This and That

[tzigone]

Surviving Alderaanians, refugees, etc.

Do you have any idea how many Alderaanian refugees there might be? Either from EU sources (I pick and choose what I keep) or just extrapolating? Obviously, there will be people off planet. Some of those will be refugees, but others will be people who were "living abroad" who have homes and jobs and aren't in need of any sort of financial aid (though many still traumatized). People like the Thuls wouldn't need aid.

I'm presuming a population of 2 billion for the planet.

This just goes back to Leia and what she inherits and what she does with the wealth she inherits. Obviously, I can just make something up if need be, but I like to hear others' perspectives.

[tzigone]

Looking for song matches

For anyone who likes to match songs to characters/relationships, do you have any suggestions?

First, my ships

Luke/Mara

Jaina/Zekk

Jacen/Tenel Ka (only in a pre-NJO context, so we're talking the teen version)

Wedge/Iella

Songs for individual characters

Luke Skywalker

Leia Organa

Mara Jade

[tzigone]

Was 16 the age of legal adulthood in Legends (pre-NJO, for humans)?

This came up for me because Gavin was said to be that age I thought, and he was a member of Rogue Squadron (and in the New Republic era, not the Rebellion when desperation might be invoked). Also because in Young Jedi Knights Leia said Zekk was old enough he could legally come and go as he pleased.

Obviously, there could be variation planet to planet, but this does seem the rule for Coruscant.

[dagenspear2-blog]

Luke Skywalker Jedi Series Outline Pitch

This is a series outline pitch about Luke's story in this series that would take place after the events of the Original Trilogy and before the events of the Sequel Trilogy. Some of it inspired by elements of Legends and others not. For that, I thank God for, if He will, these ideas:

Luke has been training Leia as a jedi, she's made her lightsaber and has become quite proficient, though her anger can lead her to aggressive tactics in the training. He's also been building out his jedi academy, bringing in padawans and surviving jedi to assist in their training.

Luke and Leia discover who their biological grandparents are and meet them for the first time, along with their aunts and uncles and cousins. Luke is exuberant and happy to meet them, as he's someone who never had much family but now he has so much. In this, her family has old holo-recordings of Padme, that she made for them when she was pregnant, a journal, where she discusses her hopes for her children, fearing that the war they're in won't end, how she doesn't want her children to live their life in war, fearing they may become soldiers, saying her children won't become soldiers.

Afterwards, Luke is approached by a representative of the new republic, who basically offers him and his new Jedi order a seat at the table basically, for this new Jedi to serve the new republic as the old Jedi served theirs. Luke contemplates this, uncertain about the consequences as well as the benefits, what Luke discerns were choices the old Jedi were faced with as well, that the new republic would allow his new Jedi open access to all borders and funding that would be closed off otherwise and thus allow this new Jedi to do the most in assisting people and have the most resources in doing so, the downsides being that this places his new Jedi under the purview and say so of the new republic, at best being expected, if not outright dictated, to act in accordance with the structures and orders of said new republic, and thus this could place on him a potential restraint from taking any action that wouldn't assist the new republic or that could work against it.

Meanwhile, Mara Jade, a second generation elite imperial inquisitor, has sought hunting Luke as a final mission from Palpatine, her having been brainwashed to act on his orders, but in case she were to resist an implant that would basically paralyze her nervous system and kill her, which she doesn't know about yet.

Her and Luke end up in conflict and battle aboard a ship Luke is taking on an investigation given to him by Leia (who has sought out a different lead on the same mission with Han and Lando), the ship is damaged in their fight and crashes, leading them both to be stranded on the planet Wayland together, Luke pulling her out of the wreckage, her realizing they need to work together to survive.

There they come across seemingly hurt old man calling himself a jedi who survived the jedi purge and had been tortured in the labs of Mount Tantiss before escaping, who carries extreme views of what the Jedi should be.

In the midst of this, other imperial remnant forces are seeking out Luke, working with Mara. These forces are led by a bitter and vengeful young man who hates Luke Skywalker specifically. It is revealed that he is the son of an imperial officer who worked on the first death star and he blames Luke for his dad's death, him being a radicalized soldier under the imperial remnants now in pursuit of this revenge.

Luke bonds with Mara, connects to her as she finds herself struggling with her orders to kill him.

