Guess about time I make an intro huh
Welcome to Victimcentral, I am Koit I go by it/its and I got an insane Autism when it comes to Milgram that just wont go away!! someone save me !!!!
This is my Milgram specific blog, where I post my own theories and art and also reblog Milgram stuff (outside of fanart)! I guess this is a sort of archive for myself when it comes to Milgram stuff, and only Milgram stuff.
I am personally very interested in talking about the victims in general and is the main reason why I created this account, so expect my posts to be about them mostly, when I get the time outside of my studies of course.
If you want to follow me outside of this acc, my main acc is Coit, where I reblog Milgram fanart anddd all my other cringe interests !! woah yeah cringe warning xp. I still need to work on my intro over there...
Half assed done intro that I will remake another time... just felt like I needed a proper intro :]
I would make such a big post about it but I suck at making big posts, but legit I am so convinced of MILGRAM being a sort of simulation and the prisoners just being AI copies of real people or something like that..... I have a lot of evidence for it from the novels and the reports but also uh im lazy,,,, just saying in retrospect if it gets revealed, I was a day one believer. If im wrong im deleting this post and pretending like that never happened (joke)
My Milgram crack theory is that Shiina isn’t Mahiru’s real last name, but it’s actually her boyfriend’s and she took it before they got married because she was like “well we will get married anyways!!”
Q.07 ミルグラムはなぜお前を呼んだんだと思う？
Q.07 Why do you think MILGRAM called out to you?
別に不思議だと思ってないよ
他の誰でもない
私自身が、私まんを人殺しだと思ってるから
It's not at all surprising
It's not because of anyone else
It's because I, myself, believe I'm a murderer
[Any Translator's Notes will be found in the replies. Check the original post before reblogging as TLs are occasionally revisited and edited.]
went back to rewatch the purge march and if the theory that the presence of facial features on a victim represents how closely the prisoner regarded them, then i think its really telling how we NEVER the face of amane’s victim, let alone their full body. it’s always their hand. it’s almost as if amane’s mind is actively blocking them out or can only remember the harm they caused to her! curious!
"What if Haruka lied about his age to gain sympathy?" "What if Yuno lied about her age just to say that she was "over 18" and she actually is sixteen?" "What if Muu lied about never spilling water on anyone's head?" "What if Kazui lied about not cheating on Hinako?" What if we never trust people with what they said ever? What if people were lying and out to get you all the time??
Some people really do not see Mikoto beyond his disorder. They do not see him beyond "the DID guy with the 'aggressive and dangerous' alter"
How John is still seen as an "evil alter" is beyond me. Yes, the writing touched on that trope. But they did not use the trope as is. That trope was included to show how harmful preconceptions about DID is still perpetrated to individuals and how people with DID can internalize that against their self.
It is a cause and effect thing with the audience. We saw Mikoto's VD + MV. We saw "John's" aggressive behavior and had immediately branded him as "the violent evil alter" without trying to understand why he was even like that in the first place. He was not granted the mercy of being understood during T1. That reaction is something that's been broadcasted to Mikoto's mind. "He has an evil alter" So it has helped his fear against himself grow. "He has an evil alter" so John had leaned into that idea so he can save himself.
John isn't evil. He did not kill for no reason nor did he do that just to make other people suffer. He is aggressive, yes, sometimes violent. That is because he is fighting back against a system that dehumanizes him, devalues him and destroys him. Labelling him as evil again, does not grant him the mercy of understanding. If anything, this only perpetrates the idea that those who retaliate against abuse should be ostracized and suppressed. That he does the things he does is because he is born corrupt, not because he is reacting to his environment.
Again, John's branding as the dangerous alter only makes it harder for Mikoto to accept that part of him. Why would he accept something like that? It only serves to further dissociate him from his anger and his hurt.
"But he killed innocent people" Yes that is a horrible thing to do and you are allowed to think that. That still doesn't make him evil. And there are other prisoners who has taken innocent lives, are they evil too? Again, "evil" robs them the mercy of understanding. If we do not understand them, how are we even fit to judge them.
