Briar Ruler

This is my main Tumblr blog. My non-writing just reblogging blog is briarrulerreblogging https://www.tumblr.com/briarrulerreblogging I am on AO3 as Briar_Ruler https://archiveofourown.org/users/Briar_Ruler I don't currently have a pinned post, I'll remake one at somepoint.

[briarruler]

AU: where Danny refuses to set foot in the Nasty Burger post The Ultimate Enemy. So the trio have to find a different fast food hangout.

[briarruler]

Idea: Danny can give other people ghost powers. He just needs to:

Be in ghost-form

touching the target human

run his transformation rings over them

and concentrate very hard on giving them ghost powers.

This will imbue them will ghostly power. Dealer's choice if this is permanent or temporary and what other changes and side effects it may involve.

[briarruler]

Could the merge side of the Fenton Ghost Catcher be used to create a halfa? Just coat a human in ectoplasm and send them through.

[autisticaboutisekai]

Good question good question.

Might I add, what was the intended use of the merge function? Like why would they add that? It seems incredibly counterproductive to everything they stand for.

[jessyspectre]

Perhaps they meant to merge ectoplasm with physical objects so that they could properly test the separation function and thought that having one device with both functions would be more convenient?

[briarruler]

I have also wondered why they created the merge function in the first place. My vague thoughts about it had been something along the line of it being a necessary part of the separation function, like some required technological or supernatural counterbalance or exhaust. But the idea of the Fentons creating a two in one device for testing purposes seems more plausible.

catflowerqueen Jan 19, 2023 I feel like that might just create an overshadowing situation or something. Or like what happened to the kids in Spectra's second episode when she took over the hospital.

I don't think it would create Overshadowing like situation unless you actually forced a ghost and human through at the same time. (Wince.) I do not know what would happen then, but I cannot imagine any good outcomes.

Now I can very much imagine something like Spectra's 'ghost powers illness' or Desiree's wish-imprint-ghosts as the outcome. (Distinguishing these from Overshadowing in the sense that the mosquitoes didn't seem to influence behaviour and the ghosts created by Desiree seemed to grow from the wisher as highly exaggerated aspects of themselves.)

From memory Desiree and Spectra both do say, in Want You Want and Doctor's Disorders respectively, things to the effect that getting 'ghost powers' in a human body is very bad for the health of the human long term. Although those are both instances were the ectoplasm being injected into the human already belongs to another ghost.

On the other hand neither using the Amulet of Aragon or Valerie's Technus empowered integration with her suit seems to be inherently harmful for the host. But in both of those the ectoplasm is acting through a medium that might be focusing it or filter it or anchoring it in someway that makes it more compatible.

...All else aside if you were trying this you'd want to be real sure it's genuine high grade purified ectoplasm. (Grimaces and gestures at Vlad.) No one wants Ecto-Acne.

Just to be safe, maybe go through straight after a decontamination shower. And be careful about what you are think and feeling, high chance this could create a ghost and if it does your exact intentions on using the Fenton Dream Catcher may end up to be preserved forever in the form of that ghost.

[briarruler]

AU where in the aftermath of the Accident Jazz starts to suspect that Danny died and was re-animated in the lab, as something akin to their previous experience with ecto contaminated food, like the murderous Fenton Christmas Turkey she fought when they were kids.

[briarruler]

I love the implication in Control Freaks that Danny sometimes just turns up to Sam's house at some godforsaken hour of the morning.

Why I think this is implied:

Danny walks into the house while the Manson family are having breakfast together.

No one seems surprised at Danny walking through the front door.

Casper High School starts at 7:30.

Sam had first period classes that day.

So if we generously assume that Casper High is very close by I might put his entrance at around 7:15, more likely I would say 7:00 to 6:30.

[briarruler]

ladyblackshipper1987 Jun 9, 2022 Love this! *shares in both the Danny Phantom discord servers I’m in*

Were there results of this? If you remember (being that it's taken me several years to follow up).

thisisindeedausername Jun 25, 2022 #thats a pretty funny concept#and Mr and Ms Manson cant exactly do anything about it because hospitality

Does Midwestern hospitality cover your daughter's friends wandering into your house during breakfast?

...Had a moment of complicated thought about how Danny is getting in. But I believe (without re-watching the episode to make sure) that he actually enters through the kitchen-garden door, and it's not really a stretch that they leave that unlocked. At least early in the morning, when they are all in the kitchen and Sam might be going in and out doing things like checking her plants.

So no need for keys or ghost powers. Just Danny knowing a side entrance and being familiar enough with Sam's habits to know what time he can likely catch her having breakfast.

[briarruler]

Ghost King Danny AU where instead of Danny wearing the King's Artefacts, it is the other two members of the trio who do so: Tucker with the Crown of Fire and Sam with the Ring of Rage.

[space-librarian]

Or what about vice-versa? They hold the artifacts to keep Danny from being potentially overwhelmed by them, but each one also represents a personal weakness of theirs, so they swap.

Sam we know has lots of righteous (and self-righteous) rage within her, the Ring of Rage would only amplify that. In some fanon Tucker has long-term effects from the King Tuck incident (like being arrogant and commanding), the Crown might make that worse. But if they trade, the artifacts can't prey on their respective flaws

(Am I treating the artifacts like the One Ring a little bit? Yep, it's super interesting that way and lends an automatic reason why Sam and Tucker have the artifacts instead of Danny)

[briarruler]

That would be the sensible approach. Team Phantom has not gone for sensible, they've gone for give-me-cool-powers!

(In all seriousness I did basically look at the Crown and the Ring, look at the trio and go: you know what would be fun? Giving Sam and Tucker power ups that also play into their flaws.)

Thoughts I had about how this might work.

One: They are actively using their Royal Artifact to empower themselves either directly or through another object.

It's probably through another object, directly channeling ghostly power through your own body seems like a bad idea.

I have some leanings towards them getting the Amulet of Aragon and the Scarab Sceptre back but I'm not sure that either of those would need an outside power source.

So instead they could be charging some sort of ecto powered suits. Probably like the Huntress Suit or Fenton Peeler, full body suits with ecto-blasts, shields, flight, possibly also invisibility and intangibility.

