#winnower

[vintagehomecollection]

... a Japanese clothes wringer, two kimono irons, and a "shoulder hitter" or stress reliever with the onomatopoetic name of kata-tataki. The open-ended basket is a winnower, a common Japanese design used to separate the chaff from rice or buckwheat.

At Home With Japanese Design: Accents, Structure and Spirit, 1990

[thefirstknife]

I haven't been able to play the latest update yet so I gotta ask. With all this talk of the winnower, have we found out that its a separate entity to The Witness, or are we just finding out more about how the Witness operated?

It's confirmed now that it is a separate entity! It is identified as a speaker on the seasonal artifact. Like it straight up says "The Winnower" after a quote.

I've always believed them to be separate, my only issue was that we had no solid proof that the Winnower is even a real thing, since the only indications of it were various religious texts and other people's beliefs and unreliable narrators. Even the stuff in Books of Sorrow where something spoke to Oryx, it was really difficult to find genuine proof of what it is. Could've been the Witness adopting a persona to trick Oryx, could've been just various Books of Sorrow lies or unreliable information, could've been Savathun scribbling lies, or something completely different. Books of Sorrow are such an old and biased text in general, with many different narrators.

Unveiling was another contentious text, mostly because of the same things. It was left for us in the Pyramid after we spoke to a clone of ourselves made by the Witness and it was clearly a propaganda text to make us join the Witness, but also it did imply that the text was written by an entity called the "Winnower." However, that could, once again, haven been the Witness. I might still be more in the camp that Unveiling was the Witness' attempt to emulate the higher power it believed in (the Winnower) and using that to sway us to its side, but we don't really know now. The Witness further said (in TFS, largely in the raid) that it believed in the Winnower and considered itself to be its "first knife," but then when we got Nacre, the Winnower (more or less confirmed now) said that it didn't really care for the Witness. Or, at the very least, that the Winnower is not exactly a thing that deliberately sends out others to do its bidding; it kinda relies on people simply choosing to do so by themselves:

This great, beloved cosmos. Always decaying, always finding that same old lovely pattern, despite every candle-flame burning amid the flowers. A billion electrons taking the path of least resistance. In Darkness or in Light, someone is always making my choice. Be seeing you.

An interesting piece of Nacre that caught my eye originally was that the narrator claimed that it "never much cared for the change of the rules," but in Unveiling it very much did. So either Unveiling was written by someone merely interpreting the Winnower who got it wrong, or possibly something else. And one of the lore tabs from the new grimoire (that currently isn't in the game), has this:

The rules changed - a little. The pattern altered - but a micron. I got used to it, as they say. People can get used to anything, and the same holds true for concepts that have existed before and after time itself, though it may take an eon or twenty.

This implies that the Winnower changed its mind which means that Unveiling may still be written by it. Or not! It's intriguing. As I said many times, the unreliability of Unveiling is actually one of my favourite parts of the whole lore book and why it's my fave. I don't think that getting this explained would really "ruin" it or anything, but the unreliability is a part of the charm for sure.

Note also another one of my fave things about the Winnower and that's the bit where it calls itself a "concept that has existed before and after time itself." This, combined with the Heresy artifact, gives us a bit more information to work with while also fully confirming that it exists; even if it exists just as a concept.

But now that the Winnower has been explicitly stated as a speaker in lore without any ambiguity:

"The world is not built on the laws they love… Not with peace, but by victory at any means." —The Winnower

... Now a lot of stuff is much different when discussing it all. I'm actually now more inclined to believe that Oryx spoke to the Winnower then, rather than the Witness, now that we have proof the Winnower can communicate directly and would have an interest in doing so. Obviously the tone of voice of the speaker in Books of Sorrow always matched the Winnower, but it was never outside of the possibility that it was just the Witness mimicking what it essentially viewed as its deity.

At one point, especially after the writers heavily implied that Unveiling was a deliberate propaganda text written and given to us by the Witness, I thought that it was settled and that they decided to consolidate it all with the Witness, including the Books of Sorrow bits, but now that they're expanding it to the Winnower, I do think that Oryx and Unveiling were Winnower; even if the Witness may have been involved somehow, maybe as a delivery mechanism, especially for Unveiling. I like the idea of the Witness having somehow encountered the Winnower at some point, maybe like Oryx, and used that experience to essentially claim to be "the first knife" and write the text for us to make us believe in this philosophy like it was convinced. The Witness definitely believed itself to be important to the Winnower, enacting its will and philosophy across the universe as its "first knife." Even if the Winnower didn't really directly order that or care about it, other than just using it as proof that "someone is always making my choice."