I have also seen people label him as a "psycho killer" and I hope you realize how discriminatory the implications are. "Psycho", just like "evil alter", is once again putting him in a box, one built in prejudice that is. Because he is some one who has mental disorders and has acted out, he is abnormal, unstable, volatile, dangerous.
And why do we need to be shown his childhood trauma? Why do we need to be shown how his DID has formed? What would that even justify? It is for his crime?? If anything, the abuse and trauma he endured within his workplace has more relevance to his crime.
Once again, we as the audience are pushing those stereotypes onto him. We keep focusing on his disorder and how he presents it, that we forget that Mikoto is meant to be a person of his own. He is not meant to be "DID representation", but a representation of a flawed human being who has been continuously beaten down by those around him.
Yuno starts compensated dating as a coping mechanism for her feelings of depression and isolation. One of her clients enjoys when she acts as a child, having her wear a middle school uniform. He seems to appear to try and meet with her outside their dates, assumingly having genuinely fallen in love with her and mixing up her work self with her real self. Yuno struggles with this, because her innocent, pure work self is an act, and views her real self very negatively, as someone depressing and cold to others.
Yuno becomes more drained and cold in her later dates, either due to her coping mechanism not being a very reliable one, the conflict she's having with this particular client, or because of early symptoms of pregnancy appearing— most likely all three. Yuno eventually takes a pregnancy test and finds out she's pregnant, most likely that specific client's child. He has very literally implanted the embodiment of innocence and childish purity inside of her, and is faced with a choice: to go along with what he wants, to embrace that persona that not only he but others in her life prefer, to repress her colder sides more permanently in order to live the life he wants, one that brings her joy and warmth but also isn't really her, or to go against him, to abort the child and be true to herself, even if that self isn't a version of her is one that makes her life more miserable. She picks the latter.
The means in which she has the abortion aren't fully known, but it's clear that doing so was not only a mentally taxing thing but also a physically painful process. It's likely she either threw herself down some stairs to purposely induce a miscarriage or payed for a shady and most likely unsafe method of abortion. Though the abortion itself is painful, the actual act of removing the fetus and therefore removing that client is potrayed as something freeing for her. In Umbilical we see her fall, only to be saved by the balloon representing her womb, previously filled up and popped, now empty and small as it was to begin with, and she happily floats back to her normal life. In Tear Drop, she actively destroys her comfortable pretty room, as if fighting back against the personas placed on her and enjoying acting out and choosing 'herself'. The abortion was bad, the aftermath was good.
Yuno enters milgram and is again faced with the same problem as before. She tells Es she'll only be happy if her true, colder self is forgiven, but instead she's forgiven under the idea that she's "pure" and "a naive victim" rather than how she perceives herself. She lashes out, forced back into something she just went under alot of pain to be free from, and tells Es exactly who she believes herself to be, again reinstating that she won't feel warmth until her cold self is genuinely accepted. She's once again forgiven, this time her true self has been accepted, but things in milgram become much worse as the other prisoners' lives end. Mahiru's death, in particular, cuts Yuno deep. Yuno has once again chosen to prioritise her cold self and true feelings over the feelings of others, and someone who is seen as wholly pure and innocent has died. There is no relief for Yuno like there was with her abortion, Mahiru is someone she genuinely and greatly cared for, and Yuno can only grieve and feel worse than before. If the acceptance of Yuno's true self is also the death of innocence, then Yuno can only hate herself for being selfish in wanting to be fully accepted.
Okay on a more serious note, since we ill probably get trial 3 Kotoko around 2037, I am curious about your stance on the idea that Kotoko's milgram murder is Lucky (the hat kid). I don't personally believe it, but it is more than likely Kotoko had a second murder outside of Tsugumichi, so it has been on my mind a lot :p
2037........... mannnnn........