Or charging some form of magic that Sam and Tucker have hashed together. Maybe teleportation or mind control or animation of statues/plants/skeletons.

Or you know an unholy combination of ghost hunting technology and actual magic all powered by these extremely powerful ghostly artifacts.

Alternate they don't 'charge' anything but wearing the artifact that resonates with them prevents them from being Overshadowed and possibly protects them from some other ghosts powers.

Two: The Royal Artifacts are aware and a tendency to get 'lost' if they don't vibe with their current holder.

Danny won them, so they'd be fine with him wearing them.

Sam and Tucker did not win them, they were entrusted with them by Danny. That they were willing given by the rightful holder and are being worn by people close to him, both physically and emotionally, allows some leeway.

It doesn't allow so much leeway that the Crown and the Ring aren't picky about which human gets to keep them.

Three: They've each 'merged' with their Royal Artifact to a degree. Sam is Phantom's Ring of Rage and Tucker is Phantom's Crown of Fire.

This is both more and less practical then wearing the actual artifacts.

Upside, Danny is unswayed by any mood influence the artifacts have on their wearer.

Downside, Sam and Tucker are experiencing these influences instead.

Upside, each of them is only being influenced by a single artifact, not both.

Side, these are ghostly artifacts, they probably don't have as much influence on a human.

Upside, it doesn't matter how close or far the Artifacts are from Phantom, he will still get the power boost as long as his friends are still aligned with him.

Upside, unaligning is a pretty conscious choice, a small argument or disagreement isn't going to do it and neither is being knocked out.

Side, they can probably provide temporary power boosts to other ghosts if they are nearby, allied and all agree they want to help?

Downside, it is likely to make them even bigger targets.

Side, they might develop in-group telepathy from the link between the artifacts?

Or some combination of all three ideas.

Have to admit that seeing tags like this one from @moipale:

moipale Nov 24, 2022 #INSPIRATION #OP YOU DONT KNOW WHAT YOUVE AWAKENED IN ME.

Make me deeply curious.

bleuyellow93 Nov 24, 2022 Tucker already has a ghost artifact the staff from the king tuck episode so Danny gets to keep the crown

briarruler Nov 24, 2022

Original Poster

@bleuyellow93 no, no, we can't exclude Tucker like that. They're a trio. Danny trusts them both. So if Tucker is keeping the Scarab Scepter then Sam's power up is getting Aragon's Amulet.

[briarruler]

Draft of a dates given in show-canon canon.

Edit: Posted this early by accident, so it is only contains information from some episodes in season one, will post a completer version at somepoint once I've finished watching Danny Phantom.

So canon's timeline doesn't actually make sense but here it is anyway.

Celebration of "Spirit Week Centennial: 100 years of Casper High Spirit" - My Brother's Keeper.

The Casper High Lunch Menu 'has been the same for fifty years' - Mystery Meat.

Vlad's Proto Portal Accident in Collage - Bitter Reunions.

Vlad has had powers 'for twenty years' - Bitter Reunions.

20th Collage Reunion, University of Wisconsin - Bitter Reunions.

Vlad spent 'years in hospital' with Ecto-Acne - Bitter Reunions.

May 9th Jack and Maddie's Wedding Anniversary - Prisoners of Love.

18th Year in a row that Jack has forgotten their wedding Anniversary - Prisoners of Love.

10th Anniversary of Aunt Alica's Divorce - Prisoners of Love.

Aunt Alica has been single for 10 years - Prisoners of Love.

Aunt Alica has been out in Spittoon for nearly a decade - Prisoners of Love.

It's been a month since Danny's Portal Accident - Mystery Meat.

So this would be mostly uselessness for fanfic.

[briarruler]

I really should get around to posting the finished version of this. It's mostly complete, just needs some editing. (I swear, the Danny Phantom timeline is a nightmare to try an work out.)

sweaterweathercub Mar 4, 2022 Not necessarily. This means Lunch Lady and Poindexter were contemporaries, or at least very close to contemporary. Casper would have been celebrating its semi-centennial when the Lunch Lady established her menu, and that Sidney would have been gearing up for it with his classmates. 20 years makes sense because that gives us a two year window for Jack to court Maddy, and a three or four year window for Jazz to be born. It also means that Jazz and Danny possibly remember what Aunt Alicia was like before the divorce— Jazz more than Danny, and they probably both remember her ex.

briarruler Mar 4, 2022

Original Poster

thanks @sweaterweathercub. I also actually posted this by accident, it was in my queue because it's easier to edit things there while switching between screens but I forgot to transfer it back to drafts when I was done watching Danny Phantom episodes for the night.

But I'll leave it up because I liked your replies. Guess I can also see if other people like the idea of what I was working on too.

[briarruler]

Is it likely that a half-ghost Sam would end up wanted for a variety of property crimes that she deliberately and willingly committed?

Because canonically Sam sometimes tries to persuade Danny to use his ghost-powers for her causes and occasionally commits dangerous and illegal actions for her beliefs.

So, if Sam was a Half-Ghost, with ghost-powers and a ghostly-persona that can't easily be traced back to her, do we think she would take it upon herself to do direction action activism in a presumably public manner?

[briarruler]

rosy-dolly May 26, 2022 I am actually gonna say nah! While Sam is obviously not against causing an uproar (school lunch and frogs incident), she seems to dislike violence, which was apparent when she disapproved of Danny using his powers against Dash. However, imo I don't think she'd have qualms against property damage so if that's into consideration then maybe so lol

briarruler May 26, 2022

Original Poster

I mostly meant violent as in destruction of property (lots and lots of property destruction), so I might edit that now, but anyway thank you contributing @rosy-dolly.

I did end up making that small wording edit for clarity.

[briarruler]

Have we ever seen the Fenton Thermos not capture a ghost that has been hit by its beam?

Seriously, can anyone name a single ghost that has managed to avoid entering the Fenton Thermos once that sucking blue beam alights on them? Because off the top of my head I can't and now I'm wondering if the only way for a ghost to avoid being sucked into the Fenton Thermos is to dodge.

