able to do that if you continue to believe improvement equals "self-betrayal" (i.e. Ne rejection).
Perhaps you mostly notice INTPs who are similar to you in terms of type development stage, since we unconsciously seek reflections of ourselves in the social/media landscape. While it is true that the majority of people struggle with ego development issues (and thus get represented as such in fiction), there are certainly examples to be found of people who are further along in type development, usually older in age. Make a point to look out for them and you might discover valuable inspiration for your own development.
I have recognized that over the past few years, the political discourse in this country has been fueled by a totalizing need to defend whatever narrative that confirms each party’s beliefs. Whenever I provide a critique or raise a question regarding some of the arguments in both camps, I have seen people more often than not, react out of reactive defensiveness.
Interestingly enough, I would lead my arguments through Socratic dialectics, highlighting the incommensurability of values, the irreducible plurality and tensions, while insisting that we ought to recognize what might be missing in the beliefs that we hold. This dialectical method has often been shot down completely the moment I say anything that questions their own ideology.
When I say “I see the argument for a and b, yet a is missing a’ and b is missing b’ ”—what I DO NOT mean is that I am siding with A and maintaining that B is wrong. People who might have sided with B for so long or have been more sympathetic towards B, might believe the narrative that anyone challenging B is challenging B with the intention of demolishing B. So rather than hearing my critique of both A and B as impartial attempts to see what might be missing in both points of view (since all points of view are partial) they interpret my critique of B as a polemic against B, since their only experience with anyone critiquing B is those of “the other side” that have attempted to dismiss them. Contemporary political discourses operate within an imaginary battlefield, rather than a marketplace exchange of ideas.
I observe here that people do not often experience people within their own ideological camp proactively critiquing their own arguments; rather, people spend most of their time critiquing (or demonizing) the “other side.” I also noticed that whenever they do hear a critique, it has mainly been from those who do indeed, dismiss their idea at the expense of advancing their own. It appears that people do not have a working narrative framework of experience that allows them to recognize that perhaps someone can genuinely be critiquing both A and B, since they have been accustomed to only critiquing the opponents’ opinions while creating echo chambers of necessary agreements within their own camp.
When I say I see both A and B in terms of their potentialities but also their pitfalls, what I am saying is that while there are legitimate points worth considering in both A and B, there are also points to reconsider in both because **no system, ideology, theory, party, can have the truth in an absolute way**. This Socratic doubt, Jamesian fallibilism, epistemological pluralism has been met with utter hostility because people believe that while it is completely acceptable to point out the criticisms in “the other camp,” any criticisms regarding their own ideological camp is ipso facto, a personal affront.
Interestingly, even with the people that say they are trying to be as “objective and impartial” as much as possible, or that we need to see both points A and B, their true allegiance is revealed the moment you start to concretely point out what in A (or B) might be improved. The recommendations for improvement alone causes them to think you are assailing the integrity of the B, without understanding what the genuine concern might be behind such consideration. Rather than seeing B as what it is—an ideology, a system, a theory that indeed can be amended, I often see that in the pathos guiding people’s need to defend B, B has been so deeply ingrained in the core of their values, their experiences of reality, and the essence of who they are. Questioning B is akin to questioning their mode of existence, since ideology has become their identity.
When I am suggesting different theoretical points of view, my critique of B is a critique of an idea. My interlocutors however, regard this critique of B as a threat to their way of life, the way the world operates, their understanding of good, and their vision of the good life. It creates a cosmic imbalance in their ideological system since there is no marketplace of ideas in which we can freely exchange our opinions without the risk of “threats” whereby people genuinely express they feel “unsafe” when someone points out any divergent viewpoint.
One may say my endeavor to differentiate ideology from identity is in itself an insensitive project that does not consider how people are deeply impacted by their beliefs and the beliefs of others. My argument, however, is precisely that because people are so deeply shaken to their core over the exchange of ideas, perhaps they should, out of protection for their own self, be able to separate the realm of ideas from the realm of being. Being belongs in the realm of becoming, in which, there is nothing to prove or disprove when it comes to matters of essence. Idea, on the other hand, belongs to the realm of constantly being tested, proved, disproved, with the spirit of empiricism. It is far more elastic than the matters of being.
To intricately tie your being to something so plastic and in constant flux is to subject yourself to immense feelings of instability. This is precisely the reason why people feel incredibly defensive and reactive when anyone does point out any pitfalls in their ideology. Identity cannot be disproved; but ideology can. Ideology is not reality. It has no absolute form, no concrete existence. Ideology is meant to be fluid instead of being static. To safeguard one’s ideology (due to the fact one’s identity is too tied to ideology) is to cut ideology from the life source; its ability to respond to the changing, multifaceted, dynamic variables of life.
Was is true that if an infj stuck in Ni-Ti loop, they often mistaken as an intj? Read this sometime ago and I'd like to hear your take on this
Oh yes. If you come across as introspective and analytical, you might be slapped INTx label. If you seem quite chaotic and indecisive, people will add P at the end, and if you’re a bit obsessive, judgemental and goal-oriented, you’ll be labelled as an INTJ.