I do definitely think Kotoko had another murder outside of Tsugumichi, due to how, weird Deep Cover is, compared to the other 2nd Trial MVs. I lean towards Lucky, but mainly because she is (as of this moment) the only one that really could be Kotoko's second murder.
This will be long haha, first I'll talk why I think Kotoko likely has a second murder, and then why it may make sense for it to be Lucky.
(BTW this is a post I actually have wanted to make so this is really fun for me. I can show off Moon Theory let's gooooo. Thank you for asking!)
What is up with Deep Cover?
Before we get into it all, let's look at the 2nd Trial MVs as a whole. (Though could refer to MVs entirely.)
The MVs tend to be of two settings, the Real World* and Symbolism Hell.
*note the Real World is highly influenced by their perspective so it's not always accurate
Now the Prisoners fall into these Three Categories:
Real World* and Symbolism Hell - Two Seperate State of Beings
This is Yuno, Muu, Amane and Kotoko
Symbolic Real World*
(it's not a clear cut difference between RW* and SH)
This is Haruka and Shidou
Symbolism Hell
This is Fuuta, Mahiru, Kazui and Mikoto
Okay. So why does this matter? Well A) I thought it was neat, and B) this distinction is important to discuss time and place in the MVs.
Real World* Segments take almost exclusively in the past, either pre-murder or during the murder as the final part of the Real World segment.
Symbolism Hell, however, can take place through time and space, reflecting the Prisoners as they are in Milgram, so it's not tied down to a specfifc time or place, even if it can be reflective of it.
Some examples are
Backdraft stops its linear story telling to depict Fuuta feelings about being voted Guilty
"Why are the others INNOCENT? I won't forgive, won't forgive"
in the middle, pre Killcheroy's Death
e.g. not linear
Muu breaking out of her chrysalis inside a broken hourglass is reflective of her time in Milgram
e.g. showing time in Milgram
Mikoto's is a mix of depicting his violence and also interograting the audience
e.g. reflective of Prisoners thoughts
The time and place that I want to discuss is their Murders.
For Haruka and Amane, their MVs end with their murder
For Fuuta, Kazui and Mikoto, after displaying their crime in Symbolism Hell, ends with them sort of addressing the Audience.
For Yuno and Shidou, their crime isn't really depicted, as they depict more their thoughts and feeling about their verdict and crime.
For Muu, she depicts her murder, and then depict her thoughts and feelings in Symbolism Hell.
For many of them, their crime is the final action depicted, or at least, ends the Real* World segment. As after their crime they go to Milgram not too long afterwards.
Even in Haruka's crime, his report ends after his second crime with the second child.
Muu states how she doesn't remember much after she commited her crime.
Though she definitely pushed Rei's body into the river, but perhaps that's part of what she's refencing what she "did"
So it makes sense we barely see anything about them post-murder, pre-Milgram, there wouldn't be a big gap of time.
If we assume Killcheroy is Fuuta's only victim, then perhaps there is maybe at most a couple days for Milgram to decide who did it (choosing Fuuta as opposed to someone else in the group), since we see him reacting to persumably someone's death. Or that he's finding out about Killcheroy's death the same time as Milgram. But regardless it seems to be a short amount of time.
Which brings me to the two I haven't mentioned above.
Mahiru and Kotoko, who's crime is depicted at the very start of the MV.
Now Mahiru is easily explainable. She spends her entire time in Symbolism Hell, giving us context and showing the lead up to the crime. Nothing that odd.
Which is why Deep Cover is so strange. Because Kotoko doesn't just stay in Symbolism Hell, she shows events post her crime and pre her time in Milgram.
THIS v
IS STRANGE ^
Now you could say Milgram was slacking with her, as the final Prisoner. But isn't it weird, that enough time passed after her crime:
For a Press Conference to occur,
For Kaneshiro Isamu (Tsugumichi's father) to have a personal investigation occured.
For Lucky to have given a Testimony that she later withdrew.
And the fact, Kotoko is reading about the Press Conference that details all this after the fact.
These are a lot of events, that presumably would have taken time.
By the by, do you like the Moon?