Meanwhile, the old man, who calls himself Snoke, offers Luke further training in his power, in pursuit of showing him how the Jedi failed, in that they allowed themselves to be tools of the Senate, instead of taking control of it. Snoke tells Luke that the jedi should've been the ones who ruled and brought order to the galaxy. Luke resists this, pushing back, and outright opposing Snoke when he discovers that Snoke has taken control of a settlement on the planet and controls its people using his powers.

Snoke makes a plan with Mara, who is still operating on the idea that she will follow through with her orders. Snoke gains Mara's trust in assisting her in discovering the chip she has in her, which has led her to perceive the empire has having in some way betrayed her, but it does show her that if she doesn't act out her orders she could die.

The imperial seeking revenge though throws a wrench into everything, as Luke defends the settlement from the imperials and quickly battles and defeats the imperial, leaving him injured. Luke spares him though. The imperial dismisses this, stating that he hates Luke. Luke senses his pain and apologizes for it, not for stopping the death star or rescuing the people it would've destroyed, but that it caused a boy suffering and the loss of his parent, saying that if he'd had his way he'd prefer no one be hurt, giving the imperial medical assistance, telling him to give up his hatred and let it go as it won't serve him, stating that he will stop him if he has to but he'd rather not. Mara is touched and moved by Luke's compassion, and chooses in that moment that she won't kill him, rejecting her orders fully for the first time. The implant activates to kill her though. Leia, having at this point found Luke's location, arrives and she uses a medical kit and her powers to sense where the chip is and extract it.

After that, Mara slips off on her own to contemplate her life and what she wants to do with it, for now.

Snoke is revealed to not be a jedi, but a genetically created creature, imprinted with the memories of various other force sensitives, in some cases specifically those who'd worked Emperor Palpatine, Count Dooku, Maul and even Vader among them. He escapes.

And Luke returns to his Jedi academy, and when asked by the representative to provide his response to the new republic's offer for the jedi to return to being the republic's peacekeepers, Luke says no. The representative is offended and basically tells him that without the republic his new jedi order won't have what it needs to act. Luke states that while that may be, it won't be tainted by the whims of politicians or their interests, they won't become their tools and they won't be coerced into serving them as their army. Luke states that his children won't become soldiers.

Please review and tell me what you think!

[tzigone]

First off, I haven't seen the sequel trilogy. So anything you put in there to be consistent with it will totally go over my head, as I know very little about it, especially the political aspects with the new government (have heard a thing or three about how the OT characters end up). This may make my opinion entirely useless. Sorry.

I like the Luke stuff, mostly. I like him declining to serve the NR, and I like the interaction with the Naberries. I don't really care for the representative being offended or the harsh language at the end - I can get kinda frustrated with how authority figures high up in the NR are so often treated as either useless or unreasonable in the EU - I kinda get wanting to keep our characters "rebels" (and give them more conflict) but it really makes it seem like we, as readers shouldn't even want a New Republic, just to get rid of the Empire, since the NR isn't really good or useful. I'd like the NR to be better than it's predecessor of the end of the Old Republic, just as Luke's Jedi Order is so much better than the one of the Prequel era.

I'm a big Mara fan (at least as originally written). Love that she's included. I'm not big on the Inquisitors in general - I feel like in ANH Vader was the only trained Force-sensitive Imperial worker known to other Imperials. Okay, the last of his dead religion could be more about Jedi-ness, but still. I don't prefer how many trained force wielders run openly run about in the EU (though I completely understand the business reasons for taking that route). This also lacks Mara's belief in her specialness and uniqueness to Palpatine. The personal connection that she felt and how she was deceived in that regard. And while it's great that Luke has grandparents and more people, it's bad that Mara's are gone. Karrde was the loyal employer that Palpatine was not. She cared about him. He was what was worth delaying her order to kill Luke over. Does she have anyone/anything except Luke in your version?

[tzigone]

Do you ever think too much about relative hair color?

Tenel Ka and Mara Jade are both described as having red gold hair (YJK and first Thrawn trilogy, respectively). But Tenel Ka spends a lot of time outdoors, and Mara Jade spends a lot of time in space, so I think of Tenel Ka as having naturally darker hair than Mara's, but it's a bit sunbleached so her sunbleached hair is similar in color to Mara's non-sunbleached.

Now, to compare the relative blondess of folks....

[tzigone]

When was the idea of Winter as Leia's adoptive/foster sister introduced?

I don't remember it from when I read back in the 1990s (I dropped SW stories set in that era after NJO debuted, as I was not a fan), but I could have just read over it or forgotten. Google AI says it was in Heir to the Empire, but I don't recall it there (though Winter was at court, too).

