you can call me Mouse (or ‘tumblr user a-wins-a-win’ if that strikes ur fancy) - I use xe/they pronouns, should you feel the need to discuss me elsewhere <3
aside from standard character & reblog tags, my organisation extends to the following -
#fics-ation nation
general writer things - fic updates, complaining about writing being hard - all of my finished works can be found on my ao3 ! actual linked posts to new/completed fics will also be tagged under #shameless self promo
#you were the question
any asks will be answered with this tag! and I never don’t want to talk about bare so the askbox is always open
tangentially related is #conversational reblogs - fairly self explanatory, usually rb'ing a rb of my own post for the sake of responding
#mouse talks bapo
for any of my original thoughts/content
#bare 1999 / #bare the musical
i post about the demo tracks / the musical re-adaptation sometimes too, and they will be tagged accordingly
also #workshop reference if I am making specific reference to the NY workshop recording (which is pretty rare but it does happen)
psa that i visualise the bare characters in a very specific way that is entirely unfounded - so don’t necessarily expect physical descriptions that match any production in particular [that said my favourite production i have access to watch is b;apo indianapolis]
feel free to visit my main @thatsit-thatsthepost for non-bare posting - but also feel free not to, it’s ur life, ya know? in any case, i hope that while ur here you enjoy the blog <3
What if we were two sides of the same coin. What if i lived in your shadow all my life but found comfort in the darkness and dont know what to do once youre gone. What if youre the only person who understands. What if you have have no idea what i went through. What if we went through the same traumas but ended up with oposite conclusions about our suffering. What if i dont recognize you anymore. What if i see the ghost of my former self reflected through your eyes. What if it never had to go this way. What if this was the only way things were ever going to go
what do think about nadia's arc? is it well done or does she comes off as just stereotypical "funny fat girl"?
hey, thank you so much for the ask!
Nadia's a tricky one to me - i think there's so much complexity in the way she interacts with the others and the story that is sometimes lost when not fully embraced (*coughcough* not casting actually fat actresses *coughchough*).
For me personally I never feel like she's just funny, or just there as a comic relief - she's funny, for sure, and I think she does have to be because that's the way she's written, but to me she never comes across as just stereotypical "funny fat girl". She's given a lot more depth than that ; however, given how much of that comes from AQNAH one could argue she's more reflective of the stereotype of "self-hating fat girl", which is a problem in and of itself. The conversation then turns into one of 'does it count as "complexity" when it's just multiple stereotypes stacked on top of each other?'
And in regard to Nadia's arc being 'well-done', because there's so much nuance to her complexity, and because it can be so subtle, it doesn't necessarily feel like there's been any marked development or noticeable change by the end of the show outside of her and Ivy not hating each other anymore - and due to the nature of the show we don't spend a lot of time with solidifying that new dynamic outside of their interaction in 'Two Households'.
So in regard to Nadia's internal arc, I think her character is more than, and at least to me comes across as more than "funny fat girl" - but I'd certainly be open to hearing other people's interpretations!
have you watched "heated rivalry"? if yes, do you see any parallels to bare?
i have seen some people compare hollonov to gallavich( ian and mickey from u.s. shameless)
but watching the show made think about Peter and Jason's story and queer media in general, especially how the writing and reception of mlm stories by audiences have changed in just the past 2 decades.
what are your thoughts, if you have seen the show( if not, you should!😄)
oh hey! thanks so much for the ask!
I have not in fact seen Heated Rivalry - although it has been recommended to me through various channels, just never got around to it. I have however seen Shameless! and unfortunately for gallavich fans i am not that big on them; I see the appeal don't get me wrong, I just never found myself rooting for them in any really intense way. It has however been a while so potentially I'd have a different outlook upon revisiting the show.
and for sure, looking back on mlm representation, both passively and in expressly MLM stories it's so fascinating to see how the landscapes have changed - both within canon pieces and within fandom.
what are your thoughts on Tanya? do you think she has a more symbolic role in the show or she mostly just lucas's girlfriend and a bit more prominent than the other named girls in the enesemble?
hey 💫 ! thanks sooo much for the ask <3
ooh, what are my thoughts on Tanya? I think the way she's positioned, relative to Ivy in particular and as a parallel to the Romeo & Juliet of it all, there's definitely space to give her a larger - or at least more symbolic - role, but within the actual text of the show I never get the sense there's much deliberate effort put into expanding on that (at least for the productions I've seen).
