Pigeon Queen

Ellie, 21, she/her Rhaenyra and Daenerys are the rightful queens, argue with the wall Arya is wonderful and deserves the world Multishipper (but daemyra owns my heart rn)

[pessimisticpigeonsworld]

HOTD has made many interesting choices in their adaptation of the story of the Dance. One of their favorite excuses for many of their questionable choices is "feminism". Why did they remove Alicent's ambitions and autonomy? Feminism. Why is Rhaenyra less proactive and hesitant? Feminism. Why are Daemon and Otto the primary active agents in the lead up to the Dance? Well women can't be in the wrong or violent, so feminism.

These choices are the farthest thing from feminist; they're sexist, end of story. Every decision surrounding the women of the Dance reeks of benevolent sexism. One of the most obviously sexist decisions made is the purposeful removal of female cooperation and friendship.

Rhaenyra in F&B has many female allies and friends. Her ladies in waiting loved her so much, one of them, Lady Elinda Massey gouged out her eyes at the sight of Rhaenyra's death. Lady Jeyne Arryn, Lady Alysanne Blackwood, and Lady Sabitha Frey/Vypren are just a few examples of ladies who fought for Rhaenyra (Alysanne and Sabitha literally fought in battles). Lady Fell chose death over betraying her oath to Rhaenyra.

Now, we haven't had any opportunity to meet most of these women I listed in the show. Lady Fell was portrayed as she was written in the book, a very minor character who simply foreshadowed how most of the realm would choose Rhaenyra over Aegon. Elinda Massey, however was reduced to an unnamed servant, not even a lady in waiting. Her treatment is an echo of one of my biggest issues with HOTD, the treatment of Laena and Rhaenys.

Laena was Rhaenyra's dearest friend in the book, in fact it's implied that they had a romantic relationship. Whether you believe that telling or not, it's undeniable that she and Laena were extremely close. They chose to betroth their children while they were infants, Rhaenyra flew to Laena's bedside during her final labor, and she stood vigil with Daemon over Laena's body.

All of that closeness and intimacy was removed in the show to make room for Alicent. So let's break that down: they removed a long and healthy relationship between two women and replaced it with a short-lived (in terms of screen time) friendship that quickly fell apart and turned into an intense rivalry. Reinforcing an old stereotype of female friendship: that it is entrenched in rivalry and toxicity and can quickly be turned to enmity. Alicent was so quickly and easily turned against Rhaenyra and it's even implied that she was jealous of Rhaenyra long before they became enemies.

Rhaenys in the book was an ardent supporter of Rhaenyra. She happily claimed Jace, Luke, and Joff as her grandsons, advised Rhaenyra to go to war, and gladly flew against Aegon and Aemond.

Meanwhile, in the show, Rhaenys was turned into one of Rhaenyra's rivals. She constantly challenged Rhaenyra's ideas, dismissed her as a naive child, disliked her children, and even considered backing the Greens. On top of that, they turned her into yet another "peaceful" woman. She advises against the war, and seems to continue to do so in season two. Rhaenys is virtually unrecognizable in the show. They chose to take a woman who tried to prevent a younger woman being wronged by the patriarchy the same way she was and turned her into a bitter woman who resents Rhaenyra (for most of the show).

HOTD claimed to have wanted to tell a story about how the patriarchy pits women against each other. That's all very well and good, but that's not what they actually did. They took a story where a woman is wrongfully usurped because of her gender and is supported by many other women and turned it into another tired female rivalry story.

Rhaenyra has no female friends aside from Alicent. Laena was turned from her dearest friend/lover into simply a rival for Daemon's affection. Rhaenys was turned from a supportive mentor and defender to someone who took out her resentment for the system on a fourteen year old who only starts to support her when she's proven "peaceful".

HOTD chose to perpetuate a harmful stereotype about women: that we constantly view each other as threats/rivals and can't have truly healthy relationships with other women. Rhaenyra had women who supported and cared for her in the book, in the show all she has is Alicent. A woman who abused and undermined her for ten years, raised her children to hate her, and usurped her. Every change HOTD made in the name of "feminism" solidified just how sexist it really is.

[pessimisticpigeonsworld]

Ok listen, not that Aliens isn't a fun movie, but I think it really missed the point of Alien (1979). The themes of violation, forced pregnancy/birth, loss of autonomy, and forced sacrifice are almost completely gone in Aliens.

Granted, a huge reason for this is because of the switch in genres: Lovecraftian horror to 80s action. However, I feel like having this kind of film directly following the original really ruins everything Ridley Scott set up.

The Xenomorphs are made into machine gun fodder, have almost all the intelligence of the original removed, and are basically made into threats only because of their numbers/lack of weaponry. Their acid blood is basically made obsolete except for like a few scenes. They are made more insectoid which removes the intensely unearthly look H.R Giger created.

Even the adding of the Xenomorph queen, I'd argue, takes away from the fundamental themes of the Xenomorphs themselves. The Xenomorph was always meant to be evocative of male genitalia. This was due to the themes of violation and forced birth. What impregnates? What is used for the most ancient violation of women's bodies? Making the primary monster a female and changing her design to remove the penis imagery kills the image Giger and Ridley Scott intended.

