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May 18

Dismantling the Idea of Solas as a Lying Liar Who Lies

Let me preface this by saying that I'm writing this post purely for my own (and possibly my moots') entertainment. This isn't going to be a debate. I'm just gonna take a post I found silly and dismantle it piece by piece. For fun.

Have other people written stuff like this in the past? 100% yes. Am I going to say it better than they did? Unlikely. (@vhen-harel specifically has already written a wonderful post about how Solas is very capable of change and how this very flat take on this personality and motivations doesn't do him justice at all.) But few things tickle me and my autistic brain quite like ripping apart weak arguments <3

I am deliberately not linking the post and not showing the name of the OP. This isn't a callout. Nobody harass this person, please.

(I do get a little bit catty/snarky... but oh well, it's for fun :D)

Ok let's go under the cut!

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______________________ Immediately we go into this whole thing with a sort of condescending pity that tells us exactly why the OP is writing this post. (Well, at least it's not death threats! Baby steps lol)

Let's first of all clarify that yes, we all do love Solas the character in a video game - that does not mean we are actually in love with this character. We're all adults, we understand the difference between fiction and reality, and with it, we also understand that a fictional character can be loved (by us and by our OCs) much more freely than a real person because we can literally see into their minds (read their correspondence, for example). This is also one of the reasons why many readers of Dark Romance "fall for" serial killer protagonists: We can literally read their minds, we know they aren't a threat to the female protagonist. But I digress.

This take on Solas is maybe true before the beginning of DAI - definitely still during The Masked Empire - but not at any point after. Even a Solas who isn't romanced will soften his stance between Trespasser and Veilguard. The crucial elements are interest and kindness. If he is shown both by the player/Inquisitor (and, to an extent, Rook), he will come to realize that while, yes, the elves of today are, partly, a result of his mistakes, they are also living, breathing, feeling people. Something he didn't consider before DAI.

Why didn't he consider it? Because his world was so intrinsically interwoven with the Fade, that living without it would seem practically impossible to him. But as he gets to know the members of the Inquisition, helps patch up refugees in the Hinterlands, notices the Inquisitor falling in love with him - he notices that these people laugh and live and feel just like he does. Something he couldn't have learned before, when he had just woken up and was weak and disoriented and alone. It took community to make him realize that people really didn't change that much in the millennia he'd been asleep. (And he realizes this even without Lavellan romancing him - he's still vexed by Vivienne, endeared by Cole, tries to comfort a newly Tal-Vashoth Bull, etc. - he interacts with the people of this new world and in that interaction he (re-)discovers their personhood and, crucially!, his own.)

So no. This point is completely invalid. And the quotes the OP gives aren't really relevant/fitting, either: ____________________

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This is not "trickery" or "lying". Solas doesn't secretly think of himself as a god "the whole time". The first quote is him trying to be earnest with Rook. He's drained from the ritual, the prison is likely tormenting him, he knows he killed Varric (who, for whatever reason, the writers decided was a close friend of his but okay we'll roll with it). He's tired, he's desperate, he's emotional. He slips a couple of times. He means to be calmly monologuing - but here and there, his true emotions shine through. Look at this face, listen to his voice:

Another impassioned plea for Rook to just listen to him. Like he's been begging people for literally thousands of years to listen to him. (That's a very common reaction in trauma survivors and traumatized neurodivergent people, btw. Just sayin'.) But he immediately closes back up and puts up a front of calm smugness and irritation because he knows Rook isn't on his side and never will be - like nobody except Felassan ever truly was.

Or here:

That's when they talk about Varric. A pretty big reaction when talking about someone Solas knows Rook believes to still be alive. There wouldn't be any reason to be this affected if he was only playing a character for Rook's sake. No. This is real sadness. (As real as a fictional character can portray it, anyway.) But, again, he immediately catches himself, smooths his face and gives an intelligent, sharp quip ("Varric is quite practiced at shading the truth himself.") That's his role, that's his "character" that he's going to use to get out. He must seem competent, not emotional, not weak, not vulnerable (yay, Mythal's conditioning at work).

The second quote is from the (to my mind) bad ending of Veilguard where Solas is fought (or tricked) and then forced into the prison (fucking cruel and sadistic, but oh well, I guess that's one thing the OP just conveniently doesn't question about themselves).

This is Solas at his absolute worst. He has become what everyone expects him to be. Emmrich even reminds the players who aren't paying attention:

Like we've all been saying for ages (with confirmation from Trick): Solas reflects the world around him. He is a person but he's also more than a person. Different. Alien. The text makes it very clear that Solas retains some of his spirit nature even now. So, as we know: You're an arrogant ass - he's going to be an arrogant ass. And the same is happening in this ending the OP quotes: Solas has been shown violence and mistrust all the way, until he is finally betrayed by people he thought of as allies - and now he is conforming to the image Rook (and his team) have of him.

(It's also actually not that alien a concept. Many people will have experienced something like this themselves. "Oh you think I'm a bitch?? Well, let me show you a bitch!")

This doesn't mean that Solas actually thinks or feels himself to literally be a god. I've seen the scene exactly once and I couldn't finish watching it. Let's ignore that the whole thing reeks of one particular person finally getting their shot in against a video game character who made them feel stupid. What we're left with is still just... despair. Bitter, biting despair. And fear (Greatest Fear = Dying Alone, anyone?). So yes. In this moment of total emotional collapse, of having lost the fight for his life, he refuses to beg - instead, the now fully realized, manifested Pride in him (since he has definitively, once and for all, been denied his true purpose as Wisdom) takes the only route left open: ego. Ego losing the fight with despair and fear.

And it's 100% Rook and Varric's fault for pushing him here and that's the hill I'll die on (:

(Also very telling that the OP conflates Arlathan and Elvhenan like they're the same thing, but oh well lol.)

Onwards!

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I love it when someone with an 8th grade reading level accuses me (teaching and literature degrees with linguistics focus, teehee) of misinterpreting my favorite character that I've been rotating in my head 360° for more than 10 years (:

I'm gonna go ahead and bet actual money than none of my fellow Solavellans ever misunderstood what Solas meant here. Of course he meant the ancient elves. And also spirits.

