wait actually if eve eating the apple was what allowed evil onto earth. what if instead of immediately becoming corrupted, heaven turned her into roo as punishment after death, with roo being her sinner form. forcing her to act as a host to what she invited in, not caring whether or not it was actually her fault. cause she and adam aren’t mentioned to have had kids before they got kicked out of eden, but she sorta has to have had kids, so her corruption wasn’t like an immediate thing.
also. that would be really fucked up and make her a way more sympathetic character. imagine doing everything right as one of the founders of humanity, only making one (1) mistake, but because of that mistake you’re basically tortured forever, forced to act as the physical host for the concept of evil. nothing mattered except for that one. thing. i'd lose it too
Hazbin establishes very strong parallels between Charlie and Vaggie’s relationship and Lucifer and Lilith’s.
Charlie being as to Lucifer, the fantastical dreamer discouraged and rejected by the world around them.
Vaggie being as to Lilith, someone who failed their assigned role and were driven out of ‘paradise’ (Heaven/Eden) by someone they should have been able to trust (Lute/Adam).
In their most vulnerable moments Lucifer and Charlie find them, love blossoming between each pair because they defied the norm, Lucifer and Lilith being rebellious in a world of order and Charlie and Vaggie being kind in a world of cruelty.
Though at the same time, Charlie is to Lilith while Vaggie is to Lucifer.
“This kingdom was something she really cared about. Something I care about.”
Charlie acknowledges she is the last thread of the hope her mother gave to Hell all those thousands of years ago. The responsibility to her home Charlie puts on her shoulders is born from the love Lilith had for it. She is directly following in her mother’s footsteps, truly believing her people deserve better and that they’re worth fighting for.
Then there is their partners, the fallen angels who don’t share their love’s connection to Hell. Lucifer saw sinners as horrible people who wasted the gift he went to Hell for giving them. Vaggie always kept everyone not named Charlie a spear’s distance away, treating them as people she tolerated but never trusted for a moment. Despite what Heaven had done, had done to them, they were still thinking like angels.
(Though, these mentalities would change throughout the first season, Lucifer choosing to support Charlie no matter what and Vaggie accepting the hotel crew as a part of the in-group which she wishes to protect)
Lucifer’s distaste for his people, not fighting alongside Lilith’s rebellion and instead agreeing to the exterminations, seems to be why they eventually split, despite the love they held for each other. In extreme contrast, Vaggie always supporting Charlie is what keeps them together despite bumps in their relationship. Vaggie always chose to believe in and support Charlie and that means the world and more to Charlie, who spent so much of her life unsupported.
The show also juxtaposes Lucifer’s parental love for Charlie with Vaggie’s romantic love for her, most prominently with Vaggie starting the reprise of More Than Anything to express her love as Lucifer did originally.
(They’re also just. Charlie and Lilith being these tall powerful demon women with Vaggie and Lucifer being their short and tiny fallen angel loves)
What becomes interesting is during the finale when Lucifer (very strongly, very tastefully) implies he ate out Adam’s first wife before fucking his second.
This seems to based on sexual interpretations of original sin. However, in Hazbin we are very much lead to believe the Fruit of Knowledge is a literal apple. Given that Lilith is said to have also offered the apple to Eve, I doubt the implication is that Luci had any sort of one night stand with Eve. Rather, I think Lilith, Eve, and him were once, or attempted to be, in a romantic relationship.
(Considering Eve was made to be Adam’s lesser and Lucifer and Lilith shared the gift of free will with her specifically, I do wonder if Eve had fallen in love with the two, but was unable to leave Adam. The Fruit of Knowledge being given to her so she would be able to be free and join their relationship, but ultimately resulted in their separation as Lucifer and Lilith were casted into Hell)
Which certainly has implications about the future of Charlie and Vaggie’s relationship.
I think the show has actually set very compelling parallels between Eve and Emily.
Much as Lucifer shared forbidden knowledge with Eve, it’s Charlie’s actions that revealed the hidden truth of Heaven’s exterminations. There’s the specific ‘free will’ which Eve was gifted, which fits with Charlie’s influence giving Emily the ‘free will’ to defy Sera and act against Heaven.
