The Moonflower Garden @unchainedheartless - Tumblr Blog

The vibe I had for dinner: Gordon Ramsay's method for scrambling eggs plus Kraft Mac and cheese.

Somewhere, a culinary demon is sobbing

#shitpost #culinary sins #gordon ramsay #eggs?#scrambled #kraft?#mac'ed

The sources are from square enix, not a third party. It’s clear you are just going to keep changing the goalpost. Soriku wasn’t even the main focus of the post but you still got upset by it. If you prefer soriku good for you but I prefer sokai and I always have. Accuse me of being “surface level” all you want. It’s clear your entire argument is just calling me dumb and a “cishet”(I am not “het”. Bisexuals are real thanks) bigot so this conversation is over

Dude I don't even get what you're talking about with moving the goal post. Yeah I prefer Soriku. My main thing was a rebuttal both to your assertion that it's one of the few good, positive heterosexual relationships and dissecting why exactly it didn't seem to be optimal in my eyes either. My main argument wasn't even about Soriku per se, just bringing it up by comparison a few times. And you still didn't answer what exactly you were talking about when you said Soriku shippers take away from Kairi's accomplishments. Do you even have an example? Because maybe I do also have a misconception that can be rectified, like with the paopu fruit thing.

Like if in all the years and ages of media, where LGBT was often blatantly taboo, you're saying Sokai is one of the few positive ones, I don't know what to tell you man. And I never called you a bigot? I got the vibes from your original post based on everything else and especially the whole "no good hetero representation" argument. Like yeah do you be bi idc. I can still critique your takes without accusing you of anything. I mean fuck I have the agender flag in my pfp and asexual and aromantic in my bio I'm pretty sure, if you wanna talk about erasure. I don't give a shit about your sexuality, bi or otherwise, just your take. I only said in my first reblog you sounded unfriendly to the community with your argument about very little good hetero representation. Very reminiscent of "too much gay stuff let's have a straight parade" sorts of folks. And I said nothing about you being bi or being bigoted after that, so I'm not quite sure why you're crashing out this hard unless it's just that you're not liking the discourse on your public post made on a platform specifically for discourse.

It's clear that you have no interest in having a good faith discussion if this is your reaction. If you looked at my critique of your take and decided I was calling you dumb, then I'm sorry you took offense. But genuinely taking me saying a take is surface level and you twisting it into "accusing" you yourself as being surface level, proves, at least to me, that your argument is in bad faith. At best, you're sensitive and take critique on your post as a personal affront. At worst, you're intentionally twisting it as a way to be right in your own mind. Because rather than meet any of my discourse or even answer a genuine question head on you slink into my inbox as an anonymous question in some paltry attempt to what? Make me feel bad? Make me upset? Idk what you want man.

I am still interested in what way Soriku shippers take away Kairi's accomplishments though.

But yeah I didn't intent to call you cishet. I saw you were bi. I meant the argument sounded like that sort of take and that's on me for not wording it well.

#lgbtq #kingdom hearts #sokai #soriku #discourse

“The majority of romance movies are heterosexual. You want straight romance, then go look for it. “ have you considered people like her just don’t like those movies and how they portray it, and that they prefer something like sokai?

Yeah, but that wasn't the point I was making. She said that Sokai is one of the only sweet, positive portrayals of straight romance. That's just blatantly false. I'm not saying that's her preferred genre, just that in all of the years of media across the ages where heteronormativity reigns supreme, there's so few good straight romances that Sokai is "one of the few?"

And my issue isn't the ship either. It's just that canon Sokai is your ideal hetero relationship? Really? The girl who's constantly sidelined in the story? Yeah he sacrifices himself for her multiple times but he barely interacts with her outside of danger or that he's literally dying and only has one chance to rekindle his friendship with her. It's his personality to be protective of the people he cares about, not explicitly romantic. He screams in anguish when he witnesses Will be killed and literally jumps on top of Davey Jones, but I doubt he had feelings for Will either.

