there is interesting johndean subtext and insinuations across kripke era, usually through an antagonist insinuating parent-child sexual violence in order to exert dominance over dean. this type of mockery exploits that ambiguous relationship between john and dean and reminds dean that he never had a normal relationship with his father, and that makes him gross and wrong. it doesn't actually matter in the end whether john was sexually abusive to dean. the core of their relationship was damning enough: dean was made to take the place of john's wife—to comfort john and raise sam—while simultaneously being his son. the codependent nature of their relationship implies the incest that underscores their dynamic. again, this is regardless of what literally occurred between dean and john because there is enough doubt toward the nature of their relationship that multiple antagonists can use it against them.
sonwife, brotherhusband—dean is stuck in a liminal space between family and lover and is unable to put his feet firmly on just one side and instead has to accept both together or abandon both together. he doesn't get to have a relationship with his family without it being simultaneously incestuous. he plays the role of wife to john and mother to sam as mary's replacement; he therefore becomes more than a son and transcends the boundaries of the familial into the incestuous. it's baked into the dynamic and he can't hope to escape the liminality in which he's stuck without abandoning his entire family altogether.
this ambiguous relationship is further acted out with sam, where people perceive them as lovers rather than brothers; where their mutual devotion trumps, neglects, and disallows any other close relationship outside each other; where their physical closeness is viewed through an unusually sexual lens despite no literal sex acts between them taking place on screen. once again dean is stuck in a liminal space, paralleling the ambiguous and uncertain relationship he had with john.
in the end, sex (and sexual violence) is just a symbol of this codependency and uncertainly incestuous dynamic. sex acts in kripke era end up being symbolic: misinterpretations of sam and dean's relationship; accusations of sexual violence; literal, on-screen sexual moments between the brothers and someone else. it's a literary device that highlights the incestuous themes of the show. dean hand-picks women for sam to fuck because it allows dean to be symbolically part of sam's sex life. henricksen accuses john of raping dean because it is a symbol of the unhealthy, codependent relationship dean had with his father. the samulet stays on during sex because sam is symbolically integral to dean's sexual gratification (seen too in the way both dean and cassie in 1.13 appear to kiss the amulet at least once in the dark room). sex is used to signify more than what's literally on the screen, and the connections between the literal sex acts and the blurred lines of dean's familial relationships allow for a reading of incest between both john and dean and sam and dean.
it never mattered whether johndean or samdean had a sexual relationship in the canon because that was never the point. the point is the liminality that permeates the narrative. sam, dean, and john all stand upon a threshold between acceptable and taboo. the point of it all is the doubt and anxiety, the are-they-aren't-they that is never answered. the absence of incest within the text invites the understanding that the incest was, in fact, always there.
being a multishipper is great until someone asks you which peter parker ur talking about and you have to explain that the only image of peter you have in ur head is a vague mashup of the comics some fanart and like three different pretty boys found on pinterest bc that’s the only way he fits with every character you ship him with
Genuinely no one gaf but i hc that edo tensei doesnt actually bring people back, its just a replica or husk of them when they were last alive. You could bring a loved one back but its just a clone, the zombie jutsu isnt actually them returning to you
tobirama sold to one direction the uchiha clan trope would be good if it focused more on the total power exchange it implies with hashirama. but in a good way and not a “poor woobie tobirama everybody hates him waaaaahhhh :(“ type of way. do you hear me
it’s hashirama having complete ownership and control over tobirama that gets me. like, a parent arranging a marriage for their child is still messed up and overrides the child’s autonomy, but there’s something about transferring that power to the next of kin that makes me go fully crazy. hashirama and tobirama were butsuma’s property, essentially, and hashirama gets free while tobirama just gets passed on down
I kind of want to either write or read a time travel fix-it fic where it's Tobirama who travels back in time - BUT it's not Tobirama's POV. He's only a side character. It's mainly focused on Madara and Hashirama. Occasionally Mito, Izuna, Touka
This post got real fucking long so here's a read more
Just a really funny fic where you never quite get to see what Tobirama is doing, because he's not the POV character and the other characters don't know/don't pay attention to what he's up to. But like he is doing important stuff yk he's taking advantage of that future knowledge
For example:
Madara and Hashirama meeting at the river. They've figured out/confessed to their respective clans and are discussing peace and who in their clan might or might not support them
Madara asks about Tobirama and Hashirama is like "Hm? Tobirama? Honestly I don't think he cares about the Senju-Uchiha war at all. He's far too occupied with his own war against the mold youkai."