I'm assuming we'll learn more during Heresy. I personally don't want the Winnower to become an enemy we fight one day, as I prefer this idea of an ambiguous observer from outside of the universe who is patiently waiting to see how "the game" unfolds; both "the game" as what it likes to call this version of the universe and also "the game" as in the 4th wall breaking sense. We'll see though! I do think it's settled beyond doubt now that the Winnower is its own thing, we just don't really know what it is. I am very interested to know more about its relationship to the Witness though, if we ever get more on that, because I'd love to hear more about it from the Winnower itself. The Witness was obviously biased and had many claims that I find dubious in nature.

Exciting situation overall! Really loved the proper confirmation for the Winnower being the speaker for the artifact because as much as I was always intrigued by the Winnower, I found it hard to talk about it like it's some confirmed character/entity. Speculation aside, we truly had no solid evidence until now, but now we do and that's really cool.

[aghostsdestiny]

Gardener with the Hive 🌿

Winnower with the Hive 🔥

@rob321453 made these awesome headcanon designs, my brain went "👀", & i got permissions to make this ✨️ full design here [link]

TY again, fam!

[rob321453]

A quick rough little comic of The Winnower and the Witness.

[sibylance]

Gardener and Winnower - Year of the Tiger

Happy New Year everyone!

[mvaljean525]

One winnows empty husks; and to what profit? Winnow that wherein is always grain.

The body is an empty husk, an empty husk is Maya: a life without Hari is empty and vain: The Pandit is an empty husk: empty are all his words: without Hari all the tales men tell are empty.

The temple is an empty husk, and pleasure and enjoyment: and empty is reliance upon other gods. Faith in the Name: this is the true devotion: with heart and word and deed Rai Das proclaims it.

----

One winnows empty husks; and to what profit? Winnow that wherein is always grain

E. W. Ormerod

Author of original: Dharmdas  1433-1543

----

Graphic - François-Louis Schmied  1873-1941

[warderfromtheborder]

We are your Salvation

I once said that the ending of Shadowkeep was frustrating on release due to that line having no meaningful conveyance, like the punchline of a 20 minute long story but we never heard the story. I also said I trusted bungie to build off of it and give it a great payoff later down the road, as a very important and Very Good story beat, validating the choice to end such a pivotal story on such a (at the time) confusing note.

And hooooo boy I think I was right.

2 things have happened since then:

The Witch Queen and its attendant story reveals came out, and

I finally got into reading Berserk

And the Shadowkeep finale makes sense to me now. The doppleganger in the Black Garden saying "We are your Salvation" is the same as Griffith saying "I will get my own Kingdom". The first time we heard it was like the first time Guts heard it, it didn't mean anything tangible or relateable, it was just a giant signpost from this being we can't ignore saying 'YO this is where we're headed smiley emoji'. 

Now, thinking back to it, after learning about 

-the Witness

-Rhulk 

-and the manipulation of whole fucking planets like chess pieces 

-and carrying the cost of loss and heartbreak 

-and the EXCRUCIATING existential misery of Crow 

-and Osiris 

-and Savathun 

-and seeing how much can actually be sacrificed for the sake of just O N E person's dream of a better world, now when I hear

We are your Salvation

I see Griffith after his reincarnation proclaiming to Guts again

I will get my own Kingdom

Because now, like Guts, we know what that destination is. It isn't just intent, it's a promise. We've seen the roadmap. We know what it costs to get there, and the Witness was telling us that we don't have a choice of whether or not to pay.

The Witness, like Griffith, is so confident in its victory, and so shamelessly unfazed by its horrific means, it walks right up to us and doesn't say,

We have killed so many uncountable numbers of life and light and struggling hope and blazing glory and unshakeable faith that it makes your attempts to subvert the rules look just so darn cute, downright adorable, but it doesn't matter, we're still going to help you yes I said help you, we're going to take all that pain away and it won't hurt anymore because by the time we're done all the things you've ever cared about and all the people you've saved and all those guns you've told yourself will be the One that fires the shot that sets Everything to rights, we will have destroyed every last bit of it and you won't be hurt by anything at all. There will be nothing to suffer from. And nothing to suffer for. And that means you will be at peace, and isn't that what's best for everything? We're going to make sure none of you has to do this any longer. 

We're going to save you, struggler.

A signpost. A promise. An immeasureable price to be paid.

We are your Salvation.

It's so good! Such a great line! It means so much! And how fucking brave to be like, 'they arent gonna know what to make of this for years to come even tho this is the definitive declaration of war from the enemy' absolute madlads I love the narrative team so much.

[zenithart]

Oh yeah, I drew this quick little object head thing with the Winnower and the Gardener like a week or two ago and I never ended up posting it, so here it is