Briar Ruler

This is my main Tumblr blog. My non-writing just reblogging blog is briarrulerreblogging https://www.tumblr.com/briarrulerreblogging I am on AO3 as Briar_Ruler https://archiveofourown.org/users/Briar_Ruler I don't currently have a pinned post, I'll remake one at somepoint.

[navigatorsghost]

How do you a Death Note memory loss Light would react to Ryuk?

I think the emotions would be positive. But also that Light would probably be weirded about by meeting Ryuk and instantly feeling comfortable/relieved/familiar/happy/whatever emotion etc, particularly if he's meeting Ryuk in a context where other people are also seeing the Shinigami and freaking out.

The real unhappiness would be whenever Light puts together 'familiarity with a death god' and gets 'I'm probably Kira' unless he's in deep denial about it.

Do you think they could pull of schemes like this? Either planned pre memory shuffle or improvised?

Oh this is such an interesting question, thank you! Answer behind a cut because this got hecking long:

Light and Ryuk, though? Oh, I think that would be very different. Because from their very first meeting, Light has trusted Ryuk like he trusts nobody else, ever. He lets Ryuk see him genuinely afraid, angry, tired, stressed, worried, doubting himself - all states of mind that he tries to mask from everyone else. Sure, he gets superficially annoyed with Ryuk at times, but he never, ever tells Ryuk to go away, leave him alone, or get out of his business (people write him doing it all the time in fanfic, but in the manga canon it just doesn't happen). Also, he's completely fearless of Ryuk, to the point that Ryuk even comments on it.

~~~

I think the answer to this has to key off what we know of Death Note memory erasure, which is that you forget your conscious memory of the Death Note, and you forget your shinigami, but - as Rem very explicitly warns Misa, and as you mention above - you will still keep your feelings. Specifically in Misa's case her love for Light, which very much turns out to be true, so I think we can say this is definitely how it works. Whatever you feel for someone when you have your memories intact, you'll still feel for them with your memories gone. This is why I find the Yotsuba bathroom scene with Rem and Misa so heartbreaking. Misa apparently never held any real love or trust for Rem, because she reacts with unqualified terror and revulsion when Rem appears to her. She only calms down once Rem explains the situation; and even then she's still quick to declare that she "doesn't want to be loved by a shinigami" and only shows appreciation for Rem insofar as Rem is being helpful to Light and Misa. Rem's love left no mark on Misa and no echo in her soul - Misa's default feelings for her are still only fear and disgust. ;_;

And significantly, Light expresses appreciation for Ryuk's honesty - in response to Ryuk saying that not talking to Light would be even harder than going without apples. We consider it a meaningful gesture of will and devotion when a human places a loved one above an addiction; so, IMO, we shouldn't see it as any less when a shinigami does the same. That's the depth of Ryuk's emotional bond to Light, and Light, while he doesn't offer a confession of his own in reply, nonetheless thanks Ryuk for telling him as much. That moment honestly reminds me of nothing so much as the famous Star Wars "I love you." "I know."

So yeah. I think Light knows, in both his head and heart, how deeply Ryuk is attached to him; and he returns that attachment, unspoken, in how he lets Ryuk fully into his life without any pushback. I think he trusts Ryuk and feels safe with him; feels seen by him, but in a way that's comforting and validating and supportive, rather than threatening. (Since Ryuk is always very quick to praise, admire and encourage Light, especially when Light is doing things that other humans would not be so ready to appreciate...)

So, to return to the actual question you asked: I think that's all what would come to the surface, if Light without his memories met Ryuk again somehow. I think he'd immediately feel like Ryuk is someone safe, someone he can trust, even with no idea of why. How this would play out, though... well, obviously it would depend partly on what Ryuk actually said or did, but you make a good point about whether Light would realise he was Kira based on the apparent connection between himself and a shinigami. It would be a logical thought to have - and Yotsuba Light is already halfway to figuring it out at times anyway, so Ryuk's appearance might be enough of a nudge for him to get the rest of the way.

But Light's "I meant to do that" game is unmatched, so I suspect he'd probably be okay with that realisation faster than you might expect. One thing about Light that doesn't change at all, whether he's got the Death Note or not, is that he thinks he can be trusted to be an exception to the rules that bind everyone else. So I think he might actually be relieved, in a weird way, to find out that he'd been the original Kira - because if it was him, then at least the original Kira is now a known variable who can be trusted to do only things that Light himself would think are a good idea. XD (Not to mention that I think Kira!Light must have considered the possibility that his memoryless self would somehow learn the truth, and had faith in that version of himself to cope with that knowledge if it happened...)

As for whether Light and Ryuk could still pull off some kind of scheme if Light didn't have his memories: 100% yes. No doubt in my mind at all. The two of them are so drift compatible that I can't see it being a problem for Light to improvise around Ryuk even without his memories, and Ryuk is a lot smarter than he usually pretends - notice that while he often asks Light to explain things, he never needs Light to explain twice. Once he's seen how the trick is done, he always gets it. And in part 2, when he's with the taskforce, we see that he's quite capable of saying the right things to keep a scheme working even when he's put on the spot by someone else and Light can't prompt him.

So yeah there's a ton of options for stuff that could happen between them, and I think a lot of it could be fun. I do actually have a fic knocking around in my drafts that's Yotsuba-arc Terraito smut, even - based on the premise that if they'd had a previous sexual relationship, Light's subconscious reaction to Ryuk would, shall we say, reflect those emotions as well. XD I don't know if I'll finish/post that one as it's deeply self indulgent, but it was definitely fun to play with; particularly Light being confused and dismayed by finding himself attracted to a monster, but giving in anyway because somehow he's certain it's a good idea. (Also I love playing around with sexual initiation and corruption as kink material, so getting to have what amounts to two first times with the same lover because you lost your memories inbetween? Oh heck yes. 🔥)

Anyway, thank you very much for asking this and making me think about it! I hope this ramble of a reply was satisfactory. XD

[koilungfish]

Trying to work out how Light'd get Ryuk but not his memories... only thing I can think of is him going 'wait, WHAT did I bury in that orchard?' and digging Gelus' note up. Surprise Ryuk. Well then.

[navigatorsghost]

That wouldn't work, since Light's technically owned that notebook before so touching it would restore his memories. I think the only way it could happen is by Ryuk voluntarily using his Death Note to make himself visible to Light, since that's the only notebook that's linked to Ryuk but Light has never owned.

Which means the only way it can happen at all is by Ryuk wanting it to happen, which... yeah. Only seems likely if Ryuk was pining for his favourite human a little too hard, or else Light was about to run into some serious problem that he hadn't foreseen and Ryuk really didn't want to watch him fail/die...

[briarruler]

I liked your rambling reply! I also got distracted looking at my immortalized spelling mistakes, wincing and thinking: damn, I should have written this ask out, waited a day, edited it, and then submitted it.

You make a good point about Light having confidence in himself. It does now make me wonder what Light would think of Kira knowing that Kira was Light himself but not remembering being Kira. How that would change his perception of his actions, how accurately would he deduce why he made the choices he did. And what later Light-remembering-he-is-Kira would think of his memory-lacking self's reflection on Kira, both when he knew and when he didn't know he had been Kira.

Yeah, so I wasn't sure how to have this happen. The Yotsuba Arc is pretty tight, so I wasn't sure how a change like memory-lacking Light meeting Ryuk, who is supposed to be up in the Shinigami realm, would happen.

I mean I suppose he could met Rem? But those emotions would not at all be positive.

The other vague thought was him having to do another memory gambit later. Which, no idea how that would set up either (Shrug). Maybe it happening by accident with all the Death Note ownership shuffling and Ryuk having to quickly improvise how to cue memory-lacking Light along the right path?

Oooo, for the Yotsuba Arc change, what if Sidoh noticed his Death Note was gone early? That would be a real spanner in the works. One that Light would have no way of anticipating and Ryuk would feel responsible for.

[navigatorsghost]

How do you a Death Note memory loss Light would react to Ryuk?

I think the emotions would be positive. But also that Light would probably be weirded about by meeting Ryuk and instantly feeling comfortable/relieved/familiar/happy/whatever emotion etc, particularly if he's meeting Ryuk in a context where other people are also seeing the Shinigami and freaking out.

The real unhappiness would be whenever Light puts together 'familiarity with a death god' and gets 'I'm probably Kira' unless he's in deep denial about it.

Do you think they could pull of schemes like this? Either planned pre memory shuffle or improvised?

Oh this is such an interesting question, thank you! Answer behind a cut because this got hecking long:

Light and Ryuk, though? Oh, I think that would be very different. Because from their very first meeting, Light has trusted Ryuk like he trusts nobody else, ever. He lets Ryuk see him genuinely afraid, angry, tired, stressed, worried, doubting himself - all states of mind that he tries to mask from everyone else. Sure, he gets superficially annoyed with Ryuk at times, but he never, ever tells Ryuk to go away, leave him alone, or get out of his business (people write him doing it all the time in fanfic, but in the manga canon it just doesn't happen). Also, he's completely fearless of Ryuk, to the point that Ryuk even comments on it.

~~~

I think the answer to this has to key off what we know of Death Note memory erasure, which is that you forget your conscious memory of the Death Note, and you forget your shinigami, but - as Rem very explicitly warns Misa, and as you mention above - you will still keep your feelings. Specifically in Misa's case her love for Light, which very much turns out to be true, so I think we can say this is definitely how it works. Whatever you feel for someone when you have your memories intact, you'll still feel for them with your memories gone. This is why I find the Yotsuba bathroom scene with Rem and Misa so heartbreaking. Misa apparently never held any real love or trust for Rem, because she reacts with unqualified terror and revulsion when Rem appears to her. She only calms down once Rem explains the situation; and even then she's still quick to declare that she "doesn't want to be loved by a shinigami" and only shows appreciation for Rem insofar as Rem is being helpful to Light and Misa. Rem's love left no mark on Misa and no echo in her soul - Misa's default feelings for her are still only fear and disgust. ;_;

And significantly, Light expresses appreciation for Ryuk's honesty - in response to Ryuk saying that not talking to Light would be even harder than going without apples. We consider it a meaningful gesture of will and devotion when a human places a loved one above an addiction; so, IMO, we shouldn't see it as any less when a shinigami does the same. That's the depth of Ryuk's emotional bond to Light, and Light, while he doesn't offer a confession of his own in reply, nonetheless thanks Ryuk for telling him as much. That moment honestly reminds me of nothing so much as the famous Star Wars "I love you." "I know."

So yeah. I think Light knows, in both his head and heart, how deeply Ryuk is attached to him; and he returns that attachment, unspoken, in how he lets Ryuk fully into his life without any pushback. I think he trusts Ryuk and feels safe with him; feels seen by him, but in a way that's comforting and validating and supportive, rather than threatening. (Since Ryuk is always very quick to praise, admire and encourage Light, especially when Light is doing things that other humans would not be so ready to appreciate...)

So, to return to the actual question you asked: I think that's all what would come to the surface, if Light without his memories met Ryuk again somehow. I think he'd immediately feel like Ryuk is someone safe, someone he can trust, even with no idea of why. How this would play out, though... well, obviously it would depend partly on what Ryuk actually said or did, but you make a good point about whether Light would realise he was Kira based on the apparent connection between himself and a shinigami. It would be a logical thought to have - and Yotsuba Light is already halfway to figuring it out at times anyway, so Ryuk's appearance might be enough of a nudge for him to get the rest of the way.

But Light's "I meant to do that" game is unmatched, so I suspect he'd probably be okay with that realisation faster than you might expect. One thing about Light that doesn't change at all, whether he's got the Death Note or not, is that he thinks he can be trusted to be an exception to the rules that bind everyone else. So I think he might actually be relieved, in a weird way, to find out that he'd been the original Kira - because if it was him, then at least the original Kira is now a known variable who can be trusted to do only things that Light himself would think are a good idea. XD (Not to mention that I think Kira!Light must have considered the possibility that his memoryless self would somehow learn the truth, and had faith in that version of himself to cope with that knowledge if it happened...)

As for whether Light and Ryuk could still pull off some kind of scheme if Light didn't have his memories: 100% yes. No doubt in my mind at all. The two of them are so drift compatible that I can't see it being a problem for Light to improvise around Ryuk even without his memories, and Ryuk is a lot smarter than he usually pretends - notice that while he often asks Light to explain things, he never needs Light to explain twice. Once he's seen how the trick is done, he always gets it. And in part 2, when he's with the taskforce, we see that he's quite capable of saying the right things to keep a scheme working even when he's put on the spot by someone else and Light can't prompt him.

So yeah there's a ton of options for stuff that could happen between them, and I think a lot of it could be fun. I do actually have a fic knocking around in my drafts that's Yotsuba-arc Terraito smut, even - based on the premise that if they'd had a previous sexual relationship, Light's subconscious reaction to Ryuk would, shall we say, reflect those emotions as well. XD I don't know if I'll finish/post that one as it's deeply self indulgent, but it was definitely fun to play with; particularly Light being confused and dismayed by finding himself attracted to a monster, but giving in anyway because somehow he's certain it's a good idea. (Also I love playing around with sexual initiation and corruption as kink material, so getting to have what amounts to two first times with the same lover because you lost your memories inbetween? Oh heck yes. 🔥)

Anyway, thank you very much for asking this and making me think about it! I hope this ramble of a reply was satisfactory. XD

[briarruler]

Created a Tumblr Community for Blue Dragon fans called Shadow Wielders: a light shines in our hearts.