"....The what?"
(It's not too obvious from Hashirama's POV that Tobirama keeps sneakily fucking up Zetsu's machinations, but what's significantly more difficult to ignore is that Tobirama is increasingly getting ambushed by White Zetsu drones ('mold youkai') - that he eliminates with extreme prejudice and alarming fury)
Just, stuff like that. Main plot is making peace, focused on most of the main family EXCEPT Tobirama (who is otherwise occupied and is thus rarely focused on much) and possibly Izuna. So it's all stuff about battles between the Senju and Uchiha, probably having to deal with internal issues as well (Butsuma/Tajima? Elders? Coup/assassination attempts?) and plotting how they could possibly get peace, it's stuff like negotiating with the Uzumaki + Mito's marriage to Hashirama, it's the Uchiha having to deal with one of their allied clans turning on them (barely noticed sub-plot during this where Tobirama is trying to prevent/rectify the sabotage Zetsu did to the Uchiha's fancy tablet), it's about planning for their eventual village (Hashirama finds notes on plumbing on his desk, written in Tobirama's hand - when the fuck did he have time for that? where did he even learn about plumbing?), it's about trying to get the Daimyo on side, it's about all the politics of trying to get other clans to move into the village too, it's about ah fuck bloodline thieves discovered there were plans for a shinobi village in the works and are doing a frantic attempt to kidnap/'harvest' as much as possible before the bloodline clans are too protected in the planned village so now we have to deal with this fucking trafficking ring...
The sub-plot is an Tobiizu fic where Izuna is (correctly) CONVINCED that Tobirama is Up To Something, and (incorrectly) decided it's malicious to the Uchiha et al, and has taken it upon himself to investigate and Stop Tobirama's Evil Plans At All Costs
Longsuffering Tobirama is far too busy for Izuna's bullshit. He's attempting to prevent/stop/counteract Zetsu's machinations, he's trying to kill Zetsu, he's trying to destroy the big old statue (yk the one I mean, idk what it's called, if it has a name), he's trying to make sure the bijuu are all safe and Won't get sealed into jinchuuruki OR the aforementioned statue...
(he gets distracted for a bit with a side project wherein he decides actually it would be really funny for him to convert the cave the big statue was in, into a place for the kyuubi to hang out. that takes him quite a while since he has to run Zetsu out (so many White Zetsu drones...), destroy the statue, alter the place accordingly, and then find and convince the kyuubi that actually this is a great idea - without the kyuubi just fucking eating him)
...he's trying to make life easier for Madara and Hashirama (oh, Butsuma died from a mysterious illness right before he could enact his incredibly stupid plan against the Uchiha? damn. what a shame. anyway-), he's having to reinvent everything he remembers from last time he lived through this shit because whilst some of those jutsus/techniques/inventions (cough, Edo Tensei, cough) aren't strictly necessary, some of them are VERY MUCH NEEDED
That takes. So much time. Luckily Tobirama doesn't have to do all the research over again, since he remembers it and it's incredibly unlikely anyone will call him out on it (....except Mito with regards to certain seals. he very begrudgingly does research and writes notes and invents plausible-mistakes-that-could-have-been-a-first-attempt) so for the most part he can skip straight to inventing or writing out the final project/knowledge
Some of Zetsu's machinations are incredibly annoying to counter, actually. Like at some point the blasted weed installed/had nearly installed a puppet ruler in Land of Water which, what? Why? Urgh
(Please imagine the absolutely incredible amounts of suspicion and incredulous disbelief and paranoia etc that Izuna is aiming Tobirama's way once he (eventually) discovers that the 'White Demon' is seemingly MESSING WITH POLITICS RE: WHO RULES A FOREIGN NATION?!?!?! is nobody else seeing this!! Izuna is NOT CRAZY look at this bullshit somebody needs to stop him-!)