I am gonna phone-a-friend for this one - @saint-starflicker has some so very interesting/compelling Tanya takes (especially as they relate to Tanya & Ivy's dynamic in particular), if Poe wants to put two cents in?
do you think Jason's death falls under "bury your gays"?
honestly I don't - and while I understand the sentiment I think it does the story a disservice. I don't doubt that the trope's prevalence informs interpretation, but I think with the themes of bare it's a somewhat simplistic take.
I don't think that the narrative is punishing Jason for coming to terms with his sexuality (if anything it's his refusal to come to terms with it that contributes more heavily) any more than the narrative is using Jason's death to punish Peter for reconciling his sexuality with his religion.
If bare were a side plot to any other story? I can see the interpretation feeling more grounded ; and in an abstract sense, within the wider media landscape of musical theater as a whole it can be a point in favour of 'bury your gays' prevalence as a trope.
But when it comes to b;apo as an individual entity, I think it's affording a negative connotation to something that doesn't warrant one.
not even watching or listening to quite literally just Thinking about bare again and i am vibrating. i can feel the adrenaline coursing through my veins. i’m gonna bite something.
what do you think about the common take that if sister Chantelle talked with Jason, it would change outcome of the story drastically or at least would have saved Jason's life?
personally, I always find that to be an over simplified easy fix that would not work in a pretty realistic story such as bapo,
in addition to ignoring the other factors to Jason's final decision besides father flynn horrible handling of his request for validation(ivy's pregnancy would definitely cause problems with his parents still,he was still outed to the whole school in a very traumatic way- I don't hate matt completely but I do hate him for that, he found out peter- after he pressureed him to come out- also outed him at least a few weeks ago AND to someone who at the very least resented him, no matter what- his parents would have not supported his true self and probably would react violently to it). the only people who were somewhat still supportive to him were nadia and lucas- and they also can't fix all this aforementioned massive problems.
so MAYBE if a teacher- authority figure- would also support him he would not have taken his life but there is also a possibility that talking to her instead of the priest would be too little, too late *at this point anyway.
sorry for this massive wall of text lol, what is your take?
nah dude don't apologise - love hearing everyone's b;apo takes! and i'm good! busy with work & my cats, but always have time for bare
this is one where I'm a bit like - maybe talking to Sister Chantelle would've saved Jason, in the sense that pretty significant chunks of things would have to be different within the story for Jason to be at a point where he would go to Sister Chantelle at all, and maybe THOSE differences would've changed the outcome more than Sister Chantelle individually could. I agree with you that to say "oh Jason should've gone to talk to Sister Chantelle instead" is a gross oversimplification of what is really a super duper precarious situation.
Which is not to dismiss the goodness she represents in the story in a lot of ways, or the positive impact she has on the other characters! And by other characters I mean Peter specifically, but even so - I just don't ever feel like she has the kind of relationship with Jason that would've facilitated him coming to her, especially not in that hour where he's under so much stress from rehearsals, where his role as Romeo in the play is just another expectation he's crumbling under the weight of.
Absolutely Sister Chantelle would be gentler on Jason than Father Flynn was, and that would've undoubtedly had some amount of positive impact, but I'm inclined to believe it would only make Peter's rejection in 'Two Households' more devastating. So ultimately while I understand the appeal of the concept, I think it's unrealistic to propose that anyone - Sister Chantelle or otherwise - could do any one thing differently in that final hour to change the outcome.
i read a few months(?) back your comparisons between melchior/wendla to jason/ivy that i find incredibly interesting( and validating tbh, I always found "one kiss" really uncomfortable no matter how it is staged because ivy's lyrics are... pretty bad)
i don't hate ivy (love her AND love analyzing her) and jason is not blameless, in general and in regards to his treatment of ivy later on, but seeing everyone agreeing that Jason cheated on Peter in one kiss and that apparently all ivy did wrong in this scene is "not being a mind reader"(?!?)
so no, actually, continuing on pressuring someone to kiss you after they already said no, very obviously tried to change the subject to move past it and finally said yes to ONE kiss after being coerced to (some productions have ivy pull him to another one) is not cheating and ivy being drunk is not an excuse. at least she apologized in "one"
sorry for this being so long, 😅 there barley any bare fans, so get excited to discuss it
no no don’t ever apologise, I love bare soooo much and I think there’s so much available to discuss that’s so interesting
I actually didn’t realise how much I missed it until i was writing that Father Flynn post haha - but!! I’m so so glad that my Ivy/Jason-Melchior/Wendla comparison landed! I feel sooo strongly about them; especially in the context of the show I got to see live where they made the (imo Very Good) decision to really play up the visceral discomfort of ‘One’
and like. I am such a Melchior-liker when it comes to Spring Awakening, so. Any excuse to talk about him as well haha
Ivy Robinson the tragedy that you are….. Jason McConnell and your subconscious desire to completely self-destruct while attempting to absolve yourself of all blame…… it was always gonna end badly for you two 💔
could you expand on your take that father Flynn though he was doing what was best for jason?