When it comes to self-typing, INFJs might mistype as INTxs if they have been stuck in Ti-loop for lengthy amount of time. This manifests as thinking in circles and producing lengthy monologues that don’t come to any firm conclusions. And yet the INFJ will trust her/his own judgement only.
A looping INFJ uses Ti defensively to rationalise withdrawn and socially irresponsible behaviour. However, they can barely articulate those reasons despite feeling like they have them. This is because once INFJ tries to articulate those reasons, they realise that they do not hold as much weight as they feel they should. Why? Because there is something else going on, “reasons” being merely a defensive mechanism.
This is not something INTJ does, for example. Looping INTJs don’t concoct complex rationales for their inaction or irresponsibility. Instead, they simply accuse someone of immorality they do not want to deal with. It will not confuse you like INFJ’s monologue might, but it will annoy you.
INFJ , recovering Ti loop. Interested in your perspective, how do I discard philosophies that may be true but prevent connection? For example, I know morality is subjective, that what is considered moral today is a socially agreed upon fiction that maintains power structures, which change with every society, and from this there is no rational reason to not "mistreat" people if you can do it without incurring any social blowback. I read reactionary INTJ philosophers and appreciate their view of things, but if I were to fully subscribe to these theories, I would be alienated from almost everyone. I think my alienation is largely intellectual not emotional, but I'm unsure if I should give up trying to understand reality in its harshness to promote my connection with others via illusion generating, or lying about what I think and who I am. Thanks for your time.
When INFJs are unable to be authentic, it is usually related to Fe development problems revolving around things like self-worth and shame. Authenticity is required for meaningful connection with others. You shouldn't have to rely on intellect, philosophies, or the like to resolve alienation. If you feel like you have to hide your true self, there's a distinct reason for it, and you should be tackling the direct source of the problem, rather than get yourself lost in theories or abstractions.
However, since Fe development doesn't seem to be the angle you're going for, I'll leave it for now. There are plenty of previous posts about Fe that you can consult as you're ready.
If you want my honest opinion, I'd say one major problem is you haven't done enough to develop your critical thinking skills. I make this judgment from the perspective of a teacher, based on: 1) my observations of philosophy majors and how they usually progress in their thinking skills from freshman to graduate level study, and 2) my knowledge about psychological ego development and how it affects the progression of thinking skills over the lifespan.
Based on what little I've seen of your thought process, I'd peg your thinking skills roughly at somewhere around high school to college freshman level. Unfortunately, this means that, though you possess enough reading comprehension skill to pick up a philosophy book and read it cover to cover, you aren't yet able to analyze philosophies with the level of detail, nuance, and complexity that is required for coming to reliably valid conclusions regarding truth.
Students often complain that teachers harp about "critical thinking skills" but aren't clear about what they are and how to develop them. As someone who used to teach it, I acknowledge it's a difficult subject. I'll use what you said as an example to illustrate where the critical thinking skills would come in:
"I know morality is subjective, that what is considered moral today is a socially agreed upon fiction that maintains power structures, which change with every society, and from this there is no rational reason to not "mistreat" people if you can do it without incurring any social blowback"...
Here, you claim to "know" something is true but I would seriously question whether you actually "know" and whether you really understand what it means to "know" something or judge something as "true". With better critical thinking skills, you would understand problems of epistemology and wouldn't be so quick to claim you know things, especially when it comes to notoriously complex subject matter such as ethics.
With better critical thinking skills, you'd be able to separate fact claims from value claims, rather than conflating the two and fooling yourself into thinking the knowledge you possess is more solid than it really is.
With better critical thinking skills, you'd be able to detect that the moral claim being made is a gross oversimplification, underhandedly informed by a cynical worldview that is not free from bias, and is, therefore, not reaching the level of a "truth" to be believed in.
With better critical thinking skills, you'd be able to spot logical fallacies and problematic distinctions, e.g., the false dichotomy between "reality" and "fiction"/"illusion" being created mainly for rhetorical or polemical purposes.
The philosophy department attracts a decent number of INFJs, so I've seen how they are easily influenced by whomever they happen to be reading at the moment. They may spend a couple years flip-flopping all over the place because 1) they don't have confidence in their own convictions and 2) they aren't able to analyze ideas at the level of being able to formulate coherent rebuttals to what they're reading.
The best remedy is to improve one's critical thinking skills (I've already recommended some books on the resources page). I'm not gonna lie; improvement is, of course, easier said than done. It's very much like learning a new language. Intellectual skills require a lot of time, motivation, effort, and practice to build up. In the West, we devised the liberal arts curriculum in universities to serve this purpose (and it is now under assault from several directions).