So long story short Tobirama has a LOT on his plate and he is so so incredibly stressed. Somebody help this man. None of this shit is helped by the fact that
a) Zetsu realised very rapidly that someone was fucking with his plans, and promptly started trying to kill Tobirama off, or failing that, sabotage Tobirama's plans in turn
(thus the years long and increasingly violent 'war against mold youkai' that starts when Tobirama is like, ridiculously young, and Hashirama casually mentions to Madara)
b) Izuna. Just, Izuna. He's fucking obsessed with Tobirama (why) and also the most paranoid person ALIVE it sometimes seems, and he just, won't stop, sticking his nose in Tobirama's business, how does he seem to be fucking EVERYWHERE doesn't he have anything else to do it's not like Izuna even knows the shadow clone jutsu how is he doing this why-
(Izuna like. What could possibly be more important to my rival than ME. And anyway he can't possibly be doing anything GOOD so it's for the best I intervene really this is entirely altruistic-)
c) amongst all this, Tobirama still has to somehow maintain at least a vague, plausibly deniable, belief that he's like. A regular person, involved in only normal things. Because if anyone finds out what he's really doing, or what Zetsu really is, or that he's from the future (IZUNA GET YOUR NOSE OUT OF-), then that introduces just. SO MANY new moving parts and this is already fucking complicated enough as it is, alright? Yeah yeah yeah teamwork makes the dream work, two heads are better than one, etc, but this is essentially a war of information and manipulation between Zetsu and Tobirama and when your main power is info+manipulation the fucking LAST thing you want is more moving parts + more people who could leak info/know your info/unintentionally fuck up your (future) knowledge. No. As much as possible he has to do this on his own. Which means he needs to act like he's doing nothing at all. Actually spend time with his family, be seen running normal missions sometimes, help in clan matters, attend the Senju-Uchiha battles when relevant...
Which is all really really hard when there's only so much time in the day. And Zetsu doesn't have to worry about 'spending time with family' or anything so any time Tobirama spends doing that instead of working towards destroying Zetsu's shit is-
(thank fuck Tobirama still remembers how he invented shadow clones, is all he can say. thank fuck for that)
Over time Tobirama increasingly gets a handle on his terrifyingly long to-do list, which means that 'Izuna is being really annoying and following me almost all the time' moves up his priority list. Eventually Tobirama figures out that the easiest way to get Izuna to stop GETTING IN THE GODDAMN WAY is to just. Humour him. Give him attention. Yes yes you are the most important person in my life and all this inconvenient shit is just stopping me from devoting my energy to fighting you now if you could just put that lady over there under a genjutsu and- (Tobirama trying to get Izuna to help un-fuck Land of Water, it only sort of works)
At some point they fuck because Tobirama's stress levels are at an all-time high and he needs SOME sort of outlet. (Could be entirely sane+consensual (relatively. given who we're talking about) or it could be dubcon) and Izuna actually chills the fuck out for an entire ten hours afterwards. Amazing. Clearly they'll have to do this again
So they do
(yandere4yandere tobiizu for the win. Tobirama starts out normal (again, relatively, considering who we're talking about) whilst Izuna approached everything about Tobirama in a completely sideways obsessive way from the start, but Tobirama gradually starts to also get more obsessive/possessive over time. Like what do you mean the one person who has followed me unquestioningly for years and wants to kill me and kissed me yesterday and volunteered to help me fight a bijuu might LEAVE?? no. fuck you)
(Izuna with a hiraishin marker tattoo-)
anyway back to 'things even further complicating Tobirama's life':
optional letter d) Tobirama is trying so hard to seem normal and not like he's from the future or fighting an evil mold-plant-creature that wants to revive his mom from the moon. So, so hard. But alas, facts work against him
Like, I mean, imagine from an in-universe perspective. There's this guy with really weird colouring, he's known as the 'White Demon', he's better at suiton than anyone else alive and if you've seen him even SLIGHTLY try it's terrifying (think: drowning on dry land, sudden rain/storm/tsunami, blood ripped from a dozen bodies in half as many seconds-), there's? more than one of him? HOW IS THAT POSSIBLE and he's so fucking hard to kill but even when you kill him he just. doesn't. die. (friendly reminder that Tobirama is abusing shadow clones like nobody's business in an attempt to stay on top of his insane amount of work to do -> yk, the jutsu he invented, that doesn't work like any other clone jutsu, and that in this timeline he has thus far told nobody about. someone destroys a shadow clone and is incredibly alarmed that theres 1) no corpse 2) the White Demon is STILL ALIVE after they KNOW they killed him?!)