If you like Blue Dragon, feel free to join, although I still recommend posting and reblogging on your own blogs.

Think of the Community as, I don't know, a place to look for other fans and sort through Blue Dragon only posts by more specific tags.

Hoping people will also include in the tags the blog name of the original poster of any post they reblog into the Community so that people can easily search for their own posts and see if it's getting Community specific interaction.

[briarruler]

(Cheering) It's visible to search results now. Aka if you go to Communities and search Blue Dragon, it will show up!...(or at least it's showing up for me now)... I was kind of worried that was going to take, like, a week to happen.

[briarruler]

Created a Tumblr Community for Blue Dragon fans called Shadow Wielders: a light shines in our hearts.

If you like Blue Dragon, feel free to join, although I still recommend posting and reblogging on your own blogs.

Think of the Community as, I don't know, a place to look for other fans and sort through Blue Dragon only posts by more specific tags.

Hoping people will also include in the tags the blog name of the original poster of any post they reblog into the Community so that people can easily search for their own posts and see if it's getting Community specific interaction.

[hollowed-theory-hall]

You know what fucks with me? Is it ever like actually fully explained how in the Deathly Hallows, Ron and Hermione get into the Chamber of Secrets by themselves. Is Parseltongue just a language people can learn now? Did they make Ron retroactively a Parselmouth too? Or is the chamber dumb enough that you can do the snake equivalent of meowing back at a cat at it and it'll go 'seems legit'

Another one for the 'what the heck happened to the writing in this book' pile maybe

Honestly, yes, that was so contrived, and for, like, no reason.

I mean, the explanation in the book is this:

“But how did you get in there?” he asked, staring from the fangs to Ron. “You need to speak Parseltongue!” Ron made a horrible strangled hissing noise. “It’s what you did to open the locket,” he told Harry apologetically. “I had to have a few goes to get it right, but,” he shrugged modestly, “we got there in the end.”

(DH, 623)

So, it's exactly a person meowing back at a cat, you're spot on with that description. It's so bad Harry doesn't actually recognize it as words in Parsletongue the way he always does, because Ron isn't speaking it! He isn't actually saying anything, just hissing randomly!

Which makes it bizarre the chamber actually opened to him like this. Seems like either loose security, some contrived magic helping Ron out or he was very lucky. Honestly, I prefer to believe he got the hissing lucky that one time, it seems more probable than the other options.

JKR did state in an interview Dumbledore learned Parsletongue, or at least, knew to understand it when spoken to him, but I don't treat it as canon. It doesn't make sense with everything we know about Parseltongue as a magical language, the way speakers of it just hear it as English, Harry has to strain for a moment to realize it's a different language (he can tell in the memories in book 6 if he listens carefully). Also, Dumbledore seems to me in these memories he's showing Harry like he doesn't understand the Parsletongue. And as I take the books' texts over the interviews when it comes to evidence, I don't believe he can and I chose to believe you can't learn Parsletongue and Ron got really lucky with one of his attempts to mimic Harry.

All in all, it seems she just decided you could learn Parsletongue in book 7 and ran with it. I don't even know why, since, like, it wasn't necessary? There were plenty of pages she could've replaced with Harry going down to the chamber considering how much time is spent on very little, well, anything. And if she really didn't want to add that scene it could've been an invisible scene like: "Harry opened the Chamber for Ron and Hermione to retrieve basilisk fangs,"

Like, I get wanting to give Ron a win, but he gets wins, he destroyed the locket and there are other ways to give him wins that don't include changing the very rules of magic.

Book 7 annoys me from an analysis standpoint, it makes theorizing harder instead of easier sometimes and it frustrates me so much more than the frankly bizarre writing choices. Although they bother me too, especially the pacing and structure of the book, but that's a whole rant on its own.

[iamnmbr3]

Also, I think there's a big difference between Dumbledore learning to understand it or using some sort of magical translation spell, and someone being able to speak it. Being able to speak it and understand it unaided is pretty clearly supposed to be a magical ability and not just something you can pick up. Otherwise Harry (or Tom for that matter) being able to speak it wouldn't be such a big deal.

ALSO. There is a great fix for this because if JKR wanted someone who wasn't Harry to open the Chamber Ginny is RIGHT THERE. She did open the Chamber previously and you could plausibly argue that she had some latent abilities/memories left over from having been possessed by a Horcrux. It would've also been really thematically nice to have her return to the site of her worst nightmares and use what was done to her to destroy a Horcrux right there and then bring vital weapons to Harry.

I mean, I'm not a huge fan of hinny but since Ginny is canonically supposed to be Harry's love interest this could've given her a nice moment in book 7 and added some depth to her arc. But nope. Ginny remains sidelined and irrelevant and we get this contrived moment with Ron instead. Which honestly is doubly bad because 1) it doesn't make sense and 2) if Harry had been the one to open the Chamber then he could've witnessed Hermione destroying the cup but instead he's not there so her big moment also gets undermined.

[briarruler]

I agree. Ron managing enough Parseltongue to open the Chamber doesn't make sense and there were better ways to do it if you needed someone other than Harry to enter for a Basilisk fang.

New Theory: the Chamber of Secrets has a sort of recognition and authorization list of people who have entered. Anyone brought to the Chamber by a Parselmouth is automatically added to a guest pass list, with the ability to open the Chamber but not to authorize any new guest passes. It was originally intended either for married in spouses of the Slytherin family as a place of retreat within Hogwarts or for Hogwarts Staff so they could lead students to shelter in case of an assault on the castle.

So if this theory was true then besides from Harry and Voldemort, the other people capable of opening the Chamber of Secrets if they tried would be Ron, Ginny and Lockhart.

[briarruler]

The Lion-Paladin bonds would have made more sense if either they really leaned into the singular bond between a Lion and their Paladin or they made the ability to pilot a Lion more of a negotiation contingent upon your relationship with both the Lion and the Paladin.

[briarruler]

It would be neat if the difference in the way gravity affects Danny as a human vs as a ghost meant that his handwriting varied between his human-form and his ghost-form. To such an extent that if samples of his handwriting were professionally analyzed, writing from Danny Fenton and writing from Danny Phantom would be categorized has two distinct and different people.

[briarruler]

One should note that the first time I played Dragon Age: Origins I missed recruiting Leliana and maybe Sten? It was quite a long time ago but I think what happened was this:

I talked to people outside the pub and they said: don't go in there, something something violence, and I went, alright I'll go talk to other people around Lothering and never actually entered the pub. So no Leliana meeting.

As for Sten, I did talk to him, but I think I couldn't figure out how to get him out of that cage and wasn't too invested in doing so. (Frowning in thought.) Might have mercy killed him, if that was an option.

Did definitely recruit Dog. Wynne too. Pretty sure I recruited Zevran as well. Think I must have recruited Oghren, but probably pretty late in the game. Don't remember what happened with Loghian.

But yeah, definitely missed Leliana on my first Origins run. So if you ever want your Warden not to recruit her but also not to turn down people offering to help, it's easy, just have them be the sort of person who either listens to local warnings or who doesn't like entering buildings or both.

[briarruler]

It's kind of funny that you can't complete The Harrowing in Dragon Age: Origins without talking to and gaining aid from both Valor and Sloth. The Rage Demon you are supposed to be fighting just refuses to show up until you've got your quest relevant upgrades. I was making an attempt at role playing a Chantry loyal demon fearing mage who is here to kill their demon and leave, but...(shrug)

Really should make more attempts are role playing characters. I'm not very good at it (I shy away much from making mean choices) but it is fun to see different sides of characters.

[stonesense]

blackwall expressly giving josephine permission to threaten the warden right of conscription on behalf of the inquisition as long as she doesn’t actually invoke it. good lord

[briarruler]

The actual reason I want to murder Blackwall.

False Identity. Who cares. Murdered children for money. Bad but a lot of people in Dragon Age have done worse. Impersonating a Grey Warden... well that's not great and all but I can see were he is coming from and he was technically recruited, so for as long as he stuck to low level interpersonal stuff I'll give it a pass.

Explicitly and deliberately interfering in international politics by throwing the support of the Grey Wardens behind the fledgling Inquisition, giving the Herald of Andraste use of the Grey Warden treaties for the expressed purpose of taking what they need...

Hands around Thom Rainier's throat: you're screwing up Warden politics! We need to be existing. We need to be neutral. We need to be powerful. We need to be trusted. Grey Wardens are the only people who can stop a Blight. Blights that will doom all of Thedas without the Grey Wardens to stop them!

(Devolves into incoherent screaming.)

(Clears throat.) Anyway.

If I ever properly write my Inquisitor Kalus idea she might have a screaming breakdown over this. Depends on how much knowledge of Darkspawn, the Blight and the Grey Wardens she absorbed in the Fade and how much Blackwall has interfered with political relations between the Inquisition and the Grey Warden and the public perception therein.

Kalus really doesn't care whether or not 'Blackwall' was actually her friend. She cares about the complete political catastrophe that this has the potential to be. The Grey Wardens are one of the few Thedasian organizations she actually respects and if she has to gut Thom Rainier with her own hands to fix this, then she will.

The one thing Kalus spares half a moment to mourning is the loss of a reliable Warrior companion who isn't Cassandra -far too in with the Chantry, dangerous- or Iron Bull- mercenary and spy, dangerous-, she really needs to find some skilled, loyal, warriors to serve as her personal guard.

(Solas in the background taking mental notes: okay, so she's not bothered by people lying about their names and background. She is however incandescently furious about people screwing up her political agenda, re not having the world overrun by unstoppable Darkspawn hordes.)

I just find the Inquisitor's negative reactions to the reveal of Blackwall being Thom Rainier being limited to personal hurt about being lied or moral horror at the murderers lackluster. Where's the option for an Inquisitor to be swearing up an internal storm as they try to calmly consider the political ramifications? Where's the option for an Inquisitor to be furious at him for lying about his expertise and abilities as a Grey Warden, thus leading on the Inquisitor and the Inquisition with false assurances about the Grey Wardens and the Darkspawn.

The Inquisitor is a major political leader, sometimes I want them to act like it. (The advisors should also know better, honestly.)

[briarruler]

You know… I'm not actually convinced that the Templars would always notice if you got possessed during your Harrowing?

Like they don't have the best track record for noticing that people are possessed? Sure if you're glowing, speaking in double voice or visibly mutated they notice. But if you look normal and act normal, they don't.

To all appearances Templars don't have have any special ability to detect possession. Special ability to provoke spirit/demon flare up possibly yes, but that is by being a traumatizing, violent, threatening, abusive and all round a terrible person that their victim knows can and will murder them.

'Abominations' (for lack of a better word) seem to have some degree of adjustment period, but it isn't always extreme and seems to act up mostly in response to strong negative surprises.

A patient, calm level headed spirit/mage pair who entered into the possession willing and in full anticipation of how they would need to Not React to the Templars. Or a very skillful demon who managed to take possession of a mage very smoothly in full knowledge of the situation they would be getting into. These seem like instance were a Mage could walk away from their Harrowing possessed without the Templars having a clue.

[bleeding-star-heart]

This has so much potential for horror, too... Take a scenario like the one from the Mage Origin: a demon like Mouse playing to the sympathies of a scared, naive mage. But with one exception: unlike the Warden, this mage-we'll call her Alina-doesn't see through it. Our demon plays Alina like a fiddle and successfully possesses her.

And once they do, it's over for Alina. Oh, the demon doesn't completely mutate Alina's body, mind you. In fact, as far as the templars and First Enchanter are concerned, there is no demon. Just a slightly more confident version of the Alina they've come to know.

But poor Alina is essentially trapped within her own mind, helplessly watching as the demon impersonates her and uses her body to do thing she'd never co-sign onto.

[briarruler]

Also something in the horror of: they did this to you. They preached about the evils of magic, of demons, that the Circle and the Templars were here to protect people from you, but also to protect you, from people, from demons, from your self and it was all a lie. They did this to you. You were good, you studied hard, you obeyed, you were faithful and they still did this to you. They served you up to a demon, like a snack on a platter, and didn't even notice when it took you.

There is a betrayal here. By the Circle, the Templars, the Chantry.

You were supposed to be safe.

The Circle and the Templars are supposed to protect people from you. Keep people safe from your magic, from the demons that haunt you.

You were supposed to be safe.

From this at least. A Circle Mage might not be safe in any other manner, but they are supposed to be safe from being puppeted. The Templars will kill you if you are possessed, if you succumb to a demon, if they even suspect it. Why are you trapped and alive? Why don't they see it staring out from you eyes? You were supposed to be safe and they did this to you.

You failed this test. But. They did too.

They (threatened) promised to kill you if you become possessed. They lied.

[briarruler]

You know… I'm not actually convinced that the Templars would always notice if you got possessed during your Harrowing?

Like they don't have the best track record for noticing that people are possessed? Sure if you're glowing, speaking in double voice or visibly mutated they notice. But if you look normal and act normal, they don't.

To all appearances Templars don't have have any special ability to detect possession. Special ability to provoke spirit/demon flare up possibly yes, but that is by being a traumatizing, violent, threatening, abusive and all round a terrible person that their victim knows can and will murder them.