I certainly didn't read everything, even back then, but I don't recall them acting sibling-esque in the books I read. Not like Leia and Luke. In the ones featuring our heroes, Winter was sometimes sadly treated a bit like Chewie was sometimes sadly treated (someone without their own life, completely in service to the main characters of Leia and Han - not that I was ever fond of sending the kids off in to isolation for protection). Of course, Winter got a love interest in the X-Wing titles.

I did look up and see that the person listed as Winter's mom was introduced in ROTS, so wondered if this backstory might have been invented after that.

[tzigone]

Bulletman and electricity

So, I don't really know of how Bulletman's helmet moves him around - comic book science is comic book science, after all. But could he patent the tech and then license it for use in moving turbines at power plants around? Power would still need to be transmitted, infrastructure maintained, etc. and I don't know how much of the end cost to the consumer comes from that.

Also, does this have any potential for flying/hover cars, do you think? The actual mid-century idea of flying cars with as much freedom to move about as our flying heroes kinda terrifies me (I would expect so many accidents), but I feel like someone would want to do it.

[skywalkr-nberrie]

I think it’s weirdly obsessive when Star Wars Twitter dwellers always refer to Anakin as the man Leia “always hated.” as if she never got a chance to meet her real father Anakin whom she would’ve loved and admired to no end. Leia hated VADER but simultaneously Vader wasn’t who Anakin truly was, same way Luke didn’t accept nor see Vader, he only saw the good his father was inside the mask. They’re Padmé Amidala’s kids, the same woman who died loving this same man and believing in his goodness till her last breath. Let’s not play in our own faces.

[tzigone]

I can't really say I agree with either perspective. I don't think Leia, early on, had particular feelings for Vader (beyond those for other Imperials). Even after he tortured her, her attention was much more focused on Tarkin. And when she found out he was her father in ROTJ, her attention was on that she didn't want Luke killed, not on vengeance against Vader or prioritizing him being taken out. Obviously, the EU gives us more chance to see how she feels, but in the movies, Vader just wasn't that important to her. He was another representative of the cruelties of the Empire. Certainly evil, but not special. In the movies, she presumably hates him, but he doesn't live rent-free in her mind, dominating her thoughts or taking priority over bigger threats.

And I think it's a huge disservice to Luke to say he didn't see or accept Vader. It totally weakens his character and makes him look blind (Padme, too, of course, though she was created later and feels that way because Luke did, from a meta perspective). It also weakens how he treated others who done bad things or fallen to the Dark Side in the (Legends) EU. Luke wasn't blind to the evil Vader did - he just still believed their was good in him despite the evil. That it wasn't totally gone. That he had conflicted feelings and could choose to be good again. It's a much more powerful message, and it's not denying reality, either. It's instead saying that doesn't have to be Vader's reality forever more.

[tzigone]

Chewie and my headcanony-fic idea

Been thinking about Chewie and Han and relationship dynamics.

I actually really hate how sidekicks don't have lives while main characters get to have them. How the exist only to serve the main characters. This is especially prevalent in fiction set in the past when the "best friend" is a servant (even when they are ostensibly main characters, too, not sidekicks), but we see the employer's family, the employer's friends, the employer's emotional difficulties and passions and goals and the servant has no goals but to help their employer. Sure, they are sidekicks, but they don't know they are sidekicks, so they should want things, too.

For me, it is very bothersome that (in Legends) Han is there with his wife and raising his kids and Chewie is ...with Han and raising Han's kids while his own wife and son are far away. Sucks for Chewie. And if he'd rather be with Han than his own family, that sucks for his family.

To that end, my current idea is simply to change things up. As I've said, my headcanon version treats only the first six movies as canon, with all other details/characters up for grabs. There are lot of Legends characters I want to use, but details will change. So here, I change the timeline. Chewie has got got a couple centuries left. So I'm thinking to have him spend him time with Han for a while until when the twins are 10 or so, Chewie and Mallatobuck get involved (I kinda have a new backstory, so they'd only meet then, when she was on a temporary contract to Coruscant). He falls in love and they move back to Kashyyyk to marry and start a family (have Lumpy).

The other factor is the life debt. I'm going to ditch it. I suspect a lot of people won't like it, since that is so ingrained, but it's distasteful to me. It sets up an inherit inequality that Chewie will always owe Han (made much worse in versions where even his death does end it and his younger relatives take up the same debt), and they will never be equals. That Han will always be a priority for him over other things/people in his life, but the same is not true for Han to Chewie. It's kind of a socially/culturally enforced version of pseudo-indentured-servitude (can't be sold, so won't call it slavery). I think the relationship works better if they are just friends who both care about each other. And if it's a two-way street.