Aliens is the reason studios decided to go the route of Alien: Resurrection and Alien vs Predator. Action movies where the Xenomorphs are only there for fight scenes. All intelligence and deeper themes are removed from them and I think that's a massive disservice to the original Alien movie and everything that went into it.

Side note: I also hate that the Xeno's head was made ridged and opaque and I'm really happy more recent movies have returned closer to the original design.

[pessimisticpigeonsworld]

GOT Demonizing Women and Idealizing Men

GOT had a nasty habit of portraying their female characters in the worst light possible, while painting so many men as better/more saintly than their books counterparts.

Now, obviously, I am not talking about characters like Cersei or Lysa, who very obviously are meant to be antagonists. Neither am I talking about Baristan Selmy or Ned Stark. And I am perfectly aware of how well they portrayed Ramsay Bolton and Walder Frey. Therefore I am not talking about them, nor do I need to be "reminded" of them.

The Women

Doreah

Doreah was one of Dany's only friends in AGOT (ie one of her handmaidens). She helped her learn to survive with the Dothraki, taught her ways to get Drogo to love her, and was a support to Dany as a fellow outsider in the Khalasar. When she dies in ACOK, it's in the Red Waste. Dany held her as she died and gave her water from her own skin, despite they were in a desert and needed to keep moving.

For whatever reason, the show decided to completely destroy her. In season one, she is used pretty much only for a queerbait scene, and other than that she's basically another faceless member of the Khalasar. In season two, not only does she survive the Red Waste, but she dies after betraying Dany. She sells the dragons, strangles Irri, and gets locked in Xaro's vault with him to starve to death. This is made even more disgusting by the fact that she is a victim of sex trafficking.

Now, I can understand why Dany's handmaidens don't get super fleshed out, I mean they're not very fleshed out in the books anyway. There are a lot of more important characters, and many side characters got removed to make it all less confusing. What I can't understand is turning Doreah into a shallow and sex obsessed traitor.

Sansa Stark

Now this one may seem a little confusing, "But Ellie, Sansa is one of the only women who gets a happy ending!" That may be true, but in giving her this happy ending, GOT made her into a manipulative, cold, and uncaring character.

Sansa not only constantly undermines Jon Snow as king, she flat out gets Rickon killed by refusing to tell Jon about the Vale knights when he's strategizing. According to Sophie Turner, she did this purely for the glory that moment would give her. Much like Cersei, you know, a mentally unstable tyrant, she places herself and her desire for power over the lives of her last living relatives (that she knows of) when she's spent almost the whole show wishing to be reunited with her family.

She openly takes inspiration for her ruling from Cersei and Littlefinger, two of the primary antagonists in her storyline. Like them, she doesn't care about anyone or anything but her own desire to rule.

When Daenerys arrives in the North, Sansa openly insults her and risks driving her away or goading her into attacking. Daenerys' dragons and army are needed to prevent the literal apocalypse; but Sansa doesn't care about the literal end of the world, she just wants to be the most powerful person in the room. Again, much like Cersei.

Speaking of her relationship with Dany, something D&D literally said about their meeting was that Sansa literally dislikes her because she's "too pretty". As in Sansa hates a woman because she might be prettier than her. How fucking shallow and insulting to women is that? And, again, they make her a reflection of Cersei in that.

For some reason, D&D decided that in order for Sansa to have her "good" ending, she has to become Cersei 2.0; in other words, yet another vain and cruel tyrant. Even D&D's supposedly favorite character is completely destroyed.

In the books, while Sansa is cruel to Arya and superficial in AGOT, she grows. She is learning that those who she was taught are lesser than are actually equally deserving of care and understanding (as Alayne Stone). She desires to care for her people if she was ever to become queen (even though she is currently being manipulated by Littlefinger). The last thing she would ever want to be is a second Cersei, yet that is what D&D turned her into.

The Sand Snakes

The show decided to defang the Sand Snakes (and the entire Dornish Plot) and turn them into simply opportunities for more sex scenes. They lose any individual personalities, competency, and ambition. Their plan is only used to kill off Myrcella. After that, they fail and are basically useless except to be turned into sex objects to please the horny male audience D&D most wanted to target.

Daenerys Targaryen

I have made so many posts about how GOT fucked over Dany. I don't really feel like going into it in a lot of detail again, but instead I'll try to summarize it.

Not only does Dany end the show with the bullshit "mad queen" arc, but her kindness, love for her people, intelligence, and wisdom are all systematically removed as the show goes on. Her Meereen arc has all its complexity and intrigue removed and all the problems are solved in five minutes because the Slavers decided to just stop fighting after talking to Tyrion.

Dany in the books cares so deeply for her people (calling them her children), is a brilliant strategist, and is incredibly wise despite being sixteen and younger. The show drained all of that from her before killing her by having her lover stab her in the womb.

Other

There are so many women removed, despite the importance of their characters to the plot. Jeyne Poole, Lady Stoneheart, and Arianna Martell are each cut out of the show to make room for boring and pointless arcs and bland men.

The Men

Jorah Mormont

In the books, Jorah is a creepy, obsessive man who actively tries to sabotage Dany by trying to push away any other men in her life. He kissed her without consent and constantly made Dany uncomfortable with his inappropriate behavior. When Tyrion finds him in Volantis, he literally is finding prostitutes (who are sex slaves btw) who resemble her.