'Abominations' (for lack of a better word) seem to have some degree of adjustment period, but it isn't always extreme and seems to act up mostly in response to strong negative surprises.

A patient, calm level headed spirit/mage pair who entered into the possession willing and in full anticipation of how they would need to Not React to the Templars. Or a very skillful demon who managed to take possession of a mage very smooth in full knowledge of the situation they would be getting into. These seem like instance were a Mage could walk away from their Harrowing possessed without the Templars having a clue.

[briarruler]

Delightful by the quick response

@imissorzammar 3h ago #lmao yep probably gigkfkfkdkdkd

and general agreement

@iovaras 2h ago #i cannot emphasize how hilarious it is that wynne got possessed while surrounded by other mages and no one noticed. #like different scenario for sure bc there was a fight going on and they arent templars#but it feels relevant

in the tags

@dick-hardboiled 2h ago #Looks at wynne

Wynne is a very relevant example in the context of Circles failing to notice possessions.

I did have a moment were I wondered if maybe the First Enchanter as the very experienced and lone mage overseeing the Harrowing might notice… then went hmm no, probably not.

(I suspect mages might have a slight advantage over Templars, in that I remember scenes of them showing some sensitivity to beings moving across the veil, but well first you would have to notice it happening, second you would have to recognize what just happened and third you have to be both sure enough in your suspicion of the possession and willing to report to the Templars that you sensed someone getting possessed.)

So Wynne.

Her not being noticed right away makes a fair amount of sense. She gets possessed in the middle of battle and she and all the other nearby mages are fighting for their lives. It is also a battle against demons and demon possessed mages, if there is some sort of magic pulse or shift when a spirit crosses the veil or possesses someone it's very like to be put down to another demon popping up. She was also just heavily injured and a spirit healer, if a nearby mage felt a spirit suddenly become particularly close I think their first thought would be more 'emergency spirit healing' then 'possession' especially when Wynne doesn't turn around and start attacking them.

So her being overlooked while the tower is overrun with abominations, demons, stray blood mages and several enchanted Templars makes sense. It's much more funny that the Templar just let her walk out of the Circle they almost Annulled for being overrun by blood mages turned demon possessed abominations. Like that's a total fail. There isn't even any indication that they try to check her for possession, but they should have been on high alert for it.

@ikarons 1h ago #i have been saying this the whole time #i think there are a lot more possessed mages than the chantry knows about! just in the circle! #like… a) WILL the templars notice. if you get possessed willingly during the harrowing by a spirit who doesn’t immediately explode you . no #but also b) even if you don’t get possessed At Your Harrowing… #i think the harrowing Introduces the idea in a really close up intimate way #like you’re shoved directly into the fade with no warning specifically to test you against spirits/demons #As The Warden we have successful interactions with a few! #if you meet a spirit of valour during your harrowing who won’t possess you bc it has no interest in the material world#but is kind and helpful and wishes you the best #what better way to plant that seed in your head.#but also yeah like. the harrowing is the perfect time to get it done also. hello #i think it is a lot more common than we’re shown #i also think spirit healers are Unusually commonly possessed lol#not bc it’s a requirement (i don’t think it is) but bc they are kind of predisposed to it by the nature of their work#and the experiences it gives them wrt spirits

I agree with you on all points.

The Chantry is only going to know about possessions that go wrong, possessions that get discovered. But we've seen several times that possessed people can look and act perfectly normal right up until something stresses them so badly that their spirit feels it has to react. Plus if a benevolent possession did get found out, it's not like the Templars are going to record that, they're just going to kill that mage, pat themselves on the back and say good riddance.

The entire set up of the Circle does not encourage any possessed mage to be open and honest about what is going on. As a matter of life and death they are going to hide it and never breath a word to anyone. Not tell their students or their peers or record it in their dairy. And even if they do tell someone, and that person keeps it secret from the Templars, then that person has good incentive to keep it secret even past the possessed mage's death, because if the Templars found out they knew and didn't report a possession, well, it's not going to be pretty.

Post Harrowing possessions!

You meet a Spirit during your Harrowing. You chat with them. The spirit helps you. You like the spirit, maybe started to consider them a friend. You kill the demon. You pass your Harrowing. The spirit who talked to you and helped you through the Harrow starts visiting your dreams now you are an official Mage of the Circle. Sometime later you agree to them possessing you. No one notices.

Why do you agree? Maybe you trust them. Maybe you are lonely. Maybe you are curious. Maybe you are bored. Maybe you are angry. Maybe you are depressed and don't want to be trapped here in this life anymore. Maybe you want to help them. Maybe you are afraid of demons and decide that choosing who possess you is better then waiting until you falter. Maybe you keep seeing your fellow mages leave you, death, Tranquility, transfer to another circle, and you want a friend who will be with you always. Maybe you want to study a particular type of magic but are not skilled at it.

There are all sorts of reasons a mage might agree to a possession.

Spirit Healers having unusually high levels of possession is basically canon. What with both Anders and Wynne being possessed spirit healers. I think Spirit Healing requires the ability to attract and interact with spirits at a higher level then most mages, but becoming possessed is completely optional. It's just that they interact with benevolent spirits regularly, with the mage becoming familiar with the spirits they rely up and the spirits becoming familiar with the mage they help.

I think this intimacy with Spirits also contributes to the rarity of Spirit Healers. As in it is not just rare to have the knack, but for all that a fully trained spirit healer is valuable, I bet mages with the potential are more likely to be killed by Templars. Probably not helped by the offensive nature of the Harrowing, as a mage who is disinclined to violence might struggle more when suddenly forced into a death match with a demon, although their greater familiarity with spirits might also help.

Of course all this assumes that the Templars both allow the apprentice mage to undergo the Harrowing in the first place, and that they don't terrifying them into choosing Tranquility when making the choice between the unknown and dangerous ritual test suddenly thrust upon them in the middle of the night and the known horror of the Tranquil.

[raven-6-10]

Oh, the Chantry and the Templars definitely don't have accurate records there and the mages sure don't tell them.

Just look at Rivain! Dairsmuid Circle straight up trained mages in the traditional seer techniques that involved voluntary possessions. And nobody who knew talked about it! It wasn't found out until the Seekers went there to Annul the Circle (you won't convince me they weren't already planning it and fully expecting to come up with a justification post facto). And I headcanon they only found out because they themselves are possessed by Faith spirits, even if they aren't aware of it.

[briarruler]

Going to work my way down responses in the tags by order of which part of this post they follow on from.

Firstly continuing to address tags attached to the original post:

@kirkwallguy 12h ago #YEPPP. and tbh i think even a lot of mages might be slightly possessed while not fully knowing about it #since they've been taught all their life that possession is violent and painful and scary #and this is just a nice presence keeping them safe. how do they know it's not the maker.

That's a fascinating idea. I never would have thought of it but now you've mentioned it, I can really see it.

Also given I go with the headcanon that Andraste was simply a very powerful mage possessed by a very powerful spirit, well, you could kind of say they're right?

@shirayuki7 10h ago #oh man i need a possessed mage warden#could you imagine#say a warden amell#accepts the pride demons deal during their harrowing

Mouse is nice. I liked him. Also the sheer irony of First Enchanter Irving's star pupil walking out of the Harrowing possessed, right under his and the Knight-Commanders noses, and no-one noticing. Being praised on how quick and clean their Harrowing was.

You've got to wonder what the Joining does to an abomination, does it differ from how it affects a normal recruit. Like, I'd assume possessed mages have undergone the Joining at some point in Grey Warden history, but I don't remember any canon mention of such?

Canonically Justice possessed a Grey Warden corpse and then possessed a Grey Warden mage, but both of those bodies had already undergone the Joining when he possessed them, plus Justice was already in odd circumstances for a Spirit. Hmm.

wardenalissa 10h ago #exactly#deeply unlikely wynne is some freak aberration#her spirit liked her im sure a LOT of mages have spirits who fuck w their vibes

Yeah, no, I think that the circumstances aligned such that she was possessed but it wasn't about anything truly unique to her. Actually I suspect it might be a pretty common possibility for any Spirit Healer dying in combat. Or other specialties that involve close and willing work with spirits.

The deep bond, the attachment and trust between a mage and a spirit that watches over them, and suddenly their mage is dying and desperately doesn't want to be? Recipe for sudden possession, and a benevolent, functioning possession because they are familiar with each other and trust each other and the spirit has been glimpsing the mortal world through their mage's work for some time so the transition is less of a shock.

heliomanteia 10h ago #🎮#da#I don't mean to sound like an ass /gen but I thought this was always the underlying issue/flaw of the Order #Like in DAO I think if you play a mage Cullen talks about how they spot abominations and it's obvious they only know One Particular Kind#The trashy and loud ones. WHICH. With Vivienne's story in mind might give false positives if a mage is just... panicked but not possessed #But it can also give false negatives if a mage is very composed and/or dissociates the fuck out of it or if a demon is smart#Like Templars do NOT work is the point of the whole thing y'know#Good post tho

No your fine, and like you're right. It really is one of the underlying and kind of obvious flaws of the Templar-Circle system. But that doesn't stop people from missing it. And sometimes one just wants to say something that seems obvious to check that other people have also noticed and agreed with their conclusion. And to, like, check their thought doesn't have some flaw they've overlooked.

teyrnacousland 8h ago #Yessss realizing this is one of the things that inspired my Surana warden#She makes a deal with Mouse during her Harrowing and the whole time she's trying not to freak out like THEY'RE GONNA KNOW#(They do not know)

Mouse is great, I loved Mouse. I also feel like Templars probably didn't intend for Mages to get help from friendly Pride Demon/might-have-been-Spirit but they don't seem to know anything that happens in your Harrowing beyond 'have you killed the target demon'. So if a different demon possess you? Turns out they're oblivious.

So much of the Templar Order and the Circle of Magi is built on lies and hypocrisy.

physicist-pi 7h ago #personally I headcanon my spirit healer Hawke ended up having to agree to possession during the Meredith boss fight#just completely fucking burnt all her mana out and her spirit buddy basically went to help her out#she kept it very well under wraps until adamant and the fade #but yeah we even see Cassandra can't identify avaar possessions at all#and she's a seeker of truth

Yeah, you force a Spirit Healer into a grueling, deadly fight and it's a toss up if they walk back out possessed or not.

(Snorts) That's kind of pathetic. Seekers of Truth are meant to be elite and they are failing as badly as the Templars.

Secondly addressing tags that follow on from second part of this post:

tarasylsulahn 8h ago #I actually have Ama become possessed or something like it during Nature of the Beast#It's both how she learns the Arcane Warrior subclass#but also what opens her up to learning the Spirit Healer subclass#as until that point she's not got any special knack for spirits#No one notices#Except Wynn#The first time they see each other after is *something*

Hmm, with the phylactery trapped elven spirit? Yeah, I can see that, the memory transfer as a form of possession.

Sounds interesting.

commas-and-ampersands 7h ago #da origins#...do i dare make evie an abomination?#my cullenmance???#that'd be so fucking messy#i'm compelled#she is a spirit healer so like... pretty easy jump to make#god i'm going to devote so much time to this now lol#evie trevelyan

...Honestly can't comment on Cullen romances.

But go wild. Have fun. Glad I inspired interesting thoughts even as I give a half amused half apologetic grin in recognition of the joy and horror of having New Ideas, especially about a semi-established character/story.

tith 7h ago #so far as i recall the only time anyone ever like. ‘tests’ whether someone is possessed#as in like actually does something besides tell you whether they sense the presence of a demon through?? psychic means?#is when Merrill tastes Keran’s blood to determine that he’s not possessed#would be interesting to see more instances of possessions that are sort of flying under the radar but maybe not as seamless as Wynne#but like. i 🖤 anders + justice so i don’t get tired of exploring that one….#dragon age

'Sensing demons' does seem like the way to notice them. It's just people tend to be so bad at it. And even then mages seem to be better at it then Templars and it's like at least a 1/4 of a Templar's supposed job, to notice possessions.

The possibility that detecting possession is a blood mage specific skill? That's so juicy, so ironic.

Or I guess it could be Dalish skill? Which would make a certain amount of sense given the different way they interact with Mages and Spirits then culturally Andrastian people do, they would presumably have their own methods to detect possession which Merrill as a Keeper's First would presumably know.

Hmm.

emptykitkat 6h ago #dragon age#oooooooo fascinating actually#need an oc who is possessed now

Go for it! Glad people found my post inspiring.

varggies 6h ago #bioware was insane for making the templars and mages situation as complex as they did#and then expected everyone to want to side with the templars in da2#crazy shit#dragon age#the circle

We might have forgiven the brutality if only Templars were actually useful as opposed to being the root cause of most mage related problems in the first place.

Thirdly addressing the reblog by @raven-6-10 which now makes up the third part of my post:

Yeah. Like most Circles are culturally Andrastian, so you probably wouldn't have wide spread possession among the Mages, or if it was the case most Mages would not know that a high degree of other Mages are also possessed.

But Rivain's Dairsmuid Circle? A disputed territory that is still retains it's own culture, with several foreign influences on it? Either the Chantry didn't know about the continuing practice of Seers at all, or they sort of turned a blind eye until the Mage Rebellion had them deciding to take this opportunity to crack down and kill all the mages they could get their hands on, as an example to other Circles, especially if they could 'justify' it by finding that the Circle had been 'corrupted'.