[tzigone]

Anyone seen any Fawcett comics fanfic set mid-century?

Mid twentieth century, of course. I was curious as to if anyone had seen any Fawcett-verse (as opposed to DC verse) fanfic set in the past. I was thinking 1940s, as that's when the bulk of the comics were published, but 1950s or 1960s would be welcome, too.

[tzigone]

Did we ever get an explanation for Mara's on/off Force sensitivity?

Back in the first Thrawn trilogy, it was a thing that Mara's ability to connect to the Force had gone away after the Emperor's death and only sporadically re-appeared.

Did we ever get an explanation why that happened? Trauma, mental block by Palpatine, something Isard did, etc? I haven't read nearly all the Legends material, and if it was explained, I either missed it or don't remember.

[background-mandalorian-98]

i really never understood the arguments about the presence of other Jedi in the galaxy somehow lessening or effecting Luke reaching out to Vader/Vader turning against the Emperor in Return of the Jedi.

a major part of Vader's turn in RotJ is the fact that he has a personal connection to Luke, so this automatically rules out Jedi like Kanan, Ezra, and Cal from being able to turn Vader. Vader wants a connection with his son, he wouldn't be fazed by a random Jedi showing up who showed him the same kind of compassion that Luke showed him. if anything, he'd consider it a weakness.

that means the only other people who could turn Vader, if that personal connection is required, are Obi-Wan and Ahsoka (maybe Yoda, i don't think that Anakin and Yoda were close enough for that personal connection to influence Vader, but it's a possibility!) both Obi-Wan and Ahsoka knew Vader before he turned fully, and we know from the Kenobi show and Rebels that Vader hates them for that. Vader hates the parts of himself that were Anakin Skywalker or remind him of Anakin Skywalker, so by extension, he hates Obi-Wan and Ahsoka. neither of them would be able to reach the man beneath that kind of externalized and internalized hatred.

but from Vader's perspective, Luke never knew Anakin Skywalker. he's only known the machine that spreads fear and oppression across the galaxy. so when Luke is screaming for his father to help him, he's not screaming for who Vader once was, he's screaming for who Vader is now. the fact that Luke has accepted both that Vader is too far gone and yet still reaches out for his father's help is what pushed Vader into turning against the Emperor. no other Jedi would be able to do that because no other Jedi is Vader's son.

[tzigone]

I think the problem with other Jedi is that ...there aren't supposed to be other Jedi, according to the original trilogy. At least no ones doing anything (they'd have to be like Yoda and Obi-Wan hiding away and doing fuckall (waiting for the twins to grow up - I guess you can tell I don't think it was the best look for them) for the duration, which is what was implied by those movies before new stories). Having other Jedi present is contrary to the narrative (and comments by Obi-Wan and Yoda). It just screws it up entirely, IMO. "Return of the Jedi" doesn't exactly work so well if there have been Jedi around (and fighting) the entire time - they can't return if they never left.

I don't think other Jedi could have successfully reached out to Vader, but I don't think it was ever in Yoda and Obi-Wan's plans for Luke to reach out to Vader. He was supposed to kill him. Turning him back to the light was all Luke.

That brings me to the other point - Luke needs to be the only Jedi left. We need a new Jedi way of people who don't think the fallen are a lost cause (which is how it's presented in the movies, mostly, though I know there are many, many redeemed in the EU continuities), who don't eschew attachment, etc. And it works far better to me (obviously, others will disagree) if that it's Luke. Not if all the other survivors had already learned those lessons and put them into practice. It was important that the venerable old masters were wrong, and Luke was right. If they weren't representative of the opinions held by remaining Jedi, it loses some oomph.

Also, if there are other survivors, they are bound to have more training than Luke, so he cannot be the new teacher passing on what he's learned. He has to still be a student, a more junior position to those Jedi have so much more experience. Completely throws the "hero's journey" off track and is far less satisfying ending for Luke to me. But I admit, I prioritize the movies far above the other media keeping the narrative/messaging of the movies is of primary importance to me. I know there are continuity issues even within the OT, so I'm not kidding myself on that. But anything that even contradicts the general "vibe" (even if not in specific details) is just a no-go for me.

[tzigone]

It irks me - Luke, the boy who looks like Anakin

Okay, I have a weakness for time travel fix-it stories, so I end up reading several in a row. And when you do that with any genre, you see tropes/themes/etc. repeated.