I’ve also talked before about the possibility Emily was brought into existence to fill Lucifer’s place in Heaven. Considering the protective relationship Sera has with Emily, along with her looks of genuine horror at her acting against Heaven, it brings to mind the idea Sera has been fearful that Emily would fall just as Lucifer did for Emily’s entire existence, and as such raised her to be more likely to never stray from Heaven as Lucifer did. Which could add to why Sera hid Heaven’s genocide from her despite Emily being a high ranking seraphim; she couldn’t risk giving Emily a reason to rebel.
Which would be a very striking analogue between the two. Both living replacements for the fallen, born into someone else’s shadow to take their place, intended to be the more docile and proper version of Lilith and Lucifer, less likely to stray from the roles they were created to fill. Though, of course, we know Eve fell to temptation and maybe-probably-definitely left or tried to leave Adam, and that Emily is walking the edge.
(Emily having ties to both Lucifer and Eve seems relevant with how Charlie and Vaggie each have parallels to Lucifer and Lilith. Perhaps in her fall, we’ll see Emily ‘thrive in Hell’ just as Lilith did, and similarities between Charlie and Vaggie to Eve will pop up the more we learn about her?)
What’s also interesting is that Eve ‘falling into temptation’ (choosing Lucifer and Lilith over her preordained role) is what separated her from them. However, if Emily were to choose supporting Charlie’s dream over her place in Heaven, then her falling would be what brought her to Charlie and Vaggie. Thereby their situation acts as a foil to the previous generation’s.
And Emily supporting Charlie is very relevant. In More Than Anything we get the exchange of:
“I’ll support your dream whatever lies in store.”
“And who could ask for more?”
Because Charlie can’t think of anything more she could ask. Charlie’s idea of love and being loved is so heavily based on support and being supported. It’s a part of the conflict in Hell’s Greatest Dad, that Lucifer is being genuine and Alastor manipulative, but Alastor is the one actually providing Charlie with what she asks of him, which Lucifer never has. Charlie shows her love for Hell by believing in them, that they can improve, they deserve safety, and they have worth. It’s why Vaggie’s love is so important to Charlie, because for a long time, she was the only one believing in her.
And what does Emily do?
“I don’t know-”
“Yeah, let’s give him a chance!”
She supports Charlie! She believes and trusts her and argues on her behalf. She’s the only angel in Heaven to have faith in Charlie’s dream. Having Emily in the position of a fallen angel, falling right into Charlie’s arms, Charlie caring for her and nursing her back to health, with her being someone who very deeply believes in her, would be the same conditions that made Charlie fall in love with Vaggie three years ago.
Then for Vaggie, Emily also has a lot of the textbook traits that she loves Charlie for. The overexcited-ness, the care she has for others, even the way she doesn’t pull rank. And what she hasn’t expressed, that being seeing value in Vaggie where she herself does not, it feels natural that Emily would express that in the way Charlie does upon learning Vaggie’s history. We’ve seen her sense of justice and her horror at Heaven’s actions, so her deeply sympathizing with Vaggie would be entirely expected, and would be a very easy way for Vaggie to catch feelings for Emily.
However, there is this:
Which suggests the direction of a jealous Vaggie. I think that works, at least initially, with Vaggie feeling insecure in her relationship with Charlie after Emily falling and being cared for by Charlie in the way she was all that time ago. Those feelings heavily changing however, at the realization that Emily is crushing on her just as much as she is Charlie and how deeply relatable to her Emily’s circumstances and trauma would be.
Then on Emily’s side, not only would she have very much been thinking and focusing on Charlie prior to her fall, once she does, she lands in a very emotionally volatile situation where Charlie and Vaggie are supporting her so much and caring for her so deeply. It makes sense that this would translate to her developing feelings for the both of them.