And finally addressing the comments by @reformedvillain

reformedvillain 8h thinking about the Mages who got possessed but the Spirit/Demon was so down low they forgot/believed they imagined the possession to the point the Spirit/Demon went dormant 8h thinking about the public discovering Harrowing got plenty of mages possessed and they never stirred any trouble thus shifting the perception of Abominations Thedas wide and granting a naming rebrand for 'controlled Abominations' (like Anders or Wynne) 8h thinking about Demons possessing Mages but staying low until they can get their right moment and growing attached to their host and turning into Spirits inside and doing their best to protect their host

Neat ideas.

I can see how if the possession is very subtle you might fool yourself into believing it never happened. It's safer that way.

The Harrowing itself isn't public knowledge, only Templars who have witnessed it and Mages who have gone through it know what it is. You'd have to have a very good spin and some way of informing the public. It would be hard against the fear of mages and fear of demons that the Chantry has engineered into the public consciousness.

Spirits and Demons are highly influenced by the perception of them. So maybe, if a Mage Believed strongly enough in the positive qualities of a demon inclined Spirit possessing them, I can see how that might push the Spirit back towards a more friendly alignment, at least towards their host.

There really should be some word to describe a friendly possession as distinct from an unfriendly possession. I mean, maybe not in regions with strong Chantry presence, I can see how if a word separate from Abomination used to exist they might have worked to wipe it from the language. But people who regularly practice friendly possession should have their own terminology for it.

[briarruler]

Going to address the comments first in this fifth part of my post:

reformedvillain 19h in the Shale DLC you can get a little girl (Amelia) possessed with a Desire demon but the Demon promises to not do anything to the kid until she becomes an adult and in the meantime she canonically grows attached and turns into a Spirit of Love and renounces fully possessing her dearreader 16h wait she does??? i usually kill the demon but now i kinda wanna do this reformedvillain 15h @dearreader yes, it's confirmed in a short story ^^

Do you remember the name of the short story? I've always felt sorry for Kitty, but not enough to let her posses Amalia.

reformedvillain 18h As for shifting public perception it would change depending on the strength of Andrastian Faith in the region. Rivain might just go 'yeah ??? We've been known ???? You mean that's news for everyone else ?????' Nevarra might be sort of chill about it since they also fuck a lot with Demons/Spirits but places like Orlais which is basically Chantry Central, and the Free Marches which are pretty devout in answer to Tevinter invasion, it might be more complicated, maybe depending on who the King/Queen is Ferelden might be more chill but still pretty cautious (Alistair being quite critical of the Chantry and the whole Circle thing and his possible friendship with a Surana/Amell HoF and said mage being the Arl of Amarantine and whether they were successful/appreciated by the people). So many possibilities for Religious Schisms regarding their treatment of Mages and once again, you brought this upon yourselves, baby. In general the Chantry sitting their hegemony by strict control and monetisation of Magic/Mages and this same treatment being the reason why they end up falling is hilarious to me

Yeah, there would be major differences in reaction depending on which region you are talking and how indoctrinated/faithful the population is.

Exactly that, Mages are scapegoat, bogeyman and fruitful resource all in one, forming a fundamental pillar of Chantry control.

jenn2d2 10h I think a lot of whether they can notice depends on the mages running the Harrowing. I think they have some control over that environment BUT... there's always a chance they're also corrupted. I love the idea that there's a lot of room there, and like so many other 'absolutes' from the Chantry, it's a lot less cut and dried.

We never do get a clear answer on how much control of the Fade section and target demon the Mage overseeing the Harrowing has. Like could the First Enchanter give easier demons to apprentices they favor and harder demons to troublemakers? We don't know.

It does seem pretty likely that they can't actually see what is going on inside the Fade with the apprentice mage. Just, no one talks about knowing what the apprentice did, only if they passed or failed and how long it took them. Which is a serious oversight in a ritual that every apprentice who becomes a Mage of the Circle must go through.

theunsinkablesappho 6h No one, not Irving, not Greagoir, not Alistair, ever notices that Wynne is an abomination. The only person who maybe sort of might know is the apprentice who saw her die. Petra, I think? And she is either uncertain about what she saw, in denial about what she saw, or hiding it to protect Wynne from possible consequences.

This. Pretty sure it is Petra, but I think she's a Mage not an Apprentice. I suspect it's a bit of a combination of all three. Like I don't think Petra thinks Wynne is possessed, and if she ever had the thought she's quickly banished it. I'd say that this also implies there is not any visual effect when a Mage is possessed. Or at least the very least not any that couldn't be passed off as healing magic or maybe combat magic.

Secondly continuing to address tags attached to the original post:

crimsonphantasmagoria 17h ago #Quite literally what happened with wynne and faith#Nobody would have known if she hadn’t said something more or less

Basically yeah. Like clearly no once notices once a Mage is walking around possessed unless they do something blatant obvious.

You'd think that in the actual Harrowing ritual, where for centuries they've been sending in apprentice mages to face and kill a demon or fail and be killed by the demon/possessed by the demon/killed by the Templars, they might have set up something to detect possessions? But no, I think they are just running on how the Mage's body looks to the Templars observing and that the end of the Harrowing is triggered by the death of the target demon.

Like. I'm not even sure they know other demons and spirits can and do gatecrash the Harrowing?

I don't think all Harrowings get gatecrashers and given the very secretive nature of the Harrowing I also don't think mages talk about how their Harrowing went often or in much detail. So circle mages might end up with wildly different experiences of the Harrowing and not know it.

despitethequn 15h ago #the Templars are just an excuse for the Chantry to abuse and scare mages#they're literally useless for anything else and get tossed aside once their lyrium addiction incapacitates them#and like any police force their 'training' is left...wanting

I've seen people suggest that the actual main purpose of the Templars is to give the Chantry a standing military in every Andrastian country. Templars aka trained and armoured knights in full armour, stationed in all cities and roaming the country side, answerable only to the Chantry.

The idea that mages need controlling and the Chantry is the only group who can correctly and properly control them... it gives the Chantry incredible power, socially, economically and militarily.

andrastesdirtysocks 12h ago #templars once again being shitty even at their one job#as well as in general #... tho now i think that's why they're trying to make harrowing as scary as possible#you don't know what's about to happen#how to deal with it#all you know is that you will die or be made tranquil if you fuck up#bit of a stressful situation for a teen

It's like the Templars have an 'official job' that is an excuse for their existence, protecting the mages in their care and people from mages, which they are the Actual Worst at. Then they have their real job of enforcing Chantry power by creating Tranquil to fund the Circles, making Chantry obedient Mages in the Circles and enforcing public fear of mages so people will turn to the Chantry and the Templars for safety.

ashillayn 11h ago #wonder how many non-possessed mages they killed after a harrowing

I wonder how many Mages they kill for taking too long. From memory it is Mouse who tells you the Templars will kill you if you take too long in the Fade, but, honestly? I believe him. Of course 'too long' is probably variable depending on which Circle you are in and your relationship with the Templars and First Enchanter.

But yes. The Harrowing is a perfect excuse to kill apprentices deliberately or just by over enthusiastic Templars deciding you came out too disorientated or traumatized or fighting or upset and therefor must be possessed!

mysticcowboygod 42m ago #i often think about how pretty much the entire templar order is fooled by a straight up envy demon in dai#like holy shit guys. that's your job?? like one of your only jobs???#THEY'RE SO BAD AT IT.

I know. I... (Sigh) Yeah. I know.

It's so pathetic it would be funny if it wasn't killing people and so instead it's appalling. I genuinely think mages would be better a policing and teaching themselves. If nothing else it would be hard to worse then the Templars at stopping possessions.

There is a part of me that looks at the Templars and the Circle of Magi and goes: was this system actually engineered by the Chantry to increase fear of Mages and Chantry control by deliberately provoking mages to possession and so justifying the presence of a Chantry controlled military presence across multiple nations?

Probably not, but it sure looks like that sometimes!

The Envy Demon fooling the Templars and the Seekers in Dragon Age: Inquisition. The Desire Demons enchanting Templars to fight for them in Dragon Age: Origins. The Templars caught up obliviously in the Sloth Demon's trap in Dragon Age: Origins. Cullen assaulting a Templar (recruit?) for some other reason (might have been suspected mage sympathy or for sneaking off, don't remember) and then being genuinely surprised when he turns out to be possessed and attacked Cullen in return in Dragon Age: II. There are just so, so many instances of Templar incompetence when it comes to dealing with demons and possession.

Thirdly addressing tags that followed on the the fourth part of this post:

shirayuki7 8h ago #love this post#im off to go write a possessed mage now!!!!#ty ty ty briarruler

Cool. Mouse and Amell or a different spirit/mage pair? Well, either way, have fun!

[briarruler]

First addressing the comments:

ivalane Feb 24 @reformedvillain hey I LOVE this, could you tell me which short story?

Also asking the question I'd really like to know the answer to. If anyone can think of a canon text which mentions the final fate of a Kitty possessed Amalia (from Dragon Age: Origins - The Stone Prisoner), drop the title and where to find it in the comments, tags or replies please.

vineee2000 Feb 27 I'd imagine the facts in the premise are true, but I disagree with the implication the templars NEED 100% accurate detection of subtle posessions for the Harrowing to work? The student is stressed and doesn't exactly know what is coming. The environment is fairly controlled, and the demon is something of a known quantity since the Circle facilitates it being there. Like, it is maybe possible for a really cunning demon to pull something off in these circumstances, but I feel it'd be more of a once in a lifetime occurence than an ongoing problem that breakes the procedure

I mean firstly, we see that Templars often fair incredibility badly against demons. And a demon with prep time? A demon who can recruit other mages to their side? A demon who can facilitate the possession of more Circle Mages and even Templars?

That's like a Templars worst nightmare. That's 'oh Maker we need to Annul the Circle and call reinforcements and we're all going to die'.

Once in a life time is far, far to frequent to be sustainable.

And as you say, the Harrowing is a controlled environment where the Templars have ordered the First Enchanter to invite a demon to possess an apprentice. Possession is a known risk and there should be no interruption or uncontrolled factors that make it harder to detect a possession. All of these. Centuries of doing this. Choosing the time, the place and the participants.

And yet? There is no indication that they have a reliable way to detect if a Harrowed mage walks out possessed or not. They are subjecting mages to a stressful situation designed to get them possessed without bothering to invent a ward or enchantment that would detect possession and simply watching the mage's unconscious body and reaction after they pass the Harrow to determine if they need to die or not.

Honestly? I don't consider the Harrowing practical in the first place. Ritual yes and maybe religious and definitely a tool of terror, but not a practical teaching method or exam.

Like what useful thing does it do. It doesn't prove you can resist demonic possession, firstly because it is clearly an unnatural situation and not how you would normally encounter a demon. It's only really useful if you encounter another Harrowing or very similar situation which is unlikely. Second the Templars clearly don't consider it proof, considering Harrowed mages are still stuck in the Tower.

Basically it's just another way of proving the Templars have all the control and a mage must dance to their whims or die. After all dealing with demons is 'bad' but hey, we are going to summon a demon and make you fight it to the death, succeed or die, so we Templars can order you mages to deal with demons, only as we like.

I guess the most teaching moment it provides is indoctrinating new Templars to distance themselves from and kill mages. Hard to be friends with someone you know you might be called up to murder.

In a lot of ways this less about the Harrow itself, then that the Templars can't even reliably detect possession in a situation where they are deliberately setting up a mage to be possessed and are actively watching the entire time.

And sure the Target Demon is known, the one you have to kill to complete your Harrowing, but some Mages also get gatecrashing Fade Spirits. The Mage Warden's Target Demon was a Rage Demon, but they also had a Demon of Sloth and a Spirit of Valor hanging out, plus whatever Mouse was, Pride Demon or some kind of spirit perceived as such.

magnetic-dragons Apr 21 As nice as this interpretation is, it's unfortunate that a mage's ability to "resist possession" is sometimes probably not the sole indicator of them passing their Harrowing. I agree with @vinee2000 the templars purposefully set the Mages up to fail (not just for the Harrowing, but in lots of other ways as well. It's a whole institutional designed to control and exploit mages, I mean they even use the Tranquil to fund the Circles so there is financial incentive for many to use the Rite liberally). While I do agree that the Templars as "anti-mage/abomination" forces is definitely vastly overstated, the Harrowing is DANGEROUS and several Templars will definitely exploit any excuse to reduce the Mage population within the Tower. Or maybe I misread this and that's what you meant? If so, very sorry.

I'd honestly interpreted what @vineee2000 said as 'the Harrowing works' which I really don't agree with. This post is mostly looking on the semi-positive side, I guess? But the same fact which would let demons walk out of there in a Mage's body is the same one that would have them slaughtering Mages who passed and came up fighting or panicking or confused.

Like, the most basic premise of this post is: I don't think the Templars can truly tell if a mage is possessed, they are just guessing and taking in obvious clues. Which could theoretically lead to a possessed mage walking away, but honestly is more likely to lead to a distressed or agitated mage who passed their Harrowing getting killed 'just in case'.

It's just, it is such a controlled situation, it's stupid that there is no indication they have a reliable way of telling.