The show, however, decided to make his obsession with Dany into a noble and chivalric love. He's made out to be heroic and just wants to spend his life protecting her, even if she doesn't love him. Dany is portrayed as overreacting when she sends him away for literally selling her out to the man who wants to kill her.

I think these choices with Jorah show just how perverted D&D are. Jorah is a pedophile who tries to groom Dany. Even his second wife, Lynesse, was half his age; GRRM makes it clear this is a pattern for him. But D&D took this and made him into the only one of Dany's "love interests" to truly care about her.

Euron Greyjoy

I know, I know, Euron is still an antagonist in the show. However, he is made tame and even at times comedic rather than the complete psychopath who can give Ramsay a run for his money that he is in the books.

In the books, Euron literally molested his younger brother Urrigon, tortures and murders Aeron, and is implied to have murdered Baelon (or at least had a hand in his death somehow). His ship is manned by men he cut the tongues out of. He is obsessed with Valyrian magic, has a full suit of Valyrian steel armor and a dragon binder. His end goal is to literally help bring about the Long Night and help the Others.

Euron is meant to be in direct conflict with Jon and Dany, not an accessory to Cersei. The only big role he played in the show was when he brokered a marriage deal with Cersei and was killed by Jaime. Sure, the Iron Fleet shot down Rhaegal (which was total bullshit btw), but that wasn't even Euron's plan, it happened by sheer luck.

Euron is the most fantastical villain in the books aside from the Others themselves. But the show took all of that away and made him boring yet more palatable.

Varys

I literally can't understand where the show got that Varys' only true goal is "to serve the realm". Sure, that is a line he says to Tyrion in ACOK, but it is so obvious that he's lying. If Varys had been a woman, the show would have kept that motivation as a lie, but instead they made him a "true servant of the realm".

His true motivation is revealed in ADWD: to put Young Griff aka Aegon VI (supposedly) on the Iron Throne. Varys is implied to be a descendant of the Blackfyres (when he was castrated it was by a red priest who needed his flesh and blood for a ritual, ie blood of kings, he works with the Golden Company, who were founded by a Blackfyre), as is Young Griff. He's also believed to have encouraged Aerys' madness to increase the likelihood of a rebellion. Meaning his motivation is to fulfill Daemon Blackfyre's ambition, to put the Blackfyres on the Iron Throne.

The show chose to write Young Griff out completely (part of the destruction of the Dornish Plot), which left Varys free to be turned into a supposedly noble man who just wanted to protect Westeros.

Tyrion Lannister

Up until season 5, Tyrion is portrayed rather faithfully (as most characters were). After that point, D&D decided to make him the show's moral authority and the audience stand-in.

Tyrion is arguably the most morally gray of the key five, yet that is completely ignored. They use him to magically solve all Dany's problems in Essos, condemn Dany, and prop up Sansa and Bran. It's through this new Tyrion's eyes we are supposed to view the world. As such, he is given the morals of a 21st century man, rather than what he truly had in the book.

Conclusion

D&D make their sexism painfully clear in how they chose to alter GRRM's characters. Every woman is butchered while the men are given the best light possible for their positions.

[pessimisticpigeonsworld]

People in the ASOIAF fandom are very obsessed with passive women they can project onto. The obsessions with the characters of show!Alicent, Sansa, Elia, and Helaena are perfect examples of this.

In the show, Alicent is changed from a woman who actively seeks power and heads the scheming of the green faction into a passive victim who watches and reacts to the men around her. And yet, despite this being a much more boring characterization, the show version is vastly more preferred by her stans. They condemn her book character as simply an "evil stepmother trope" while completely ignoring how their fav is just as blank and tropey as they accuse her book counterpart to be. Alicent stans want her to be the show's blank victimized canvas.

Helaena is someone who the show changed very little in the adaptation, because both book and show Helaena have little impact on the plot other than to be victims of their surroundings. Both women are forced to marry Aegon at thirteen and have his children, go through B&C, and are the least active members of the green faction. The show only added elements to make her more tragic: her dreaming and autistic behaviors. Helaena's character makes her the perfect canvas for certain fans to project themselves onto as she simply exists to be victimized and play the dutiful wife/daughter despite her circumstances, just like the show version of her mother.

Elia Martell is a woman who we know very little about. She died thirteen years before the events of ASOIAF and, unlike characters like Rhaegar and Lyanna, she has no pov characters who think about her enough for us to learn anything about her. The only things we know are that she was loved by her family, was in an arranged marriage to Rhaegar, had his two (confirmed) children, and was brutally raped and murdered by Lannister men. She is an unknown character and, again unlike Rhaegar and Lyanna, has no known active role in the events surrounding the Rebellion. Because of these things, she is, again, the perfect blank canvas for people to project on.

Sansa is, despite being a prominent pov character in ASOIAF, a very passive character. She rarely takes action in her circumstances and simply reacts to them while trying to survive. There's nothing wrong with this, she's a young girl who has never had to fight for anything in her life, it's not unexpected or condemnable for her reaction to her circumstances to be this way. However, her passivity is something her stans obsess over. She is praised for being the "perfect lady" and they project their desires to see her rule onto her and how they view her story.