(Now, this is a bit less definitive, but with Emily’s design, the long hair and dress that covers every inch of her short of her fingers, and Heaven being a stand in for the imperialist church, I do read the coming-of-age story the show has set up for her to be one of a conservative christian raised girl striking out of the doctrine she grew up in and finding community in the people her home had demonized, or at least an allegory for such. So having her develop romantic feelings for two ‘vile and blasphemous’ women in a very non-monogamous way would be very thematically relevant I think)
I would say this all works great as an analogue to Lucifer, Lilith, and Eve. Eve being in the unfortunate situation of Adam’s wife but finding comfort in Lucifer and Lilith and falling for the both of them as Emily would as a fallen angel being comforted by Charlie and Vaggie. Lucifer seeing Lilith reflected in Eve and caring for and helping her as he did before being parallel to Charlie helping Emily as she did Vaggie. Lilith initially feeling negativity towards the woman made to replace her bond so closely with her new love, only to realize Eve is falling for her just as much as she is for Lucifer and empathizing with Eve’s situation so deeply, just like Vaggie.
Then, there’s Adam and Lute. I already mentioned that they play parallel with forcing Lilith and Vaggie out of their respective paradises. Their dynamics are built on Adam and Lute punishing, and their domination over, Lilith and Vaggie, because they need to know their place: beneath them. (There’s also the interpretation of that Lute had or has romantic feelings for Vaggie, which is certainly relevant) The show is being very clear with Lute being Adam’s successor I feel, with her taking on his position as leader of the exorcists following his death.
Then, her line: “Your brat is threatening the very foundation of Heaven.” Personally, that makes me think of a sediment Adam would feel towards Lucifer. That’s he is the source of every problem, that he stole his wives (ignoring that Lilith left him before even meeting Luci), and that he destroyed paradise, Eden. Now that Vaggie and Lute’s conflict has seemingly come to a close, I think the show will be shifting to a Lute vs Charlie conflict, much as Adam shifted from Lilith to his hatred for Lucifer.
Now, if the show wants to push a Adam-Eve dynamic with Lute and Emily, what I could imagine is Lute protecting onto Emily in a very one sided way, where she thinks Charlie has ‘corrupted’ the seraphim (threatening heaven’s foundation) and she must personally ‘save’ her, which would very much align with how Adam would feel towards Lucifer’s influence on Eve.
Now, we can tell that Lucifer, Lilith, and Eve’s relationship Did Not pan out particularly well. So I think much like how Charlie and Vaggie have succeeded where Lilith and Lucifer failed, Charlie, Vaggie, and Emily is going to be the successful foil to their attempted relationship. Then for Lute, I think it becomes a question of: does she accept the olive branch Adam did not, does she eventually understand that she is doing wrong, does she accept mercy, or does she continue down Adam’s path, digging her own grave as he did; except that unlike Adam, there won’t be anyone to cry for her?
And y’know, the angel and 3 immortal humans versus the demon/half immortal human and 3 angels serves as a nice counter.
idk where else to ramble about this so im just gonna scream it into the void: nobody give me the “eve cheated on adam” or “eve is roo” or “eve is the main villain” shit, the justifications behind all of that is paper thin with just 8 episodes to draw from where eves name isn’t even mentioned once
instead i need vivzie to slap some dimension onto adam for once and give him an actual meaningful relationship and someone he actually cares about instead of making him one dimensional misogynist white bro character #85729
give me adam choosing exterminations as his revenge for Lucifer and Lilith doing something awful to his family. give me eve not showing up in heaven and adam shows up expecting to be in paradise with the woman he spent a thousand years of life with, only to be left alone and reasoning that she must be trapped in hell out of his reach, fueling his anger. yet another thing taken from him as a result of lucifer and liliths actions, and it’s the straw that breaks the camels back
give me adams eyes scanning the crowds of terrified sinners as he prepares to wipe them out, seeing if he can catch a glimpse of those eyes once more. give me adam always subtly looking around in search of something whenever he’s down there.
give me adam and liliths deal relating to information about eve
eve was literally made FROM him, u CANNOT tell me she is not and has not ALWAYS been His Girl. whether they’re together or physically parted. chalk it up to his narcissism or call it soulmates but please-
let this dumbass evil wannabe rocker boy have his cottage core wife who acts as his one connection to humanity in the face of all that he’s suffered through with lucifer and lilith
thank you for coming to my Ted talk, in this 20 part series i will-
(also if someone wants to send me some fics relating to this id appreciate that-)
I once read somewhere that the reason Adam is against redemption, is that if Eve doesn’t deserve to be redeemed, then no one else does… And that has stuck with me :’)
(rant because I've seen some horribly callous takes recently)
No one can be gay if they're dead.
