TeaPartywithMadHatter

It's always tea time! Would you like a cuppa?

[teapartywithmadhatter]

Sam, the only love of Scarlett O'Hara

I wonder if this sea that is between us will cease or stay as it is. One of us must swim through it, babe, ‘cause there is no middle ground. Let me be the one to get lost into the sea for love, for you. S/S

An Archive of Our Own, a project of the Organization for Transformative Works

[fedonciadale]

Thank you for your response. You make excellent points about gender and how it influences the way Cersei's fans talk about her, and that many of their posts are reactionary. It makes a lot of sense. I would like to disagree with you about one thing, however, and that is your statement that Cersei fans know she's a villain and treat her as such. I know that many of her fans do, but I have witnessed just as many who do not. Oh, they'll say the words "I know Cersei is a villain," or "Yes, Cersei has done evil things," as a formality and a disclaimer, but then all of their other words about her show that deep down, they don't really see her as a villain, not really. All of her actions are seen by them as being justified. Examples: It's okay that she had her husband murdered because he was abusive, it's okay that she raped Lancel (statutory) because he was willing, it's okay that she abused Tyrion when he was a baby because she was sad about her mother, it's okay that she's abusive and toxic with Jaime because he's abusive and toxic with her too, it's really Tywin's fault that she has internalized misogyny because he taught her that, it's okay that she wished rape on the septas and tortured them because they were mean to her when she was imprisoned, it's not in any way her fault that she made stupid, selfish, and destructive decisions as queen because her father failed her by not teaching her better, she wasn't a bad parent to Joffrey because it was really all Robert's fault and not hers that Joff was the way he was, it doesn't matter that Cersei did X evil thing because she's still not as bad as Y character (they're usually referring to Daenerys here) so that makes her a better person. Good intentions are often assigned to Cersei when it's entirely unearned and undeserved, and even when there is clear evidence to the contrary, the most obvious example being the popular belief that she secretly cared about Sansa and tried to help and teach her. And the list goes on and on. I have seen all of these things stated in meta about Cersei, frequently, with no hint of irony at all. Yes, many fans may say 'We know Cersei is a villain," but all of their other words on the subject reveal that they don't really believe it. Not truly.

Hi there!

As I told you in my other answer : we are not a hivemind nor am I responsible for the opinions of others.

I personally haven't seen the metas you talk about but I think that is actually the whole point of talking about things that make a villain relatable and how exactly do you want them to acknowledge Cersei as a villain?

Is it not enough when they say so?

The whole point about posts that turns the usual perception on its head is to tell why someone who clearly is a villain comes from a background that made them as they are. That is the line of the argument. There is no need to prove that Cersei is a villain, there is need to explain where she comes from.

So I would say that making a list with things that make her relatable is not the same as refuting her as a villain. In most cases it is not even the same as saying she 'deserves' a redemption. Have you ever seen that? I think that plain out claiming she should be redeemed would deny her villainy not explaining why she did what she did. And let's be honest here: for years and years nobody has done that for Cersei.

So, I would take their words that they know Cersei is a villain at face value. And I think you should do the same.

The thing what bugs most readers is that GRRM did not write Cersei as a relatable villain and yet nowadays women find things to relate to. And there is a reason for that.

Nowadays we are more keenly aware that the possibilities of women, their agency is restricted in some ways that the agency of men is not, especially under patriarchy.

Let's take the 'poison is a woman's' method trope: a woman in an abusive relationship with a physical much stronger man may not have much options. She may fear to leave the man because there is a very real possibility that she'll be the victim of a femicid. That the man will simply kill her for daring to leave him. It happens far too often.

The law sided with the men for a long time : a man killing his ex was defined as crime of passion, a woman killing her abusive husband with poison was considered cold blooded murder (caused by base instincts). A woman could not plead self-defence for the simple reason that the poisoning had to be planned. And no matter how often the man hit her, raped her etc. she would only have been justified if she killed him while physically defending herself - fat chance for that....

For this very reason, the law in my country was reformed and crime of passion was cancelled as a definition as well as cold blooded murder. Nowadays both cases are just murder and the woman can plead mitigating circumstances.

So until very recently the imbalance of physical power was never taken into consideration.

Take Cersei and Robert. There can be no question that he is abusive. He hits her and he rapes her, he treats her with disdain. Now can Cersei do anything about that? She has a certain protection when Jaime is near but he is not always there. There is no divorce, no possibility to flee and Tywin would never take Cersei's side. She is the Queen and has all the privilege that comes with it but she is powerles against her husband. She cannot even hit him on the head with something in self defence because that would be regicide.

See, what I do here? I explain where Cersei comes from. I know she is a villain BTW.