There's also rumours about him fighting/negotiating with bijuu, and quite a few witnesses to his ongoing war with 'mold youkai'
The majority of people (excepting like, people he's close to in his own clan, plus Izuna and possibly a few others) aren't sure he ever sleeps or eats or drinks, and wounds don't seem to last long (healing jutsu from the future + whilst he's sleeping/eating his shadow clone(s) are still out and about)
Then there's the insane amount of knowledge and jutsu and inventions he offers-
Long story short on top of everything else, Tobirama doesn't have to deal with people knowing he's from the future or about the whole issue with Zetsu
....He DOES have to deal with basically svery person in existence being 100% convinced he's not human, though
The epilogue is the modern day academy trying to teach about Tobirama and it’s all wrong. Tobirama was obsessed with the moon and wanted to turn it into a bijuu. Everytime a clone died it turned into a plant yokai that tried to kill him. Tobirama had a hate-fling with the ruler of the land of water, with Izuna bravely trying to drag him home. Tobirama was obsessed with yokai, bijuu, and the shinigami to the point of wanting to achieve immortality.
Obito, who just woke up from dying to Kaguya and thinks he’s in a fix-it-au is freaking out.
Rewriting Izuna's paranoia in regards to Tobirama getting involved with international politics, to him bravely dragging Tobirama home from a hate-fling? That's good that made me laugh
Also honestly Tobirama might not have had every (shadow) clone immediately turning into a mold/plant youkai set on killing him but I bet it sure FELT LIKE IT at some points jfbsjnf
Good point! They're very reminiscent of Tobirama and Hashirama's dynamic in some ways, and while I have an ambivalent relationship with a lot of late canon (and early canon and middle ca-) I did like some aspects of Hashirama and Madara's fight, and you could definitely do some parallel specifically about Hashirama choosing to kill Madara to protect the village + Danzo being involved with the massacre of the Uchiha in general later on
genuinely the more I think about Danzo and Hiruzen's deal the more I'm like. you guys are fucking insane. No other village is doing this shit. Onoki doesn't have a guy he puts in charge of all the betrayals, every other village stuck with the kage directly running their secret police, nobody has a second, secret-er police, etc.
Speculating, you can see how it'd be a benefit in building Konoha's We're The Nice Ones rep to have their shady work even more deeply buried, with the fascinating implication of Danzo serving the same role in-canon as he does out of it - there's a scene in the anime once where Hiruzen makes it clear that he needs something done, and he's going to use his ANBU to do it, but Danzo is going to actually, out loud, give the order because his job is to be the mythic 'one guy who's responsible for everything'. If something bad comes out it can be blamed on him, and as long as it's not too bad you can just put him under house arrest or hide him for a bit until the matter blows over, with Hiruzen (hopefully) remaining a morally upright figure in people's minds.
(Tangent here that it's interesting that a Root member in the Itachi Shinden books, which I mostly thought were terrible but had a couple neat things, described Danzo's role as essentially holding all the 'darkness' of the village, and stated he couldn't be killed without that darkness spilling out and making everything worse. That combined with Danzo using a final jutsu that attempted to seal whatever he was fighting within his own body, gives Danzo some quasi-jinchuuriki symbolism. Plus he's linked to Madara by the flashback where he and Hiruzen sit on the cliff and Danzo's in his place... the guy just picked every founder to be somewhat similar to lol)
Anyway, then I just wind back at 'Who looks at their two predecessors and goes 'I can't handle this workload. Time to hire my frenemy as my Jungian shadow self' and who, in response to this plan, is like 'oh you want to split the traits and jobs of the former Hokages between us? You want me to be 'the evil one'? Sure man'. I want to study them under a microscope
Ok im bored and ran out of good content so fuck it lets do this. Decided not to publicize it for so long bc its difficult.
This is my boldest and most prized contribution to this cursed fandom, as well as my dearest tribute to Tobirama, the best political character ive ever read in fiction, and his anija.
warning - this might not be for people with too heavy leaning on anti-konoha, anti-Hashirama sentiments or ships that's not hashimito or tobirama/konoha, or take the timings and numbers of the databook too seriously.
Hashirama is vaguely hinted to canonically have retired as Shodai years earlier, then married Mito, then lived till 10-20 years after VOTE and died in or before the 2nd War.
Tobirama died first in the 1st War. The scene where he sacrificed himself for his squad happened before the VoTE fight, not after. It's his death that signaled the End.