love your blog ⚘️
oh my goodness, hi!
thanks so much for the ask, and absolutely I can elaborate! under the cut just in case it turns out i go on for far too long
Full transparency, it's a take largely informed by the demo!Father Flynn characterization - I think scaling back his involvement was the right decision for b;apo 100%, however I do still think about 'Cut From The Same Cloth' every single day.
And I think it's also important to acknowledge it as a take on Father Flynn as an individual character, rather than as a symbolic one - where he's used within the text of the show as a symbol for The Church as an entity, on an individual level I think he does interact with the children with their best interests at heart, however misguided he may be by virtue of his dedication to his faith.
For me, a lot of it comes down to the specific way he dodges The Question as it's presented in 'Cross' ; I think Father Flynn wants Jason to come to his own conclusion, whatever conclusion that may be - and there's something in that, especially when played against the way that Jason's character is so burdened by the expectations of other people. For me 'Cross' is never framed - at least not in it's entirety - as an ultimatum until Jason himself makes it one.
It's always coming back to the "never spoken, always heard" of it all - I think the way Claire treats Peter in 'See Me' works really well as a parallel to the way Father Flynn treats Jason in 'Cross' ; but where Claire is afforded more nuance in the form of 'Warning' there's much less time spent with Father Flynn, and in fact 'Absolution' is the next time he's really present after 'Cross'.
Which is not to dismiss Claire as a character or her growth*, or to imply equivalence ; I'm just proposing that Claire's motivations for dodging Peter's attempts to come out to her mirror Father Flynn's motivations to dodge Jason's attempts to come out in the context of their conversation - "Mom, I'm-" "Peter, please [...]", as opposed to - "Do you know what I'm-" "Yes.".
Both adults know what is being said, and both adults know why it is being said as well. And while they may have different motivations as to ignoring the reality, and hence not entertaining the consequences of the situation, the implicit statement is still the same ; I don't want to face the consequences of you being Queer.
For Claire, that consequence is feeling as though she has to chose between her son and her religious beliefs.
The thing is, Father Flynn has already chosen his religion. I do believe he knows this, and similarly I believe he knows that some of the kids haven't - Peter & Matt in 'Confession', for example.
And I think connecting 'Cross' back to 'Confession' is a key point as it relates to the way Father Flynn interacts with the main cast as a whole - the way it's presented in 'Confession' is dismissive, played against the intensity of 'Cross' where confession is seen as a much more crucial moment. However, the message being relayed is ultimately the same.
"Questions of doctrine are best left to greater minds than yours" vs "You know in your heart that the teaching is clear" seem like statements at odds with one another, but at their core both are saying that the rules are in place for a reason - it's not Peter's or Matt's or Jason's job to think about why, and it's in their best interests to get used to that fact.
Father Flynn - and yes it's by virtue of his character's function as a stand in for The Church as an entity that he's painted as this perfect pious face - never reads to me as mean-spirited. Truly, it's not until the second half of 'Cross' where he's all but forced to give Jason the ultimatum he's seeking (because truthfully that's what it is - it varies from production to production, but by and large 'Cross' comes across as a final crossroads. By the end of the song Jason's decision is made - even given the context of 'Two Households', and the way his pleas to Peter to run away are framed, it is 'Cross' that is the point at which his fate is sealed).
We'll always ask ourselves, if there was something more that could have been done [...]
I've always interpreted that line in Absolution as genuine - I do think there's a tendency to take the concept that it was 'too little too late' and dismiss it from there, but you could argue the same for 'Two Households' and 'Bare', if you wanted to.
*The actuality of Claire's growth being its own conversation, of course.
I know this is a topic that does require a lot of nuance, and I wouldn't claim my interpretation as more valid than any other ; I have never been religious, so I fully acknowledge that I may be missing some of the wider context from living in that environment that would inform a different conclusion.
But yeah - I think within the wider context if the show Father Flynn doesn't even have innate motivations, he exists as necessary to explore the themes (much like the Adults in Spring Awakening - they're symbolic more than genuine explorations of individual characters) - but if he did have innate motivation, it would be the motivation to keep those kids on the 'right' path, because he truly believes in God's word and in His innate goodness.