...Which really almost comes back around so that you have to consider if this lack of ability to tell if a mage is possessed is actually an institutionally considered a positive. Another way for the Chantry, the Circle, the Templars to oppress and exploit mages, that there is no way to prove you are not possessed so the Templars have further justification for to culling mage freedoms and mage lives. If the Templars can't tell who is possessed, it justifies acting as if every mage is possessed.

Continuing now with tags attached to the first part of my post:

crowcoffin Feb 25 #i've always thought there are more spirits piggybacking around than people claim

Who's going to talk about being possessed? It's a death sentence. Basically only people with no survival instincts, nothing to lose or no ability to conceal it would flaunt it. And if you don't flaunt it. Who's going to notice? Certainly not the Templars.

thiefbird Feb 25 #my elf-mage warden got possessed by the pride demon mouse in my persona headcanon#shes mostly normal usually#they definitely did not detect it in her bc she and mouse hashed shit out

Who wouldn't want to be possessed by Mouse? Really I've certainly made attempts to have my mage character agree to a deal or otherwise get possessed. But the dialogue options just aren't there. Like either Mouse was not angling for a possession, which says interesting things about them, or they should have included a non-standard game over where you get possessed.

...Maybe I should name a Mage Warden Mouse sometime and do a replay in the role of 'Warden (Demon) Mage (Mouse) Amell' who is definitely a normal mage and not secretly a demon.

vulvalini Feb 25 #YAAAAAAAAS I LOVE IT#tell me more about templar incompetence#lying on my bed kicking my feet :D

The rest of this post is basically an ongoing rant about Templar incompetence. Or well, incompetence at protecting people from demons, they are very good at threatening people, making mages seem scary and providing the Chantry with a standing army stationed across multiple nations.

dreamingofthewild Feb 25 #I love incompetent templars#But also the idea of this only being able to happen with a mage who is smart calm and able to convince the spirit/ demon to work with them#So I don't think it would be incredibly common but it's more common than everyone thinks#Like you would have to not give into fear rage or any strong emotion which takes a lot of willpower

Yeah. It didn't strike me has very likely to happen. But it does seem like something that could happen and no-one seems to consider it. It would take a very strange Mage-Fade Spirit/Demon pair to both consider it as a viable option and then to successfully pull it off.

What might be more common is demons using the Harrowing to suss mages out and then contacting them in their dreams later. After all 'I helped through your Harrowing while those Templars stood over your defenseless body with drawn blades' and 'well if the Chantry sanctions demon summoning for the Harrowing, then clearly not all dealing with demons is bad' are somewhat persuasive arguments.

veshta Feb 26 #Wynne literally got possessed and no one noticed#sure they were busy but it's not like anyone was eager to check#even with all the abomination scare#DAO my beloved and your unreliable narrator storytelling 😌 You'll always be Number One to me!

Exactly. Like no-one checks before they authorize her to leave the tower that was just cleared of demons? No-one? Seriously?

Like. Setting aside gross incompetence for the moment. This really does imply that they don't have any method of checking. Nothing. Zilch. If you aren't given away by body mutations or behavioral changes, they have no way of detecting possessions.

perinope Feb 27 #yeah there's that one of cole's visions about vivienne's harrowing where he says she smiles to show that it's still her#so like realistically yeah#you'd just need to be chipper to not alert the templars

By that metric demons might have a better chance then mages.

Mage: just been flung into an incredibility stressful fight for their life and killed a demon only to be face to face with those Templars who forced them into this and threatened to kill them (again).

Demon: successfully possessed a mage and gained access to the mortal world, having a grand time, face to face with some Templars who they could probably successfully kill if they tried.

Who do you think feels more like smiling in this situation?

lynx-1512 Feb 27 #Sure that's when superstitions and witchhunts come in#Like calling a mage abomination bc she's having a baby or a mage receiving letters from the outside

Not the Harrowing specifically (I'm sure the Templars think that any Harrowed Mage who they pass and is is later revealed to be possessed, oh so righteously they believe got possessed after they were Harrowed not during), but that they can't detect possession in general? Yeah.

I mean, both of those activities are borderline illegal for Mages anyway.

It seems to depend on the Circle and the status of the Mage, but sometimes Circle Mages can receive occasional letters from outside the Circle and sometimes a mage discovered with smuggled letters from their family will be made Tranquil and the Templar smuggling the letters for them kicked out of the Order.

Don't remember if Mages are specifically punished for getting pregnant, but having your newborn ripped from your arms and shoved into a Chantry orphanage, well that's nasty enough on it's own. I definitely could see mood swings or diet changes resulting in an accusation of possession that may or may not be cleared up by the mage being revealed to be pregnant. (Wince) Dealing with postpartum depression in the Circle sounds like an actual nightmare.

danielnelsen Mar 1 #still trying to decide if alim lets mouse possess him in his harrowing#but if he does…yeah. like they literally don’t notice because he’s calm

What reasons do Alim have to let Mouse possess him? What are the benefits to him? What does he consider the risks? Cause honestly, I like Mouse, I'd like to continue hanging out with Mouse, but I'm not willing to die or give up control of my body for Mouse.

And honestly... what's Mouse getting out of it, because you can't actually get possessed in canon, which really makes me wonder if Mouse actually wants to possess you.

They could always agree to a post Harrowing meet up?

...Which may or may not happen depending on if you think the Mage Warden was 'dreaming' during that time they spend unconscious post Harrowing and if not, then if Mouse can track down the Mage Warden once they have left the Tower with Duncan.

Next with tags attached to the second part of my post:

spiritbladed Feb 25 #100% those bitches could NOT do their job

Genuinely, I am increasingly inclined towards the idea that a Templar's job isn't to protect people from mages or demons. It's to threaten people with mages and demons, to terrorize mages so they can't function in society and to provide the Chantry with a standing military in every nation.

voxaris Feb 25 #*looks at my amell* hm.

Do it. Do it. I chant quietly, far too invested in other people having mage characters with Fade Spirit friends.

ferelden-cowboy Feb 27 #yeah templars dont know shit

The worst. They've had centuries to collect knowledge and skills, yet somehow they just. Haven't.

ladyhighever Mar 27 #yessss this is how emmaera ends up with her friend valor :)#not quite allowing them to possess her but :) valor is there for the hard things#emmaera surana

Every couple of years a mage accidentally reinvents being a Spirit Healer/Spirit Warrior/Necromancer, I say only half joking.

[briarruler]

Addressing these comments by @reformedvillain

reformedvillain 1h I'm so mad I can't find the short story again. I remember reading and coming across mentions of it in the wiki but I can't remember where it's os upsetting, feels like I've gaslit myself ! If I find it again I'll link it !

(Wince) I know that feeling. Where you're like 'I'm so sure this was mentioned in canon somewhere but where. Where!?' And then it ends up being something really obscure or implied and you only come across it months later by accident.

(Hmm, mentally shuffling through notes to find what I'm thinking of.) Actually been on a Dragon Age kick and came across a reference to a wiki page while reblogging a post. Could you mean Kitty's Collar? According to the wiki it's a unique amulet in Dragon Age: Inquisition and the wiki page includes a short story that's fairly close to what you where talking about?

reformedvillain 1h In my head, my Surana went to study possession from different groups to help Justice gain a body of his own that did not imply him possessing a corpse but came back too late to save him and Anders which caused him to kick the Templar Order from Amarantine all together by using proof of a conspiracy against the Grey Warden by infiltrating them. 'Officially' Amarantine still has a Chantry but since my Surana basically saved everyone's arses several times since becoming their Arl they became very upset the Chantry tried to deposit him through sneaky Templar intervention. Anyways, what I meant to say is that my Warden who's already an Arcane Warrior/Spirit Healer/Shapeshifter just became the worst Templar nightmare ever by getting casually possessed by various Spirits in fights and using his shapeshifting/healing/fighting abilities to wreck shop onto any fucktwad who bothers his Arling or the mages living there even remotely. (I like to imagine there was a Circle in Amarantine and he took over it after the conspiracy and pretends it's working the same as regular Circles to keep the Chantry calm but there's no Harrowing and once the Mages have proper training they are free to fuck around so long as they respect the laws of the land like any regular citizen)

Sounds cool.

Warden-Commander Surana, Arl of Amaranthine, Hero of Ferelden, backed by the Grey Wardens and the citizens of Ferelden who both their own reasons to beef with the Orlesian Chantry: get your murderous little Grey Warden attacking Templars get out of my Arling.

It would be very fun if the Ferelden Chantry seceded from the Olesian Chantry. Wars of religion getting more complicated as a third Chantry sets up, with their own ideas of what is canon to the Chant of Light and boasting of both being the birth place of Andraste and housing the Temple of Sacred Ashes.

You've got to love how terrifyingly overpowered a Mage Warden. It's very satisfying.

Pretty sure that it's canon that Ferelden only has the one Circle of Magi, but more then one would would make sense considering that Kirkwall alone has a it's own Circle and the kingdom of Ferelden is a little larger then a City State... one presumes.

But I could also see a Mage Warden Commander starting their own mage training school, after all Ferelden does seem to have an unusually high number of Apostates. Or them very 'sweetly' and 'cooperatively' setting up a local Circle to help with any 'concerns' the Chantry might have.

Surana, with fake sincerity: So sorry we can't let any Templars in, they keep on attacking important Fereldens and Grey Wardens, but I promise we have the mages well supervised and under control. Us Grey Wardens have a long history of mage recruits and King/Warden Alistair was training as a Templar, he became a Grey Warden just before he would have taken his vows to the Templar Order. So we know exactly what we are doing.

Who did your Surana go to first? The Dalish, the Avvar, the Seers of Rivain or some other groups? Did they visit all of them?

Tags on the sixth part of my post:

withering-chariot 15h ago #long post#this is so useful to know#giving me character ideas now

Glad to know that rambling is coherent enough to be useful. I love giving people character ideas. (Bounces happily about people liking/being interested in ideas/thoughts I had.)

[briarruler]

Mage Origin Thought: I think it would be hilarious if your Mage Warden had been completely sincere about being willing to help Mouse get across the Veil. Like they're not willing to let him posses them and they're not willing to risk Templars over it, but if they were ever in a circumstance were they could get assistance in safely summoning a specific spirit from the Fade - they'd be willing to do it.

And then they end up one of two surviving Grey Wardens in Ferelden, duty-bound to end a Blight with only the assistance of a witch and some Ancient Treaties. If there was anyone it might be safe to ask for help in summoning a probably demon, it would be the Witches of the Wilds, yes?

And that's how Mouse becomes the fourth member of this little company out to stop the Blight. Alistair is so out it from grief and relief that it takes him a bit to really question where the Warden's 'friend from the Circle' came from.

[briarruler]

chiyuki-hiro May 13 (Sorry if you're just trying to have fun OP but I need to vent a bit.) I think that's why to this day, I'm still upset over the reveal about Mouse being a demon that was trying to possess the pc. I'm not usually too upset when an npc in a game betrays me by trying to manipulate me (hell, one of my favorite romaceable characters in a different game lies to the pc about who he is right off the bat & tries to lie, gaslight & manipulate her throughout most of the game's story.) But with Mouse, we're not really given an option in how we react to the reveal. Bro just reveals himself to be an evil demon & leaves. & I feel like the game doesn't really try to give us time to process it, which for me was not great. I actually got attached to this fucker & now the game is just gonna rip him away like that???

(Gestures dismissively) I like people talking to me as long as they are civil about it. And at least vaguely on topic.

I really like Mouse, possible demon and all. I do agree it a real pity that Mouse never gets any cameos or mentions later in the game. It would be fun! You could meet him again during Broken Circle. Or just mention him somewhere in dialogue.

However given things we later learn about Spirits, demons, the Fade and mortal perception I think that Mouse in particularly is interestingly ambiguous in where along the Spirit-Demon spectrum he sits. Mouse will never (as far as I am aware) actually possess you or attack you. Now this could just be an out of universe game developmental thing, not wanting to code a non-standard game over for accepting a demon's possession, but in-universe it is interesting.

Either Mouse is playing a long game (very possible) or he's not actually interested in possessing the Mage Warden (my view).

Given how much he knows about the Harrowing, he could be aware that it is not an ideal time to possess a mage and is planning on helping Amell/Surana through theirs, becoming familiar with them and then continuing the relationship post Harrowing in dreams with the goal of later possessing them. And this plan is thwarted by Amell/Surana being recruited/imprisoned/killed. However you'd think he'd keep up a more harmless-friendly facade instead of ominously revealing himself as a Pride demon and implying he was the actual Harrowing test.

Which brings you over to the other possibility. Spirits of Wisdom can become Demons of Pride. Spirits can also be perceived as demons by a mortal's biases and happening often enough, become them. Mouse will tell you a lot about the Fade, will teach you a lot about the Fade, and give you helpful advice to succeeding in your Harrowing. I think it is completely possible that the Rage Demon you kill really was your Harrowing test and that Mouse is a spirit who, like the Spirit of Valor and the Sloth Demon also present, simply happens to be, or has deliberately wandered, into the area of the Fade used for your Harrowing.

How much of what you see of Mouse, is actually what Mouse is? How much tinted by Amell's/Surana's perception of what Mouse is. How much of Mouse is a facade, a role they are playing? Is the role they are playing intended to deceive your or intended to teach you? Does that intent change by interacting with you?