[capricedhusara]

To be fair, we've never seen it hit a particularly powerful ghost besides Dan (and we know it works on Danny after he got stronger than Dan was as a halfa, later on, so I don't think Dan became immune after after Phantom merged with Plasmius).

For all we know, Pariah Dark, Clockwork, Pandora, the Observants, Nocturne at peak power, and any ghost at a similar level could just shrug it off.

[briarruler]

Okay, so you're saying we've never seen it fail to work, but that we also haven't seen it used on really powerful ghosts, at least not those who are also at their full strength. Which, fair enough, it's not the answer I lean towards, but really powerful ghosts being capable of breaking out of the Thermos beam before it pulls them in is plausible.

Maybe they would also get better a breaking the beam with practice, so it's not a good idea to give them to opportunity to try? Like, it's three parts being powerful enough that breaking the beam is possible, and one part reacting fast and skillfully enough to do so before it suck you in?

madametamma Jun 6, 2022 I like that. We don't have a lot of consistency for what ghosts can DO or even for what ghosts ARE, (the souls of dead beings, spirits born on another plane of existence, monsters, etc.) But we do have a consistancy of what weapons have an effect on them. Which I think we need if we're going to write stories about them that aren't solved via deus ex machina We have seen ghosts like dark Danny come close to breaking out of the Fenton Thermos. So maybe if the ghost is strong enough, they may not be able to avoid getting sucked in, but they can break out given time once put in there.

Yes! This is what I lean towards. I like the idea that every ghosts gets sucked in, that's inescapable, but if you try and contain something too powerful, they just immediately break out. Ghosts can't stop themselves from being dragged into the Fenton Thermos, but they sure can bust out.

It gives a good justification for Danny not just solving all his problems via sneak attack (besides from just not thinking of it), he needs to fight his enemies first, so there is less chance of them breaking the Thermos.

It may also be a reason for Danny constantly releases ghosts back into the Ghost Zone, instead of leaving them in a Thermos. Can't leave them in there too long because they might recover and start bashing on any weak points in the Thermos walls, slowly breaking their way out.

[briarruler]

What exactly was Jazz expecting to happen when she tried to hit Danny with the Fenton Ghost Peeler in The Ultimate Enemy?

And what would have happened if instead of hitting Plasmius Phantom disguised as Danny, she had actually hit Danny?

[briarruler]

madametamma Apr 26, 2023 I think the Fenton Ghost peeler is the powerful piece of her parents tech that she feels most adept at using. I'm not sure she, herself knew what would happen, just that she knew evil Danny was trouble and she was gonna need some serious fire power.

Yeah, embarrassingly I'd actually managed to misremember her confronting Danny and her going to fight Plasmius Phantom as closer to one event despite having last watched The Ultimate Enemy within, like a year, of making this post. It caused a short period of me looking at Jazz with the appalled horror of 'what was she thinking'.

(Until I looked back over the transcript and went, 'oh, yeah, first confrontation with Danny she revealed she knew about him being Phantom and threatened to reveal it. Which Plasmius Phantom responded to by willing revealing himself. And then later she attacks at the Nasty Burger with the Fenton Peeler.)

Which was a real relief to be able to put aside the implications of Jazz being will to use the Fenton Peeler on her brother and go back to considering her a good sibling. Still, it did leave me curious: what would happen if the Fenton Peeler was used on the real Danny?

[briarruler]

Has anyone done an AU where the Portal Accident turns the entire trio into ghosts?

I've seen Halfa Trio AUs where they all become Half-Ghosts together and Full-Ghost Danny AUs where the Accident turns Danny into a full-ghost instead of a half-ghost but I don't think I've seen the two ideas combined?

[cat-in-a-fedora]

So, the portal just completely blows up, then? Or at least the creation causes an explosion?

[briarruler2]

Actually I thinking that all them of them were inside the Portal (probably in their normal clothing) when it activated and it just happens that instead of turning them into half-ghosts, they die, but also return as ghosts.

Was more focused on the 'and then they were ghosts' part instead of the 'and this is why they because ghosts instead of various other things happening' part.

But yeah, you could go with an explosion. That would certainly be dramatic and explain why they were dead, along with being hard to cover up.

[cat-in-a-fedora]

Actually, come to think of it, nobody else was there. Or rather, everyone who was there is now dead. Jack and Maddie don’t really actively pay attention to anything outside of their work. They wouldn’t have known Sam and Tuck were even over, and their “disappearances” were all at the same time, therefore connected. Would anyone even know if/how they died? I mean, once people realize ghost are around and recognize the trio, people would know they died, but still.

Jack and Maddie would probably assume another ghost was at fault, especially since the trio are fighting other ghosts. How would they react when they find out they killed three kids. God, how would Jazz react.

[briarruler]

Circling back to this earlier tag from your first reblog:

#in this au Danny and Tucker find out Sam was rich when her family’s lawyers come to sue Jack and Maddie

Absolutely. You are so correct @cat-in-a-fedora. If it was public knowledge that the Fenton's Portal killed the trio that would be one hundred percent how they found out Sam was rich.

I've been more considering the concealed ghosts side of things but the idea of an extremely public death and ghostifiction has fun potential.

A route for this going even more wildly AU which I hadn't paused to consider when I was originally replying to your first reblog: if the Portal exploded and caused the trio's deaths... then there is no Fenton Ghost Portal.

And potentially no ghost attacks.

Now I actually suspect that a number of ghosts were already on Earth pre the creation of the Fenton Portal. Desiree and Spectra, predominately. Probably Circus Gothica. Plus who knows what effects the explosion of an activating artificial ghost portal would have. Maybe natural portals suddenly become really common in Amity Park.

It would be very easy to still have other ghosts in the story, arriving through natural portals, or portal making powers, or from elsewhere on Earth or via Vlad still creating his own portal. But! If you didn't want other ghosts around. Then it would be so easy to have a story about the humans of Amity Park having to come to terms with three local teenagers dying in an explosion and becoming ghosts. No big powered fights, no extra-dimensional threats, just three kids who used to be human and are now proving the existence of ghost and Amity Park's various reactions to that.