As it pertains to INFJ, the path to intellectual improvement involves:
nurturing a willingness to confront one's ignorance as well as the patience to get ever deeper insight into one's gaps in knowledge (Ni)
nurturing an openness to consider a wide variety of perspectives in order to ensure that no significant information gets left out and that one's viewpoint isn't unduly biased (Fe)
building up the analytical skills required for systematizing all the gathered information into a logically coherent framework (Ti) that accurately reflects the FULL reality of the situation (Se)
If you're honest with yourself, you'll know where you're falling short. It takes some self-awareness to realize that you may be getting drawn into certain philosophies merely because they confirm your biases, boost your ego, validate your emotions, relitigate your traumas, cover up your insecurities, or play into underlying tertiary loop problems, etc. Dig deeper into exactly why you find certain ideas compelling and you may find them less compelling once the truth of yourself comes out.
And why do you need any philosophy to subscribe to in the first place??
Anon wrote: I'll start by saying right off the bat that I don't want this to become a venting ask, I'll try to keep things as concise but honest as I can. I wanted to ask for your advice as to how to proceed in my current situation. My girlfriend broke up with me, it happened two days ago so I'm still feeling it pretty intensly. It's especially painful for me, because I thought we had nothing but good times with each other for the past three months.
It feels like all of my plans for the future I thought we would spend together just collapsed around me. [extreme!] I cried a lot already, I tried not to repress anything, but at the moment I'm just alternating between anger and numbness. The experience is making me doubt all of my previous assumptions and values about myself and my approach to relationships. [extreme!] I'm seeing how many of my interests and activites in life were underhandedly motivated by my need for connection.
It's not original, we all do things as a means of being with others, but now it hit me how exhausted I was making myself - constantly paying attention to how everybody around me was feeling, or how to position myself strategically in life to increase opportunities for connection. I realize I've been treating relationships like gardening, where it becomes a chore where I have to give all the plants in my life enough water so they don't die but then they die anyway, if that makes sense.
I realize that it's a pretty self-evident truth that you can't make someone stay with you just by giving them enough care and love, everyone makes their own decisions. But I guess this is the first time I truly felt it hit me instead of simply thinking I know it, and I'm not handling the emotional fallout well. There's a lot of blame, hopelessness and anger. I feel "spent". I can't help thinking that all the love and care I've given to this person has been wasted. [harsh!]
Now I feel like I have no more left to give of myself. Like my Fe well has run dry and I don't know how to refill it because I have no idea who I am without other people. Trying to boil it all down to something coherent: my relationship battery feels completely dead and I'm not sure how to go about recharging it, nor if I should right now. From what I read on your blog, re-engaging Ni would be the way to go.
But even that feels difficult when most of my values are centered around relationship ideals which I can't think about in positive terms at the moment. [time to expand your horizons then?] I wonder wether I should limit my social interactions to a bare minimum, but I feel like I'm very close to succumbing to a Se-grip and complete cinicism. I'm already considering jumping straight into a rebound relationship, which I'm aware would not be a good idea. [you are correct]
I don't want to lose my sensitivity and openness to people, which I still consider to be good and valuable aspects of myself, even if they seem pointless at this current moment. [good!] How can I heal in a way that is constructive, not destructive, in a situation where all of my values feel threatened? Thank you. - INFJ (I'm the same anon from this ask, should you need additional context: post/190826355562)
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When something really negative happens to you, be it a breakup or a horrible accident, you're going to feel very strongly about it. There's no avoiding the emotional aftermath of having the rug pulled out from under you. Cry as you need to, without shame. The first step is always to give yourself adequate time and space for the most intense feelings and emotions to run their course.
However, what I'm seeing in your description is you taking your feelings (of hurt and grief) and mentally running away into all kinds of pointless thoughts and judgments. Pointless thinking/rumination isn't harmless when it leads you to feel worse and worse about yourself. It means feelings and emotions don't run their course but rather escalate in a vicious cycle.
If you want feelings and emotions to run their course efficiently, you must learn to not resist or indulge them. Resisting often takes the form of denial or anger. Indulging often takes the form of self-dramatization or self-pity. Lots of self-pity in your description.
Once feelings and emotions have had enough opportunity to peter out on their own, your mind is calmer and clearer, and only then should you begin the "analysis" or self-reflection period. Trying to analyze a situation when your mind is clouded by negativity is a recipe for disaster via Ti loop. Refrain from that.
The first issue that needs looking at: How and why did this relationship end? None of what you've said sounds very helpful or truthful with regard to root causes. It sounds like you were taken aback, which raises the question of why you didn't detect a serious problem earlier. It's rare that a relationship breaks up with no warning signs whatsoever, as that would involve master-level deception on someone's part.
Once you're able to accurately pinpoint the causes of relationship breakup, then you can ask yourself whether this has been a pattern. You do realize that relationships can break up for all manner of reasons, some of which have nothing to do with you personally? For example, it could be drifting apart, bad timing, irreconcilable differences, etc. Sometimes, there's nothing and no one to blame other than "fate".