In AGOT things finally come to a crisis. Ned threatens to expose Cersei, Robert is on a hunt and Cersei acts by instigating Lancel to make the king drunk and hope that boars do what boars usually do which is being extremely dangerous. And her gamble works.

Now, of course she could have opted to flee - but that would have been unlikely to make her and her children safe. Remember that the small Council talked about hiring assassins to kill a teenage girl in a far away country. Cersei would never have felt safe. She knew Robert and she could not count on her father to protect her.

When AGOT first came out, it was still the early nineties. Nowadays the audience and the readers see some things differently.

It is a credit to GRRM's writing that his characters still work when the perception has changed so much. The only thing that does not work any longer is manipulating the audience into detesting a character who has reasons for being as they are. And I think that is your real beef with metas like that. That people do not dislike Cersei enough, that they do not take GRRM's side in this.

GRRM wrote these characters and they are out in the world and we can interpret them and go beyond what GRRM shows us on the surface.

It's not about refuting Cersei as a villain, it's about refuting that she is a villain who has zero reasons for being as she is, someone we should not have empathy for - when Tyrion and the Hound were showered with love for ages.

Thanks for the ask.

[kudriaken]

Queen of Blacks & Queen of Greens Illustration that came from simple sketch of Alicent and Rhaenyra to whole family album. I based it mostly on my memories after reading the books, even though I liked the show very much. 

[teapartywithmadhatter]

So mystical and magical

[kate-bridgerton]

“Princess Elia was a good woman, Your Grace. She was kind and clever, with a gentle heart and a sweet wit. I know the prince was very fond of her.” -- Daenerys IV, A Storm of Swords

[all-lee24]

Cersei Lannister ♥️

I could make her worse ❤️

[teapartywithmadhatter]

Beautiful and what I actually imagine her to be.

[pessimisticpigeonsworld]

the showrunners are all so tg its insane

Yeah, I think Condal tried to disguise it a bit when season one first came out, but he's really just letting it all out now. What the fuck is he planning on doing that will make us "consider switching sides"?

I don't understand people who claim he and HoTD are biased towards TB. They made Rhaenyra be completely inactive politically outside of that one small council scene. They took Jace's interests and gave them to Aemond. They made Daemon kill Rhea, even though in the book he wasn't even in the country. They made Rhaenys and Corlys be completely unsupportive of Rhaenyra, when Rhaenys was her biggest support in the book. They removed Baela and Rhaena's personalities in favor of spending more time on the greens. They turned Laenor into an absent father who chose to abandon his children (biological or not, they were his sons).

Meanwhile, the greens get a majority of the screen time. Alicent is turned into a perpetual victim who refuses to help herself or her children, even though she's the second most powerful person in the realm. Aegon is made to be a "sympathetic" baby with daddy/mommy issues who rapes women because "he doesn't understand consent" (yes, Hess literally said this). Aemond is made to be a poor bullied baby who is actually just so right to be king, guys! Helaena is made into a dreamer yet still has no bearing on the plot other than "sad victim".

The plot itself suffers sooo much because Condal and Hess just had to make the greens into a bunch of poor innocent babies. The greens are the most cartoonishly evil Targaryens GRRM has ever written. But of course, if Condal and Hess are going to ignore the fact that Daemon is meant to be a gray character (GRRM said he's the grayest character in F&B), why wouldn't they ignore how completely shitty the greens are (with the exception of Helaena, who we know nothing about).

[rhaenin-time]

In trying to make the Greens more "sympathetic," they sacrificed the chance to have TWO complex, coherent female characters on TG

Book Helaena DID have a hint of grey. Enough that they could have written her to be the character they tried to twist Alicent into.

GRRM doesn't dive into it much, but he does at least say that she let herself be crowned at the coronation, she participated in enough planning sessions that she was in the room to urge Aegon to "generously" offer Rhaenyra terms, and she rode the second largest bonded dragon. She was a big reason why the Blacks couldn't confidently storm King's Landing.

If they truly wanted an 'innocent' victim simply finding herself on the wrong side, ostensibly doing what she needs to 'for her family,' it should have been Helaena, not Alicent. Alicent already had characterization to match her actions. Helaena was a blank slate.

And if you compare the way Helaena's and Rhaenyra's actions and tragedies are reacted to in the book, and by the narrator, it's very telling. It would have been so interesting for the show to adapt and build on that difference. In fact, there are endless ways to compare how Rhaenyra and Helaena are received differently that would have been so fascinating.

Both are dragonriders competing for the title of "Queen." Just different types of queens.

One is the "Madonna." The good girl who follows the Faith, the good wife who wants to stand behind her husband as his queen, and the good woman just doing what she's told.

The other is the "Whore." The troublesome girl who partakes in too many queer and foreign customs, the queen who dares demand to be Queen in her own right, and the woman who openly makes her own choices.