But this is another tell that OP didn't engage with Solas' character and the game carefully enough: Solas would definitely not want more spirits to take bodies unless they absolutely wanted to - which they wouldn't, if the Veil was gone and they could interact with the world freely again. He'd protect spirits as his people because he came from them and because he wishes to preserve their unique way of being. Not because he wants to create armies of "new ancient elves" to overrun Thedas with or something *heavy eyeroll*. And after Veilguard, after confronting Harding, after hearing about Harding's experiences in Kal Sharok, he very definitely wouldn't want more spirits to use Lyrium for making new bodies.

This bit is also deliciously wrong:

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We don't know what or who Solas meant exactly. But I'm gonna go out on a limb and say that while he was recruiting agents among those "malcontent elves" (terrible choice of words but okay), he might have felt reminded of what it was like leading an organization. Being among people sharing the same goal. Being a leader bearing real responsibility for real people. He had already been "softened" by his time with the Inquisition (and a possible romance with Lavellan). He had already experienced the reality that these people are actual living, feeling people.

I do think that between Trespasser and Veilguard, his plans change multiple times, and he finally compromises with himself: The Veil must come down to make life as he knew it possible again - but he's also first stabilizing the Veil by putting Elgar'nan and Ghilan'nain into new prisons and recruiting help "minimize the damage", as it were.

Is that perfect? No. Solas is still a morally grey character. It can be argued (and I often have) that he's right, that the Veil must come down, that the status quo is terrible for so many people (mages, elves, even dwarves) that the casualties would be worth it (yes, even if my OCs died; yes, even if every NPC I loved died; even if Solas himself died; I'm very anti-Veil lol).

And it can also be argued that the status quo is just how the world is now, and to grow, Solas needs to accept this new reality. Both are worthwhile interpretations, and I would never tell anyone they're "wrong" for not agreeing with me. I've read great fic in both directions.

However - this does not make Solas a "bad person" or a villain. Simply an imperfect person put in a difficult position (partly by his own actions, yes), trying to do what they think is right. That's what actually makes him so human, ironically enough.

So the whole "Solas never cared about modern elves" just isn't true. In the beginning, maybe. But then:

"I felt the whole world change."

"You change... everything."

His romance with Lavellan can make him realize that modern elves (and by extension other races) are capable of just as much depth and emotion as he is. And even without Lavellan, he can still forge a solid friendship with the Inquisitor and the other party members. You can't survive something like Adamant with a bunch of people and not view them differently, closer, afterwards.

This "Solas never cared" seems to be ripped straight out of a certain interview. If I were more paranoid I'd say this is JE posting lol.

The second point where OP is wrong: ego-driven.

Here's where it gets complicated (and that's why I think many Solas-haters get confused). Solas' propensity to see himself as the architect of Elvhenan's downfall does require a bit of an ego. Someone who believes themselves so powerful, so important, as to have ended an entire civilization by themselves, clearly views themselves as uniquely powerful.

In truth, Solas was only a relatively small part of what actually ended his civilization. He was the final dagger to a heart that had long since begun to stutter in its beat. And that was not his fault. The Evanuris made their choice to use the Blight and endanger every living thing on the planet (or at least the continent). Against Solas' repeated warnings.

But he loads all the guilt and regret on his own shoulders, even Mythal's death. Even though, again, it was her choice not to listen to him and to go confront the others alone. Why does he do this?

If he had the power to do it, then he must also have the power to undo it.

If this is all the result of his decisions, then he was and is in control.

If he must feel regret, then at least he wants it to be his own regret and not helpless despair over the actions of others.

He must maintain a certain level of this very specific kind of arrogance to protect his ego. Or better: to keep himself from breaking. That doesn't mean he's acting in service of his own self-aggrandizement. He doesn't want praise or worship, or even power. What he wants, he tells Lavellan: "[...] and simply stayed with you as Solas... as I wanted."

It may be a bit difficult to see - but even in the real world, people act like this every single day. Pride and arrogance can protect a bruised ego. Ego in the meaning of "sense of self". In my opinion, Solas uses arrogance as armor to hide his hurt and insecurity and loneliness. It's not a good coping strategy, but it's also not malice. If anything, once again, it's human.

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I'm gonna be real - I went through the entire Veilguard artbook and didn't find anything about this. Maybe JE said something like this in an interview? Does anyone have a source on this? Because otherwise I'm gonna press X to doubt on OP's statement.

Also, I kind of need OP to understand that, during development, a lot of ideas get kicked around - that doesn't mean they're "secret canon" or something. This idea didn't make it into the final game for a reason (mainly, I'm guessing, that nobody wanted to actually break the status quo of the world). Another reason might be that it's inconsistent with Solas' character. Which is why I think that if anyone said anything like this it must have been JE (:

Anyway, could it potentially happen that new beings form/develop as the Veil comes down? Yeah. That might actually be a super interesting monkey-paw scenario for Solas to deal with. He gets the old world restored - but spirits begin taking bodies again and new wars tear the continent apart. And Solas is completely clueless on what to do with these "new ancient elves" worshiping him as a god, old ancient elves holding millennia-old grudges against him, dwarves understandably hating his guts, and everyone generally hating each other. And, once again, it would be his fault. An actually interesting bad ending, in a way.

But that's not what OP means. OP thinks we're too stupid to see that Solas is fighting an internal battle over his own and everyone else's personhood. Maybe over the definition of what a "person" even is. It's not that, once he realizes everyone is indeed sentient, he doesn't have doubts and he doesn't feel guilty. He wavers again and again. He leads the Inquisitor through the Crossroads in Trespasser, he reveals himself to Charter without neutralizing her in Tevinter Nights, he leaves clues during The Missing and the audio drama, he writes a letter to Lavellan, he puts his regrets in the Crossroads and the Lighthouse - all of it to be found.

All of it a testament to his yearning for others' understanding and his own search for clarity.

Also, and I think that's super fucking important: Solas never called himself the savior of anything or anyone. He was always just a guy. Doing what he thought was right because he was put in a position where he had to. He rejected the title of Evanuris, he rejected the mantle of Fen'Harel - only accepting it when Felassan urged him to take it on, for the cause. He also never approached Lavellan or any other elf like "Hey, I can save you all if you just let me burn the world down."