These women have been chosen by these fans because of their passivity and tragedy. They love that the women have suffered in the name of the "duty" they believe is higher than them. Because they love passivity, they hate the women of ASOIAF who are active in their own lives and fight to better their circumstances. Characters like Rhaenyra, Arya, Daenerys, and Lyanna are all massive influences on the world and purposely chose to challenge the patriarchy. Since they did not take their suffering silently, theses certain fans view them as wrong and hate them. They only love the women they can project on and who simply refuse to fight for better lives.

[violet-moonstone]

Very troubling to refer to Elia Martell as "simply refusing to fight for a better life." It's such an unnecessarily cruel thing to say. I understand the desire to appreciate female characters who defy patriarchal oppression, but surely that can be done without victim blaming.

It's saddening (but not surprising tbh) how many people read the story of a woman who was mistreated and brutalized and came away seeing nothing but an afterthought to be dismissed or belittled.

The lack of response/resolution to these characters' oppression is actually a quite compelling reason to be interested in them -- because it feels like their story isn't complete. They have unfinished business, and people want to fill in the blanks.

It's also worth noting that some people feel a strong affinity towards characters in shitty situations who don't know how to get out. I don't think that's a bad thing.

[pessimisticpigeonsworld]

Wow ok, you clearly didn't read what I wrote, did you?

First of all: I never said Elia refused to fight against her circumstances, I only said that about show!Alicent. I said there's not much known about her other than the tragic events of her death and that she was a gentle woman, well loved by her family. Many people in the fandom use that as an excuse to project their ideas of a perfect victim onto her.

Did I say anywhere that people aren't allowed to find comfort or see themselves in characters in similar circumstances to them? No, that clearly isn't what I'm talking about.

The fact that you chose to twist my words and take every one of my points in bad faith says a lot about you. If you don't see yourself reflected in what I'm saying then I'm not fucking talking about you!

I don't get why that's so hard for people to understand.

[pessimisticpigeonsworld]

A Knight of the Seven Kingdoms is to HBO's GOT universe as Andor is to Disney's Star Wars.

No, I will not elaborate.

[pessimisticpigeonsworld]

booooo mistress lyana fans booooo pedo ratgar fans yall mental bitches are hags glorifying cheating and pedophilia 🍅🍅🍅🍅🍅🍅🍅🍅🍅🍅🍅🍅🍅🍅🍅🍅🍅🍅🍅🍅🍅🍅🍅🍅🍅🍅🍅🍅🍅🍅🍅🍅🍅

You know, I gotta say: I appreciate the creativity with the tomatoes. It's so much better than the typical telling me to kill myself, so that's fun.

Anyway: I don't understand why people are hating on me for simply stating what the author wrote. If you have a problem with the relationship GRRM wrote, take it up with him? What the fuck do you want me to do? Rewrite yrh books?

Like I totally get not liking/being uncomfortable with the relationships GRRM writes. His books are full of taboo relationships, but that's kind of what you sign up for when you choose to read his stuff🤷🏻‍♀️

I think there can be a constructive conversation about GRRMS's portrayal of underage relationships. However, calling me names and accusing me of "glorifying pedophilia" is the exact opposite of that. I am literally saying what is in the book, it's not my fault that people lack the reading comprehension to understand what is very plainly written.

So maybe, instead of accusing me of being an evil person for stating what was written very obviously in the book, you could actually criticize the author if you have a problem with what was written. Blindly denying something you don't like in the books is fucking stupid.

Also this is a fantasy series, you're not supposed to take the subjects like literal incest, murder, rape, child marriage, and ice zombies and apply it to real life. Like a said there's a conversation to be had about writing about vs glorifying things. But calling me a pro-pedophile hag is really not how to have it.

[pessimisticpigeonsworld]

So I was just looking for a lovely Feanor fic. I just wanted to enjoy a good story about Feanor reconciling with his sons/wife. And what assaulted my eyes but this.

Like how are Sansa stans infecting the Silmarillion fandom? Is nothing sacred??

Also what the fuck is Sansa going to do to "save" the house of Feanor? Like if Feanor and his sons weren't going to listen to their wife/mother or their closest friends why the fuck would they listen to her? Is she going to "outsmart" Morgoth? Like what the fuck is this??😭😭

[nooooooooooooooooooooone]

She told herself that there were powers stronger than hatred, and spells older and truer than any the maegi had learned in Asshai. The night was black and moonless, but overhead a million stars burned bright.

Daenerys IX, A Game of Thrones

[pessimisticpigeonsworld]

Gosh Rhaegar loved Lyanna! Elia was just the broodmare.

Ok see I hate when people say shit like this and expect me to agree with them. Like calling Elia a broodmare is just as gross as calling Laena or Naerys broodmares. They're victims of the patriarchal society in ASOIAF, we should acknowledge them as such. They all deserve our sympathy and we should be disturbed by their treatment in the books.

Yes, Rhaegar and Lyanna loved each other, and Lyanna does more in the plot than Elia does. That doesn't mean we should just treat her the way the literal antagonists of the series do; ie as a broodmare or any other misogynistic bullshit.

[cowboysanddragons23]

There is literally nothing that suggests that Rhaegar and Lyanna loved each other. Barristan, Jon Con, Kevan and Cersei were neither at the Tower of Joy nor they belonged to Rhaegar's inner circle.