And no one can live happily, freely, with enough peace and stability to even begin to flourish in their own identity or question their own prejudices under war, trauma, and constant oppression.
That second paragraph is for y'all who think "homophobes"(quotations bc this label being put on Palestinians, and Arabs in general is indeed a generalization meant to dehumanize them) don't deserve human rights.
Newsflash, they do. We got a lot of bigots and homophobes that would violently hurt the queer community right here at home in the USA. And that doesn't do shit about them deserving housing or food or water. Flint, Michigan could be full of homophobes for all I care and I'd still tell you that it's beyond fucked that they don't have clean water access, BECAUSE THEY'RE HUMAN. (Like literally this is the most fundamental level of human needs, and the basis for even getting to a place where you can self actualize! Maslow's Hierarchy y'all! This kids and people do not have their basic needs, or guaranteed safety under oppression!)
How many of us queers, let alone our allies, we're born in households or communitiea that were bigoted? Did that make us less human? If we died for that reason, or as children, we would have never had the opportunity to be queer. Many of us, had to find peace from bad environments or households, before we could fully adopt or even understand our identities, don't you think the same would be even more true for kids who have endured war after war? Rehousing after rehousing? Death after death, while the sounds of drones play day and night? (Like there is a privilege in being able to grow, literally and spiritually, there's a privilege in being able to find and reinvent yourself. Instead Palestinians are finding parts of their loved ones among the ruins. Instead they're dying young and never growing up.)
Y'all don't wanna actually discuss the issues with pink washing, or how Israel isn't even the champion of the gays like they're tryna PR like, y'all just want to use it as another excuse to overlook this genocide.
Queer Palestinians exist, and have been speaking about (BEFORE 2023!) how their queer identity does not conflate with the overarching need for Palestinian Liberation. So many of them have shared their lovely stories of how accepted they are in their community, in their places of worship even! But again, Y'ALL DON'T WANNA ACTUALLY HAVE THIS CONVERSATION IN EARNEST, Y'ALL JUST WANT AN EXCUSE TO LOOK THE OTHER WAY.
Your fellow Queer Community Members are under the rubble.
They weren't killed for being gay, or sapphic, or trans. They were killed for being Palestinians. They weren't killed by the "barbaric, children of darkness, Arabs", they were brutally killed by the IDF.
This happens with your tax dollars, and with the permission of your turned heads.
Hey everyone, please consider buying the 2024 itch.io Palestinian Relief Bundle- it's 373 games, game-making assets, tabletop roleplaying games, zines, and comics for a minimum of just 8 USD! They have a goal of 100,000 USD, and as of the time I'm writing this post, they have 8 more days to reach it.
Amazing news!! They reached their goal of 100,000 USD! There is now a second goal of 250,000 USD! Remember, this is 373 games, assets, and comics for a minimum of 8 USD- a bundle of items which would normally be ~1,667 USD! Let's reach that second goal as quickly as we reached the first goal!
Fantastic news!!! The 250,000 USD goal has been met, and there is now a third goal of 500,000 USD! The deadline has also been extended, and as of the time I'm writing this update, there is 13 more days to reach their newest goal!
The money raised so far has already been incredible. Let's maintain this energy and continue to provide support for the PCRF!
…what even is Eurovision? I’ve never seen it outside of gifs on tumblr and I thought it was like drag race karaoke or some shit. The fact that it is like some world event and Israel, allegedly a Middle East Country is in a European thing confuses me.
Essentially it's a MASSIVE musical event in Europe that pits bands and musicians from different countries against each other, all with very out there practical effects, but it's not just European countries taking part. This is mostly because there's some complex web of broadcasting rights, that let's Australia and Israel participate.