Hashirama losing his power/ability to lead due to possible depression and keeping a low profile (no one could know how and when the Shinobi God died because village situations, and there were sensors and trackers who could find him) is the reason why he didnt know the motive of the Police Force that Tobirama created, and also struggled with Kurama to the point he needed Mito to LEND him power, when earlier he could beat both Kurama and Madara.
Zetsu made up bullshit about Tobirama burying and letting Madara escape with a clone, based that assumption on Tobirama's reputation of creating weird jutsus involving sacrifices, most likely framing him for his surbodinates' doings, because Tobirama totally never knew Tsunade, possibly never even met Mito and dealt with a jinchuuriki, while Hashirama did both, comparing teenage Sakuras power to Tsunade's.
Zetsu also would not have been near there to know what the senju brothers did because they were both sensors that could detect him. Hashirama was the one who buried Madara.
As Onoki said this summit was to end minor conflicts, it happened right after Konoha was founded, not right before the WW. the 2nd kages looked much younger than in the VOTE/WW era. Hashirama likely had other means, more temporary and less effective, to restrain Kurama at this point (his mokuton and necklace) The databook also never said Hashirama died in which war.
Tsunade and Tobirama had no recollection of each other outside Tsunade only calling him distantly 'nidaime' since part 1 and only 'heard' about the ones who killed him.
meanwhile Hashirama was too familiar with tsunade as she with him, and familiar with the village and people, so that he could recall his memories with it despite just having seen it before he died like weve been told.
He talked like he's been through 2 wars with them.
Our second known grandkid of Hashirama was Nawaki, who was 11 years younger than Tsunade. Unless his first son has multiple children in short years which is pure fanfiction, how would he know Tsunade was his 'first' grandkid and how she would turn out 'in the end' if he died when she was this small.
Also the fact that Hashirama didnt wear Konoha headband in the VOTE fight.
But did wear it when he married Mito. Tsunade was not Mito's grand daughter.
As for how he died, its in battle, probably to a nobody mob while protecting his clan or Mitos clan (both conveniently destroyed or disappeared after hes dead). And by the time they killed him and he let them do that, i doubt they even realized or remembered they killed the First Hokage and God of Shinobi. I mean youd think whoever killed him should have been insanely famous, regardless of his power level at the time.
Tobirama said "my role as Second Hokage was to stand between and meditate between brother and Madara while protecting the village" this raised eyebrows because there would have been no one to stand between if he only became Second after Hashirama died and Madara left (forever). Meaning Hashirama was alive when Tobirama became Second, and it had been like that for a long time.
This is what a japanese fan thought of Tobirama's death
Between the two brothers, it makes more sense for the 'normal' one who invented jutsu that defied the law of nature, including
ninja nuclear bombs,
Summoning the dead and giving them infinite chakra
clones only reserved for monster chakra reserves like Naruto with Kurama in him
and a teleportation jutsu that required 5 people in place of an absolute genius like Minato to do- moderately,
rather than a powerful monster with the same annount of chakra as a bijuu AND sage mode that heals himself, to die earlier out of illness.
This is also why Hashirama would ban Tobiramas jutsu and compiled them into HIS scroll seen in the very first chapter - they likely literally shorten ones life. Hashirama wouldnt want random people to drop dead using them...like his brother.
Some more readings on which Japanese samurai characters that have been Kishimoto's references for the founders.
Oda Nobunaga - Hashirama's first concept when he was a scary rugged scarred and big nosed guy, the one who stopped the genenations long wars, unified japan and died right after realizing the dream, but he died partly because of his brutality and crimes in life - he ACTUALLY killed his brother by blood among others of his family who betrayed him. His successor has nickname 'Saru'.
Ashikaga Takauji - Hashirama's later concept, first shogun of his era but softer big brother guy.
Ashikaga Tadayoshi - Takauji's younger brother who stepped up where he couldnt, disagreed with Takauji on politics and died 5 years before his brother did, in defeat but also there are sources that say he suffered some kind of illness before that.
Ko no Moronao - Takauji's close friend who Tadayoshi hated and was later exiled.
More references in Japanese creation mythos involving Izanagi and Izanami, where Izanagi killed his Fire god son Kagutsuchi after Izanamis death, hence his words "my very own child".
Since this is gaining traction, some observations:
1. When Madara looked like hes dead in the war, Tobirama immidiately suggested this:
Edo Tensei was made for the purpose of interrogation among others, as long as you revive people with only a small percentage of their power. Its also a sure way to check if the one you want to summon is alive or dead.