…Honestly I should definitely do a run of The Harrowing choosing all of the most naive dialogue options and a run skipping the boosts from Valor and Sloth.

Anyway.

It's a pretty impactful moment in a Circle Mage's life, their Harrowing and it's a pity your Warden doesn't gets chances to reflect back on it. But, well game play limitations. Looking at it from an in-universe perspective, Circle Mages are forbidden to talk about their Harrowings. It's a secret, and even having been recruited as a Warden I could see the threat of that secrecy sticking with them. Plus neither talking about how your were fooled by a demon or how nice and helpful you found a demon are safe topics.

So. Realistically?

I think that Chantry indoctrination is very strong. Both as a wider cultural norm and in the specific ideologies impressed upon Circle Mages. Even a Mage who somehow gets away from the Circle is unlikely to not to have picked up a lot of nasty little biases and general trauma that affects how they interact with Fade Spirits.

Then between between how often Spirits are twisted by piercing the Veil and how influence-able they are by perception...

So your Mage Warden would have to be particularly weird. First in being open to helping Mouse cross the Veil. Then in being able to view and interact with Mouse in such a way that they are not subconsciously project 'demon' and 'demon behaviors' onto Mouse.

And even if your Mage Warden is managing to to walk the line of good mage, summoner and friend, there is still the rest of Thedas to deal with. Plus, Mouse themself.

Mouse seems to have spent some time hanging around in the Circle Tower and Harrowing Fade space. Enough to get a reasonable insight into how the Circle of Magi work. Which I would presume is a fairly Chantry cultured Fade space.

What I mean by this, is that it seems when beliefs are widespread enough they influence Spirits, not just through mortal perception of them, but seeming more directly on the Spirit itself. Not sure how much. Or how it works really. But I do think that 'Chantry' Spirits view themselves and Demons in a manner influenced by the Chantry view of 'good spirits' and 'bad demons'. What Ferelden has going for it is that it's not densely populated, it has linger pre-Chantry folklore and it still has a lot of marginalized non-Chantry cultures influencing and around it.

Or basically I'm hoping that Mouse's ambiguity and proximity to non-Chantry cultures is indicative of a degree of flexibility in their self-image and presentation that a more firmly Chantry cultured Spirit might not have. So that Mouse can do things like 'make a deal with a Mage and willing cross the Veil', aka two things that the Chantry culture views pretty firmly as demonic, without fundamentally viewing themself as a demon.

Of course even if everything goes perfectly with the Mage Warden and with Mouse there is still the rest of Ferelden. I guess a lot of it would be helped by people just not knowing Mouse is a Fade Spirit. Although he'd probably still be presenting himself as a Mage, so lot of potential for negative views and interactions with mortals there.

The Warden's Companions are more likely to be a problem because they are more likely to know and spend a lot of time with Mouse.

Though, it wouldn't surprise me if the summoning made it so that Mouse is mostly influenced by their own actions and maybe the Mage Warden's views of them and not so much other mortals views.

Flemeth just by virtue of being very distinctly Not Chantry Affiliated might have some good summoning or binding or deal related magics that could help keep Mouse stable. Not much use in helping the Warden you rescued summon a Fade Spirit if the Fade Spirit is going to actively endanger the Warden's ability to fight the Blight.

So. It wouldn't be easy, it would have a lot of potential to go wrong, but maybe a Mage Warden could have Mouse as one of their Companions in their quest to stop the Fifth Blight.

...It does also raise the question of why Mouse would be willing to risk crossing the Veil and sticking around to fight the Blight. Cause I'm going with the ideal of a willing cooperation and summoning here.

Maybe the Deal was, I Summon you here to the mortal side of the Veil and in return you travel with an aid us against any obstruction with encounter until we reach and are departing from Lothering. Then Mouse is like, this is neat actually, I'm going to continue traveling with you.

Maybe Mouse also thinks that the Blight needs combating and pledges to help this Grey Warden mage in their quest to end the Fifth Blight.

Maybe they make a deal for Mouse to teach the Mage Warden a particular trick or spell or class of magic. Either with Mouse being free to wander or banished back to the Fade when the teaching is complete.

Maybe Mouse really likes the Mage Warden. (Shrugs) Who knows.

[briarruler]

You know… I'm not actually convinced that the Templars would always notice if you got possessed during your Harrowing?

Like they don't have the best track record for noticing that people are possessed? Sure if you're glowing, speaking in double voice or visibly mutated they notice. But if you look normal and act normal, they don't.

To all appearances Templars don't have have any special ability to detect possession. Special ability to provoke spirit/demon flare up possibly yes, but that is by being a traumatizing, violent, threatening, abusive and all round a terrible person that their victim knows can and will murder them.

'Abominations' (for lack of a better word) seem to have some degree of adjustment period, but it isn't always extreme and seems to act up mostly in response to strong negative surprises.

A patient, calm level headed spirit/mage pair who entered into the possession willing and in full anticipation of how they would need to Not React to the Templars. Or a very skillful demon who managed to take possession of a mage very smooth in full knowledge of the situation they would be getting into. These seem like instance were a Mage could walk away from their Harrowing possessed without the Templars having a clue.

[briarruler]

Delightful by the quick response

@imissorzammar 3h ago #lmao yep probably gigkfkfkdkdkd

and general agreement

@iovaras 2h ago #i cannot emphasize how hilarious it is that wynne got possessed while surrounded by other mages and no one noticed. #like different scenario for sure bc there was a fight going on and they arent templars#but it feels relevant

in the tags

@dick-hardboiled 2h ago #Looks at wynne

Wynne is a very relevant example in the context of Circles failing to notice possessions.

I did have a moment were I wondered if maybe the First Enchanter as the very experienced and lone mage overseeing the Harrowing might notice… then went hmm no, probably not.

(I suspect mages might have a slight advantage over Templars, in that I remember scenes of them showing some sensitivity to beings moving across the veil, but well first you would have to notice it happening, second you would have to recognize what just happened and third you have to be both sure enough in your suspicion of the possession and willing to report to the Templars that you sensed someone getting possessed.)

So Wynne.

Her not being noticed right away makes a fair amount of sense. She gets possessed in the middle of battle and she and all the other nearby mages are fighting for their lives. It is also a battle against demons and demon possessed mages, if there is some sort of magic pulse or shift when a spirit crosses the veil or possesses someone it's very like to be put down to another demon popping up. She was also just heavily injured and a spirit healer, if a nearby mage felt a spirit suddenly become particularly close I think their first thought would be more 'emergency spirit healing' then 'possession' especially when Wynne doesn't turn around and start attacking them.

So her being overlooked while the tower is overrun with abominations, demons, stray blood mages and several enchanted Templars makes sense. It's much more funny that the Templar just let her walk out of the Circle they almost Annulled for being overrun by blood mages turned demon possessed abominations. Like that's a total fail. There isn't even any indication that they try to check her for possession, but they should have been on high alert for it.

@ikarons 1h ago #i have been saying this the whole time #i think there are a lot more possessed mages than the chantry knows about! just in the circle! #like… a) WILL the templars notice. if you get possessed willingly during the harrowing by a spirit who doesn’t immediately explode you . no #but also b) even if you don’t get possessed At Your Harrowing… #i think the harrowing Introduces the idea in a really close up intimate way #like you’re shoved directly into the fade with no warning specifically to test you against spirits/demons #As The Warden we have successful interactions with a few! #if you meet a spirit of valour during your harrowing who won’t possess you bc it has no interest in the material world#but is kind and helpful and wishes you the best #what better way to plant that seed in your head.#but also yeah like. the harrowing is the perfect time to get it done also. hello #i think it is a lot more common than we’re shown #i also think spirit healers are Unusually commonly possessed lol#not bc it’s a requirement (i don’t think it is) but bc they are kind of predisposed to it by the nature of their work#and the experiences it gives them wrt spirits

I agree with you on all points.

The Chantry is only going to know about possessions that go wrong, possessions that get discovered. But we've seen several times that possessed people can look and act perfectly normal right up until something stresses them so badly that their spirit feels it has to react. Plus if a benevolent possession did get found out, it's not like the Templars are going to record that, they're just going to kill that mage, pat themselves on the back and say good riddance.

The entire set up of the Circle does not encourage any possessed mage to be open and honest about what is going on. As a matter of life and death they are going to hide it and never breath a word to anyone. Not tell their students or their peers or record it in their dairy. And even if they do tell someone, and that person keeps it secret from the Templars, then that person has good incentive to keep it secret even past the possessed mage's death, because if the Templars found out they knew and didn't report a possession, well, it's not going to be pretty.

Post Harrowing possessions!

You meet a Spirit during your Harrowing. You chat with them. The spirit helps you. You like the spirit, maybe started to consider them a friend. You kill the demon. You pass your Harrowing. The spirit who talked to you and helped you through the Harrow starts visiting your dreams now you are an official Mage of the Circle. Sometime later you agree to them possessing you. No one notices.

Why do you agree? Maybe you trust them. Maybe you are lonely. Maybe you are curious. Maybe you are bored. Maybe you are angry. Maybe you are depressed and don't want to be trapped here in this life anymore. Maybe you want to help them. Maybe you are afraid of demons and decide that choosing who possess you is better then waiting until you falter. Maybe you keep seeing your fellow mages leave you, death, Tranquility, transfer to another circle, and you want a friend who will be with you always. Maybe you want to study a particular type of magic but are not skilled at it.

There are all sorts of reasons a mage might agree to a possession.

Spirit Healers having unusually high levels of possession is basically canon. What with both Anders and Wynne being possessed spirit healers. I think Spirit Healing requires the ability to attract and interact with spirits at a higher level then most mages, but becoming possessed is completely optional. It's just that they interact with benevolent spirits regularly, with the mage becoming familiar with the spirits they rely up and the spirits becoming familiar with the mage they help.

I think this intimacy with Spirits also contributes to the rarity of Spirit Healers. As in it is not just rare to have the knack, but for all that a fully trained spirit healer is valuable, I bet mages with the potential are more likely to be killed by Templars. Probably not helped by the offensive nature of the Harrowing, as a mage who is disinclined to violence might struggle more when suddenly forced into a death match with a demon, although their greater familiarity with spirits might also help.

Of course all this assumes that the Templars both allow the apprentice mage to undergo the Harrowing in the first place, and that they don't terrifying them into choosing Tranquility when making the choice between the unknown and dangerous ritual test suddenly thrust upon them in the middle of the night and the known horror of the Tranquil.

[raven-6-10]

Oh, the Chantry and the Templars definitely don't have accurate records there and the mages sure don't tell them.

Just look at Rivain! Dairsmuid Circle straight up trained mages in the traditional seer techniques that involved voluntary possessions. And nobody who knew talked about it! It wasn't found out until the Seekers went there to Annul the Circle (you won't convince me they weren't already planning it and fully expecting to come up with a justification post facto). And I headcanon they only found out because they themselves are possessed by Faith spirits, even if they aren't aware of it.

[briarruler]

Going to work my way down responses in the tags by order of which part of this post they follow on from.

Firstly continuing to address tags attached to the original post:

@kirkwallguy 12h ago #YEPPP. and tbh i think even a lot of mages might be slightly possessed while not fully knowing about it #since they've been taught all their life that possession is violent and painful and scary #and this is just a nice presence keeping them safe. how do they know it's not the maker.

That's a fascinating idea. I never would have thought of it but now you've mentioned it, I can really see it.

Also given I go with the headcanon that Andraste was simply a very powerful mage possessed by a very powerful spirit, well, you could kind of say they're right?

@shirayuki7 10h ago #oh man i need a possessed mage warden#could you imagine#say a warden amell#accepts the pride demons deal during their harrowing

Mouse is nice. I liked him. Also the sheer irony of First Enchanter Irving's star pupil walking out of the Harrowing possessed, right under his and the Knight-Commanders noses, and no-one noticing. Being praised on how quick and clean their Harrowing was.

You've got to wonder what the Joining does to an abomination, does it differ from how it affects a normal recruit. Like, I'd assume possessed mages have undergone the Joining at some point in Grey Warden history, but I don't remember any canon mention of such?

Canonically Justice possessed a Grey Warden corpse and then possessed a Grey Warden mage, but both of those bodies had already undergone the Joining when he possessed them, plus Justice was already in odd circumstances for a Spirit. Hmm.

wardenalissa 10h ago #exactly#deeply unlikely wynne is some freak aberration#her spirit liked her im sure a LOT of mages have spirits who fuck w their vibes

Yeah, no, I think that the circumstances aligned such that she was possessed but it wasn't about anything truly unique to her. Actually I suspect it might be a pretty common possibility for any Spirit Healer dying in combat. Or other specialties that involve close and willing work with spirits.