He's not some fearsome, glorious general who thrives on the power of command - he never was, and he isn't in DAI, in Trespasser, in Veilguard or at any point in between. It's incredibly unfair and, frankly, willfully ignorant, to accuse him of this.

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I almost want to say this was written by AI because of how bad and strange this take is. (But it isn't because the sentence structure is too weird for AI.)

Facts: Solas stopped being a spirit of wisdom when he took a body. He did not become a pride demon, either. He became a person. A person with complex emotions, morality, and, yes, some lingering effects of his spirit-nature.

Facts: His spirit was corrupted by war, unwanted politicking, nobody listening to his advice, being betrayed and mistrusted and not believed for millennia - in short: he was corrupted by being denied his true nature and purpose as Wisdom. (We know this from his quest in DAI All New Faded For Her, and from what Mythal says at the end of Veilguard: "I used your wisdom as a weapon... and it broke you.")

Facts: Solas started "playing hero" long before Mythal was murdered. He began his rebellion long before that point because they were already estranged/distant, when he asked her to leave the Evanuris and join him because they were using the Blight.

So absolutely none of what OP says here lines up.

I'm also a big fan of the idea that "Solas" was originally the word for Wisdom but Elgar'nan burned the meaning away and it changed to Pride as an insult to Solas, denying him his purpose even in his name. But it's "only" a widely accepted headcanon/fan theory so OP and other haters wouldn't accept it anyway, and they probably also wouldn't understand the difference/significance (:

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Willful misunderstanding (or a lack of reading comprehension): Solas doesn't "not see a problem" because he doesn't care. He isn't glib or cold about his decision in this specific memory. He lays it out very plainly:

He thinks of himself as irredeemably damaged. He mourns what he used to be. And he is reasonably certain that all spirits (like he used to be) are better off dead than being what he is (corrupted, not "themselves" anymore).

Maybe it's also a cope. But if it is, then not because he doesn't care about the spirits he sacrificed that day, but because he has to force himself not to care. There's a significant difference.

And Felassan sees all of this as well, eventually:

Actually, we learn so much about Solas through Felassan. Much more than that one cherry-picked confrontation.

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8 to 10k years is not "hundreds of thousands of years".

I'm sure Solas did also have a personal dislike of Elgar'nan (especially because they're so similar in their flaws), and eventually also a vendetta due to Mythal's murder. Which is absolutely understandable.

What's patently wrong is the part about using allies as cannon fodder - once again, seems like this was taken from JE's musings.

Here, we get confirmation that Solas has always had a tendency to blame himself in the aftermath of people dying under his command:

(And also that it wasn't Solas who insisted on the title of Fen'Harel - it was counter-propaganda that he reluctantly agreed to.)

So: no. Solas was not deliberately or carelessly sacrificing people for his plans. Quite the opposite. Which we as Solavellans also get to experience when he breaks up with us instead of recruiting us like he could have. And then, when we offer to join him during Trespasser, he rejects us again. He could have a valuable, usable ally/pawn in an Inquisitor who's in love with him. But he categorically refuses. Because he knows he may be put in a position where he might have to sacrifice Lavellan and he couldn't live with himself.

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First of all: Nice victim-perpetrator inversion there, OP.

Solas can't look at Mythal because she is, at the very least, his former slave owner. At worst, she's his abuser. Both over millennia. An abuser he loved deeply and could never fully let go of. This dynamic happens irl all the time. And it's not pretty.

Loving your abuser, being convinced you owe them something, being ashamed when you don't conform to their expectations of you, being afraid of their reactions and what they might look like, but still, always, hoping they will be gentle this time. That's a very special kind of hell.

And that's exactly what I see happening here:

And that's also why he didn't visit her fragment in the Crossroads. He loves her - but he couldn't stand being near her. Plus, this isn't even really Mythal as a whole. It's a fragment. A splinter of her being from the very distant past. Another detail OP likely just didn't care to fucking read.

Also why tf would Solas need to seek Mythal's counsel? He was her counsel. If she ever bothered to actually listen to him.

And, again, she's been dead for millennia. We conjure her picture, an incomplete remnant of her, one last time to emotionally kick Solas in the ribs while he's on the ground already, in the hope that this might throw him off balance enough that he'll agree to our plan. Which is pretty god damn fucked up, if you think about it for more than two minutes, btw. But of course when Rook and team do something like this, it's Justified(tm). Anyway, it's not actually Mythal, just like Morrigan isn't actually Mythal, just like Flemeth wasn't actually Mythal.

And then we have the thing with Varric (and what OP has terribly misconstrued and/or misunderstood on a fundamental level):

The game lays it out so god damn clearly, and OP still managed to draw the exact opposite conclusion. (This is what I meant by 8th grade reading level btw.)

Varric actually believes in Solas. Believes in the good in Solas. As much as I'm not on board with how this game suddenly made Varric a reliable narrator, apparently (completely contrary to the two previous games but OH WELL) - if OP wants to go with Varric as the measure of things, then here we are lol.

Varric says: Solas, deep down, is a hero. Wanting to be a hero is core to his character. But, currently, Solas is playing(!) the villain. Because if he is the villain, if he has always been the villain, the destroyer of a civilization, at fault for Mythal's death, etc. - then that was at least his choice. At least he had power over these circumstances. He didn't. But telling himself he did can be comforting for someone as completely lost and desperate as Solas.

"Remind him of who he really is." - Implying that Solas is, in fact, a hero, a good guy - just currently hurt and misguided. Varric says it so explicitly, it's insane OP couldn't parse it. *another big eyeroll*

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This is just random feelings-based association. There is no textual basis to interpret Solas' self-admitted similarity to Elgar'nan as one of his reasons for intentionally(!) prolonging the war with the Evanuris. Wtf. What kind of middle school level bs is this? xD

On the contrary: Solas hates his similarities with Elgar'nan - or, better, the potential similarities. Which is why they clash so horribly.

This is also something that happens all the time irl. A lot of the time, we dislike people when they show us a mirror image of our own negative traits.