If you're too quick to point fingers and assign blame, chances are, you're not going to get to the bottom of what happened, which means not learning what needs to be learned. Blame is counterproductive because it is always based on a superficial reading of the situation. Take more time to arrive at the truth rather than jump to conclusions or beat yourself up.
If you've discovered that you exhibit a particular habit or quality that is genuinely problematic to relationships, then implement a plan to change and improve. If you've discovered that the breakup wasn't anyone's fault but something that just had to happen, allow yourself to move on and find love again as you're ready.
A breakup doesn't have to get messy and complicated. But that all depends on how well you can handle your feelings and emotions, on whether you let them carry you off in unproductive directions. In other words, feeling is feeling and thinking is thinking, so don't let the two get entangled and confuse you. Let the feelings have their day first.
I suggest you review the articles on emotional well-being for healthy coping strategies.
Anon wrote: Isfj audhd. All the guides say dom Si has strong attention to detail but I can't seem to make my brain capture details tho I try. I easily rmb details that pertain to ppl /rmb without trying, but technical, 'dead' details not about ppl just slip from my grasp like water. I'm quitting my current job coz it requires meticulousness and tho I really try, taking notes, triple check, wait a bit before checking work with fresh eyes, I inevitably will miss out sth.
In my prev job this was not a problem as my boss was not particular but my current boss, istj, has a steel trap mind. Margin for error is v low & she gets very frustrated and v v critical. Sometimes I also just interpret things completely differently than her and do it another way which I don't realize until she notices and starts to question me (ASD). She has grown more frustrated w me over time and so more critical and harsh.
I understand her pov bc I probably come off sloppy and like I didn't think things through despite repeated reminders; she is extremely extremely meticulous and particular about things done a certain way. It is so so so stressful. I can see that I'm not fitting in, not able to produce work to the standards required, but I feel like I have no control nor does communication help as she only wants to see results/ output which is understandable.
Holding on till I leave but how to put this into perspective? I'm leaving aft only 3 mths. Ppl are understandably shocked, try to counsel me. Bc I feel like I've failed, their well meaning qns/advice adds to self doubt. I usually try to wait before drastic decisions (like quitting) but I really couldn't see how this situation will improve and my mental health has gotten worse and worse. So I almost impulsively quit (thought about it over 3 days)
I think it's the right decision bc even tho I have an out, my mental health is still v bad. So I keep trying to 'fix' this in my head. What could I have done differently? Is it me? I'm ashamed that her harshness triggers my anxiety & panic issues, I feel v sensitive. Do I just need to somehow toughen up? Or is it just as simple as, a bad fit? And I'm anxious how I'm sposed to handle this in future if it repeats. I feel like a failure basically. Advice?
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You claim to be ISFJ and, since you are of working age, presumably an adult. Before I respond to your question, describe to me what have you done so far to develop the functions of your stack?
As far as I can tell, you don't have a good grasp of Si, which leads me to believe that you haven't done much in terms of development. Why is that? My blog is meant for people who are serious about type development. This is not a place to randomly ask for advice whenever you feel bad about yourself. Is it worthwhile for me to answer your question if you're not going to work on your functions?
First of all, your conception of Si is flawed, which is concerning considering it's the dominant function. You're talking about processing "technical" information, which wouldn't be Si but Ti. Since Ti is a lower function, it would be understandable to struggle with it. However, assuming that type development has gone accordingly, you should already have a certain level of proficiency with the tertiary function in adulthood.
If you don't understand how to use Ti at all, that is a problem, because it means something has gone awry with your type development process. Unfortunately, I can't speak on it because you haven't provided any information as to why this might be the case, since your focus is on your feelings rather than development.
Secondly, the way you react to criticism in such a self-dramatizing way is a symptom of unhealthy Fe. Do you understand the difference between being a failure and failing?
To "be a failure" is to attach the concept of failing to your personal identity. To approach failure as identity is to believe it is a reflection of who you fundamentally are, specifically, it is treated as proof of your moral unworthiness, which then compels you to punish yourself with pointless guilt, shame, and self-loathing. The result? Damage to self-esteem and getting stuck in self-pity.
To "fail" is a factual event. To approach failing as a purely factual event is to impartially analyze and understand the causal factors that led to the event. Only then would you understand how and why it happened. From there, it is possible to generate good ideas about preventing it from happening again. The result? Significant increase in knowledge, skill, and competency.
Treating failure as identity is an indication of unhealthy Fe. Being unable to treat failure as a factual event and systematically learn from it is an indication of underdeveloped Ti. Sitting around ruminating on failure in circles, with no tangible benefit and only feeling worse about yourself, is likely to be Ti loop.
Finally, it seems you haven't understood that type development problems always begin at the top of the stack. Targeting Fe or Ti isn't going to work as long as dominant Si remains immature, so I must revisit the question from above: What have you done to develop Si?
For example, why are you surprised that you failed? If you were a realistic person, as Si doms ought to be, you would understand that it's perfectly logical to fail when you are bad at something.