Alternatively a lesser number of ghost attacks happen but there is no portal to the ghost zone to shove the losing ghost through. They can't just capture and release, they actually have to hold the ghosts prisoner or negotiate with them to stop attacking. So less individual ghosts, but more follow up needed for each one.

Plus a big enough explosion might completely vaporize their bodies or render them into enough little pieces that they don't have noticeable corpses. At that point, well, there are probably going to be a bunch of people who are going to be more comfortable with miraculously surviving teenagers with superpowers then teen-aged ghosts. Possibly including some of the trio's parents.

Also the entire Fenton House may well go up if you went full on with the Portal explosion. The whole block even, with more fatalities only being avoid by lucky timing of no one else having been home. Or even other people dying but only the trio getting the right ecto exposure to become ghosts.

Or if you want the trio to have died in a portal activation related explosion but still have the Fenton Ghost Portal functioning you could have an expulsion of ectoplasm from the portal (either a kawoosh or bouncing blast of ecto) that happened to react badly with something in the lab and cause a deadly but not massive explosion.

A smaller explosion, one that leaves the lab mostly intact, is going to make it much more obvious what killed the trio and that they are ghost-dead, not lab gained super-powered.

Moving on to your most recent reblog and accompanying tag:

#I just read a fox where Jazz was willing to commit arson so I’m imagining she would go ballistic

This tag is very on point. Jazz would not be okay with her parent's unsafe lab practices killing her little brother. Especially if they doubled down on ghosts being responsible. Presuming she doesn't buy into the 'all ghosts are evil', 'false imprints of human conscious', etc, or break down from guilt, feelings of responsibly, etc, or try to lay to rest or otherwise reject ghost Danny, then I imagine she's incredibility overprotective.

If anyone so much as looks at her brother and his friends wrong she has a scathing lecture ready. You make a single move towards anti-ghost weapons or otherwise indicate you're going to harm them? Incredible violence. If she has to beat this world into being safe for her brother, she will, and her parents are no exception. She love them, but that doesn't mean she forgives them and she most certainly doesn't forget.

Really Jazz is having a very bad time. Not sure which would be worse, knowing for sure they accidentally died in her parent's lab, or having them going mysteriously missing and later turning up as ghosts. Probably the later? Because of the days or weeks of uncertainty and worry and fear, then the discovery of them as ghosts, the suspicions about how they died building until it was confirmed or left to wonder if it was something worse, something slower, or more painful or more deliberate.

Honestly, everyone is having a bad time in this universe.

If the trio just 'disappeared' and later turned up as ghosts… yeah I can absolutely see Jack and Maddie believing that a ghost killed them. Even if they died in a lab explosion that left dead bodies behind, if it looks at all like it could feasibly have been caused by a ghost's ectoblasts…

What do you blame for you son's death? Your lab, your equipment, your experiments, your portal, your life's work? Or one of those evil, murderous, no good ghosts that come through the portal and cruelly choose to kill the first humans it saw. (Don't think about how it could only be here because of your portal.)

I was just about to say I don't think Jack and Maddie would hunt the trio in this AU, but, actually, I could see how it could happen? If they doubled down on their research being meaningful, vital and right. If they blamed ghosts for their son's death. If they viewed the ghost wearing his face and voice and memories as nothing but a perversion, a twisted fake, cruelly preying on their love.

I could see it but mostly I'd lean more towards them be to broken by losing their son and to horribly guilty to consider raising a weapon against his ghost. Perhaps also clingy and grateful for his continued presence. Although I could also see them having problems being around him, avoiding him and ignoring him because of the guilt, the regret, especially if he looks either particularly ghostly or particularly human.

(Also if they hunt Ghost Danny, Jazz would actually kill them. Or team up with the Mansons to get them immediately arrested and sent to jail forever.)

[briarruler]

Has anyone done an AU where the Portal Accident turns the entire trio into ghosts?

I've seen Halfa Trio AUs where they all become Half-Ghosts together and Full-Ghost Danny AUs where the Accident turns Danny into a full-ghost instead of a half-ghost but I don't think I've seen the two ideas combined?

[cat-in-a-fedora]

So, the portal just completely blows up, then? Or at least the creation causes an explosion?

[briarruler]

Actually I was thinking that all them of them were inside the Portal (probably in their normal clothing) when it activated and it just happens that instead of turning them into half-ghosts, they die, but also return as ghosts.

Was more focused on the 'and then they were ghosts' part instead of the 'and this is why they because ghosts instead of various other things happening' part.

But yeah, you could go with an explosion. That would certainly be dramatic and explain why they were dead, along with being hard to cover up.

[briarruler]

Danny Phantom Crossover Supernatural: Amity Park used to have the usual number of demons. It doesn't have any now. Turns out ghosts can remove demons from their human hosts the same way they remove Overshadowing ghosts.

[timeladyjamie]

It’s honestly so heart-breaking what happened to the original Cole:

At age 12, he was a newly-discovered mage. His father killed his mother for being ‘evil’ aka having a knack for magic that Cole just discovers he has too and he tries to do the same to Cole.

He accidentally killed his little sister, Bunny, while trying to protect her because of not learning how to control his powers. 

He killed his father with a dagger which originally belonged to his mother and was the only thing he had left of her.

He was then arrested by Templars who beat him up, locked him away and forgot about him. He starved to death, and he would have been all alone except for the Spirit of Compassion he befriended, who tried to help him. 

His last words were “Thank You” to the Spirit of Compassion before passing away.

And this all happened because of Templar filled out the paperwork incorrectly, causing them to erase all proof of their mistake and act like he was never even here. 

The Spirit of Compassion felt unable to help him, and instead, became him and committed it’s existence to helping those in need. I mean…I honestly can’t. I’m a crying mess. 

I freakin love Original Cole and Spirit of Compassion Cole so DAMN MUCH!

[briarruler]

(Thoughtful head tilt.) I interpreted his killing of his sister as he accidentally smothered her while trying to keep her quiet. Nothing to do with magic. Just his hands.