This is what Solas says about it:

It's not that Solas never cared. It's also not that he actually was like Elgar'nan. It's that he saw his own potential for becoming like Elgar'nan and, like the son of a violent alcoholic, strongly and definitively rejected those traits in himself and in the other person.

Which is likely why he loved Felassan so much. See the previous codex again:

Does Solas use this specific situation in Veilguard to build rapport with Rook to win their trust and be able to escape the prison? Yes. But still, I don't believe that to be malice.

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This is such a spectacular misinterpretation, I'm legit in awe lol.

I think OP is talking about the Mythal fragment at the end of Veilguard - which proves they didn't understand what happened during that ending at all.

And what that fragment did was:

Emotionally destabilize Solas.

Finally release him from his obligations to Mythal in a way that he would believe/that would make sense to him.

These obligations were, in the end, the only reason he was still holding on to his plans. To make the world "right again" - for Mythal. The world she (allegedly) loved. To protect her People, like he had sworn to do. To atone for "causing" her murder.

The important thing, however, is that Mythal, the Mythal, isn't there. She doesn't exist anymore. She will never exist again in the way Solas knew her. He only sees an ancient projection of a piece of her. (And it's very indicative of his abysmal emotional and physical state that he doesn't have the capacity to correctly contextualize who or what he's talking to anymore in that moment.)

So we don't actually know what Mythal would have done. We only know what this fragment, primed by Rook and friends to be on their side, was persuaded to say. And it worked mostly because Solas was already broken by that point. Not because "Mythal is super clever" or whatever lol.

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Felassan does refuse to follow Solas' orders in The Masked Empire - yes. But not because of anything that happened during their fight against the Evanuris.

Felassan was loyal to Solas all through that war, even when he created the Veil, even afterwards:

(I wanted to put another screenshot but "only 30 images allowed" xD So now OP's text is gonna be in color.)

Look at this place. We planned a rebellion here once. Said we'd change the future of the elves, throw off tyrants, and we did. Now the path outside is fractured. It'll be hard rekindling all the eluvians.

Solas, if you see this: I'll be looking for you, out in this world and in the mortal one. Don't cause too much trouble before I get there.

(source)

Felassan even agreed to work for/with Solas again when he woke up from Uthenera.

What finally pushed him to go against Solas (and not even "against", he just refused one order and knew he would die for it; he didn't actively work against Solas - which is definitely its own tragedy) - is the same realization Solas would also come to after actually living in this world for some time: modern elves (and other races) are people. And him/them denying them their personhood is the same as those very people denying the personhood of spirits.

Felassan just got there faster than Solas because he'd been awake for the past millennia while Solas was asleep. Felassan had already made connections and even tenuous friendships with modern people - just like Solas would during DAI (which ends up swaying him enough to alter his plans by the time we reach Veilguard).

The whole thing with Felassan is tragic because it's a case of "wrong place, wrong time". If they had met after DAI, Felassan's advice and pleas would have fallen on more fertile ground. Heck, Solas might have used his connection with Briala to mobilize the elves of Orlais or something. But they just... missed that window because Felassan was awake first and longer, and he had already "made his peace", in a way.

But all of this has nothing to do with Felassan "seeing who Solas really is". He has always seen exactly who Solas is. And that's why he accepts his death (or tranquility) the way he does. If he thought this was about some stupid disagreement with Elgar'nan (How even? That war is over?), I'd bet money that Felassan would have argued. Hard.

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Elgar'nan's disdain for Solas finally makes sense and the player can understand his cynicism toward Solas' claims that he is a tyrant and a false god.

In that scene, Solas accuses Elgar'nan of many wrongdoings, and they are all true. But does Solas have the moral high ground, as he claims? That is what Elga'nan questions repeatedly. Rook doesn't know, but Elgar'nan DOES know Solas, and knows he is not fighting for freedom.

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Okay, OP. What is Solas fighting for, then? Because i can't really see any other motivation. But back up for a second.

Elgar'nan's disdain for Solas and the reasons for it are made super clear: Elgar'nan is a tyrant. He wants/needs absolute power, and also perfect obedience from those he commands. And a challenge to that power, and refusal of obedience, is a challenge of Elgar'nan himself. Because Elgar'nan, like Solas, is an incarnated spirit somehow turned from his purpose (Command could easily turn into Tyranny, if left unchecked). Solas (and Mythal) were trying to keep Elgar'nan in check - but it didn't work, for whatever reason.

Wisdom asks questions. Wisdom doesn't care about power. Wisdom, in its purest form, isn't just knowledge. It's looking at all the facts, all the available experience, and then giving objective advice on that basis. (Note: Objective doesn't mean cold or unempathetic. Objectivity can be kind, too. Wisdom just doesn't coddle overgrown egos and their tantrums.)

Command (and Tyranny) are emotion-driven; their purpose an end unto itself. Now, what happens when a being like that is confronted with objectivity and well-meaning questions? They see it as an invalidation of their entire self. Because their whole deal is command, power, absolute will - they don't tolerate any second-guessing in themselves or in others. And because Command's frame of reference is limited to their own experience of the world, they must perceive Wisdom's gentle questioning as a direct attack. Because that's what they themselves would do.

This is why Solas ticks Elgar'nan off. Their natures are diametrically opposed: Command/Tyranny wants to rule - Wisdom/Pride questions that rule (for different reasons). (This is an age-old trope/dynamic in many mythologies, for example Odin and Loki.)

And none of this is based in Solas secretly wanting Elgar'nan's position or the same amount of power or anything.

(This, btw, is something autistic people experience basically every day: our well-meaning questions are misconstrued as power-plays and then people call us "arrogant".)

Does Solas have the moral high-ground? Yes and no. In the beginning, I'd say 100% yes. Solas, relatively newly incarnated, would have done nothing but question here and there. The longer Solas lives, the more "questionable" deeds he amasses (if we reduce morality to simple black and white, like OP does) - crafting the dagger and helping commit a genocide, for example. Accepting casualties in both wars he's a part of. Using subterfuge and the odd bending of the truth in his information-war against the Evanuris. Killing/tranquilizing Felassan. What happens with Lavellan. The list goes on.