Imagine that I had never played football before or never exercised a day in my life and you threw me into a game with professional football players, would you not expect me to trip all over myself and fall flat on my face? Furthermore, would it make sense to call me a failure, to take failing as my identity based on this? It would be terribly unfair to hold me to the same standards as a professional player, would it not?
For some reason, your expectations of yourself are unrealistic. Why is that? Where is your Si in being able to apprehend and accept the plain facts of the situation? Where is your Si in understanding that it is not realistically possible for a person to be naturally talented at everything? Every person has their strengths and weaknesses, do they not?
Generally speaking, when you happen upon a weakness, through discovering you're not good at something, you have many options:
accept it and work with it -> healthy Si
leave it as an unresolved thorn in your side -> unhealthy Si
embrace and accommodate it -> healthy Fe
tell yourself you're worthless -> unhealthy Fe
systematic learning and improvement -> healthy Ti
criticize yourself on an endless loop -> unhealthy Ti
experiment with practical solutions -> healthy Ne
blow the situation out of proportion -> unhealthy Ne
I don't tell people what to choose. I only tell them they have a choice.
Anon wrote: Hello mbti-notes. Hope you are doing well and thank you for all your work as always. I am the INFJ from post 642303487006359552. Sorry for asking yet again; I just believe I’m wasting a lot of time trying to figure this out by myself and would appreciate if you have any ideas or pointers.
In the post I mentioned above you pinpointed how I struggled with unhealthy Ni, unreasonable expectations, and lack of patience / emotional intelligence. Your analysis was spot-on, and I come to relate to it increasingly as I go through life, but my progress on these issues has been slow when looking from bird-eye’s view. I think my understanding of them is rather detached / intellectualized and hindered by me being unable to rely on external advice or guidance effectively.
I probably “intellectualize” a lot generally as I rely a lot on external advice, self-help, researching, psychology, etc. to figure out my problems. I don’t know if this is inherently a bad thing—if I hadn’t found many of psychology’s ideas I definitely would hardly be in a good place. However, every time I do this, I feel guilty or afraid that I’m navel gazing, and uncertain whether I actually am. If I don’t do this, however, I feel intractably stuck. Most of the progress I’ve made relied on my own ‘pure’ judgment in some form, but when I continue to tap into it I start becoming delusional or something, and even more stuck. I will detail my problem now and how this happens when I try to work on it.
I have been trying to be more patient, more resilient, and gain awareness of the thought processes that lead to disappointment. On the way, I realized that one of my major problems was immense frustration whenever something ‘went wrong’. I think this is very related to Ti loop and Se grip. If something doesn’t ‘make sense’ to me or if I don’t know what it means for me—such as someone’s mean comments, negative intentions; what makes certain tasks or activities purposeful; whether I’m choosing a good direction in life—I don’t feel my life (presently) is ‘meaningful’ anymore, that my ‘good’ actions are meaningless things that I am ‘forced’ to do to be well-adjusted. I feel an urge to escape from the situation and move into nihilism, perhaps narrowing my point of attention to a very small point so that I don’t have to think about it all. I want to forget about all of the mess. My unrealistic expectations perhaps pile up when I do this.
For example it so happens that I have poor social skills that often leads people to reject me. Of course, it is unreasonable to expect anyone to like me. But when I tell myself ‘it’s okay if people don’t like me’, my frustrations become extreme; I become provoked, implacable. “Why should it be the case that even if people reject me, they think I’m a bad person just for having emotional issues, make gross assumptions about my behavior, etc. etc.” I often resort to thinking those people are ‘shallow’. And it doesn’t help that in reality, I’m getting increasing amounts of evidence that even decent people can be very shallow. I guess it’s not my business and my interpretation is what matters—my judgmentalness here shows my own struggles. And if I’m being honest I’m rather OK with the rejection per se. What bothers me immensely is that the rejection was based on things that indicated that they were first of all looking out for their own comfort rather than mine, that they blindsided my unrealistic expectations of them. I feel exposed for being so out of touch.
But I’ve attempted to be more in touch with reality often, more realistic, but it doesn’t work. All I can think of telling myself is, ‘you should know that people are shallow’, which doesn’t seem realistic at all; it’s just a blanket statement. Or I tell myself, I should go out for your own enjoyment, not necessarily for genuine connection with others. Or even better that I should be more adaptable, chill, focused on mutual enjoyment. I’ve often gone out with these intentions and ended up being totally lost on what to do, acting even more awkward probably creeping people out. This ties back to that things ‘stop making sense’. Like I don’t understand what’s happening around me; I’m here for enjoyment or I’m trying to be adaptable, what does that mean? How does it tie to what matters to me? Sometimes I figure out in the moment why something matters to me practically and act pretty well, but it requires a lot of mental work and tying together all the complex factors quickly, and it happens rarely (though more frequently as I’ve made some sort of progress). It requires thinking of everything at once. And I’m slow when it comes to things like this. It doesn’t help that I feel very angry when I realize that my ‘slowness’ is the thing that’s leading people to misunderstand and judge me. It feels unfair… and then same thing with this, I try to figure out my unrealistic expectation that the world should be fair and reasonable and defuse it, but now it’s double complicated with the original thing.