And perhaps that is part of his tragedy. That people feared and loathed his magic. That he wanted to be normal. But the people he killed, one on accident and one on purpose, neither of them died by magic.

Cole and his mother both died because they had magic. But they didn't die because of the magic. They died because they lived in a society that created people and systems that killed them for being born mages.

Cole killed his father with a knife. But he didn't die for that. He died for being a mage. It didn't matter if he'd never hurt anyone with his magic.

Cole was born a mage and in the eyes of (society, the Templars, his father, himself) that was enough to condemn him. That was enough for him to be locked away and for his death to go unpunished.

And if his suffering hadn't drawn a Spirit of Compassion no one would have known. His life and death would have both been erased. He would have been just another mage killed by the Circle, by the Templars, illegally but unremarked upon, because no one in power cared that some poor young mage died a lingering, lonely death in their care.

[gayboss-too-close-to-the-sun]

yeah it's mean but you've got to admire the dedication crocodile has. he literally makes sure to send a sandstorm to yuba every single day. how close does he have to be? does he have a little hideout a mile or two away and he has to jog over once a day and whoosh sand around just to fuck with one (1) hopeful old man? crocodile you're so goofy i love you and your silly face

[briarruler]

Honestly I was a little worried he could control the weather across all of Arabasta or do very easy quick travel. But no. Turns out he just knows the prevailing winds and can seed the Yuba sandstorm from Rainbase. Which, still terrifying, but not quite as bad.

Village planning advice: stay upwind of Crocodile's home base or perish.

[dr-mothman-deactivated20250331]

Thinking Abt ghost king au, but it's actually Ghost KingS Au. Both Vlad and Danny have the throne and need eachother's approval to make decisions.

[briarruler]

So really, it's not much different from having a sealed and sleeping king.

[briarruler]

You know… I'm not actually convinced that the Templars would always notice if you got possessed during your Harrowing?

Like they don't have the best track record for noticing that people are possessed? Sure if you're glowing, speaking in double voice or visibly mutated they notice. But if you look normal and act normal, they don't.

To all appearances Templars don't have have any special ability to detect possession. Special ability to provoke spirit/demon flare up possibly yes, but that is by being a traumatizing, violent, threatening, abusive and all round a terrible person that their victim knows can and will murder them.

'Abominations' (for lack of a better word) seem to have some degree of adjustment period, but it isn't always extreme and seems to act up mostly in response to strong negative surprises.

A patient, calm level headed spirit/mage pair who entered into the possession willing and in full anticipation of how they would need to Not React to the Templars. Or a very skillful demon who managed to take possession of a mage very smooth in full knowledge of the situation they would be getting into. These seem like instance were a Mage could walk away from their Harrowing possessed without the Templars having a clue.

[briarruler]

Delightful by the quick response

@imissorzammar 3h ago #lmao yep probably gigkfkfkdkdkd

and general agreement

@iovaras 2h ago #i cannot emphasize how hilarious it is that wynne got possessed while surrounded by other mages and no one noticed. #like different scenario for sure bc there was a fight going on and they arent templars#but it feels relevant

in the tags

@dick-hardboiled 2h ago #Looks at wynne

Wynne is a very relevant example in the context of Circles failing to notice possessions.

I did have a moment were I wondered if maybe the First Enchanter as the very experienced and lone mage overseeing the Harrowing might notice… then went hmm no, probably not.

(I suspect mages might have a slight advantage over Templars, in that I remember scenes of them showing some sensitivity to beings moving across the veil, but well first you would have to notice it happening, second you would have to recognize what just happened and third you have to be both sure enough in your suspicion of the possession and willing to report to the Templars that you sensed someone getting possessed.)

So Wynne.

Her not being noticed right away makes a fair amount of sense. She gets possessed in the middle of battle and she and all the other nearby mages are fighting for their lives. It is also a battle against demons and demon possessed mages, if there is some sort of magic pulse or shift when a spirit crosses the veil or possesses someone it's very like to be put down to another demon popping up. She was also just heavily injured and a spirit healer, if a nearby mage felt a spirit suddenly become particularly close I think their first thought would be more 'emergency spirit healing' then 'possession' especially when Wynne doesn't turn around and start attacking them.

So her being overlooked while the tower is overrun with abominations, demons, stray blood mages and several enchanted Templars makes sense. It's much more funny that the Templar just let her walk out of the Circle they almost Annulled for being overrun by blood mages turned demon possessed abominations. Like that's a total fail. There isn't even any indication that they try to check her for possession, but they should have been on high alert for it.

@ikarons 1h ago #i have been saying this the whole time #i think there are a lot more possessed mages than the chantry knows about! just in the circle! #like… a) WILL the templars notice. if you get possessed willingly during the harrowing by a spirit who doesn’t immediately explode you . no #but also b) even if you don’t get possessed At Your Harrowing… #i think the harrowing Introduces the idea in a really close up intimate way #like you’re shoved directly into the fade with no warning specifically to test you against spirits/demons #As The Warden we have successful interactions with a few! #if you meet a spirit of valour during your harrowing who won’t possess you bc it has no interest in the material world#but is kind and helpful and wishes you the best #what better way to plant that seed in your head.#but also yeah like. the harrowing is the perfect time to get it done also. hello #i think it is a lot more common than we’re shown #i also think spirit healers are Unusually commonly possessed lol#not bc it’s a requirement (i don’t think it is) but bc they are kind of predisposed to it by the nature of their work#and the experiences it gives them wrt spirits

I agree with you on all points.

The Chantry is only going to know about possessions that go wrong, possessions that get discovered. But we've seen several times that possessed people can look and act perfectly normal right up until something stresses them so badly that their spirit feels it has to react. Plus if a benevolent possession did get found out, it's not like the Templars are going to record that, they're just going to kill that mage, pat themselves on the back and say good riddance.

The entire set up of the Circle does not encourage any possessed mage to be open and honest about what is going on. As a matter of life and death they are going to hide it and never breath a word to anyone. Not tell their students or their peers or record it in their dairy. And even if they do tell someone, and that person keeps it secret from the Templars, then that person has good incentive to keep it secret even past the possessed mage's death, because if the Templars found out they knew and didn't report a possession, well, it's not going to be pretty.