It's funny that you claim to defend Elia and Lyanna, yet you viscerally despise Elia because she gets in the middle of your ship and you want to skin away Lyanna from everything that makes Lyanna her in favour of being a simpering, soulless self insert whose sole trait is dancing around Rhaegar's songs while the corpses of her family are fresh.

[riana-one]

Got to love when the shippers drop the faux feminism act (true love! Real women ride horses and play at swords! Ect) in order to show their true pick me energy.

The only true worth of a woman comes from her attracting the attention of a man.

Sadly, they fail to actually read the text in favor of their same borderline identical SI fics.

If anyone is the broodmare it was poor Lyanna.

Rhaegar visited Dorne before his betrothal was announced, he could have refused up the actual wedding day if he decided he didn't want to marry Elia, and no one is forcing the crown prince at sword point to the sept!

Rhaegar choose Elia to be his bride.

Rhaegar choose Elia to be his future queen.

Rhaegar choose Elia to be the mother of his heirs.

To the point of endangering her life with two dangerous back to back pregnancies with in the first two years of their marriage.

It isn't until the birth of Aegon where the maesters say another pregnancy will kill Elia and the child does Rhaegar turn to Lyanna Stark.

The timeline where Rhaegar takes Lyanna, doesn't stirr out of Dorne until he knows she is pregnant, despite a year of war raging across Westeros proves it.

And you know, the only time Rhaegar canonically speaks for himself.

Rhaegar: Aegon. What better name for a king?

Elia: Will you make a song for him?

Rhaegar: He has a song. He is the prince that was promised, and his is the song of ice and fire. There must be one more. The dragon has three heads.

—Rhaegar and Elia Martell in Daenerys Targaryen's vision in the House of the Undying

[pessimisticpigeonsworld]

First off: Rhaegar is confirmed by GRRM himself to have loved Lyanna (literally called him a lovestruck prince). I don't fucking know how many times I have to say this. If this was a drinking game, I'd have died of alcohol poisoning by now.

Second: Rhaegar didn't choose to marry Elia, it was an arranged marriage. Neither Rhaegar nor Elia chose to marry each other. Yes, they were fond of each other, but that's the only thing confirmed about their relationship. Also note that when the book describes this, GRRM doesn't use any of the phrasing he uses to describe secretly romantic relationships (ie more than fond).

Rhaegar didn't leave Dorne "one he knew Lyanna was pregnant". He left because Robert's forces were advancing closer to victory. He left because he didn't want them to reach King's Landing. Plus the timeline of your claim doesn't line up at all. Lyanna's pregnancy would have been confirmed months before he left, why would he stay that extra time? It's not like he'd be able to impregnate her again if she miscarried. Even at that time they knew a woman can't conceive again for 2-3 months at least after a miscarriage.

Lyanna was able to carry to term, deliver safely, and develop childbed fever before Ned ever arrived, meaning Lyanna wouldn't have been only just confirmed to be pregnant when Rhaegar left.

Also that quote you referenced only proves that Rhaegar knew about the prophecy. He understood that there had to be a third head of the dragon for the prophecy, that doesn't mean he's going to go out and kidnap a girl, forcefully impregnate her, and hold her captive. You know, that sounds a lot more like something Robert would do. You know, the man Rhaegar saved Lyanna from being forced into marriage with.

Whether you agree with Rhaegar and Lyanna running away together or not, the fact is GRRM has painted a pretty clear picture of Rhaegar's personality throughout the series.

Barristan Selmy has been proven to be a relatively reliable narrator when it comes to the personalities of those around him. Ned is known to be extremely critical of those around him in terms of honor and nobility (Robert aside). Both these men think of Rhaegar as an honorable man. Even Cersei, notoriously paranoid and pessimistic about those around her, remembered Rhaegar as a good man.

I don't understand how you and everyone like you can take a falsely superior mentality about your "reading" of ASOIAF. The fact is, all of you only remember what suites you and ignore anything (including the author's own words) that disprove your perception.

[pessimisticpigeonsworld]

I find it interesting how so many TG stans are also Rhaegar antis. Like obviously, TG stans usually are very anti Targaryen, but the fact that the people who stan an actual rapist hate Rhaegar is wild.

Every Rhaegar anti spouts the same shit about how he's either a manipulative madman obsessed with a prophecy or he abducted and raped Lyanna. It's so wild to me how people will blatantly ignore things characters in ASOIAF and the literal author have said about Rhaegar. It's even more wild that these people will just stan and adore Aegon and Aemond who are actual rapists and mass murderers.

Everything Rhaegar antis accuse him of being are exemplified in Aegon and Aemond. They are warmongers, rapists, power hungry, imprison/abduct innocent women, and purposely started a war. I just can't understand this fandom.

[cowboysanddragons23]

And ironically enough, you do the exact same thing with Rhaegar. I am not Team Green or Team Black, but you seriously underestimate how haunted and traumatized Rhaegar was by the prophecy (and let's not forget that you obsessively focus on the "Prince Rhaegar loved his lady Lyanna" but always cut out the "and thousands died for it" because you are too chicken to confront the consequences): He was born after his family burned to death at Summerhall, with only his parents and himself surviving, having to bear the weight of the Targaryen dynasty and witnessing his father go mad and his mother suffer marital abuse and birthing dead baby after dead baby.