The deep bond, the attachment and trust between a mage and a spirit that watches over them, and suddenly their mage is dying and desperately doesn't want to be? Recipe for sudden possession, and a benevolent, functioning possession because they are familiar with each other and trust each other and the spirit has been glimpsing the mortal world through their mage's work for some time so the transition is less of a shock.

heliomanteia 10h ago #🎮#da#I don't mean to sound like an ass /gen but I thought this was always the underlying issue/flaw of the Order #Like in DAO I think if you play a mage Cullen talks about how they spot abominations and it's obvious they only know One Particular Kind#The trashy and loud ones. WHICH. With Vivienne's story in mind might give false positives if a mage is just... panicked but not possessed #But it can also give false negatives if a mage is very composed and/or dissociates the fuck out of it or if a demon is smart#Like Templars do NOT work is the point of the whole thing y'know#Good post tho

No your fine, and like you're right. It really is one of the underlying and kind of obvious flaws of the Templar-Circle system. But that doesn't stop people from missing it. And sometimes one just wants to say something that seems obvious to check that other people have also noticed and agreed with their conclusion. And to, like, check their thought doesn't have some flaw they've overlooked.

teyrnacousland 8h ago #Yessss realizing this is one of the things that inspired my Surana warden#She makes a deal with Mouse during her Harrowing and the whole time she's trying not to freak out like THEY'RE GONNA KNOW#(They do not know)

Mouse is great, I loved Mouse. I also feel like Templars probably didn't intend for Mages to get help from friendly Pride Demon/might-have-been-Spirit but they don't seem to know anything that happens in your Harrowing beyond 'have you killed the target demon'. So if a different demon possess you? Turns out they're oblivious.

So much of the Templar Order and the Circle of Magi is built on lies and hypocrisy.

physicist-pi 7h ago #personally I headcanon my spirit healer Hawke ended up having to agree to possession during the Meredith boss fight#just completely fucking burnt all her mana out and her spirit buddy basically went to help her out#she kept it very well under wraps until adamant and the fade #but yeah we even see Cassandra can't identify avaar possessions at all#and she's a seeker of truth

Yeah, you force a Spirit Healer into a grueling, deadly fight and it's a toss up if they walk back out possessed or not.

(Snorts) That's kind of pathetic. Seekers of Truth are meant to be elite and they are failing as badly as the Templars.

Secondly addressing tags that follow on from second part of this post:

tarasylsulahn 8h ago #I actually have Ama become possessed or something like it during Nature of the Beast#It's both how she learns the Arcane Warrior subclass#but also what opens her up to learning the Spirit Healer subclass#as until that point she's not got any special knack for spirits#No one notices#Except Wynn#The first time they see each other after is *something*

Hmm, with the phylactery trapped elven spirit? Yeah, I can see that, the memory transfer as a form of possession.

Sounds interesting.

commas-and-ampersands 7h ago #da origins#...do i dare make evie an abomination?#my cullenmance???#that'd be so fucking messy#i'm compelled#she is a spirit healer so like... pretty easy jump to make#god i'm going to devote so much time to this now lol#evie trevelyan

...Honestly can't comment on Cullen romances.

But go wild. Have fun. Glad I inspired interesting thoughts even as I give a half amused half apologetic grin in recognition of the joy and horror of having New Ideas, especially about a semi-established character/story.

tith 7h ago #so far as i recall the only time anyone ever like. ‘tests’ whether someone is possessed#as in like actually does something besides tell you whether they sense the presence of a demon through?? psychic means?#is when Merrill tastes Keran’s blood to determine that he’s not possessed#would be interesting to see more instances of possessions that are sort of flying under the radar but maybe not as seamless as Wynne#but like. i 🖤 anders + justice so i don’t get tired of exploring that one….#dragon age

'Sensing demons' does seem like the way to notice them. It's just people tend to be so bad at it. And even then mages seem to be better at it then Templars and it's like at least a 1/4 of a Templar's supposed job, to notice possessions.

The possibility that detecting possession is a blood mage specific skill? That's so juicy, so ironic.

Or I guess it could be Dalish skill? Which would make a certain amount of sense given the different way they interact with Mages and Spirits then culturally Andrastian people do, they would presumably have their own methods to detect possession which Merrill as a Keeper's First would presumably know.

Hmm.

emptykitkat 6h ago #dragon age#oooooooo fascinating actually#need an oc who is possessed now

Go for it! Glad people found my post inspiring.

varggies 6h ago #bioware was insane for making the templars and mages situation as complex as they did#and then expected everyone to want to side with the templars in da2#crazy shit#dragon age#the circle

We might have forgiven the brutality if only Templars were actually useful as opposed to being the root cause of most mage related problems in the first place.

Thirdly addressing the reblog by @raven-6-10 which now makes up the third part of my post:

Yeah. Like most Circles are culturally Andrastian, so you probably wouldn't have wide spread possession among the Mages, or if it was the case most Mages would not know that a high degree of other Mages are also possessed.

But Rivain's Dairsmuid Circle? A disputed territory that is still retains it's own culture, with several foreign influences on it? Either the Chantry didn't know about the continuing practice of Seers at all, or they sort of turned a blind eye until the Mage Rebellion had them deciding to take this opportunity to crack down and kill all the mages they could get their hands on, as an example to other Circles, especially if they could 'justify' it by finding that the Circle had been 'corrupted'.

And finally addressing the comments by @reformedvillain

reformedvillain 8h thinking about the Mages who got possessed but the Spirit/Demon was so down low they forgot/believed they imagined the possession to the point the Spirit/Demon went dormant 8h thinking about the public discovering Harrowing got plenty of mages possessed and they never stirred any trouble thus shifting the perception of Abominations Thedas wide and granting a naming rebrand for 'controlled Abominations' (like Anders or Wynne) 8h thinking about Demons possessing Mages but staying low until they can get their right moment and growing attached to their host and turning into Spirits inside and doing their best to protect their host

Neat ideas.

I can see how if the possession is very subtle you might fool yourself into believing it never happened. It's safer that way.

The Harrowing itself isn't public knowledge, only Templars who have witnessed it and Mages who have gone through it know what it is. You'd have to have a very good spin and some way of informing the public. It would be hard against the fear of mages and fear of demons that the Chantry has engineered into the public consciousness.

Spirits and Demons are highly influenced by the perception of them. So maybe, if a Mage Believed strongly enough in the positive qualities of a demon inclined Spirit possessing them, I can see how that might push the Spirit back towards a more friendly alignment, at least towards their host.

There really should be some word to describe a friendly possession as distinct from an unfriendly possession. I mean, maybe not in regions with strong Chantry presence, I can see how if a word separate from Abomination used to exist they might have worked to wipe it from the language. But people who regularly practice friendly possession should have their own terminology for it.

[briarruler]

Going to address the comments first in this fifth part of my post:

reformedvillain 19h in the Shale DLC you can get a little girl (Amelia) possessed with a Desire demon but the Demon promises to not do anything to the kid until she becomes an adult and in the meantime she canonically grows attached and turns into a Spirit of Love and renounces fully possessing her dearreader 16h wait she does??? i usually kill the demon but now i kinda wanna do this reformedvillain 15h @dearreader yes, it's confirmed in a short story ^^

Do you remember the name of the short story? I've always felt sorry for Kitty, but not enough to let her posses Amalia.

reformedvillain 18h As for shifting public perception it would change depending on the strength of Andrastian Faith in the region. Rivain might just go 'yeah ??? We've been known ???? You mean that's news for everyone else ?????' Nevarra might be sort of chill about it since they also fuck a lot with Demons/Spirits but places like Orlais which is basically Chantry Central, and the Free Marches which are pretty devout in answer to Tevinter invasion, it might be more complicated, maybe depending on who the King/Queen is Ferelden might be more chill but still pretty cautious (Alistair being quite critical of the Chantry and the whole Circle thing and his possible friendship with a Surana/Amell HoF and said mage being the Arl of Amarantine and whether they were successful/appreciated by the people). So many possibilities for Religious Schisms regarding their treatment of Mages and once again, you brought this upon yourselves, baby. In general the Chantry sitting their hegemony by strict control and monetisation of Magic/Mages and this same treatment being the reason why they end up falling is hilarious to me

Yeah, there would be major differences in reaction depending on which region you are talking and how indoctrinated/faithful the population is.

Exactly that, Mages are scapegoat, bogeyman and fruitful resource all in one, forming a fundamental pillar of Chantry control.

jenn2d2 10h I think a lot of whether they can notice depends on the mages running the Harrowing. I think they have some control over that environment BUT... there's always a chance they're also corrupted. I love the idea that there's a lot of room there, and like so many other 'absolutes' from the Chantry, it's a lot less cut and dried.

We never do get a clear answer on how much control of the Fade section and target demon the Mage overseeing the Harrowing has. Like could the First Enchanter give easier demons to apprentices they favor and harder demons to troublemakers? We don't know.

It does seem pretty likely that they can't actually see what is going on inside the Fade with the apprentice mage. Just, no one talks about knowing what the apprentice did, only if they passed or failed and how long it took them. Which is a serious oversight in a ritual that every apprentice who becomes a Mage of the Circle must go through.

theunsinkablesappho 6h No one, not Irving, not Greagoir, not Alistair, ever notices that Wynne is an abomination. The only person who maybe sort of might know is the apprentice who saw her die. Petra, I think? And she is either uncertain about what she saw, in denial about what she saw, or hiding it to protect Wynne from possible consequences.

This. Pretty sure it is Petra, but I think she's a Mage not an Apprentice. I suspect it's a bit of a combination of all three. Like I don't think Petra thinks Wynne is possessed, and if she ever had the thought she's quickly banished it. I'd say that this also implies there is not any visual effect when a Mage is possessed. Or at least the very least not any that couldn't be passed off as healing magic or maybe combat magic.

Secondly continuing to address tags attached to the original post:

crimsonphantasmagoria 17h ago #Quite literally what happened with wynne and faith#Nobody would have known if she hadn’t said something more or less

Basically yeah. Like clearly no once notices once a Mage is walking around possessed unless they do something blatant obvious.

You'd think that in the actual Harrowing ritual, where for centuries they've been sending in apprentice mages to face and kill a demon or fail and be killed by the demon/possessed by the demon/killed by the Templars, they might have set up something to detect possessions? But no, I think they are just running on how the Mage's body looks to the Templars observing and that the end of the Harrowing is triggered by the death of the target demon.

Like. I'm not even sure they know other demons and spirits can and do gatecrash the Harrowing?

I don't think all Harrowings get gatecrashers and given the very secretive nature of the Harrowing I also don't think mages talk about how their Harrowing went often or in much detail. So circle mages might end up with wildly different experiences of the Harrowing and not know it.

despitethequn 15h ago #the Templars are just an excuse for the Chantry to abuse and scare mages#they're literally useless for anything else and get tossed aside once their lyrium addiction incapacitates them#and like any police force their 'training' is left...wanting

I've seen people suggest that the actual main purpose of the Templars is to give the Chantry a standing military in every Andrastian country. Templars aka trained and armoured knights in full armour, stationed in all cities and roaming the country side, answerable only to the Chantry.

The idea that mages need controlling and the Chantry is the only group who can correctly and properly control them... it gives the Chantry incredible power, socially, economically and militarily.

andrastesdirtysocks 12h ago #templars once again being shitty even at their one job#as well as in general #... tho now i think that's why they're trying to make harrowing as scary as possible#you don't know what's about to happen#how to deal with it#all you know is that you will die or be made tranquil if you fuck up#bit of a stressful situation for a teen

It's like the Templars have an 'official job' that is an excuse for their existence, protecting the mages in their care and people from mages, which they are the Actual Worst at. Then they have their real job of enforcing Chantry power by creating Tranquil to fund the Circles, making Chantry obedient Mages in the Circles and enforcing public fear of mages so people will turn to the Chantry and the Templars for safety.

ashillayn 11h ago #wonder how many non-possessed mages they killed after a harrowing

I wonder how many Mages they kill for taking too long. From memory it is Mouse who tells you the Templars will kill you if you take too long in the Fade, but, honestly? I believe him. Of course 'too long' is probably variable depending on which Circle you are in and your relationship with the Templars and First Enchanter.

But yes. The Harrowing is a perfect excuse to kill apprentices deliberately or just by over enthusiastic Templars deciding you came out too disorientated or traumatized or fighting or upset and therefor must be possessed!

mysticcowboygod 42m ago #i often think about how pretty much the entire templar order is fooled by a straight up envy demon in dai#like holy shit guys. that's your job?? like one of your only jobs???#THEY'RE SO BAD AT IT.

I know. I... (Sigh) Yeah. I know.

It's so pathetic it would be funny if it wasn't killing people and so instead it's appalling. I genuinely think mages would be better a policing and teaching themselves. If nothing else it would be hard to worse then the Templars at stopping possessions.

There is a part of me that looks at the Templars and the Circle of Magi and goes: was this system actually engineered by the Chantry to increase fear of Mages and Chantry control by deliberately provoking mages to possession and so justifying the presence of a Chantry controlled military presence across multiple nations?

Probably not, but it sure looks like that sometimes!

The Envy Demon fooling the Templars and the Seekers in Dragon Age: Inquisition. The Desire Demons enchanting Templars to fight for them in Dragon Age: Origins. The Templars caught up obliviously in the Sloth Demon's trap in Dragon Age: Origins. Cullen assaulting a Templar (recruit?) for some other reason (might have been suspected mage sympathy or for sneaking off, don't remember) and then being genuinely surprised when he turns out to be possessed and attacked Cullen in return in Dragon Age: II. There are just so, so many instances of Templar incompetence when it comes to dealing with demons and possession.

Thirdly addressing tags that followed on the the fourth part of this post:

shirayuki7 8h ago #love this post#im off to go write a possessed mage now!!!!#ty ty ty briarruler

Cool. Mouse and Amell or a different spirit/mage pair? Well, either way, have fun!