Post Harrowing possessions!

You meet a Spirit during your Harrowing. You chat with them. The spirit helps you. You like the spirit, maybe started to consider them a friend. You kill the demon. You pass your Harrowing. The spirit who talked to you and helped you through the Harrow starts visiting your dreams now you are an official Mage of the Circle. Sometime later you agree to them possessing you. No one notices.

Why do you agree? Maybe you trust them. Maybe you are lonely. Maybe you are curious. Maybe you are bored. Maybe you are angry. Maybe you are depressed and don't want to be trapped here in this life anymore. Maybe you want to help them. Maybe you are afraid of demons and decide that choosing who possess you is better then waiting until you falter. Maybe you keep seeing your fellow mages leave you, death, Tranquility, transfer to another circle, and you want a friend who will be with you always. Maybe you want to study a particular type of magic but are not skilled at it.

There are all sorts of reasons a mage might agree to a possession.

Spirit Healers having unusually high levels of possession is basically canon. What with both Anders and Wynne being possessed spirit healers. I think Spirit Healing requires the ability to attract and interact with spirits at a higher level then most mages, but becoming possessed is completely optional. It's just that they interact with benevolent spirits regularly, with the mage becoming familiar with the spirits they rely up and the spirits becoming familiar with the mage they help.

I think this intimacy with Spirits also contributes to the rarity of Spirit Healers. As in it is not just rare to have the knack, but for all that a fully trained spirit healer is valuable, I bet mages with the potential are more likely to be killed by Templars. Probably not helped by the offensive nature of the Harrowing, as a mage who is disinclined to violence might struggle more when suddenly forced into a death match with a demon, although their greater familiarity with spirits might also help.

Of course all this assumes that the Templars both allow the apprentice mage to undergo the Harrowing in the first place, and that they don't terrifying them into choosing Tranquility when making the choice between the unknown and dangerous ritual test suddenly thrust upon them in the middle of the night and the known horror of the Tranquil.

[raven-6-10]

Oh, the Chantry and the Templars definitely don't have accurate records there and the mages sure don't tell them.

Just look at Rivain! Dairsmuid Circle straight up trained mages in the traditional seer techniques that involved voluntary possessions. And nobody who knew talked about it! It wasn't found out until the Seekers went there to Annul the Circle (you won't convince me they weren't already planning it and fully expecting to come up with a justification post facto). And I headcanon they only found out because they themselves are possessed by Faith spirits, even if they aren't aware of it.

[briarruler]

Going to work my way down responses in the tags by order of which part of this post they follow on from.

Firstly continuing to address tags attached to the original post:

@kirkwallguy 12h ago #YEPPP. and tbh i think even a lot of mages might be slightly possessed while not fully knowing about it #since they've been taught all their life that possession is violent and painful and scary #and this is just a nice presence keeping them safe. how do they know it's not the maker.

That's a fascinating idea. I never would have thought of it but now you've mentioned it, I can really see it.

Also given I go with the headcanon that Andraste was simply a very powerful mage possessed by a very powerful spirit, well, you could kind of say they're right?

@shirayuki7 10h ago #oh man i need a possessed mage warden#could you imagine#say a warden amell#accepts the pride demons deal during their harrowing

Mouse is nice. I liked him. Also the sheer irony of First Enchanter Irving's star pupil walking out of the Harrowing possessed, right under his and the Knight-Commanders noses, and no-one noticing. Being praised on how quick and clean their Harrowing was.

You've got to wonder what the Joining does to an abomination, does it differ from how it affects a normal recruit. Like, I'd assume possessed mages have undergone the Joining at some point in Grey Warden history, but I don't remember any canon mention of such?

Canonically Justice possessed a Grey Warden corpse and then possessed a Grey Warden mage, but both of those bodies had already undergone the Joining when he possessed them, plus Justice was already in odd circumstances for a Spirit. Hmm.

wardenalissa 10h ago #exactly#deeply unlikely wynne is some freak aberration#her spirit liked her im sure a LOT of mages have spirits who fuck w their vibes

Yeah, no, I think that the circumstances aligned such that she was possessed but it wasn't about anything truly unique to her. Actually I suspect it might be a pretty common possibility for any Spirit Healer dying in combat. Or other specialties that involve close and willing work with spirits.

The deep bond, the attachment and trust between a mage and a spirit that watches over them, and suddenly their mage is dying and desperately doesn't want to be? Recipe for sudden possession, and a benevolent, functioning possession because they are familiar with each other and trust each other and the spirit has been glimpsing the mortal world through their mage's work for some time so the transition is less of a shock.

heliomanteia 10h ago #🎮#da#I don't mean to sound like an ass /gen but I thought this was always the underlying issue/flaw of the Order #Like in DAO I think if you play a mage Cullen talks about how they spot abominations and it's obvious they only know One Particular Kind#The trashy and loud ones. WHICH. With Vivienne's story in mind might give false positives if a mage is just... panicked but not possessed #But it can also give false negatives if a mage is very composed and/or dissociates the fuck out of it or if a demon is smart#Like Templars do NOT work is the point of the whole thing y'know#Good post tho

No your fine, and like you're right. It really is one of the underlying and kind of obvious flaws of the Templar-Circle system. But that doesn't stop people from missing it. And sometimes one just wants to say something that seems obvious to check that other people have also noticed and agreed with their conclusion. And to, like, check their thought doesn't have some flaw they've overlooked.

teyrnacousland 8h ago #Yessss realizing this is one of the things that inspired my Surana warden#She makes a deal with Mouse during her Harrowing and the whole time she's trying not to freak out like THEY'RE GONNA KNOW#(They do not know)

Mouse is great, I loved Mouse. I also feel like Templars probably didn't intend for Mages to get help from friendly Pride Demon/might-have-been-Spirit but they don't seem to know anything that happens in your Harrowing beyond 'have you killed the target demon'. So if a different demon possess you? Turns out they're oblivious.