All this pain and suffering had to be for something, right? This is why he took Lyanna, not out of love or lust, but because he sought to prove that the prophecy that forced his conception and caused untold pain and suffering to his family was real, so that said pain and suffering has a meaning, only for his parents dying, his wife and children dying, his "lover" dying and his siblings going to Essos in exile.

Rhaegar is Summerhall made flesh. That is his tragedy.

[pessimisticpigeonsworld]

Ok see from the minute you said "not team green or team black", I knew you were about to be insufferable. The Dance of the Dragons isn't a true "team" thing, because one side is very obviously in the wrong; ie the greens. And don't even try the argue "all sides are bad for the common people, monarchy is bad🥺" argument. That's a copout and blatantly ignores anything GRRM was trying to say through the story of the Dance.

Although you seem to be very invested in ignoring things GRRM has said. Like the time he called Rhaegar "a love struck prince". Thus proving that yes, Rhaegar loved Lyanna and did stupid things for the sake of that.

Yeah, I don't agree with his actions, it was foolish of both of them to do what they did. However, the fact that they loved each other is never in question in the books.

Also the fact that you're blaming the rebellion on Rhaegar alone is really fucking wild. Do you, by chance, remember what the rebellion is called? Ned's Rebellion? Tywin's Rebellion? No, Robert's Rebellion. Robert Baratheon chose to rebel and start a war that killed thousands because he couldn't take Lyanna against her will and rape and abuse her for the rest of her life.

The fact is, the rebellion was brewing long before Lyanna and Rhaegar even met. If you want to point a finger at who is responsible for deaths of thousands, look at Aerys. Aerys was a mad tyrant who needlessly and ruthlessly murdered anyone he wanted. It's hinted that Rhaegar was making arrangements for a rebellion at the tourney at Harrenhal. Whether Lyanna and Rhaegar ran away together or not, a rebellion was going to happen because of Aerys' actions.

Now, do you want to know why I most often write about Rhaegar's love for Lyanna? Because dipshits like you are always arguing about it needlessly so I try to point out the very obvious evidence. There's no proof that Rhaegar went with Lyanna for the prophecy alone, in fact there's a lot of evidence to the contrary.

Literally no one is arguing about whether Rhaegar was scarred by Summerhall or that the prophecy severely affected him. That's why I don't argue with people about it, like why would I spend my time talking to a wall about something. That's literally not the issue here, maybe you should use your brain for once.

[pessimisticpigeonsworld]

Gosh Rhaegar loved Lyanna! Elia was just the broodmare.

Ok see I hate when people say shit like this and expect me to agree with them. Like calling Elia a broodmare is just as gross as calling Laena or Naerys broodmares. They're victims of the patriarchal society in ASOIAF, we should acknowledge them as such. They all deserve our sympathy and we should be disturbed by their treatment in the books.

Yes, Rhaegar and Lyanna loved each other, and Lyanna does more in the plot than Elia does. That doesn't mean we should just treat her the way the literal antagonists of the series do; ie as a broodmare or any other misogynistic bullshit.

[pessimisticpigeonsworld]

She is a white savior that Daenerys believes to be the Mysha of the slaves, in addition to her arrogance of thinking that she is the only savior, she has that hero complex like her brother Rhaegar had that caused a war for his prophecy, I saw the publication and it makes sense Aegon according to what he dreamed of in the long night, but for me the author invented it to make it seem like the foreigners subjugated Westeros, for me it is not fair that Daenerys and her fans believe that she deserves the credit of many people who also fight against the others.

I'm sorry, have you ever read the books? Or even seen the show for that matter? Literally none of this is true in either one.

Dany didn't create the title of Mhysa, the Yunkai'i slaves she freed did. Then the name was picked up by the slaves in Meereen and others all over Essos. It's a title; it's awarded by others, that's how they work.

Dany takes this title as a responsibility. She feels a level of responsibility and care for the slaves and freedmen that no other pov ruler does. She understands the weight of ruling as no one else does; it's a ruler's responsibility to care for the people and do justice on their behalf. She is motivated by her genuine care in all the released books and in the seasons when she's in Essos.

Where are you getting that she has a hero complex? I'm assuming since you're talking about the Others, you're talking about the events of the show's ending. Well, even with how D&D royally fucked up, Dany didn't believe herself to be the only person fighting the Others, nor does she begrudge other people their credit.

She's rightfully upset when all the Northmen choose to ignore the fact that she literally saved them. Dany brought her dragons, saved Jon's life multiple times, and brought a massive army. She did literally save their fucking lives. No, she wasn't the only one to fight, nor was she the only reason they won, and she doesn't think that.

As for the slaves, she doesn't liberate them out of a hero's complex, she does it because slavery is a horrifying institution and she had power. People who have power should feel an obligation to do good with it; Dany does. She chose to put aside her conquest for the Iron Throne for the slaves.

Rhaegar didn't start the war, nor did he do it for the prophecy. Again, I don't know where you or any of Rhaegar's antis got that. Rhaegar ran away with Lyanna because of a mutual love. GRRM literally calls Rhaegar "a love struck prince"; meaning he isn't really thinking clearly.