Similarly I often struggle with figuring out how to find more meaning and purpose in life. I have many meaningful goals, like helping out my family, making progress in my career, learning good things, solving my emotional problems, building a social support system, becoming a better person. I don’t actively feel hopeless as long as I don’t touch on my blindspots too much. But when I try to grow more it comes crumbling down. Like I’ll become disappointed that I think so much about external rewards when it comes to my career. It is pretty clear that I want to be validated for the work I do and it often motivates me, I wonder if a bit too much. But instead of addressing this directly, my mind commonly becomes a mess noticing; I go on internal monologues about how it’s so unfair that I’ve to lose social validation and be judged if I did more meaningful work, or that the industry I work in suffers so many issues, on and on and on until I’ve formed a full internal narrative about how the world sucks.
Anyway, I suspect a window into this issue comes when I try to work on it. I’ll try to make mental models of when my emotions get triggered, what are the ‘underlying issues’ (emotional intelligence, denial, etc.), but if I don’t actively resist by feeling sleepy and detached, I become very frustrated, intellectualize, start reading psychology or researching abstract things like ‘how to solve emotional problems’ lol. I suspect I actually do it right a lot of the time, except with immense self-doubt that interferes with learning. I’ll tell myself, why am I learning about emotions, I should be just doing what I need to do to grow. Also, very often I don’t know where to look or how to interpret what I read, making me more confused. And when I try to ‘handle it myself’, telling myself I myself know what’s best for me, I resort to just ‘powering through’ my frustration, which doesn’t work very well. Either way, my frustrations and underlying hopelessness pile up and I give into some sort of weird entertainment or falling asleep.
I think if I were able to think more clearly and prevent my messy mind I’d be far more efficient. Yet this thought itself triggers me! I become afraid, throughout history, people didn’t really have access to psychology and stuff, or to modern scientific / critical thinking courses, do I not have the resources to handle myself? Am I avoiding or evading my problems? Also, isn’t ‘intellectual development’ going to make my detachment worse? Isn’t Ti loop a problem? I have a lot of evidence now that I should just bite the bullet and work on the critical thinking related to properly sorting out my mind. To be fair I do often start doing this; I’d crack open a book, Google things, or think about my issues more systematically. The anxiety is usually quite extreme though and I don’t learn for long. Sometimes, when I get frustrated or upset I’ll do things that are obviously useless, like Google very very specific questions as if I'm talking to some human expert, lol.
Anyway, you can see how messy and divided my thoughts are here. I guess I would just appreciate some help clearing my confusion and making sense of what is happening to me. I suspect the main issue to prioritize is my pattern / habit of not being able to work through problems patiently. But I’ve thought so for a while and it’s not helped too much, so there's clearly something I'm missing. I’m afraid I'm wasting time digging on this when I could be living a more meaningful and fulfilling life. Sorry this got long, and thank you so much! I am always stunned by your knowledge and insight.
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In a nutshell: Almost all the thought patterns you've described are characteristic of Ni-Ti loop, with a few examples of Se grip sprinkled in. When tertiary loop exhibits such a prominent role in your psychology, it is a clear indication that there is a serious problem happening with dominant and auxiliary function development.
You've learned enough type theory to accurately identify some unhealthy thought patterns and try to apply a "fix", but you still don't have enough self-awareness to catch the majority of them, so it's easy for you to get swept away by them.
It's obvious you're trying your best to work though your issues, but your best isn't good enough sometimes. If it pains you to hear that, it means you are not in touch with reality. It is a reality for everyone that life cannot only be made up of successes.
The best way to build a strong and healthy sense of self is to realize your potential. The first key point you're missing is that potential isn't only realized through building yourself up for success; a significant portion of human potential lies dormant, waiting to be mined, in every single one of your mistakes and failures. If things don't work out for you, keep trying until you finally become smart/skilled enough to get it right. (This is the Ni component of the problem.)
You are essentially denying yourself very valuable opportunities to realize your potential because of trying to escape or deny the things you don't like about reality. To have "unrealistic expectations" means you always expect things to go perfectly for you. You basically walk around as though you are entitled to perfection from everyone and everything, as though you are owed everything your heart desires. This kind of unreasonably impatient attitude is toddler mentality. Is it not the epitome of egocentric thinking? Unfortunately, this leads you to suffer constantly from self-inflicted disappointments and frustrations.
If living life well were as simple and straightforward as your "unrealistic expectations" make you believe, then we would all be doing it, wouldn't we? You call others "shallow" when your own thinking barely skims the surface of how complicated human life really is. This kind of hypocrisy is characteristic of Ti loop, of a mind that is unable to detect its own errors.