My point was more that as written, Sokai is a poor example of being "the best pure, non-toxic heterosexual relationship." Because they're not even explicitly romantically involved either, beyond all the points I already made. It's not my job to find this random person straight representation they like. But to assert that Sokai is one of the few positive ones? Really? That's why I comment that they're ordering a burger in a chipotle. You don't go to progressive media and expect to find heterosexuality. Maybe you'll wander into a Carl's Jr. Green Burrito combo, but you shouldn't expect that going in.

If one can find so few heterosexual relationships that Sokai is "one of the few good ones" I'm forced to assume this person is watching more progressive media and only seeing gay stuff, just given the wording of the post anyhow.

And that's not even touching on the whole censorship take at the beginning of the original post that's completely rancid either. But that one's not my strong suit so I'll have to refer you to the comment on the other post for that rebuttal.

#lgbtq #kingdom hearts #soriku #sokai #discourse #media illiteracy

idiotidiotidiotidiotidodddd

These porn freaks need to stay in their own little corners of the internet and stop infesting fandoms based on children's properties like KH and LoZ. Being attracted to the characters is one thing, pairing characters with others is also one thing, substituting canon with porn fantasy is where a line has to be drawn. Link isn't some pussy magnet, you could probably count on one hand the amount of people attracted to him in all of the games on one hand. Likewise with KH, Sora did not cheat with Ariel, Rapunzel, etc. and will not cheat with Strellitzia! He will never get a Disney Princess harem, the Princesses aren't cheaters or pedophiles.

"Being attracted to the characters is one thing, pairing characters with others is also one thing, substituting canon with porn fantasy is where a line has to be drawn"

Don't even get me started on the Sora harem and "Sora should date Strelitzia in KH4!" brainrot. I wasn't even aware of half of it, like the disney princess shipping, until a friend told me about it. I have no idea when this trend started of trying to make every single protagonist into a harem anime protag (because this was nowhere near as prevalent of a thing in my KH13 forum days from what I can remember) but I am beyond done with it. It especially makes no sense with Sora because like... Sora? That Sora?? Sweet disney boy Sora???

I can far more easily believe Sora and Riku are a thing than that. I recognize Strelitzia's reveal is the only trailer we have rn, but like I said in an earlier crash out post, do people seriously think Sora would just go back on everything he said and did in KH3's ending like that?

I'll personally never understand the desire to take two of the only sweet, positive and loving straight relationships in fiction and turn them into the kind of toxic and awful situation you see on tv all the time.

The only way I understood a friend explain it to me, is people are bitter that they will never have that kind of love for themselves. Or they don't think it can be real.

But it can be. My partner and I have been together since 2014, and never, not once, did we feel the need to go chase somebody else. We don't need anyone else, because we already have each other.

unchainedheartless

This is mostly just a response to the last part about how Sora and Kairi are one of the only positive straight relationships. To each their own on headcanons and shipping, and that's not what I'm critiquing.

No one tell op that the majority of the Sokai fodder is due to the localization and not actually present to nearly this extent in the original Japanese. Like I think op misses the point of Kairi's character and the emphasis of Sora spending time with her in the end.

Sora will sacrifice himself for all of his friends, especially his two closest ones. That's who Sora is, not a romance thing. And a huge part of Kairi is that she's actively being left behind and forgotten throughout the story. Sure finding her was a big part of kh1, but Sora immediately sidelined her. Then she spent the entirety of com and days on Destiny Islands, trying to remember who he is. The only reason she's even present in kh2 to the extent she is is because Axel kidnapped her. You'd think if Sora had such feelings about Kairi, he would go check on her at least once prior to learning that she's actually in danger again. And again, when they actually reunite, it's like Sora doesn't know how to engage with her, and it's awkward. Like everyone definitely talks about how Sora dropped to his knees for Riku and sobbed, but it's just so hilariously disproportionate to his reunion to Kairi, like when you're a kid and made to hug a distant relative you haven't seen in years.