What distinguishes Solas from Elgar'nan, however, is his capacity for regret and shame. Solas feels both. Deeply. Elgar'nan does not (as far as we're aware from the text - don't come for me, Elgar'nan shippers! I'm one of you!).

It's the difference between a murderer and a psychopath. (Although I really wouldn't call Solas a "murderer", this is just to illustrate the point.) Solas accepts death (even his allies') when it's necessary (or when he thinks it is). Hell, he accepts his own death (we can speculate from clues that the actual, final ritual would have killed him). He doesn't gleefully clap his hands while thousands die/are sacrificed "in his honor" - which is what Elgar'nan did and does.

So, while Solas is obviously a morally grey, complex character (which is the whole point!), he is by no means on the same "moral ground" as Elgar'nan.

(Once again: See what I mean by "8th grade reading level"?)

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He knows Solas wears The Rebel Leader's disguise well, but that is all it is: a disguise. A fantasy Solas wrapped around himself so he could deceive his followers and justify his spite against the Evanuris. A spite that, as Elgar'nan cleverly points out, has no longer anything to do with Mythal's murder, since, in his words, he murdered her "only the first time." If Solas was indeed fighting to avenge his beloved, he would not have murdered her and stolen her powers.

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Finally, OP gets something right xD Fen'Harel is indeed a disguise. A fantasy figure created for the purpose of counter-propaganda. (I'm pretty sure his true identity as Mythal's Second was very privileged information, actually.) The Solas in DAI is much closer to what and who he actually is than the grandiose tale of Fen'Harel. It's not deceit. I'm starting to wonder if OP is actually 14 years old. It's political strategy to motivate people, give them something to believe in. Not to "trick" them - how is it "trickery" when you free people from slavery and then leave it up to them if they want to fight for your cause or not?

Sure, if he conscripted them, if he said "well, I freed you, now you owe me", if he freed people to then sacrifice them in his own rituals or something - that would be "trickery". But that's not what Solas did/does. We learn during Trespasser, that nobody is forced to fight, and the stakes of joining the fight are made extremely clear. Everyone else has their Vallaslin removed and then gets to live in one of the sanctuaries, like they would in a regular village or town.

(To me, the whole Fen'Harel thing and Solas' relationship with it is akin to an autistic person masking: Sure, I can absolutely seem competent and witty and extroverted - but that's not the core of my personality or what I'd prefer to do. We do it because we have to.)

Second point: Elgar'nan knows Solas. He knows that Solas' relationship with Mythal is a sore spot. So of course he hones in on that topic. When Elgar'nan says that line, "only the first time", both of them understand that Flemeth was not Mythal. Just like Morrigan isn't actually Mythal in Veilguard. Solas absorbed another shard of Mythal's essence and that killed Flemeth, the mortal woman.

Because: What happens when a spirit dies? Right, it fractures. Who knows how many pieces of Mythal are still strewn around Thedas and in the Fade? (It's a neat writing trick for keeping the writers' options open.) But none of those pieces is Mythal or ever will be again.

Elgar'nan says this because he knows the mere implication that Solas had anything to do with Mythal's death in any way would make Solas emotional. They are both trying to goad each other into an emotional outburst, into losing their concentration. It's strategy - not truth in a dogmatic sense.

And, bonus: Flemythal accepted this death willingly. She could have fought. At this point, she probably would have been stronger than Solas. But she went along with his plan. The whole thing around "Old God Souls" and Kieran and Morrigan is pretty murky, canonically. Probably on purpose. But if Kieran exists, Flemeth not only has Mythal's fragment inside her, but also Urthemiel's (June's?) soul? Fragment? Spirit? It's very unclear. Anyway, it might very well be that she foresaw all of this happening and acquired another Evanuris fragment to "give to" Solas, while sending Mythal's soul/fragment/whatever through the Eluvian to Morrigan. So that Solas actually "runs on" Urthemiel/June's power now. (But that's speculation on my part.)

____________

The truth is, Elgar'nan knows Solas very well, for they are two sides of the same coin. Were Solas sitting on the throne instead of Elgar'nan, he, too would use his personal charm and oratory skills to manipulate crowds to do his bidding.

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We already did this: No, they are not "two sides of the same coin" - they are diametrically opposed natural principles.

Solas, by his very nature, has no desire to "sit on the throne". Ever. Cole says this very directly:

"He wants to give wisdom, not orders."

"Solas doesn't want to hurt people! He's not that kind of wolf!"

The charming, slightly arrogant, smooth Solas is part of his personality, a bit of Pride that got integrated into Wisdom because he is now a complex, physical being instead of a pure, abstract concept. Could he potentially turn cruel and callous? Yeah. Like every person can. But he fights against it, and his inherent Wisdom protects him in this. (See again what he tells Rook about Elgar'nan further up in this post.)

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The main difference between Elgar'nan and Solas is simply that Solas disguises his true agenda behind a veneer of fake humility and charismatic Rebel Leader persona. A disguise which effectively charmed Lavellans and deceived them into believing he is the quiet, unassuming Elven mentor, turned into the heroic liberator of the Elven people, leading to all sorts of fantasies about Solas that are simply not true to his real character.

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OP still hasn't given us Solas' "true agenda".

What's that supposed to be?

Rule like Elgar'nan after the Veil falls? Fuck no. I don't think you could pay him to do that. If one person walked up to him after the ritual like "So, you're our new god, then?", I think he'd eject himself into the stratosphere. (If he doesn't die during/for the ritual, which is heavily implied by the whole Din'an'shiral thing, imo.)

Revenge? Yeah, kind of. It's part of his motivation, but not the whole deal. He already had is revenge when he bound the Evanuris to the Veil and they were slowly tortured (mostly) to death. He just wants to make sure that Elgar'nan and Ghilan'nain can't do any more damage. To him, his plans, or, crucially, the people he's come to actually kind of like, if he's honest with himself. Sure, he may take some pleasure in thwarting his old adversaries once again (bickering with Elgar'nan during Blood of Arlathan makes him nostalgic, reminds him of "simpler times"), but he's not an idiot: he's aware of this tendency of his.