If Tobirama was there for such a long time (1 years minimum) after Madara "died" and was so cautious of Madara all his political life, why didnt and why WOULDNT he check this way to confirm Madaras alive or dead or whatever he was doing? He was a sensor, he would know Madara was alive countries away.
2. Tobiramas death as was depicted in the manga actually made less sense than any theory about hashirama dying young
The squad of youngters was not his middle school students. He calls them all "kisama" and they are his body guards for a mission. And he says "OF COURSE id die lol you all suck" and they all (minus Danzo) just like "ok, whatever you say" ??
Sacrificial or not and whoever killed Tobirama, if Hashirama had died before him, he was still the Hokage and the strongest resource the village had at this time. Surely he would not let a bunch of wayward kids go back to the village just to declare themselves Hokage and associates in a war , when tension were high, and when they FAILED to guard him no less. The villagers and other villages would have thought Hiruzen or Danzo fucking killed the Hokage to take the seat for themselves.
So Tobirama himself knew and they all knew this was it for him, and they all knew there WAS someone more powerful than the current Hokage, someone with the authority to approve and witness for Hiruzen as the new Hokage, still in the village somewhere, and it could only be Hashirama.
Its been one year after this post. Some more observations regarding Madara.
3.In the war, Tobirama seems very mortified when Madara stabbed Sasuke.
Youd think if he had seen Madara bring Kurama to destroy the village and Uchihas living in it, he would have known Madara by then did not give a fuck about Uchiha clanmen anymore.
He did not live to see Madaras decline into craziness.
Madara too was like "ah i remember your tactic is this and that"
"Because you are the one who killed izuna" theres a slight pause there even in Japanese. He said it slowly like he just remembered Tobiramas name as the killer.
Like Tobirama was too long ago for Madara, longer than Hashirama was. Not to lessen his obsession with Hashirama, but you'd think he would keep his sight on Tobirama more if he had watched his brother's killer live longer than Hashirama. He remembered him and his beef with him in the war and young village era only.
And for Madara, Tobirama was not there to know what Hashirama told him, thats why he recited Hashiramas words to him.
4. In the war, we see Dan say this:
Dan wouldnt be the type of character to give such opinions about someone's power even if they are legends. To be able to say this so fiercely about Hashirama and how he compared to Madara, he must have seen they both demonstrate their powers and even them as individuals truely. He was a 7 year old at around the VotE fight but dated Tsunade as a grown up, so it's unlikely he had seen it so early. Implying he met and knew Hashirama, probably years after VotE's time, and knew Madara's power even better.
5. The anime omitted this page's rather dubious middle panel of a happy Uchiha kid :
At this point in Hashirama's story , before Madara came back, Tobirama had most likely died. Hashirama had observed children's, even Uchiha children's, age go up to 21 and beyond, and people prosper in his already big and lively village, to be able to say this. That takes more than a couple years' time from the founding. Plus as the defeated clan from the warring times, there must have been still difficulty for the Uchiha's descendants to happily mingle with other children like this. It must have been years before Madara came back in the next panel, and no sight of Tobirama, just as there's chronologically no trace of him in Senju's history since, at and after Kurama and Mitos appearances in any flashback (from credible, trustworthy persons) in the series.
Tobirama knows his way to Madara's heart is flattery
Alt text below
[first picture, Tobirama and Madara are holding hands.
Madara is freaking out internally, 'OMG WE'RE HOLDING HANDS'
Tobirama is looking at his brother at the back and thinking, 'what's up with Anija? is he jealous cuz I have Madara's attention? That might be a problem'
Hashirama is sulking and lil angry whispering at the background, "he stole my ototo... What kind of best friend does that?! He didn't even ask for a blessing!"]
[second picture. First shot is Madara showing off his Great Fireball jutsu to Tobirama.
Tobirama, clapping his hands, "wooooow", *unimpressed but surprised cuz Madara is strong for his age*
Second shot Tobirama hugs Madara's hand and says "you are so cool, Madara <3"
Madara shyly scratches his head "oh, you think so?"
Tobirama thinking, 'c'mon, Anija, fire jutsu. Think! Who uses Great Fireball? The sooner you both know about our clans the better. I don't need any unnecessary drama.'