One obvious sign of Ti misuse is the tendency to criticize others as a means to deflect disapproval of oneself. No, it is NOT a "fact" that the majority of people are shallow; this is a value judgment that you came to just because a few people didn't live up to your subjective expectations of them. One of the first lessons they teach you in critical thinking courses is how to tell the difference between facts and values.
Ti loop is insidious because it makes you overconfident that everything you believe is "fact" and thus unassailable. Invincibility feels nice, right? Unfortunately, it is actually just imperviousness to facts. As I explained in a previous post, tertiary loop is tempting and addicting because it allows you to reside in a mental space where you are never wrong. But that constitutes a denial of reality, which is precisely what makes one delusional in the long run.
Tertiary loop is an ego defense mechanism. People use defense mechanisms to avoid facing up to inconvenient, unpleasant, or uncomfortable truths. Instead of using Ti as it is meant to be used - to examine and vet one's own judgment transparently - looping INFJs use Ti to invent "truths" that are more convenient and comfortable to believe in.
Ti misuse in FJs often manifests as shifting around blame by telling cause-and-effect "stories" that patly explain the motivations behind undesirable behavior. Your story of choice uses "shallowness" as the main theme... which means you are the only special "deep" one in the world, yes? Another aspect of "unrealistic expectations" is walking around believing that everyone should be like you or else they are inferior.
Unfortunately, these stories ultimately bring you nothing but a false sense of power, a momentary ego boost. You really showed those people who rejected you by calling them "shallow", right? No, nothing was achieved and no problem was resolved. If anything, it made you less willing to open up and socialize, which only serves to hamper future Fe development. If one doesn't take tertiary loop seriously, one starts to spiral deeper into it, getting further and further away from healthy development.
The first step for ending tertiary loop is to admit that your way of thinking is wrong. If you can't do that, if you're too addicted to the mere feeling of being right, then you'll continue the slow descent into self-loathing. I can't tell you how many INFJs have said to me that therapy didn't work for them because they couldn't handle the therapist implying that their thinking was flawed. Some of them even knew they were wrong but still weren't willing to give up the comfort of faulty beliefs.
For someone who struggles so much internally, it's surprising that so little of what you wrote was devoted to feelings and emotions. It's actually not surprising, though, because defense mechanisms are used for the precise purpose of covering them up.
Underneath the thick web of Ti stories and rationalizations is a boiling cauldron full of negative feelings and emotions, right? Though you keep trying to intellectualize them away, they are still there. And the more you try to intellectualize them away, the hotter they boil. What's in the cauldron? Anxiety, loneliness, alienation, guilt, shame, sadness, anger, disgust, resentment, rage, hatred... what else?
What happens with Se grip is that those buried emotions get the better of you, so you lose control of yourself, and your mind behaves as though it doesn't belong to you. To improve your emotional intelligence requires you to finally take ownership of your emotions.
The second key point you're missing is that as long as you're unwilling to deal directly with your feelings and emotions, you'll need defense mechanisms, basically forced to do all manner of mental gymnastics to escape feeling bad. This is the origin of Ni-Ti loop. You're trying to get away from the reality of yourself and how you feel like a shameful social failure, so you have to invent stories and excuses to soothe yourself. And in the moments you are aware of the fakery, you feel even worse about yourself for being a fraud. (This is the Fe component of the problem.)
What's so wrong with allowing yourself to feel, especially when not allowing it leaves you worse off? Are you not human? It fucking hurts to get rejected, so cry about it. It fucking hurts to feel lonely, so cry about it. It fucking hurts to fall down, so cry about it. And once you're done crying, get on with life. Is that not preferable to getting totally lost in a mental maze of harmful and hateful stories?
Do you really want to be a more realistic person, since chronic loop indicates otherwise? Start by facing up to the reality of yourself and learn to accept what you see. Yes, people suck sometimes and the world sucks sometimes, but so do you, because you're a part of the world - stop pretending otherwise. You may not have the power to make the world suck less, but you absolutely have the power to make yourself suck less.
You can always change your part of the world through being a better member of it, through making better choices - this is the spirit of Fe. "Choosing" tertiary loop means choosing to believe that change isn't possible, that change isn't good, or that change is unnecessary. And where does that leave you, as Ni dominant who needs change to make meaningful progress in life?
All those negative thoughts, feelings, flaws, imperfections, and shortcomings are there to help you reach your full potential, because they direct your attention squarely to what's truly missing in your life. It is your job to listen carefully, focus all your attention on what matters most that is within your power to change, and fill your life with the right things... as opposed to dodging and evading, getting distracted by trivial things, and wasting time seeking out empty comforts. The sooner it dawns on you that the worst aspects of you are there to help you transform, the sooner you'll exit Ti loop. And the sooner you can finally chill out and socialize better.
Anon wrote: INFJ, late 20s. I’m not the OP of this post, but I relate to it: post/772954996196229120. Afaik I don’t have ADHD, but I know I have social anxiety. I have a similar issue about feeling like my mind is empty a lot. There may be some superficial ideas floating around, but they are not very well-developed or well-sorted, so they feel elusive.