Like Kairi's whole character is that she is left behind and sidelined constantly. Her original two fears are change and being left behind. Riku wants to grow up too fast, Sora's balanced, Kairi doesn't want to grow up. (Hence her body being found in Neverland btw.) Like by kh3 her only recourse to not being left behind is to jump headlong into the unknowns of being a keyblade wielder and having to save the world. That's the point of her character. Her best friends are outgrowing her and she's being left behind. I think to an extent Sokai not only misses the point of her character but also does her disservice. It boils her down to only being the love interest and obliterates the only nuance she gets in the games.

As for why Sora spends the last day with her, it's because over the course of kh3 he realizes that he's let his friendship with Kairi stagnate. It's literally his last chance to spend time with her. It's not because of any romantic feelings per se, just that he's trying to revive his connection to who was previously one of his closest friends.

Like beyond dialogue, not much else actually substantiates Sokai. The Japanese voice actors even said that they recorded a version of the paopu fruit scene where Sora didn't accept it. The act was purely symbolic and called back to their cave drawing, and likely didn't really seal the "ritual" (I'm not sure what you'd call it really) as described. It's said when you share *one* paopu fruit, your destinies intertwine. You share one, not exchange them. I'm not sure but that seems an important distinction too.

Other people can say it ad nauseam with the localization team, but here's one of the most glaring examples that directly harms Kairi's character and makes her accomplishments about Sora:

In KH3, Sora has a line about how he "feels strong with Kairi." In the original Japanese, I believe he's saying how she's gotten stronger. Instead of even just acknowledging Kairi's strength, they basically Ochaco her and make everything about her connection to Sora.

Like I understand headcanons and wanting to ship them, but I just got vibes from this post that aren't exactly pro-lgbt. Maybe I'm wrong. But I just kind of feel like calling them "one of the only heterosexual, nontoxic couples in media" is just so laughably wrong on so many levels. Like no just because there's more lgbt representation doesn't mean there's no heterosexual representation now. And like non-toxic? She literally cuts her hair to be noticed by Sora in the novelization. The manga and novels are secondary canon, meaning unless the games directly contradict them, they're canon. So essentially, that means it's canon that Kairi looked at how Riku cut his hair after kh2 and wondered if Sora prefers short hair. Cutting your hair to be noticed by your love interest/partner does not sound healthy.

Like yeah ship who you want to. Crack ships are funny sometimes, which is likely where shipping the princesses come from. It's also how we got people shipping Elsa and Jack Frost back in the day too. Everyone's allowed their silly little headcanons. Shipping fatigue is also real and I understand that. I don't really care about the arguments between the two camps. I don't even take issue that you're a Sokai shipper. Just how wild and frankly a bit media illiterate the take of "two of the only sweet, positive, and loving straight relationships" is when you're talking about Sora and Kairi as written in Kingdom Hearts canon. I can't speak on the Legend of Zelda personally but I just feel like using them as examples puts the bar extremely low as to what a loving straight relationship looks like. I mean hell, Kristoff and Anna have to be better than Sora and Kairi. I mean even if you mean recent we have Elemental and the parents in Turning Red are really good for each other. Unfortunately I mainly have Disney as an example because I usually watch YouTube, but right now I'm binging the Rookie and Wesley Evers and Angela Lopez are pretty cool together too. (And the show itself has more inclusivity itself, though it seems a bit problematic that beyond one of the main protagonists who has exited the show by season 4 the majority of lgbt representation has always been in the villains so to speak. Like the fact Jackson can be gay and yet they also showcase the only other gay couple so far as severe domestic violence is kinda yikes. I get the it's trying to be progressive but maybe not going about it the best way.)

Like maybe you're just looking in the wrong place bro. You don't walk into a Chipotle and ask for a burger.

idiotidiotidiotidiotidodddd

No one tell op that the majority of the Sokai fodder is due to the localization and not actually present to nearly this extent in the original Japanese.

Damn, that's crazy

It's said when you share one paopu fruit, your destinies intertwine.

Now this is a "mistranslation". It was never "one". The verb used by Riku and Selphie in the original Japanese 食べさせあう specifically describes feeding one another.