Deep Cover loves the Moon, so does Harrow.
So hey, let's take a break and look at the Moon. (Meet Moon Theory)
In Harrow, when Kotoko comes across the warehouse, where the crime will eventually take places, her Symbolism Hell has a cresent moon. And then we see her return to that spot, maybe the same day or a day later, it's unclear.
Now, this isn't much. Afterall her Symbolism Hell Pack always has a Cresent Moon throughout the MV. Specifically a Waning Cresent. But I want this kept in mind.
When she murder Tsugumichi, it's the only time her Pack Mind Place changes, instead depicting the Sun (since the crime takes place during the day).
The reason I say this is the Sun, as opposed to a Full Moon, is due to the crime being during the Day (it's daytime at 2:27, but cloudy, hence why it appears dark, we also see it begin to rain while she's inside, implying it those same clouds from earlier) and due to Deep Cover.
In Deep Cover, after she goes through her Roundtable Symbolism Hell, it focuses on the fact that it's a Wanning Cresent.
Which leads me to believe it's meant to be the same Wanning Cresent from Harrow. And that there is a very good chance that the crime took place during the Wanning Cresent Moon Phase.
Also may explain why her Symbolism Hell is the Waning Cresent, because that's the moon she killed Tsugumichi under (even if it was daytime).
But there's a very interesting scene in Deep Cover, that is very much in your face.
We see our beloved Cresent Moon, turn into a Half Moon.
This to me, further implied that Tsugumichi was killed under that Cresent Moon. Afterall, if he wasn't why is it so prelavent?
So under this assumption, let's take a step back.
This occured at a Cresent Moon:
And this occured at a Half Moon:
Since a Moon Cycle takes 29.5 days, and the time between each phase is roughly 3.5 Days.
Meaning that Kotoko was hanging around after her crime for 3 and a half days at least.
It wasn't like Milgram would have a hard time finding her. Everyone knew who the perpetrator was, and which school she came from. It would have been incredibly easy to reach her, as opposed to the likes of like Amane.
I find it very weird. Especially since no one else seems to show their time post-crime and pre-Milgram. Since, persumably, they were taken pretty shortly afterwards, within 24 hours.
So why is Kotoko different, to the point she show things that occured after her crime. Was Milgram just slacking?
Another thing!
I mentioned how the Cresent Moon is a Waning Moon.
Well the Half Moon depicted is known as the Third Quarter, or the Last Quarter.
Aka, the Half Moon before The Wanning Crescent.
Now unless, Milgram has made a mistake about the Moon phases, which I deem unlikely since they shove this Shift in Moon Phases in the viewer's face, possibly trying to mislead the viewer by making it appear to be a 3.5 day shift, this means that this time skip isn't 3.5 days;
But instead around 26 days. Or 3.7 Weeks. Almost a Month.
So, unless, Milgram was really slacking in regards to collecting Kotoko, giving her 26 days of fun. Then there is a different possibility.
If Prisoners are collected shortly after their murder, then the only way to remedy this weird interval between Post-Murder and Pre-Milgram, is that Kotoko simply had another murder after Tsugumichi.
Makes sense right? More believeable than her just chilling. Also correlates with Shidou and Mikoto being serial killers. Since they can have multiple murders. Maybe when she did her first kill Milgram wasn't interested, and after her second it was? Who knows.
That's roughly Moon Theory.
And due to it, I think there's a very good chance that Kotoko had a second murder.
Now, with all this address, let's get to it!
Who is Kotoko's 2nd Victim?
Well we see Kotoko at the end of Deep Cover in her Ass-Kicking outfit. Someone is either getting a beating or is gonna die. And for this, we'll assume dead.
The thing is: The ending is clearly depicting her desire to Punish all the Prisoners. So we're not given much.
We do see The Moon go from being a Half Moon to a Full Red Moon. As she transforms into a Werewolf.
But since it's way more in Symbolism Hell, with it's Red Glow and Indigo Sky, it's harder to infer what this means. Is this the Moon in Milgram? Or when she did her final Kill?