So much of the Templar Order and the Circle of Magi is built on lies and hypocrisy.

physicist-pi 7h ago #personally I headcanon my spirit healer Hawke ended up having to agree to possession during the Meredith boss fight#just completely fucking burnt all her mana out and her spirit buddy basically went to help her out#she kept it very well under wraps until adamant and the fade #but yeah we even see Cassandra can't identify avaar possessions at all#and she's a seeker of truth

Yeah, you force a Spirit Healer into a grueling, deadly fight and it's a toss up if they walk back out possessed or not.

(Snorts) That's kind of pathetic. Seekers of Truth are meant to be elite and they are failing as badly as the Templars.

Secondly addressing tags that follow on from second part of this post:

tarasylsulahn 8h ago #I actually have Ama become possessed or something like it during Nature of the Beast#It's both how she learns the Arcane Warrior subclass#but also what opens her up to learning the Spirit Healer subclass#as until that point she's not got any special knack for spirits#No one notices#Except Wynn#The first time they see each other after is *something*

Hmm, with the phylactery trapped elven spirit? Yeah, I can see that, the memory transfer as a form of possession.

Sounds interesting.

commas-and-ampersands 7h ago #da origins#...do i dare make evie an abomination?#my cullenmance???#that'd be so fucking messy#i'm compelled#she is a spirit healer so like... pretty easy jump to make#god i'm going to devote so much time to this now lol#evie trevelyan

...Honestly can't comment on Cullen romances.

But go wild. Have fun. Glad I inspired interesting thoughts even as I give a half amused half apologetic grin in recognition of the joy and horror of having New Ideas, especially about a semi-established character/story.

tith 7h ago #so far as i recall the only time anyone ever like. ‘tests’ whether someone is possessed#as in like actually does something besides tell you whether they sense the presence of a demon through?? psychic means?#is when Merrill tastes Keran’s blood to determine that he’s not possessed#would be interesting to see more instances of possessions that are sort of flying under the radar but maybe not as seamless as Wynne#but like. i 🖤 anders + justice so i don’t get tired of exploring that one….#dragon age

'Sensing demons' does seem like the way to notice them. It's just people tend to be so bad at it. And even then mages seem to be better at it then Templars and it's like at least a 1/4 of a Templar's supposed job, to notice possessions.

The possibility that detecting possession is a blood mage specific skill? That's so juicy, so ironic.

Or I guess it could be Dalish skill? Which would make a certain amount of sense given the different way they interact with Mages and Spirits then culturally Andrastian people do, they would presumably have their own methods to detect possession which Merrill as a Keeper's First would presumably know.

Hmm.

emptykitkat 6h ago #dragon age#oooooooo fascinating actually#need an oc who is possessed now

Go for it! Glad people found my post inspiring.

varggies 6h ago #bioware was insane for making the templars and mages situation as complex as they did#and then expected everyone to want to side with the templars in da2#crazy shit#dragon age#the circle

We might have forgiven the brutality if only Templars were actually useful as opposed to being the root cause of most mage related problems in the first place.

Thirdly addressing the reblog by @raven-6-10 which now makes up the third part of my post:

Yeah. Like most Circles are culturally Andrastian, so you probably wouldn't have wide spread possession among the Mages, or if it was the case most Mages would not know that a high degree of other Mages are also possessed.

But Rivain's Dairsmuid Circle? A disputed territory that is still retains it's own culture, with several foreign influences on it? Either the Chantry didn't know about the continuing practice of Seers at all, or they sort of turned a blind eye until the Mage Rebellion had them deciding to take this opportunity to crack down and kill all the mages they could get their hands on, as an example to other Circles, especially if they could 'justify' it by finding that the Circle had been 'corrupted'.

And finally addressing the comments by @reformedvillain

reformedvillain 8h thinking about the Mages who got possessed but the Spirit/Demon was so down low they forgot/believed they imagined the possession to the point the Spirit/Demon went dormant 8h thinking about the public discovering Harrowing got plenty of mages possessed and they never stirred any trouble thus shifting the perception of Abominations Thedas wide and granting a naming rebrand for 'controlled Abominations' (like Anders or Wynne) 8h thinking about Demons possessing Mages but staying low until they can get their right moment and growing attached to their host and turning into Spirits inside and doing their best to protect their host

Neat ideas.

I can see how if the possession is very subtle you might fool yourself into believing it never happened. It's safer that way.

The Harrowing itself isn't public knowledge, only Templars who have witnessed it and Mages who have gone through it know what it is. You'd have to have a very good spin and some way of informing the public. It would be hard against the fear of mages and fear of demons that the Chantry has engineered into the public consciousness.

Spirits and Demons are highly influenced by the perception of them. So maybe, if a Mage Believed strongly enough in the positive qualities of a demon inclined Spirit possessing them, I can see how that might push the Spirit back towards a more friendly alignment, at least towards their host.

There really should be some word to describe a friendly possession as distinct from an unfriendly possession. I mean, maybe not in regions with strong Chantry presence, I can see how if a word separate from Abomination used to exist they might have worked to wipe it from the language. But people who regularly practice friendly possession should have their own terminology for it.

[briarruler]

Going to address the comments first in this fifth part of my post:

reformedvillain 19h in the Shale DLC you can get a little girl (Amelia) possessed with a Desire demon but the Demon promises to not do anything to the kid until she becomes an adult and in the meantime she canonically grows attached and turns into a Spirit of Love and renounces fully possessing her dearreader 16h wait she does??? i usually kill the demon but now i kinda wanna do this reformedvillain 15h @dearreader yes, it's confirmed in a short story ^^

Do you remember the name of the short story? I've always felt sorry for Kitty, but not enough to let her posses Amalia.

reformedvillain 18h As for shifting public perception it would change depending on the strength of Andrastian Faith in the region. Rivain might just go 'yeah ??? We've been known ???? You mean that's news for everyone else ?????' Nevarra might be sort of chill about it since they also fuck a lot with Demons/Spirits but places like Orlais which is basically Chantry Central, and the Free Marches which are pretty devout in answer to Tevinter invasion, it might be more complicated, maybe depending on who the King/Queen is Ferelden might be more chill but still pretty cautious (Alistair being quite critical of the Chantry and the whole Circle thing and his possible friendship with a Surana/Amell HoF and said mage being the Arl of Amarantine and whether they were successful/appreciated by the people). So many possibilities for Religious Schisms regarding their treatment of Mages and once again, you brought this upon yourselves, baby. In general the Chantry sitting their hegemony by strict control and monetisation of Magic/Mages and this same treatment being the reason why they end up falling is hilarious to me

Yeah, there would be major differences in reaction depending on which region you are talking and how indoctrinated/faithful the population is.