[briarruler]

First addressing the comments:

ivalane Feb 24 @reformedvillain hey I LOVE this, could you tell me which short story?

Also asking the question I'd really like to know the answer to. If anyone can think of a canon text which mentions the final fate of a Kitty possessed Amalia (from Dragon Age: Origins - The Stone Prisoner), drop the title and where to find it in the comments, tags or replies please.

vineee2000 Feb 27 I'd imagine the facts in the premise are true, but I disagree with the implication the templars NEED 100% accurate detection of subtle posessions for the Harrowing to work? The student is stressed and doesn't exactly know what is coming. The environment is fairly controlled, and the demon is something of a known quantity since the Circle facilitates it being there. Like, it is maybe possible for a really cunning demon to pull something off in these circumstances, but I feel it'd be more of a once in a lifetime occurence than an ongoing problem that breakes the procedure

I mean firstly, we see that Templars often fair incredibility badly against demons. And a demon with prep time? A demon who can recruit other mages to their side? A demon who can facilitate the possession of more Circle Mages and even Templars?

That's like a Templars worst nightmare. That's 'oh Maker we need to Annul the Circle and call reinforcements and we're all going to die'.

Once in a life time is far, far to frequent to be sustainable.

And as you say, the Harrowing is a controlled environment where the Templars have ordered the First Enchanter to invite a demon to possess an apprentice. Possession is a known risk and there should be no interruption or uncontrolled factors that make it harder to detect a possession. All of these. Centuries of doing this. Choosing the time, the place and the participants.

And yet? There is no indication that they have a reliable way to detect if a Harrowed mage walks out possessed or not. They are subjecting mages to a stressful situation designed to get them possessed without bothering to invent a ward or enchantment that would detect possession and simply watching the mage's unconscious body and reaction after they pass the Harrow to determine if they need to die or not.

Honestly? I don't consider the Harrowing practical in the first place. Ritual yes and maybe religious and definitely a tool of terror, but not a practical teaching method or exam.

Like what useful thing does it do. It doesn't prove you can resist demonic possession, firstly because it is clearly an unnatural situation and not how you would normally encounter a demon. It's only really useful if you encounter another Harrowing or very similar situation which is unlikely. Second the Templars clearly don't consider it proof, considering Harrowed mages are still stuck in the Tower.

Basically it's just another way of proving the Templars have all the control and a mage must dance to their whims or die. After all dealing with demons is 'bad' but hey, we are going to summon a demon and make you fight it to the death, succeed or die, so we Templars can order you mages to deal with demons, only as we like.

I guess the most teaching moment it provides is indoctrinating new Templars to distance themselves from and kill mages. Hard to be friends with someone you know you might be called up to murder.

In a lot of ways this less about the Harrow itself, then that the Templars can't even reliably detect possession in a situation where they are deliberately setting up a mage to be possessed and are actively watching the entire time.

And sure the Target Demon is known, the one you have to kill to complete your Harrowing, but some Mages also get gatecrashing Fade Spirits. The Mage Warden's Target Demon was a Rage Demon, but they also had a Demon of Sloth and a Spirit of Valor hanging out, plus whatever Mouse was, Pride Demon or some kind of spirit perceived as such.

magnetic-dragons Apr 21 As nice as this interpretation is, it's unfortunate that a mage's ability to "resist possession" is sometimes probably not the sole indicator of them passing their Harrowing. I agree with @vinee2000 the templars purposefully set the Mages up to fail (not just for the Harrowing, but in lots of other ways as well. It's a whole institutional designed to control and exploit mages, I mean they even use the Tranquil to fund the Circles so there is financial incentive for many to use the Rite liberally). While I do agree that the Templars as "anti-mage/abomination" forces is definitely vastly overstated, the Harrowing is DANGEROUS and several Templars will definitely exploit any excuse to reduce the Mage population within the Tower. Or maybe I misread this and that's what you meant? If so, very sorry.

I'd honestly interpreted what @vineee2000 said as 'the Harrowing works' which I really don't agree with. This post is mostly looking on the semi-positive side, I guess? But the same fact which would let demons walk out of there in a Mage's body is the same one that would have them slaughtering Mages who passed and came up fighting or panicking or confused.

Like, the most basic premise of this post is: I don't think the Templars can truly tell if a mage is possessed, they are just guessing and taking in obvious clues. Which could theoretically lead to a possessed mage walking away, but honestly is more likely to lead to a distressed or agitated mage who passed their Harrowing getting killed 'just in case'.

It's just, it is such a controlled situation, it's stupid that there is no indication they have a reliable way of telling.

...Which really almost comes back around so that you have to consider if this lack of ability to tell if a mage is possessed is actually an institutionally considered a positive. Another way for the Chantry, the Circle, the Templars to oppress and exploit mages, that there is no way to prove you are not possessed so the Templars have further justification for to culling mage freedoms and mage lives. If the Templars can't tell who is possessed, it justifies acting as if every mage is possessed.

Continuing now with tags attached to the first part of my post:

crowcoffin Feb 25 #i've always thought there are more spirits piggybacking around than people claim

Who's going to talk about being possessed? It's a death sentence. Basically only people with no survival instincts, nothing to lose or no ability to conceal it would flaunt it. And if you don't flaunt it. Who's going to notice? Certainly not the Templars.

thiefbird Feb 25 #my elf-mage warden got possessed by the pride demon mouse in my persona headcanon#shes mostly normal usually#they definitely did not detect it in her bc she and mouse hashed shit out

Who wouldn't want to be possessed by Mouse? Really I've certainly made attempts to have my mage character agree to a deal or otherwise get possessed. But the dialogue options just aren't there. Like either Mouse was not angling for a possession, which says interesting things about them, or they should have included a non-standard game over where you get possessed.

...Maybe I should name a Mage Warden Mouse sometime and do a replay in the role of 'Warden (Demon) Mage (Mouse) Amell' who is definitely a normal mage and not secretly a demon.

vulvalini Feb 25 #YAAAAAAAAS I LOVE IT#tell me more about templar incompetence#lying on my bed kicking my feet :D

The rest of this post is basically an ongoing rant about Templar incompetence. Or well, incompetence at protecting people from demons, they are very good at threatening people, making mages seem scary and providing the Chantry with a standing army stationed across multiple nations.

dreamingofthewild Feb 25 #I love incompetent templars#But also the idea of this only being able to happen with a mage who is smart calm and able to convince the spirit/ demon to work with them#So I don't think it would be incredibly common but it's more common than everyone thinks#Like you would have to not give into fear rage or any strong emotion which takes a lot of willpower

Yeah. It didn't strike me has very likely to happen. But it does seem like something that could happen and no-one seems to consider it. It would take a very strange Mage-Fade Spirit/Demon pair to both consider it as a viable option and then to successfully pull it off.

What might be more common is demons using the Harrowing to suss mages out and then contacting them in their dreams later. After all 'I helped through your Harrowing while those Templars stood over your defenseless body with drawn blades' and 'well if the Chantry sanctions demon summoning for the Harrowing, then clearly not all dealing with demons is bad' are somewhat persuasive arguments.

veshta Feb 26 #Wynne literally got possessed and no one noticed#sure they were busy but it's not like anyone was eager to check#even with all the abomination scare#DAO my beloved and your unreliable narrator storytelling 😌 You'll always be Number One to me!

Exactly. Like no-one checks before they authorize her to leave the tower that was just cleared of demons? No-one? Seriously?

Like. Setting aside gross incompetence for the moment. This really does imply that they don't have any method of checking. Nothing. Zilch. If you aren't given away by body mutations or behavioral changes, they have no way of detecting possessions.

perinope Feb 27 #yeah there's that one of cole's visions about vivienne's harrowing where he says she smiles to show that it's still her#so like realistically yeah#you'd just need to be chipper to not alert the templars

By that metric demons might have a better chance then mages.

Mage: just been flung into an incredibility stressful fight for their life and killed a demon only to be face to face with those Templars who forced them into this and threatened to kill them (again).

Demon: successfully possessed a mage and gained access to the mortal world, having a grand time, face to face with some Templars who they could probably successfully kill if they tried.

Who do you think feels more like smiling in this situation?

lynx-1512 Feb 27 #Sure that's when superstitions and witchhunts come in#Like calling a mage abomination bc she's having a baby or a mage receiving letters from the outside

Not the Harrowing specifically (I'm sure the Templars think that any Harrowed Mage who they pass and is is later revealed to be possessed, oh so righteously they believe got possessed after they were Harrowed not during), but that they can't detect possession in general? Yeah.

I mean, both of those activities are borderline illegal for Mages anyway.

It seems to depend on the Circle and the status of the Mage, but sometimes Circle Mages can receive occasional letters from outside the Circle and sometimes a mage discovered with smuggled letters from their family will be made Tranquil and the Templar smuggling the letters for them kicked out of the Order.

Don't remember if Mages are specifically punished for getting pregnant, but having your newborn ripped from your arms and shoved into a Chantry orphanage, well that's nasty enough on it's own. I definitely could see mood swings or diet changes resulting in an accusation of possession that may or may not be cleared up by the mage being revealed to be pregnant. (Wince) Dealing with postpartum depression in the Circle sounds like an actual nightmare.

danielnelsen Mar 1 #still trying to decide if alim lets mouse possess him in his harrowing#but if he does…yeah. like they literally don’t notice because he’s calm

What reasons do Alim have to let Mouse possess him? What are the benefits to him? What does he consider the risks? Cause honestly, I like Mouse, I'd like to continue hanging out with Mouse, but I'm not willing to die or give up control of my body for Mouse.

And honestly... what's Mouse getting out of it, because you can't actually get possessed in canon, which really makes me wonder if Mouse actually wants to possess you.

They could always agree to a post Harrowing meet up?

...Which may or may not happen depending on if you think the Mage Warden was 'dreaming' during that time they spend unconscious post Harrowing and if not, then if Mouse can track down the Mage Warden once they have left the Tower with Duncan.

Next with tags attached to the second part of my post:

spiritbladed Feb 25 #100% those bitches could NOT do their job

Genuinely, I am increasingly inclined towards the idea that a Templar's job isn't to protect people from mages or demons. It's to threaten people with mages and demons, to terrorize mages so they can't function in society and to provide the Chantry with a standing military in every nation.

voxaris Feb 25 #*looks at my amell* hm.

Do it. Do it. I chant quietly, far too invested in other people having mage characters with Fade Spirit friends.

ferelden-cowboy Feb 27 #yeah templars dont know shit

The worst. They've had centuries to collect knowledge and skills, yet somehow they just. Haven't.

ladyhighever Mar 27 #yessss this is how emmaera ends up with her friend valor :)#not quite allowing them to possess her but :) valor is there for the hard things#emmaera surana

Every couple of years a mage accidentally reinvents being a Spirit Healer/Spirit Warrior/Necromancer, I say only half joking.

[briarruler]

I thought that people had just started Liking posts more then Reblogging (which is sad and kind of annoying and means I'm less likely to randomly scroll through the blog of someone who left neat tags or comments on one of my posts), but actually I suspect some of my normal fandom interactions have vanished into communities.

(Although I'm reasonably sure that the Liking and not Reblogging thing is an actual and real change and problem that has happened - I've seen other people remarking on it too.)

Effort and possible socialization vs validation and potential Yes And reblogs. Decisions. Decisions.

(Or maybe I've just been less active on Tumblr lately and the recent posts I have made happen to be some of my less interesting ones.)

Either way. I'll join one Community and see if I like it.

[briarruler]

perilousraven Well that rings completely true. It’s quite disheartening how little meta gets spread around with how few people reblog these days. I have my own problems with communities (this is a sideblog, which cannot join communities on its own, and my fandoms from the main one do Not mix), but have you noticed communities being more active in that regard since you said you’d try them out?

I do think there were some extra reblogging and commenting on posts I reblogged into the community but overall I didn't like it.

I ended up muting the community a few days after joining. Just too many notifications and no way of only getting alerts for interactions with my posts. I joined a fairly large community, which is probably part of why I didn't like it.

You only seem to be able to view community comments and replies on your posts from within the Community? Both for your posts that you reblogged in and posts that you created that someone else reblogged in.

And there doesn't seem to be an in-Community search function? If you find tags on a post you can click on them to search via tag, but otherwise you just have to scroll past every posts.

I want to know if my posts have previously been posted here with new reblogs or replies I haven't read! And I can't scroll through every post in the community to check, it's too big!

[briarruler]

I was about to un-join the community I was i but while searching for the 'Leave' button (curse not knowing what exactly I was looking for and it being semi-hidden) I discover that there is now a search function for the Community. So I might play around with that at bit and see if it makes it easier to find the posts I want.

...Okay so I I think the search function lets you type in tags to search. That's good. It might also let you search via words in the post, which is also good. But it doesn't let me do what I really want, which is search via author/blog/poster.

Let me see if people have been reblogging with comments! I want to know what people think.

[briarruler]

The trick to starting a Blue Dragon New Game Plus play-through is Accessories. They do come back with you. They are not Equipped. You need to put them on before Shu faces the Land Shark. Otherwise your Shu will simply die.

[briarruler]

AU: where Danny refuses to set foot in the Nasty Burger post The Ultimate Enemy. So the trio have to find a different fast food hangout.