I'm more akin to say the Half Moon is when Kotoko did her second kill, as it's in the Real World*, while the Red Full Moon is representing her in Milgram.
Is the blood she's covering just her symbolic drive for Punishment, or is it real blood? Then again she has always killed with her feet/shoe, so it wouldn't make sense for this to be real blood. She's never been shown to cut someone as her method. Typically she bashes.
So, I'll say this Full Moon (and her blood) is her in Milgram, and the Half Moon is when her second murder takes place.
So let's go back a bit.
The yellow smoke remind me of the Sun Symbolism Hell when she killed Tsugumichi. I definitely wouldn't say it's a reach that she's planning to murder someone here. So just as she's about to kill someone else it cuts to Symbolism Hell so that the viewer still believe she has one victim.
Now, there is almost no one who could be this victim that is that satisfying. Unless it's just one of the many faceless people in her MV, there is no one who is given a great amount of importance outside of herself, her victim, and Hat Kid.
Before we discuss the Lucky possibility, I will say this scene is probably the biggest evidence it isn't Lucky. As Kotoko walks pass Lucky to go to her victim. Which very much makes it seem like Lucky isn't the victim.
But perhaps that Kotoko trying to confuse us. She does eclispe her. And afterall, if Lucky is the victim, it's in Kotoko's best interest for us not to know that.
Hat Kid (Lucky) as Kotoko's Victim
Kotoko's 2nd Trailer Distorted Voiceline
"From the begin I've never asked for your understanding! My actions, one by one, are bringing earth closer to peace. Useless Weaklings should just shut up and let me protect them!"
This does not sound like Kotoko talking to Tsugumichi. She's addressing someone who is going against her.
This someone, could be Lucky, who would also be considered a useless weakling by Kotoko.
Kotoko views herself as a shield for the weak. That she protects them from those who are evil. But she also has her frustrations with those she considers weak.
When they don't act against evil.
She also mentions those with weak wills easily turn to evil. And in regards to evil, there is no away to start anew.
Which leads to motive. Lucky is going against Kotoko's justice as she withdrew her statement about Kotoko's murder being of self-defense. Making it much more likely Kotoko goes to Prison. In this way Lucky is preventing Kotoko from protecting weaklings like her.
More importantly, since Lucky withdrew her statement, that must mean Lucky she has had at least some change of mind. Which is dangerous, as she may confess that what Kotoko did was not self-defense. Lucky as the only proper witness to the crime, has a lot of power, and if she gets doubts, it can ruin Kotoko. Something that Kotoko would not want.
Since Lucky is the only eyewitness to the truth, Kotoko may have killed her since she would have stopped her from continuing her justice. She can't afford to try to get Lucky back into her grace as she does with Es, since she's already being suspected as a result. And Lucky suddenly changing her mind and giving back her statement isn't the greatest look.
So Lucky being the victim would also make sense why it's not shown at all in Harrow. Why Kotoko would not want us to know of this kill.
Kotoko wants Es/us to team up with her. So she focuses solely on the crime that is most justifiable. She murdered a child kidnapper! She only wants to protect the weak! She is a fang for justice!
If she had shown us her killing Lucky, for going against her, there is little chance that Es + us would want to team with her at all. Because while the murder would be right for Kotoko, she'd recognise it may not be favourable to an outsider.
WIth Lucky, it shows how far her ideology can go. To make sure evil is punished. Which I think is very interesting.
CONCLUSION
That's my kind of thought process. But to be completely honest, I'm not sure if there's enough right now to make a call. If I had to, I would say; yes, Lucky is another victim of Kotoko. But if she isn't I wouldn't be suprised.
I'm really curious to know more about Lucky, what drove her to withdraw her statement? And if she isn't the 2nd victim, who the hell is?
So to answer your question.
I am curious about your stance on the idea that Kotoko's milgram murder is Lucky (the hat kid).