And that's exactly what Sora and Kairi do.

vibes from this post that aren't exactly pro-lgbt. Maybe I'm wrong. But I just kind of feel like calling them "one of the only heterosexual, nontoxic couples in media" is just so laughably wrong on so many levels. Like no just because there's more lgbt representation doesn't mean there's no heterosexual representation now

My partner is a bisexual asian man, I am bisexual myself, had two previous lesbian relationships in high school, and I have learnt Japanese since I was 13. If you're trying to ad hominem me as ignorant and homophobic simply because I ship sokai that's quite funny.

I don't even take issue that you're a Sokai shipper.

It kind of seems like you do tbh.

A lot of what you're saying here is your own interpretation and headcanon. Also hilarious you're calling sokai a "crack ship" here.

If you want to talk about Sora kneeling, this comment on reddit put it quite well:

Sora prostrates and grovels on the floor for Kairi. This is an embarrassing thing to do in Japan.

She literally cuts her hair to be noticed by Sora in the novelization. Cutting your hair to be noticed by your love interest/partner does not sound healthy.

.... Are you fr? I know you probably are a kid, but you cannot have much experience in relationships if you genuinely think this. There is nothing "toxic" about this. If I wear a nice dress because I want to for my husband that's "toxic" now? Be serious.

that means it's canon that Kairi looked at how Riku cut his hair after kh2

Not really. That's actually just your headcanon you came up with right now.

The Japanese voice actors even said that they recorded a version of the paopu fruit scene where Sora didn't accept it.

I may have to find that interview again, but from what I read they didn't say he didn't accept it outright in that other version? This is also irrelevant to what version is actually in the game and canon.

In KH3, Sora has a line about how he "feels strong with Kairi."

I think the meaning of this went over your head. She gives him strength on an emotional level. He was not talking about literal physical strength there.

directly harms Kairi's character and makes her accomplishments about Sora

As opposed to Riku's fans who would never take Kairi's actions and feats and make them all about him and give Riku all the credit for them... right?

It boils her down to only being the love interest and obliterates the only nuance she gets in the games.

Being in love doesn't make you lesser as opposed to being an independent girlboss hope it helps. You can in fact both be the love interest/heroine and have nuance!

I just feel like using them as examples puts the bar extremely low

Because it (sadly) is low.

Kristoff and Anna have to be better than Sora and Kairi.

That's just like, your opinion man.

Like maybe you're just looking in the wrong place bro. You don't walk into a Chipotle and ask for a burger.

I am not american, so I wouldn't know what the menu of Chipotle is. But are you sure that's not what you're doing? How will you react if soriku doesn't become canon in the next game?

unchainedheartless

It's not because you ship Sokai. It's the fact you seem to honestly believe that there's no good straight representation in media. Forgive me if I'm out of line, but that's something a lot of the cishet "snowflake" people (as in the folks who shit their pants to see lgbt and call other folks snowflakes) complain about verbatim. Not because you ship Sokai.

I'm not going to argue about Chikai/Don't Think Twice. Lots of folks are divided on that. A lot of people take the translation of "rings the color of dawn" and believe it's Riku. Soriku folks think Don't Think Twice is Sora's half and Riku's is Chikai. It does play during the scene with Kairi.

My question for the first two images is if they're primary sources. Not magazines simply in Japanese, but from the ultimanias or directly from square enix themselves. As for the ones paralleling Sora and Kairi, they're the key art for Melody of Memory, where Kairi is retelling Sora's journey in her own words while Ienzo and the Radiant Garden crew dig about her memories. Seeing Sora is the subject and Kairi is the storyteller, yeah the key art checks out. It doesn't prove or disprove either of our points.

Also Sokai is not a crack ship. I apologize if I made it sound as such. I was dismissing shipping the Disney princesses or making Sora have a harem a crack ship. Not something anyone actually believes has merit but is instead largely doing as a joke. Sokai by definition is not a crack ship. It has real weight and merit.

Now for the paopu thing. I actually was completely unaware that part was a mistranslation. So thank you. It's more evidence the localization team doesn't always get it right.