And how amazing would it be if they HAD been close when they were younger? If instead of a forced friendship that stops making sense, it's two sisters torn apart when Alicent forces Helaena to wed Aegon? When Helaena has children and realizes their lives are tied to their faction? If Helaena wants peace, but also fears for her children, and simply isn't the type of person to firmly take action?

Instead, we get whatever Alicent's supposed to be. Helaena as a plot device whom they've uncomfortably coded as neurodivegent. I say uncomfortably because it doesn't add to her at all. It feels like it's only there to explain why no one pays attention to her premonitions (which also add nothing and they didn't need to give her), justify her non-participation, and enhance her innocence so Blood and Cheese has that much more impact. And I actually find that both sexist and kinda ableist.

[teapartywithmadhatter]

Golds and Glisters;

Chapter 4: From The Underworld

Tyrion, –the son Tywin abhors and feels guilty about the most,– kills his father without giving him the courtesy of leaving the world gracefully. Now Lord Tywin Lannister has been given a second chance to get back unto the past and to right his wrongs, but this is not the chance he craves for all that glisters is not gold. Warn:Won't be a Tyrion! Sorry!

Chapter 4: From The Underworld

Tywin asks for his resignation, but it does not go as he desires…

An Archive of Our Own, a project of the Organization for Transformative Works

[teapartywithmadhatter]

Like I'm Gonna Lose You;

Chapter 2: Burning Love

I wonder if this sea that is between us will cease or stay as it is. One of us must swim through it, babe, ‘cause there is no middle ground. Let me be the one to get lost into the sea for love, for you. S/S

Chapter 2: Burning Love

The confession of a burning love…

An Archive of Our Own, a project of the Organization for Transformative Works

[sincerely-wyvern]

“With the blessing of his majesty, I am pleased to announce a betrothal,” he began.

There was a murmuring around the hall. Eyes quickly darted between the prince and Tywin’s daughter.

“My beloved daughter, Cersei,” he continued, speaking over the hushed conversations, “and Prince Rhaegar.”

Beaming, Cersei fought the urge to look down the table at her beloved Rhaegar. He was probably as excited as she was.

[teapartywithmadhatter]

Ooh! This is so interesting!

[venusintheblindspots-blog]

Also, this fandom is very weird towards the women in ASOIAF having their own political ambitions, (or ambition in general).

I think that’s why in conversations where I’m defending Elia, I always have to mention that Dorne married her to Rhaegar so she could become the Queen. Whether she was polyamorous or not, it did not matter once she married Rhaegar. Her not being okay with him and Lyanna will always be more plausible to me.

This can apply to Nettles too. She spent her entire life living in the lowest class in Westeros. Her claiming of Sheepstealer isn’t tied to ancient magic or special bloodline abilities. A more likely explanation is Nettles saw an opportunity to get better for herself and took it. Her tears after the Battle of the Gullet is more than likely not about Jace either, but rather the fact that she lost her home.

These characters having ambitions does not remove their humanity or make them any less sympathetic. Allow the women of ASOIAF to be full characters and not accessories to the male characters.

[teapartywithmadhatter]

That's always the case, most of the times, in The pasts, women get punished double for the same crime that a man also committed, but when comes to their rights, then they're not considered as human, but an accessory for a man...

[teapartywithmadhatter]

Like I'm Gonna Lose You;

Chapter 1: Lemonade Crush

I wonder if this sea that is between us will cease or stay as it is. One of us must swim through it, babe, ‘cause there is no middle ground. Let me be the one to get lost into the sea for love, for you. S/S

Chapter 1: Lemonade Crush

Scarlett is trying to hold onto one of her promises...

An Archive of Our Own, a project of the Organization for Transformative Works

[teapartywithmadhatter]

Golds and Glisters;

Chapter 3: The First Crack in The Levee

Tyrion, –the son Tywin abhors and feels guilty about the most,– kills his father without giving him the courtesy of leaving the world gracefully.

Now Lord Tywin Lannister has been given a second chance to get back unto the past and to right his wrongs, but this is not the chance he craves for all that glisters is not gold. Warn:Won't be a Tyrion! Sorry!

Chapter 3: The First Crack in The Levee

Lord Lannister faces one emotional challenge that he had not predicted if he got the chance to see Joanna would he struggle with.

An Archive of Our Own, a project of the Organization for Transformative Works

[teapartywithmadhatter]

Okay, this is a Persian symbol, and every time I think of Cersei x Oberyn or Elia x Jaime or Myrcella x Trystan pairings I remember this symbol. 

Lion and Sun, imagine a dynasty of Lannisters and Martells with a flag like that!

Did you know the mane of a lion represents the flares of the sun in Persian?

Sun is Life! And the Lion is the protector of the realm!