But I'm getting really annoyed with fics where post-ROTJ Luke is in the past and Anakin thinks of him as a boy. He's older than Anakin. More than that, he absolutely looks older than Anakin to me (no shocker, given actors' ages and that people my age will code Luke's ROTJ hairsyle as a not-a-young-guy's). Luke's a man, let him be perceived as such.

The other is present in all manner of fics involving people who knew Anakin - that Luke is the the spitting image of Anakin. He isn't. Same with Leia and Padmé. Though I think there's more resemblance between Luke and Anakin, it's still not a great deal.

[tzigone]

Luke's demeanor/personality/way of speaking in ROTJ

I'd previously mentioned how I thought it would be interesting to see how Han (during or just post ROTJ) reacted to the difference in Luke from when he last saw him.

I've thought about Luke's more formal way of speaking, sometimes under-reacting emotionally and such.

The thing is that for a large part of ROTJ, Luke is, himself, performing. His speech to Jabba is certainly rehearsed/scripted. The one one for Vader and the Emperor has to be at least somewhat planned. Even on the bridge with Leia, it was definitely not "off the cuff." Though one could argue planning more its own change.

The conversation with Yoda is more "natural" - less structured/planned. And with Obi-Wan (Luke wasn't exactly fond of the "certain point of view" defense).

Anyway, I was just curious as to the degree others think his long-term speech patterns (and demeanor, but I was really thinking of of his way speaking, slang, etc.) change before and after ESB, and how they are in the years following ROTJ, etc.

[tzigone]

Padmé's parents knowing about her child surviving - fanficcy idea

I was thinking of a headcanon universe where only the first six movies are canon, but elements from other works are incorporated. I know this isn't how it went in published works.

The idea was that her family would have Padmé's body. Any sort of examination would show she was not carrying a child then. Bail Organa is left with the task of telling them they have to make it look like she is. He tells her the child was Jedi's and even the younglings have been murdered and the boy has to be hidden away for safety (and no, they can't take him and disappear because they are too easily found, since the Emperor knew about the pregnancy/father).

Now, her parents begrudingly accept this, being away from their grandson to save his life. Sola knows too, but her children are children and are not told.

Later, they find out Bail has a daughter the right age, and at least one of them wonders if he lied about the child's sex and she is Padmé's. But Pooja ends up at least adjacent to the Rebellion, and, while she's never in the same place as Luke Skywalker, does hear about him. She knows his name, that he carries a lightsaber and is the son of a Jedi. And her family hears this and thinks this is Padmé's son. They still don't tell the younger ones at this time.

But then the Emperor is dead. And they tell the grandkids the truth. And when the opportunity arises either the current queen or Pooja makes an overture to the Rebellion (Leia or Luke, probably) that Padmé Amidala's parents would really like to meet Luke Skywalker and that it would mean so much to them. But whoever they are talking to has to no idea that they are these are Luke's grandparents, so doesn't get the emotional implications. But the one who asks presumes Luke knows who his mother was. And we go through the emotional-mismatch as they each finally figure out what exactly is going on here.

[tzigone]

Inheritance and Alderaan

So I was thinking about how rich Leia is, in the immediate aftermath of Alderaan's destruction and her being the only heir to her parents and possibly other realtives. It depends on how much the GFFA is like Earth. The very wealthy often have assets in multiple countries. This seems like it would be even more likely in the GFFA, where Alderaan would be a small drop in the Galactic economy/stock market.

The same seems true for Winter and Tycho, both of whom come from wealthy families. Of course, all three are committing treason, so the Empire may confiscate their assets. Though we know the Rebellion/Alliance has multiple star systems aligned with them, so money could be invested there. Of course, after they inherit riches (if they do), they may be funding Rebellion or refugees.

Then there's Luke and Leia and the Naberries. They are another rich family (that lake house). If their grandparents are still alive and they meet, they may choose to leave them what would have been Padme's (and maybe what they did inherit from Padme immediately). Of course, Luke and Leia'd hope they'd not die soon.

[tzigone]

Ewok alcohol

You know, I've read several ROTJ-fics set at the party at the end. Some say the drinks are very strong. One had Han call them root beer.

Based on their technology level, I'd say they have fermenting, but not distilling. And, without industrial processes and quality control, I'd expect the quality of beverages to be highly variable.

Maybe the some of those who came down to party brought their own alcohol to share out. I hope our crew warned them about eating any meat.