I think there is a good chance that she killed Tsugumichi and Lucky, both showing the two sides of her ideology, the evil that must be punished, and what happens to weaklings who don't accept her protection. I believe it can work well, makes sense and explain some things. So a positive stance? Haha.
At the very least, she has two victims.
Hope this was an interesting response at the very least! Maybe I've missed something which I would love to be informed. But overall had a blast with this!
Thanks again Anon!
English Translations from MILGRAM Wiki
Crying B - milgrammer (Tumblr)
YONAH - oehale/o3ha_le (Twitter)
Kotoko's Second Interrogration Questions - Milgram Fancult
Kotoko's 2nd Trailer Distorted Voiceline - From Here
one of the biggest mistranslations that honestly done fucked up the international fandom and exacerbated polar ways of thinking about the characters (which has led to reducing yuno to western political stances rather than see her as a complex character) is the mistranslation of 赦す and 赦さない as "innocent" and "guilty" when in reality it's "Forgive" or "Unforgive"
[read more about the nuances of the words here]
that's actually an incredible point and you're absolutely right. the difference between 'do we think this is murder' (using terms from a court of law) and 'do you think they should be punished for this' (using terms about personal feelings) is day and night.
a crappy consequence of using the former is that it leads people to brush off crimes they already feel strongly on the legal standing of. between 'i vote yuno innocent because i don't think abortion is a crime' and 'i forgive yuno because i understand where she is coming from and i empathise with her position', only the latter party has actually engaged with her character, and doesn't just see her as a disconnected legal-cultural debate. and that's a shame and does a disservice to everything else her character is trying to say.
mildly unrelated, but still regarding how milgram was pitched to anglophonic fandom: i've also noticed as a result of the inno/guilty (court of law) fallacy that there is a subsect of milgram speculation that really relies on theorising if the prisoner's crimes are actually totally different to what we've been led to believe.
eg. people wondering if kotoko is in milgram for killing lucky and not her targets, because there's no way it's 'as simple' as her being a vigilante, and they expect a twist or obfuscation. speculating that certain crimes were self-defense. etc.
i understand why these might be avenues people want to consider. both because there's absolutely a possibility we have been misled - leading fandom theories can be wrong - and because different potential crimes would obviously change how the audience responds emotionally. but i think theorising like this misses the point a little.
i don't think milgram is a story of 'twists', and i don't think milgram uses biased prisoner testimony and MV symbolism as a way to eventually pull the rug out from us, to suddenly change where in the law book the prisoner falls. i think milgram presents information through biased testimony and symbolism so that the crimes are presented subjectively and emotionally before anything else.
because, like you said, the question isn't of legality or morality (innocent/guilty). it's of our personal response (forgive or to not).
milgram encourages the audience to make emotional responses. there's symbolism, there's natural speculation on the circumstances of their crime were, there's reactions to the prisoner's demeanours and attitudes. we are also encouraged to change our opinions as time goes on and these change, with the three trial structure. i will always find the audience's switch up on 0104 fascinating.
and a misconception that labelling the votes as innocent vs guilty has given the fandom is the idea that milgram's nuance lies in the mystery - that we are somehow being tricked or lied to about the crimes themselves. but i think milgram's nuance and strength lies in its subjectivity.
milgram Could have just given us a cast of characters, with their crimes presented objectively. we could have our intercultural interpersonal debate about how we feel about these circumstances, like a jury. but milgram isn't that.
it's an interactive project, that shares information with us through subjective & symbolic mediums. with the prisoners it asks - what do they feel led them to that moment? what can we infer also did? what do they think about their crime? how are they telling their story? how do their songs and visuals make us feel? and how does all of that influence how we judge and forgive them?
how do we, as people in power, respond to prisoners who simply 'rub us the wrong way'? (you'll notice that uppity or 'annoying' prisoners are often voted unforgiven, and more humble ones forgiven).
and i think milgram works perfectly as an elaborate social experiment and highly active, open discussion. because what can all of that tell us about what kinds of people these characters reflect, and what kind of people we are as an audience?