But I also think it makes him sad, makes him grieve the (dysfunctional, toxic) family he lost so long ago all over again. Ghilan'nain, who was "the most sensitive" of them. Elgar'nan who used to verbally spar with him - two people he knew from pretty much the beginning of time, who he had to watch ignore all his warnings and advice, and slowly descend into madness and corruption. I'd imagine his feelings on all of this are a lot more complex than "take that, evildoers!".

Just sowing chaos for the sake of it? Would be in line with the trickster trope, I guess (Not fully, The Trickster often sows chaos in stories to show the fragility of rules and systems, and remind us that authority is never absolute). But that's also not it. Solas does have chaotic elements to his motivations, especially early on, when he's young(er). (Making it so that this one noble hears laughter everywhere he goes? That's a classic trickster move.) But I feel like that tendency kind of gets beaten out of him by repeated traumatic experiences and all the pressure of responsibility for a whole-ass political movement on his shoulders. He'll always have a little mischievous energy to his personality - the sarcastic remark, the fox-like smirk - but it's not ever his "whole thing" to the degree that all his actions would be motivated by a pure lust for chaos for the sake of it.

Getting back Mythal? Will not and cannot happen. And he knows this. He knows how spirits die. Maybe he imagines that something like Mythal would be reborn in a world without the Veil and he could be friends with that being again - but that's a huge stretch of extrapolation and speculation.

No. Solas tells us what he really wants in his letter to Lavellan in Veilguard:

"... you do not know how close I came to breaking. I could have shared the truth, or even put my plans aside and simply stayed with you as Solas... as I wanted."

Breaking implies that he is currently doing something against his will and better knowledge. That he's holding on to it as hard as he can, even when he knows it's not good for him - or possibly anyone. It's like holding on to the edge of a cliff when all you have to do is take the outstretched hand above you. But you keep holding on to the cliff to prove a point - about your own strength, about your convictions, about your history, about your emotions. Letting go would be giving up. Breaking.

And he wants to. Desperately. That's the tragedy of it. That's the tragedy of Solas' pride. His pride isn't about being loquacious and grandiose - his pride is purely self-destructive.

And this is where I think many people fundamentally misunderstand the character. Pride isn't necessarily loud and flashy. Internalized, hardened pride can be something you don't even notice about someone. When we say someone is "prideful", we usually imagine someone parading around their status, their knowledge, their wealth, their skill, their looks etc. for attention. But Solas' pride comes from hurt and trauma, from being constantly dismissed, ignored, and willfully misunderstood - and his ability to stand against all that completely by himself.

Letting go of that kind of pride - a pride that, in essence, protects your ego from fracturing - is deathly scary. Which is why he can't do it. Not even for Lavellan. But he clearly expresses that he wants to. He wants to live as "just Solas": A painter, a poet, a musician, an advisor, a scientist. In community with others. Community that accepts him, that doesn't force him to constantly defend and protect himself.

But because he thinks it's a) impossible, and b) that he doesn't deserve this (after all he's done), he walks away and forces himself to "hold on to the cliff" longer.

I don't think any of us see Solas as a "heroic leader". (I mean, my BPD Lavellan does - but that's because she is literally mentally ill and it completely breaks their relationship because Solas would despise being put on a pedestal by a partner like that.)

OP is just looking for some way to feel superior to "those poor Solavellans", and they're using nothingburger, flimsy fantasy arguments to try to achieve that goal. How do I know? Nowhere in the entire post does OP actually talk about what Solas' motivation/goal actually is.

They play him up as a deceitful villain - but that only works if there's actually some goal behind the deceit. You can't deceive someone without having a goal in mind. (I mean, some people lie for the fun of it, I guess? But that wouldn't make any narrative sense. And we are still talking about a fictional character, just in case OP has forgotten lol.)

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So there you have it. Solas had stopped waging his war against the Evanuris for noble reasons - freeing the People - and had started enjoying playing the hero and the leader. He had a talent to amass crowds and steer them whenever and wherever he wanted. That's when his corruption began and he became the false leader against which the Evanuris warned the People.

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Nope. Again: As we know from Felassan, and Cole, and also from Solas himself, he does not revel in his leadership. Does it sometimes have its perks? Probably. Does he sometimes feel good about himself for two minutes when something works out? Very likely. But that's just life. Even a job you hate can be fun once a month or so, if you chat with that one colleague you like or something.

And Solas' corruption began long before his rebellion. Namely, when Mythal made him kill under her command. We know this can break Wisdom spirits from All New Faded For Her. Solas, not being a spirit anymore, didn't fully become Pride, and the process was likely a slow one, given how his physical form would have given his personality more stability. But that first war and Mythal's repeated rejection of his advice (his nature) is what motivated his new tendencies towards Pride. His rebellion was only possible, because he had already reached a tipping-point in his development. Not the other way around.

Also, why "false leader"? Did he not actually free slaves? Did he not actually work to dismantle the corrupt system of absolute power the Evanuris held? Did he not actually try to save everyone and everything from the Blight? Like, I don't understand why OP is so insistent on calling Solas a "false" anything. Solas never lies. He's bad at lying.

Case in point: That time we ask him "When were you at court?" after the Winter Palace in DAI. He immediately drops approval for that question. It's (iirc) the only time he drops approval for asking a question. And then he completely slips: "Oh! Well… Never… directly, of course!" That's the only time we hear him stutter like that. He's trying to come up with a plausible lie on the spot and he can't do it. Because that's not what he does. On the basis of his experiences and insight, he can make up half-truths and misdirections, he can rules-lawyer on the basis of technicalities. But when forced to outright, lie he flounders.

Also, again, if he were lying about his motivations, there would have to be true motivations - which we already examined. They don't exist. Not like OP imagines (if they imagine anything). Because (if you can actually read) what you see is what you get with Solas. Fen'Harel is the mask. Not him.

OP just fell for Evanuris propaganda hook, line, and sinker.

____________

In a way, Elgar'nan and the Evanuris were not wrong about Solas some time after the beginning of the war: he was leading people astray and manipulating them for reasons that had nothing to do with freedom and everything to do with fuelling his insane ego.