As for the prophecy, yes, Rhaegar knew about it; but we have textual evidence that he believes Aegon is the Prnce that was Promised. He literally tells Elia when Aegon is born that, "His will be the Song of Ice and Fire." Yeah, he said there needed to be a third child, but why logically wouldn't he choose to have a third child with Elia? Well because he's not thinking logically, he's "lovestruck", and because he didn't run away with Lyanna for a child.

No, GRRM didn't make the Targaryen conquest to reflect foreign invasion or colonization. They're literally a Westerosi house, they came to Westeros centuries before the conquest happened. It's literally a different concept all together, why is that so hard to understand?

Literally none of Dany's fans believe that she "deserves all the credit" for fighting the Others. We just want her to get the credit she deserves, which is that she saved the Northmen's lives and without her they would have failed. These are all just facts in the show. As for the books, we know she'll play a large role in fighting the Others because GRRM makes it pretty fucking clear.

[xceallachye]

'Its a ruler's responsibility to care for the people'

She never cared for those people, the whole slave liberation program only came to be because she was refused the army she needed to 'go back home' ie get her ancestral chair back

Her entire quest consists of a repeating cycle

1. Arrive in a slavers bay city

2. Disturb the city's internal structure and economy

3. Oh no people are starving/there's a revolte going around/her rule in any way shape or form questioned

4. Leave the city to its fate while gracefully leaving behind a small number of soldiers ruled over people with zero militaristic or political training

And repeat

[pessimisticpigeonsworld]

Bro what the fuck did you watch/read? Because it sure as shit wasn't GOT/ASOIAF.

I think you're talking about how Dany wasn't planning on her slave campaign until after she left Qarth. Which yeah, you're right about that, but that doesn't change her actions earlier in the series. In other words: in AGOT/season 1, Dany had already expressed her hatred of slavery.

Not only was she sold as a bridal slave, but she tried to protect the women Drogo enslaved at her own risk. She literally could have been killed for standing against Drogo and his men, but she did it anyway for their sake. From the beginning, Dany has always been kind hearted and focused on helping those who need her.

As for that bullshit "cycle" of yours; how the flying fuck are you supposed to remove a centuries old institution from a city without destabilizing the economy?? Like seriously, these cities have been built on slavery for their entire existence. It's an integral part to the economy, but does that mean slavery should continue? Like what the fuck kind of argument is that??

Also I know you're definitely talking about the show when you're talking about revolt/leaving the city. The show is total fucking bullshit and completely disloyal to GRRM's characters and story, especially concerning Dany. So I'm not even going to bother arguing about events in the show. Although both in Astapor and Yunkai, Dany didn't rule and there were no riots against her, so it's definitely not a cycle.

In the book, which I highly doubt you've read, Dany not only took the time to set up a new government in Astapor, but she was adored in Meereen, with the exception of the slavers. In Yunkai and Astapor, when the slavers take over again, the slaves cry out for her to return and save them.

At the end of ADWD when Dany is stranded in the Dothraki Sea, there's literal rioting in Meereen over where she is. Dany's people love her dearly, and all the slaves of Essos by ADWD want her to come to them. When Tyrion is in Volantis, the slaves literally beg him to tell Dany that they are waiting.

Do you know why Dany hasn't gotten to Westeros? Or the rest of Essos for that matter? It's because Dany saw that Astapor and Yunkai had fallen back into slavery so she chose to stay in Meereen to ensure it doesn't happen there.

She was left to deal with the fact that the slavers literally burned and salted their own fields to try to keep her away. She had to plant new crops, deal with a plague, refugees from Astapor, and the Sons of the Harpy literally murdering freedmen in the streets.

She was forced to make compromise after comprise in the name of peace, until slavery was literally being allowed right outside her gates. That's why her choosing "Fire and Blood" at the end of ADWD is such a big deal. Dany has decided that peace with slavers isn't good enough. Slavery is one of the most disgusting and abominable practice in history. Some things should be eradicated, not compromised with to hell. Slavery is one of those things.

Trying to blame Dany for trying to fight against slavery when literally all the other characters are dismissive is fucking batshit. Like literally what the fuck dude?

[pessimisticpigeonsworld]

I feel like the people who are obsessed with the idea that Dany will inevitably become crazy and evil are the same people who always headcanon that Jason Todd is the "dumb/violent Robin". Both are classist takes and are supported only by shitty writing and illiteracy.

[pessimisticpigeonsworld]

I don't understand why Elia stans are always so offended that people like Lyanna or that she's "more popular". Like these people are the same ones who spout the same feminist bs like "we shouldn't pit women against each other🥺." While forcing a massive competition between Elia and Lyanna.

I don't know any Lyanna stans who shit on Elia or say she deserved to die. I have seen almost every Elia stan hardcore hate Lyanna. Whether it's for "stealing Rhaegar" or starting Robert's rebellion, Lyanna is demonized constantly by that part of the fandom. Meanwhile the same part bitches and moans about how unappreciated Elia is and how unfairly the fandom treats her. Something I have yet to see btw.

Of course Lyanna is going to be popular and well liked, of course she's going to be talked about more often. She's a vital character to the ASOIAF story, despite being long dead. She also stands out by being non-conforming and willful.