I genuinely wonder what was going through Nagato’s head when he recruited the Akatsuki. Because all of the members are literally so diverse and odd that I’m completely convinced he just saw S-Rank on the bingo book and let them in.
Konan: Ok, we have a literal shark that swings a sword about.
Nagato: Amazing, he’s in.
Konan: He needs a partner, what about this family murdering 13 year old that may or may not be suicidal?
Nagato: Didn’t that Madara guy give him a recommendation? Let him in.
Konan: A money obsessed freak who may or may not commit tax evasion.
Nagato: That’s exactly what we need. Let him in.
Konan: An insane cultist who…sacrifices people to his God? Ok, I don’t think we should let this one in.
Nagato: We encourage religious differences here, let him in.
Konan: Your funeral I guess. What about this really insane guy who has puppets of his dead parents?
Nagato: I don’t know why but this sounds familiar…eh, let him join.
Konan: A terrorist who—
Nagato: I’ve heard enough. He’s in.
Konan: …ok then. And finally, a venus flytrap.
Nagato: lmao that’s hilarious. Let whatever that is in here.
The MadaTobi vibe is "destiny took a hard left." Madara and Tobirama are not the fated pair set up by the story and an eon of reincarnation. Hashirama is the one who's Madara's equal in battle, he's Madara's meaningful friend, Madara is his man of destiny. Hashirama and Madara are mutually obsessed. Their relationship is set up as a Huge Thing.
So MadaTobi is at its best leaning into that narrative asymmetry, I think. The curious contradictions. The feeling of "this wasn't meant to happen." They were clearly never meant to really interact in a narrative sense, so you wonder--what if they did get to talk?
They've got those interesting little bits where they espouse ideas that are similar, they have a massive unresolved beef, they have a strange binary star kind of orbit where they're linked in each other's gravity well without an immediate connection. Plenty to build on there. You can even get cute with some (likely unintended) thematic parallels like fire/water, red/blue, black/white.
TobiIzu is more out-of-the-box prepped for you by the narrative (last younger brothers, both left behind by big bro, close in strength, doomed to end in violence), but I think it's actually harder to nail down. Maybe because we have so little canon info on Izuna? And while Madara and Tobirama got to hiss and spit at each other on-page like bitter divorcees Izuna and Tobirama only interact in battle. They can easily fall into a pair-the-spares sitch; you're pairing up Hashirama and Madara so you may as well pair off the other brothers while you're at it.
But Tobirama and Izuna...they're parallels, but they're tainted parallels. Everything that makes the Hashirama-Madara relationship fairytale makes the Tobirama-Izuna relationship tragic. The destiny narrative dooms them to be tools of the story--dooms Tobirama to be Hashirama's bloodied right hand and Izuna to be Madara's tragic backstory.
Because of that I feel like the relationship only truly works when Hashirama and Madara aren't together. Narratively, Tobirama and Izuna need to be in a story where they're finally the important ones. Their relationship working is inextricably tied with the idea of them making selfish choices over their brothers, I think--both are improbable and need to be carefully set up.
They are otherwise bound to live--narratively and literally--in service of their brothers. The traditional supporting character relationship is more like codependency when looked at with a more realistic lens, and Tobirama and Izuna are prime examples of that. They need to be hewn away from their fraternal supports in order to develop something new. They cannot be retreading the ground of Hashirama and Madara.
(Personally I think some tbiz goes too far in the fanon 'poor little meow meow Tobirama' direction...although, I have to admit that in a world where Izuna somehow fell in love with Tobirama, I think that his perspective on Tobirama would definitely be "my poor little meow meow" lmao that sort of disproportionate "everyone is bullying MY poor woobie" kinda possessive protectiveness)
Without a Softness Showing is my gold standard for Tobirama and Izuna interaction. Blew my tits clean off and it's not even romantic.
(This post brought to you by a lengthy mental ramble of mine where I bemoaned the lack of porn where twink Izuna mating presses 6-ft Tobirama and lamented that I don't have the chops to pull it off myself.)
Hashirama and Tobirama are really the good cop bad cop duo in their peacekeeping system. No matter how it looks, they are both manipulating others into their system.
Hashirama wants to do it with as less of a mess as possible, because he isn’t the organiser of the two. And everybody knows how messy his own Jutsu gets. But, his presence alone is a reminder of his true power, so it’s difficult to say if he’s really a peacekeeper or just pretending to be nice where it suits him. At the end of the day, he is a god in the Naruto world of all generations before Kaguya was introduced. Hashirama is not a simple person to dissect.