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I don't know if OP is going mask-off here, or if they're too dense to understand what they actually wrote.

"Leading people astray"?? Like. Freeing people from actual, literal slavery? On a voluntary basis? Recruiting, again, volunteers for his fight against, again, literal slavery?

Is OP trying to say that just amassing followers and commanding them is the actual goal of Solas' rebellion? Because. That makes literally ZERO sense.

He could literally just have taken his seat as one of the Evanuris after the Titan War. He was one of the generals (under Mythal, but still). He could have had his own court, his own temples, his own Vallaslin. It would have been so god damn easy. He could have bickered with Elgar'nan all day, every day, until the sun burned out. From the same place in the hierarchy as Elgar'nan's.

I'm pretty sure Mythal would have been ecstatic to have him join the Evanuris "family", even later. Just like they accepted Ghilan'nain who wasn't even one of the first like Solas.

Why tf would he come back later and fight a never-ending war to free people who don't even know him from slavery and paint a gigantic target on his back?

I feel like OP was on their phone playing Candy Crush while someone else played the games in the same room. Jesus Christ.

_____________

Remember how he even admitted he wasn't "preparing Rook" only to lose them? Further evidence of his corruption and deceitful nature, of how he cannot stop using people as if they were cannon fodder at this point.

_____________

Yeah. He said that. To play the part of the villain Rook needs, to be regretful and desperate enough for the prison to accept them. We've been over this at the start of this post.

Solas only knows: he needs to get out. He needs to be there to stand against Elgar'nan and Ghilan'nain. The world doesn't have a chance without him. (And we literally see for ourselves that we need him to hold off Lusacan.)

But he also knows nobody will free him. Nobody will believe him. Because nobody has ever believed him. Nobody has ever taken his advice. So he does what he has to, in an act (literally an act) of desperation.

It's not malice. It's pattern recognition.

____________

But people either don't pay attention to details or choose to woefully ignore them.

____________

That's so fucking hilarious after reading this terrible post with zero research and zero reading comprehension behind it xD

____________

And that's how you get Inquisitors who, for some reason, are willing to forgive him, even when he himself acted all guilty and remorseful in the Mythal ending, undeserving even of Mythal's gaze...

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Hey, OP. Newsflash. We usually forgive people only when they are remorseful. That's actually a good reason to forgive someone. Because they express regret and remorse for their wrongdoing.

Secondly: I don't know a single Solavellan who insists that Solas never did anything wrong. We joke about it, of course, and some of us go harder with putting more or less blame on him, personally. But all of us, I think, can agree that Solas does have things to be sorry for in some capacity. That's not a failing of his character - that's actually what we love about him. He's flawed. He's complex. He tries to do better and fails - multiple times. But he keeps trying. With more or less success.

Solas is quintessentially human. That's why we love him.

Not because he's some shining ideal OR because he's an edgy rebel.

It's because he contains multitudes.

Like all of us.

(And there are definitely also Lavellans, in the sense of OCs, that do not forgive Solas. Or who have a difficult time with trusting him again. People write amazing fic about this dynamic!)

___________

Kudos to Rook's team for realizing what Solas was from the beginning and coming up with the fake dagger plan. To me, the only ending where you see Solas' TRUE NATURE is the fake dagger one, where he is imprisoned against his will. As Solas himself said, he believed himself to be a god...and the rest were just mortals with an infinitesimally small existence, unworthy of consideration; nothing more than souls to be sacrificed in his little tug of war with the Evanuris.

___________

Canonically speaking, that says more about OP than it does about Solas as a character. You see what you want to see. And you can only see in fictional characters, especially one like Solas, what's already within your own heart. I'll leave it at that.

(But, again: tug of war with the Evanuris over fucking what? It makes no god damn sense! And calling the fight against slavery and literal physical corruption through the Blight a "tug of war" is... a choice.)

____________

If you ask me, Ghilan'nain, Elgar'nan and YES, SOLAS, all of them got exactly what they deserved. Thedas is better off without ANY of them.

____________

Fun fact: @blkcat once asked Trick what happens with the real Lyrium Dagger when Solas is forced into the prison, and Trick replied that the real Lyrium Dagger stays/ends up with Solas in the prison ("Yeah, he keeps it, but he's not leaving the prison anytime soon." For example here, in this ending.)

So, technically, "blighted, insane Solas comes back to destroy Thedas in a few 100 years because he was denied redemption" is canon, and everyone who was cruel enough to condemn him to this fate actually destroyed the world with it. (:

(I'm half-joking, it could just be an oversight in event-planning during production. Or an open backdoor for future shenanigans. But it would be deliciously ironic.)

Anyway, Solas agrees with OP. Solas, from DAI onwards, wants nothing more than to just retreat somewhere quiet, ideally with Lavellan. And that's the peace he finally accepts in the redemption ending.

And even before any of the games actually happen, Solas just wants to return to the Fade. Mythal coaxed and manipulated him into taking a physical form he never wanted. Being back in the Fade and just leaving everything behind is a best-case scenario for him.

____________

Wow. I don't think I've ever written a post this long in my whole +20 years on the internet. If you've made it this far, then I assume it must have been at least somewhat worth it :D

Thank you for devoting your time and attention to a silly, yappy, self-indulgent rebuttal post. I did this mainly for myself, and I had fun with it, but if it was fun for you too, then that makes me happy <3

wingedblack

May 18

foxeareddevilish

Venting about the treatment of Solas in Veilguard

I don't want to go too, too deeply into it, but all day I've been thinking about how blatantly unfair and mean everyone is to Solas in Veilguard. (And we all know why, but I'll let that particular sleeping dog (mostly) lie, I guess.)

(I am increasingly bitter about all of this, and while I genuinely enjoyed Veilguard for what it was, and for the catharsis and closure of the Solavellan ending, on repeat playthroughs I am getting really frustrated by the illogical, unsympathetic, and outright cruel way Solas is treated by the narrative. You don't have to like or romance him to see that none of it lines up properly.)

Solas is not an idiot, he knows people are after him and people don't agree with him. But this particular bit is just mean. It feels like it's meant to read as an understanding nod towards the audience. Like a "Yeah we know you hate this guy, we do, too - everyone does."