[jacenyra]

cersei lannister x oberyn martell aesthetic

[writingwithcolor]

Dark features/people as blessed, white and light people as sick

ladyoftheseastuff asked:

I'm writing a fantasy story where the world is permanently covered in snow & ice. The people share a common culture & are loyal to their city states, but they are not homogeneous in appearance; there will be many, many characters coded as PoC. The main religion centers on the sun, & those with dark features are 'favoured' by the sun god, while pale people or anyone who has white/blonde hair are thought vulnerable to "snow sickness", a disease caused by environmental factors (1/2) & have other rules and customs to gain religious approval. It's dangerous & infectious but not well understood. It affects social standing and opportunities, but it's meant to be tied with ideas of youth, vitality, & fear of aging & sickness: it's not limited to those coded as white. This is a cultural detail and not part of the main conflict, but I want to avoid unintentional allegories/parallels & fetishization. Is this a concept that's too close to crossing any of those lines? (2/2)

This feels less like a means to show dark skinned people in an empowering light and more like a weak attempt at subversion. My primary concern (which you have not specified) is how do the "blessed" class treat the "sickly" so to speak. We have fantasy stories like The Grisha Trilogy and Girls of Paper and Fire, which deal with magical ability/feature-based segregation and conflict.

In both cases there is a sense of entitlement which comes with hailing from the "favoured" class, quite obvious, since there will always be an inherent othering metaphor whenever you create such a division, whether it was meant to be a source of conflict or not.

However, the two mentioned series use the "magical people are blessed, non magical people are to be pitied" arc which is somewhat more subtle than divisions created just on the basis of skin colour.

Disclaimer as I do not have albinism or vitiligo: The latter can be extremely harmful, and not just in a racial context, but in cases of albinism, vitiligo etc.

~Mod Mimi

The pitfalls of subversions

While it is always lovely to see dark features considered in a favorable way, there are some issues you may come across. Such a story could easily end up dressing those you wished to uphold as bad guys in the readers' eyes, even if the story's society and the sun god etc. thinks they're amazing, and white and light people as the victims of dark people, deserving reader sympathy. This may especially be the case based on how these groups get treated in the story.

These sort of subversions lean dangerously into "reverse discrimination" plots which are not overall accurate or favorable allegories for your real, human audience. There being diversity on both sides doesn't necessary fix this issue or remove racial or ethnic implications. On that note, and as Mimi mentioned, being demonized and ostracized particularly for skin and genetic disorders like albinism is already a thing. What does your concept say of them?

I think Dark/Black as good and Light/white as bad is a doable concept. Your concept differs a bit from simply subverting black/white tropes. This is not just Black good guys and night skies being peaceful or neutral. It's not just white/light villains (as opposed to victims) or snow symbolling death or sickness.

White and light people are quite blatantly being declared as sick and unfavored and they may very well be victims in the reader's eye with the dark people being the villainous, unsympathetic bunch. Is this your intention?

More to consider

Such a concept requires thoughtful, careful planning and intentional writing. You should have an understanding of what your story implies to the readers and the real-life takeaways.

I think it's possible to make dark skin the favored skin of the sun god without it meaning white/light people stand in a negative light and are sick or unworthy.

Consider what it is that you like about the concept of your story. Can you keep the essence of whatever it is that excites you about your ideas, without denying a whole group of people favor? If not, how will you go about telling such a tale that is not meant to symbolize a sort of reversal of roles discrimination?

Why does the sun god get to determine what is good?

Are there other gods that might have different strong opinions? Perhaps who is favored varies by time of day, season, region, culture, god?

Can dark skin get its favor without white and light features being deemed unfavorable as a whole?

How big of a deal does this favor have to be? I advise reconsidering it being the point of discrimination to white/light people for all the reasons already described.

No matter the directions you go, please research and get the appropriate beta-readers for feedback on the in-depth concepts and story.

~Mod Colette

[myrishswamp]

Rhaegar always knew how to make her feel like a Queen. The way he pushed his fingers inside her while they sat at a feast, or the way he kissed the blonde curls between her legs. There was something strong and powerful about riding his cock though, the way his chest flexed under her nails, the way he moaned her name, the way his hands grabbed at her hips hard enough to bruise. When she had dreamed of riding dragons as a young girl she had never imagined she would feel so powerful atop her mount.

[teapartywithmadhatter]

Why there's not much Rhaegar x Cersei?

[asoiafrarepairs]

Cersei x Rhaegar - After Rhaegar crowns Cersei his Queen of Love and Beauty, he spirits her away and secretly weds her even as the Seven Kingdoms descend into war over her abduction. She bears him a child, and LIVES...

Added to our prompt page!

[teapartywithmadhatter]

Love to read such a story.