In my purview?
Hashirama - the ends justify the means.
He doesn’t bat an eye when Tobirama strikes Izuna down. Uses it as part of a strategy to strongarm Madara into accepting an alliance because “look, this is how it ends.” Is a healer but doesn’t heal. It was possibly viewed as a positive event by Hashirama. We know that the two don’t actually shoot to kill when they meet on the battlefield, it’s Hashirama trying to get through to Madara. Whether it’s some kind of sick love, obsession, or whatever, Hashirama will use whatever advantage he has to get the Uchiha clan into an alliance. Izuna’s injury was just another one of it.
I’ll be real with you, I never thought of Hashirama as someone with feelings.
Tobirama - the means to an end.
If Hashirama is the creation of all things, giving them life, then Tobirama is the destruction of all things, giving them death. Literally, as a walking, talking corpse. Sure, we can get sentimental, and say he wants to revive his brothers. But he is also a scientist. Everything has an explanation, beginning, middle, and an end goal to achieve. Edo Tensei is a forbidden jutsu for more reason than just love for one’s own brothers, and it’s time we see that after all these years. The Senju brothers are not nice. They grew up in an abusive household, and the elder one literally got publicly bashed. Tobirama knows too much about the Uchiha clan’s techniques to say he got the information legally, in a founding time where the Uchiha were hated and isolated … easy targets for the taking, no one will mourn them but themselves.
Hashirama and Tobirama are so compatible, just not in the traditional way of siblings. They are more like the greek gods of hubris. If only Kawarama and Itama lived, we would have a whole organised crime of Naruto with us.
I have a new HC that I just can't get out of my head. And it's spoiled bratty Tobirama.
I mean just think about how he just insults Hashirama and is like I know more than you.
And his bitchiness about not getting credit for the jutsu he created.
I am imagining Butsuma realizing how smart Tobirama is and the way he takes to sealing like a fish to water.
And then he discovers how to create jutsu and his father is like do you see this kid? My son? Making all of you safer.
He is superior to all the other kids his age. The perfect heir for Hashirama. He's going to balance his brother so we'll.
He's so smart.
And then Hashirama just being a massive enabler who just adores his little brother.
So he's always like my otouto is better than yours he can do no wrong.
Except maybe that resurrection jutsu. And the multi shadow clone jutsu.....and uh maybe a few others. So we will just make those kinjutsu. But he's so smart he created forbidden jutsu! Can *your* bother so that?
So Tobirama is just spoiled rotten, given anything he might need for his lab.
And wait he's not only smart but he's an excellent Shinobi? And his chakra reserves make his killing intent so strong people litter fall over?
Yeah he's just the best.
Best brother ever! And he always reminds me to be serious. And he basically built the village on his own.
And as always I HC that Izuna lives and peace happens anyway.
Then enter Madara who is like WTF? He's literally the definition of a bratty little brother.
And then because I have a kinky mind, Madara is like. Someone needs to take that man. Who better than me?
So he courts Tobirama all while simultaneously slowly conditioning Tobirama to react to his orders.
Of course Tobirama fights it at first. But then Madara starts in with the positive reinforcement. And while he's used to praise and compliments, Madara's just hit differently. He's not complimenting Tobirama on what he can do for others, he's complimenting him on just him.
Instead of wow you're so smart look at what you did that made the village better, or helped Hashirama, or the jutsu that's going to make a difference for the clan/village.
Madara is like your brain is a master piece. End sentence. No mention of it being because it impacted anyone else.
And then when Madara tells him to do something and he actually does it, he compliments him on how he's so good. Then it turns into you're so good for me.
I love it when you listen to me, you make me feel so heard. So Tobirama is all like I made Madara feel good? And he's like well.... I want to do that more.
So slowly one order and compliment at a time he conditions Tobirama to be less bratty. When Madara asks because he wants to be good for him.
Then of course it turns sexual and again Tobirama is like excuse me, you don't tell me what to do. The. Madara uses those words again. You're so good for me. You're so pretty when you obey.
But he's still a brat and cocky whenever Madara isn't around. Because he's not anyone else's good boy and they should all appreciate what he does for them.
Which they do, and he relishes the way everyone thinks he's so smart and let him be a superior little brat.