Let's not talk about the fact that his plan was to actually stabilize the Veil by moving Elgar'nan and Ghilan'nain to stronger prisons.

Let's not talk about the fact that Varric bulldozed his way into a magical ritual he didn't fucking understand to pretend he was saving the world (talk about a hero-complex) and distracting the person currently wielding the energy of 8-10 nuclear power plants.

Let's not talk about the fact that Rook and their reckless carelessness are the reason why the ritual failed and Solas threw himself (and the world!!) the only lifeline he could in that moment - a blood magic connection.

No. Let's instead be schoolyard-bully mean to a heavily traumatized man while refusing to hear anything he has to say.

Sure, Rook. You know better than the millennia-old, immortal being trying to sort out your mess.

I bet this line hurt Solas more than he admitted to even himself. Once again willfully misunderstood, misinterpreted, misconstrued, and bitterly reminded of a time when that was his life for centuries.

We continue with this:

Really? Really? Yeah he fucking burned the corrupted lab, Harding. There was and is no cure for the Blight. God-like powers or not ("Come on, be the god she needs." - wtf), he wasn't "too scared of the Blight to do anything" - there literally wasn't anything else he could have done.

This scene makes me so angry. I would pay good money to have access to information what the writers' room looked like on this.

But then again, the whole game is mostly just a complete character assassination of Solas in an effort to a) comfort one man's fragile ego (how ironic, the parallel with Elgar'nan), and b) make the story make sense somehow for people who disliked Solas in DAI.

Sure, let's call Solas a coward for not performing divine miracles on demand. Let's pretend it's willful cruelty or indifference and not a sheer and obvious lack of power.

How fucking cruel to accuse him like this, when this confrontation alone probably ripped his heart to shreds knowing he was responsible for all of it. But instead of empathetic understanding (Rook also caused a cataclysmic event without meaning to and is currently confronted with the consequences of their own actions!), all they do is sneer.

Once again, the game itself is only giving us half the story. On purpose. This "discussion" makes it seem like Solas only wanted to stop Elgar'nan (and only him) because he didn't want to see him in power.

But that's not it. Solas started rebelling and freeing slaves for ideological reasons, yes - but what really pushed him over the edge and towards the creation of the Veil was the Evanuris using the Blight. Something Solas knew would endanger every single living thing in entire world. Not a petty power squabble or a difference in politics - a necessity of raw survival.

The game tries to paint Solas and Elgar'nan as "two politicians", "just like Tevinter nobles", because recognizing that Solas did something necessary nobody else was able and/or willing to do, bloodying his hands and blackening his conscience, and losing his dearest friend and lover over it, would make him sympathetic.

And if there's one thing Solas isn't allowed to be in this game it's sympathetic. Because this is one man's quest for vengeance against a video game character that made him feel a negative emotion once.

(To be Fair And Balanced(tm), you can steer Rook in a sympathetic direction via dialogue - but the companions just always snap back into their default anti-Solas mindset.)

Oh fuck all the way off, Morrigan. Treacherous. Who conned the Warden/Alistair/Loghain into making an Old God Baby for your own ends? Who absconded without a word like a thief in the night, leaving the people you claimed were your only friends behind? Who snuck her way into the fucking Imperial Court of Orlais, only to weasel herself into the Inquisition in hopes of grabbing power and artifacts of a culture that isn't yours?

Oh, what's that? That was necessary? You were protecting yourself and your child?

Hmmmmmh!!!! It's almost as if sometimes, subterfuge is necessary!

I have nothing against Morrigan as a character. I love her. But the way she is wielded in Veilguard is terrible. She's just a vehicle through which the writers (we know who in particular) let the audience know that yes, everyone hates Solas, and the audience's hatred of him is Justified(tm).

Just like her snide little "Speaking from the heart, Inquisitor?" later at the final war council. God, I wanted to punch her. I bet a lot of people felt really vindicated by those lines and Morrigan's behavior, and I bet that was the plan.

(Sometimes I wonder how Trick really, in their heart of hearts, feels about all this. We'll never know, I don't feel I'm entitled to know, I would never ask - but I wonder.)

This whole scene is also terrible. Mostly because some people just don't have enough media literacy and sheer reading comprehension to understand that Solas is doing a bit here.

The game plays it off like he's "finally taking off the mask" - but that's not it. He's playing a character (look at those hands behind his back, he does that when he's insecure), he's performing the role of the villain that Rook needs to see to push them deeper into their own regret. They "lost to the villain and failed everyone". It doesn't work if Solas doesn't play the part. It doesn't work if it's a calm discussion.

Look at his fucking face:

That's not a sneering villain. That's sadness. That's pain. That's guilt. Funny how the character artists and mo-cap people knew exactly what they were doing, even as the narrative tries its damndest to work against them.

And the final nail in the coffin:

Yes, let's get this guy's former literal slave owner to talk him down. Let's act like even now, even millennia later, she is who gets to decide his fate.

Fucking look at this final, complete humiliation. In front of everyone - Rook, Morrigan, Lavellan/the Inquisitor, a bunch of other people - he is reliving all his trauma in real time and forced into submission. Because Mythal tells him to leave it.

As if to tell even an adoring Solavellan audience - who this ending was supposed to be for! - "Look how weak and pathetic your guy is, look how your love wasn't enough, watch us kick him in the ribs one last time!"

Don't get me wrong: I love the moments between Lavellan and Solas. I love his breathless little "Vhenan." I love their kiss. I love how she kneels down to him so their faces are level. I love that he's too afraid to take her hand as they walk through the rift. I love this ending.

I just hate that it all came with one last back-handed kick in the shin for Solas and for the Solavellan-minded player.

Okay. I'm done. I just had to word-vomit this somewhere, finally. I'm not trying to make anyone feel bad for enjoying Veilguard. I'm not saying people aren't allowed to enjoy Veilguard. I myself did enjoy Veilguard ffs. I played it twice, back to back, 160 hours. I have 4GB screenshots and a whole notebook with lore notes. My critique is coming from a place of genuine, deep love for the series as a whole and Solas specifically. So I hope people take it that way.

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