As for the image you inserted of a reddit thread, it brings up good points, but in my own opinion it does already track with my own point of who Sora is is someone who will do anything to protect his friends. It's just his character. He tried to beat up Davey Jones for killing Will too. Went into a full rage. Over a guy he's arguably not that close to. He'd sacrifice his life for Riku and Kairi. It's just that Kairi is always the one in that position. If he's willing to die obviously he's willing to embarrass himself too. And yeah he obviously has that reaction due to how no one will tell him about Riku (and also Riku totally doesn't even look like himself right now too.) But I think he'd still have a stronger reaction to Kairi than we see if the intention is that he does love her. It's not like his attention was on Riku because to him it was still Ansem.

As for my take about her hair, here's the following passage from the Kingdom Hearts 3 Novelization.

The way I interpret this scene, which can be different from yours, is she's trying to get Sora's attention by cutting her hair. I'm not saying dressing up or wanting to look nice for someone you like is bad. I feel like that may actually be an interpretation made in bad faith. My take from this scene is that Kairi is comparing herself to Riku, the person who I think we can agree at this point is everything on Sora's mind (like legit in KH3 up until this point [this is just after the Caribbean] Sora has been wanting to know about Riku in the RoD.) I'm not saying dressing up for your partner is bad, I'm saying it reads like Kairi is comparing herself to Riku and making lasting changes to her appearance because she's hoping Sora will like it. Her first thought about it literally isn't that she wants to cut her hair, it's remembering Riku cut his and wondering how Sora prefers it.

My point about them recording a scene where he doesn't accept the fruit is that if Sokai was really what the writers were angling for, why record a scene where he doesn't accept it? If he loves her, why wouldn't he do the paopu fruit ritual with her? Remember, these guys literally changed Riku from smiling at Naminé in that sequence at the end just so they didn't think he liked her. (At least that's how I heard it said.) They put thought into literally everything.

The meaning didn't go over my head. I'm talking about how it was turned into Sora's feelings as opposed to how it originally about Kairi's own strength. And I'd like to hear what you're thinking about when you say make Kairi's accomplishments about Riku because I genuinely don't know. My comment about erasing her nuance was more about the way the localization team made what was originally a line about Kairi's own strength about Sora, but yeah it is a bit about how Sokai shippers who go based solely on canon miss that the whole thing about Kairi's character is how Riku and Sora are outgrowing her and she has to jump into the keyblade stuff to stay relevant to their lives. And yes being in a relationship doesn't make you any lesser. I feel as though again this is an argument in bad faith. The point I was making here is not about Kairi being an independent girlboss. In fact, I definitely believe she does, or at least did, have a crush on Sora. It's the fact that it seems unrequited and the fact she is blatantly being left behind that makes her compelling to me despite the fact she gets very little screen time and is barely a character of her own in the games unless you really go digging and analyzing. That's what I mean by obliterating her character. Sokai is surface level, especially if you say it's completely healthy and sweet.

I don't particularly like Kristoff and Anna. I'm just saying he was there for her constantly unlike Sora. Sora was there when it mattered sure, but Kristoff never left Anna feeling adrift and out in the cold. And yeah they're actually in a relationship. It's also an example I grabbed because it's relevant to another Soriku pull so it was on my mind. In the novelization for KH3, Sora compares Anna and Elsa to himself and Riku, but he ponders it deeper, realizing he used to think of Riku as a brother and wondering when/why that changed. So yeah Arendelle was on the mind.

Chipotle serves Mexican food. You walk in, go down the line and pick what you want in your bowl. Rice, beans, meat. More expensive generally and regarded as higher quality than some other fast food. My point being that you go for what you're looking for, not the other way around. The majority of romance movies are heterosexual. You want straight romance, then go look for it. And I wouldn't react poorly to it not being canon. I'm just saying to me Sora and Riku have far more merit than Sora and Kairi, and more compelling too actually. But I'm just saying, the fact the goddamn fairy godmother said Riku had to follow his dreams to find Sora, and Kairi was completely left behind makes them more likely than Kairi considering she's not even going to Quadratum.

#kingdom hearts #sokai #soriku #sora #kairi #kh