When I read, I struggle with retaining and recalling information in a structured way, so I often am not able to contribute much. On top of that, in social settings, it often takes me a long time to process what people are discussing in the moment, so I almost always fail to generate a response in time. Of course, having social anxiety does not help, because a lot of mental energy is spent on warding off negative thoughts and emotions over these issues.
For example, I’m always thinking about how I need to come up with a response or people will find me weird for being silent. Even if I recall something that is loosely connected, I often hesitate to say it, because it’s as if all my memories of it are faint – like I haven’t learned about it in-depth and I won’t be able to develop it on the spot.
Putting that pressure on myself makes it harder to participate and I end up judging myself harshly for it (as someone incapable of deep thought and adaptability at once). I also tend to believe that others will do the same and find me unworthy to be around, which makes matters worse. I almost feel like the ideal social setting for me would be just to ask people questions and listen to them talk. But pushing the burden of keeping the conversation going on the other person is not realistic.
1-on-1 interactions make me anxious because I worry I’ll run out of things to say, but that’s where a lot of opportunities to get closer lie, so I’m scared I’ll never be able to make friends with anyone.I am going to therapy for social anxiety. I’ve been learning about my harmful thought patterns and trying to disarm them. My shame still often gets the best of me, unfortunately, and it’s very hard to deal with it when I’m in the middle of an interaction.
On the side, I’m trying to learn about things that interest me, but it’s a slow process (and the memory thing is an issue). I tend to feel sad and discouraged about these shortcomings, then try to pick myself up again, in a constant loop. I would love to hear your thoughts on what is going on cognitive function-wise and how to improve. :(
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The Type Dev guide already includes information about function development. Social anxiety and shame are common INFJ topics because of how they relate to auxiliary Fe development. There is already a lot of information available to you, so have you read through it and implemented the advice? Generally speaking, people find the suggestions useful. However, if the suggestions don't work well for you, then you have to consider the possibility that you simply aren't ready.
The fact of the matter is that type development goes much more smoothly when you have the right frame of mind. Suffering from a mental disorder often means one is not in the right frame of mind. I generally do not recommend attempting function development when struggling with a mental health problem. I have witnessed many cases of people not heeding my words and then making their mental health problems worse. I can't control whether people follow my instructions, so consider yourself warned.
Function development shouldn't be incredibly difficult, but people with poor mental health often find it to be. Here is a simple illustration of why:
- Developing Ni requires you to nurture intellectual curiosity in order to have a deeper understanding of the world and discover the most meaningful paths for yourself. Is this not difficult to do when you look out into the world and mostly perceive "threats" that seize you up and completely occupy your mind? Anxiety steals away precious mental energy and makes you too inflexible to easily change your perspective on things.
- Developing Fe requires you to nurture emotional bonds in order to feel connected to something larger than yourself. Is this not difficult to do when you can't open yourself up fully to embrace connection? Anxiety prevents you from showing people who you really are and finding your place in society.
- Developing Ti requires you to put your personal stuff aside to make factual, logical, and impartial judgments and decisions. Is this not difficult to do when you're unable to regulate your feelings and emotions and you're not even aware of how they bias/mislead/hijack your reasoning process? Anxiety interferes with making sound judgments during social interaction.
- Developing Se requires you to interact with the world in an open, trusting, easygoing, and proactive way. Is this not difficult to do when your mind cannot be present because it has run far away with constant worrying about "consequences"? Anxiety makes it virtually impossible for you to go with the flow and effortlessly brush off negativity.
I say all this not to discourage people from type development but to make them aware of how important it is to do things in the right order. Mental health problems should take priority.
Social anxiety disorder needs professional treatment. While a lot of people experience anxiety in social situations, they are generally able to rise above it. Social anxiety becomes a "disorder" when it is serious enough to interfere with daily activities and prevents you from living life as fully as you hope to. It sounds like your case meets this degree of severity, so it's good you're undergoing therapy for it.
A more deep-seated psychological issue is toxic shame. In many cases, it is a major contributing factor to social anxiety. If it isn't already, shame should probably be your first/main focus, if you want the healing process to go more efficiently. Shame distorts your perception of everything, making it very difficult for you to form a healthy relationship with yourself, others, and the world at large. Without a basic level of healthy self-esteem, you are likely to struggle with reaching most goals because your ego is too fragile to handle the setbacks, missteps, and failures that are an inevitable part of the growth process.
It seems you haven't understood that the answer to shame is NOT to throw yourself into an endless cycle of striving for perfection and failing (which is actually a symptom of Ni-Ti loop). The answer to shame is self-acceptance, which doesn't require any effortful "striving" or "improvement". It only requires you to simply love yourself and believe that you are just as deserving of love as anyone else. How can you ask others to accept you when you can't even do it? Toxic shame means your thinking is completely backwards in that you need others to accept you before you can accept yourself. Until you correct this faulty thinking, you'll keep feeling cornered, always at the mercy of other people's approval or disapproval.
