Do you really think Yue Qingyuan wanted Shen Qingqiu to forgive him or not
(First off, hi. Thank you for letting me write another post that ate up over an hour of my life.)
I think when I first read the book, my answer would be no.
But I think after another read and generally being a freak about taking notes, my answer is a more complicated... "Yeah, but not in the way that it might be considered forgiveness".
Because rather than forgiveness, SVSSS and MTXTX in general have a lot more to say about debt.
"Forgiveness" by itself can often have an implication of the person doing the forgiving conveying feelings of "it's ok you didn't do anything wrong" or "you don't need to feel bad about this anymore", and I do agree with the consensus that YQY will never ever believe this, even if his confinement hadn't been the result of his recklessness.
(Imo, he's got a common mindset of abuse survivors, where he rationalizes trauma by believing he has control over situations. Not in a yandere power trip way, but in a "I tried to save Shiwu, ergo it's all my fault that SJ got sold" instead of the truth, "it's QLJ's fault for being an evil bastard". The idea that you're simply a victim of bad luck in life, and thus can never guarantee you're fully safe from all harm ever again, is horrible to grapple with; it's easier for a mind to believe that if they'd just done one thing different, if they'd said the right thing, maybe what happened would have hurt less. This also makes him a good contrast to SJ's stance of refusing to take responsibility for his own actions, and even echoes LBH who also works under this mentality too.)
Does YQY consider himself as unforgivable for Xuan Su and the caves? Absolutely! After all, why should he be pitied or forgiven for his own mistakes? The only time he ever offloads blame is when he says no adult listened to him begging and screaming for help -- and even that is already being couched inside a bigger apology for his actions! So it reads as him saying even that's still kinda his fault! My guy!!
THAT BEING SAID... I don't agree with the idea that YQY also wants to be hated and punished by SJ for this forever either. he ain't catholic cmon
I think what he always wants and actively strives for is redemption.
Not in the religious sense, but in the sense that he owes a life debt:
One that can only be decided is fulfilled by the person who is owed:
I won't repeat myself at length but tldr, I do think YQY could've explained himself to SJ eventually -- but he never got the chance because SJ entered the convo with bad faith. The words "Shen Jiu fired first" and "and then delivered the final, ringing blow" are to me very damning that SJ's own trauma and resulting hostility ironically kill the chance at a better reunion than he so desperately needed. 🙃
(I'm not saying "it's all his fault!1!!", because frankly there is no one to blame entirely. They're literally teenagers going through an unbelievably horrible life and can only react as such. But narratively from how the scene is framed, I do think there is an argument to be made that SJ's assumptions and resulting anger squash YQY's evident joy and put him on the backfoot of an already difficult confrontation, setting SJ's downfall into motion.)
So why is any of that important? Because it means YQY ends up in a place where he doesn't know what to say that will make SJ happy that isn't a useless apology or sound like he's begging for pity. Meanwhile, SJ actively avoids him and won't ask for clarification on anything either, even when YQY's in distress like in the "damn did someone die here wtf" scene.
But what YQY can try is making right by him through his actions and by changing his behavior to be less impulsive. We see how far he bends over backwards to keep both SJ and SY!SQQ safe, how much leeway he gives them and how much he frets over their safety and comfort. He's trying his absolute damndest to prove he's still worth that one moment of loyalty when SJ said he had none left to give.
(It feels reminiscent of Binghe post-Abyss, trying to prove to SQQ that he can make up for his perceived deficiencies by becoming a different person, all so SQQ will consider letting him come home.)
But SJ is working entirely off a scenario that he's made up in his mind that twists his perception. What YQY sees as loyalty and affection, SJ sees as the lies of a guilty conscious. What YQY sees as him reigning in his impulsive nature, SJ sees as doubt and mistrust. Without SJ offering that hand out in reconciliation, YQY is never going to reach for it because that's not his place to do so, leaving them both in limbo. One that only breaks in SVSSS when YQY witnesses how Tianlang-Jun's anger and hurt sprung out of misconceptions of Su Xiyan "betraying" him when in truth she would rather die than harm him or their son, and in the Extra when SJ sees how tired and heartbroken YQY is by the end before trying to save him by chasing him away.
Finally, the thing that really hammers this interpretation in for me is the pair of lines, both from YQY, asking if SJ will ever be okay with being called Xiao-Jiu again + asking to be called Qi-ge just once before he dies:
Neither of these really strikes me as coming from a guy who's thinking "I hope you never let me forget what I've done, and I deserve your hatred forever".
It strikes me as someone who's thinking "I miss you, I want us to be Qi-ge and Xiao-Jiu again even if I have to wait... but you have to be the one make that call because it's your choice."
Lastly, while Shen Yuan is famously not a reliable narrator, he does sometimes cross the line into being a mouthpiece for the story's hard statements, and I do think one comment about YQY near the end of the story is mean to be read exactly as it's stated:
This feels especially impactful from a character who YQY foils, who also cares a great deal about debts and proves how far he'll go to give someone justice when he knows he's wronged them.
Soooooo yeah, my newer take is that, yes, Yue Qingyuan doesn't want to be forgiven in the traditional sense of "forgive and forget". He knows Shen Jiu will never be able to forget what was done to him, as much as he can equally never forgive himself for letting that happen to him in the first place and everything that followed.
But he does seem to very much care about redemption.
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