We know so much about her character: her personality and values are very plainly portrayed in Ned's thoughts and Bran's visions. Lyanna is a character we the readers have come to know very well and her presence is felt in most of the primary characters' stories.

Elia simply isn't as fleshed out or central to the story as Lyanna is. Yes, of course she's still important and good. We just don't know her as well. We're told very little about her and I don't think that's going to change now that Oberyn is dead and Doran is pretty close behind.

I'm not saying she's a bad character or anything like that, she's just more of a side character than Lyanna is. Her primary contribution in the story is to show the Lannisters' (and Robert's) brutality and injustice and to be Rhaegar's wife/Aegon and Rhaenys' mother. That's just how it is.

Yes, it would be great to know more about her and it's a massive tragedy and injustice what happened to her and her children. However, expecting her, a side character who's kept relatively obscure by the books, to be equally or more popular than one of the most important characters from the preASOIAF time is ridiculous.

[pessimisticpigeonsworld]

Something I can't get over in this fandom is how Dany is hated and demonized for not being attracted to a man. Specifically I'm talking about Quentyn Martell.

Now, I don't hate Quentyn or the Martells, just some of their stans. However, I think it's pretty wild how a woman is being hated for not immediately falling in love with a man who came to her expecting marriage.

Like, not only is Dany literally about to marry another man for the sake of her people, but she is also in the middle of trying to reform a society built on centuries of slavery. My girl has a fucking million things that are more important at the moment than another suitor. She has made her priorities clear; Quentyn and Westeros are just not very high on that list.

I feel like it's really common joke on the internet to joke about men who act entitled to a woman. I think that's why this is so baffling to me. Dany is literally a queen, she has the right and ability to marry whom she chooses, and we the readers should want her to have that freedom. She's already been forced to marry twice, why are we wanting her to marry a stranger based on a pact no one else even knows about?

I'm not even going to waste time refuting the argument that Dany was being racist. Just thinking about that makes me want to roll my eyes out of my head. It's one of the dumbest and most malicious misreadings of a book I've seen.

[dberl]

To me, it seems like the choice to make Quentyn a POV character was done explicitly to play with the reader's inclination to imagine that every POV character is on some sort of Heroes Journey. Quentyn is a nice, earnest young man with a Big Mission he needs to accomplish. He's pursuing this mission for the sake of his family and his country and also because he believes it's his destiny (what this the marriage pact and all of that.) These are all ingredients that tend to make for a proper heroic arc, so when Dany rejects him (quite courteously if I remember correctly) Quentyn, and I think many readers who sympathized with him, read it as merely a mid story complication that needs to be overcome with perseverance and ingenuity. Worse, since Dany is the force standing in the way of this particular hero's journey, they may even read her as the antagonist.

The end of Quentyn's story puts the lie to that of course. When all else seems lost, he tries his luck with taming a Dragon. After all, he's the hero, right? It's his destiny to succeed... he need only try! And he does have that little bit of dragon blood in him after all...

It's about the seductive power of thinking of yourself as the protagonist. Quentyn certainly believed that up until the very last moment when it all became clear to him. I'm surprised so many readers didn't get the point.

[pessimisticpigeonsworld]

I've noticed an uptick in pro-Mirri posts lately and it really just shows how unwilling this fandom is to extend any grace to Dany. Like people will jump through all these hoops and do so much mental gymnastics to justify a woman who forced an miscarriage on a 14 year old. But everything Dany does is scrutinized to hell and always painted in an absurdly bad light.

Like I do think Mirri is to be sympathized with obviously, but not to the extent Dany antis do. I literally saw someone compare her choice to kill Rhaego to killing baby Hitler. Now that's an interesting comparison, and it's really not the same at all.

Dany suffered rather similarly to Mirri, but she is never given any understanding for her actions. All her actions are twisted and her inherent goodness and kindness are ignored in favor of painting her as mad or monstrous.

The hypocrisy and blatant two-facedness just really shows how baseless the Dany hate is.

[thelustybraavosimaid]

I know, I know. Some of you will just be pissed off by this, as you are by everything I announce here that is not about Westeros or THE WINDS OF WINTER. You have given up on me, or on the book. I will never finish WINDS, If I do, I will never finish A DREAM OF SPRING. If I do, it won’t be any good. I ought to get some other writer to pinch hit for me… I am going to die soon anyway, because I am so old. I lost all interest in A Song of Ice and Fire decades ago. I don’t give a shit about writing any longer, I just sit around and spend my money. I edit the Wild Cards books too, but you hate Wild Cards. You may hate everything else I have ever written, the Hugo-winners and Hugo-losers, “A Song for Lya” and DYING OF THE LIGHT, “Sandkings” and BEAUTY AND THE BEAST, “This Tower of Ashes” and “The Stone City,” OLD MARS and OLD VENUS and ROGUES and WARRIORS and DANGEROUS WOMEN and all the other anthologies I edited with my friend Gardner Dozois, You don’t care about any of those, I know. You don’t care about anything but WINDS OF WINTER. You’ve told me so often enough). Thing is, I do care about them. And I care about Westeros and WINDS as well. The Starks and Lannisters and Targaryens, Tyrion and Asha, Dany and Daenerys, the dragons and the direwolves, I care about them all. More than you can ever imagine.

[Source]