However, they've in the past banned countries for the acts if their government. Best example is Russia, who were banned from the competition in 2022 due to the invasion on Ukraine. However, Israel is allowed to participate despite their own invasion on a debatably larger scale. The reason given was "to stay non-political", but this is just false, and contradicts their stance on Russia.
Hence the boycott, it's letting Israel play propaganda to a stage of millions, and a boycott is a fucking MASSIVE deal. I can't stress enough how popular this event is in Europe. It's in the ball park of the superbowl. This will hurt them and it will hurt them hard. Several countries like Ireland and the hosts of the year Sweden are arguing they should pull out entirely and are under pressure to do so.
He's told me before that it's like a knee-jerk for him. Something he doesn't consciously control. He sees two men behaving romantically, and his body reacts with mild discomfort.
In the 1960s, when he was in high school, most of the boys in his form thought he was gay on the simple fact that he wasn't homophobic. He wouldn't participate in insulting queer people, he didn't care if someone was gay, he wouldn't have a problem hanging out with gay people. So people thought he was gay. That's how prevalent homophobia was in his formative years.
When I was 10, my dad told me very seriously that Holmes and Watson were gay. That it was obvious from the literature and the time period that they were meant to be a gay couple. When I was 14 and I came out to my parents as bi, when my mum was upset my dad ripped into her for it. Told her that she was being stupid, that it was my life to live how I wanted to and that she needed to get over herself.
My dad formed my views on censorship: that being that it was completely ridiculous and thoroughly evil. He didn't believe in censorship of any kind. If I asked him a question about sex, he answered it honestly. When I was 12 and I asked him about homosexuality, still young and uncertain, he told me that there was nothing wrong with it. That it was just how some people were. That there was likely an evolutionary reason for it. And that for some people it was uncomfortable on an instinctual level.
He taught me that just because you're uncomfortable with something, doesn't make it wrong. He also taught me that most people don't understand this.
I see a lot of this on the internet as of the last few years. The anti shipping movement, the terf movement, the anti ace movement. It all stems from discomfort that people have crossed wires into believing means wrong. Really every -ism and -phobia out there stems from this same fundamental aspect of humanity.
The next time you see something and you automatically think it's disgusting, or wrong, or immoral, I invite you to ask yourself: is this actually wrong or does this just make me uncomfortable?
Speaking as someone who saw the aftereffects of the Civil Rights Movement firsthand, let me just add: telling someone to simply get over being uncomfortable has never worked and will never work. It's not as simple as flipping a switch. Implying that it's that simple only breeds resentment and makes people less likely to accept whatever it is that they are hesitant to accept.
Why does this feel like a neurodivergent introspective stream-of-consciousness type of thing 😭 It’s so all over the place, it should not feel this relatable and I should not be able to understand this, but somehow I do ;-;
sometimes, burying your gays is not only okay, but critically necessary to telling a good story and honouring your thematic arcs. and "good representation" is an undefinable, largely useless pursuit.
Adding onto this with my warm take, yes, it's true that cis-straight people will never get how the actual queer experience is like and they do have to do their research if they want to delve deeper into our issues, however, banning them from writing about these topics at all like I've seen some people indirectly claiming feels wrong to me and might be a slippery slope into enforcing allocisheteronormativity in media.
Same thing I say when people ask about disabled characters, just treat us as characters. We're people, we have imperfections and tridimensionality.
@juanathefunkyfish, how does it feel to be the most correct person to add an addition onto this post?
anyone of any identity should be allowed to write/make art about anything—yes, even if it’s about a sensitive identity-topic that they have no lived experience in.
if people want to judge their end product afterwards, and criticize a work for being offensive, by all means! but the criticism must first be directed at the work, and what error has been made in its creation—not on the artist for making the work in the first place.
we can’t disallow straight writers from creating queer characters, or white writers from creating IBPOC characters (etc.), without inadvertently discouraging imaginative empathy, and strangling diverse storytelling.