Exactly that, Mages are scapegoat, bogeyman and fruitful resource all in one, forming a fundamental pillar of Chantry control.

jenn2d2 10h I think a lot of whether they can notice depends on the mages running the Harrowing. I think they have some control over that environment BUT... there's always a chance they're also corrupted. I love the idea that there's a lot of room there, and like so many other 'absolutes' from the Chantry, it's a lot less cut and dried.

We never do get a clear answer on how much control of the Fade section and target demon the Mage overseeing the Harrowing has. Like could the First Enchanter give easier demons to apprentices they favor and harder demons to troublemakers? We don't know.

It does seem pretty likely that they can't actually see what is going on inside the Fade with the apprentice mage. Just, no one talks about knowing what the apprentice did, only if they passed or failed and how long it took them. Which is a serious oversight in a ritual that every apprentice who becomes a Mage of the Circle must go through.

theunsinkablesappho 6h No one, not Irving, not Greagoir, not Alistair, ever notices that Wynne is an abomination. The only person who maybe sort of might know is the apprentice who saw her die. Petra, I think? And she is either uncertain about what she saw, in denial about what she saw, or hiding it to protect Wynne from possible consequences.

This. Pretty sure it is Petra, but I think she's a Mage not an Apprentice. I suspect it's a bit of a combination of all three. Like I don't think Petra thinks Wynne is possessed, and if she ever had the thought she's quickly banished it. I'd say that this also implies there is not any visual effect when a Mage is possessed. Or at least the very least not any that couldn't be passed off as healing magic or maybe combat magic.

Secondly continuing to address tags attached to the original post:

crimsonphantasmagoria 17h ago #Quite literally what happened with wynne and faith#Nobody would have known if she hadn’t said something more or less

Basically yeah. Like clearly no once notices once a Mage is walking around possessed unless they do something blatant obvious.

You'd think that in the actual Harrowing ritual, where for centuries they've been sending in apprentice mages to face and kill a demon or fail and be killed by the demon/possessed by the demon/killed by the Templars, they might have set up something to detect possessions? But no, I think they are just running on how the Mage's body looks to the Templars observing and that the end of the Harrowing is triggered by the death of the target demon.

Like. I'm not even sure they know other demons and spirits can and do gatecrash the Harrowing?

I don't think all Harrowings get gatecrashers and given the very secretive nature of the Harrowing I also don't think mages talk about how their Harrowing went often or in much detail. So circle mages might end up with wildly different experiences of the Harrowing and not know it.

despitethequn 15h ago #the Templars are just an excuse for the Chantry to abuse and scare mages#they're literally useless for anything else and get tossed aside once their lyrium addiction incapacitates them#and like any police force their 'training' is left...wanting

I've seen people suggest that the actual main purpose of the Templars is to give the Chantry a standing military in every Andrastian country. Templars aka trained and armoured knights in full armour, stationed in all cities and roaming the country side, answerable only to the Chantry.

The idea that mages need controlling and the Chantry is the only group who can correctly and properly control them... it gives the Chantry incredible power, socially, economically and militarily.

andrastesdirtysocks 12h ago #templars once again being shitty even at their one job#as well as in general #... tho now i think that's why they're trying to make harrowing as scary as possible#you don't know what's about to happen#how to deal with it#all you know is that you will die or be made tranquil if you fuck up#bit of a stressful situation for a teen

It's like the Templars have an 'official job' that is an excuse for their existence, protecting the mages in their care and people from mages, which they are the Actual Worst at. Then they have their real job of enforcing Chantry power by creating Tranquil to fund the Circles, making Chantry obedient Mages in the Circles and enforcing public fear of mages so people will turn to the Chantry and the Templars for safety.

ashillayn 11h ago #wonder how many non-possessed mages they killed after a harrowing

I wonder how many Mages they kill for taking too long. From memory it is Mouse who tells you the Templars will kill you if you take too long in the Fade, but, honestly? I believe him. Of course 'too long' is probably variable depending on which Circle you are in and your relationship with the Templars and First Enchanter.

But yes. The Harrowing is a perfect excuse to kill apprentices deliberately or just by over enthusiastic Templars deciding you came out too disorientated or traumatized or fighting or upset and therefor must be possessed!

mysticcowboygod 42m ago #i often think about how pretty much the entire templar order is fooled by a straight up envy demon in dai#like holy shit guys. that's your job?? like one of your only jobs???#THEY'RE SO BAD AT IT.

I know. I... (Sigh) Yeah. I know.

It's so pathetic it would be funny if it wasn't killing people and so instead it's appalling. I genuinely think mages would be better a policing and teaching themselves. If nothing else it would be hard to worse then the Templars at stopping possessions.

There is a part of me that looks at the Templars and the Circle of Magi and goes: was this system actually engineered by the Chantry to increase fear of Mages and Chantry control by deliberately provoking mages to possession and so justifying the presence of a Chantry controlled military presence across multiple nations?

Probably not, but it sure looks like that sometimes!

The Envy Demon fooling the Templars and the Seekers in Dragon Age: Inquisition. The Desire Demons enchanting Templars to fight for them in Dragon Age: Origins. The Templars caught up obliviously in the Sloth Demon's trap in Dragon Age: Origins. Cullen assaulting a Templar (recruit?) for some other reason (might have been suspected mage sympathy or for sneaking off, don't remember) and then being genuinely surprised when he turns out to be possessed and attacked Cullen in return in Dragon Age: II. There are just so, so many instances of Templar incompetence when it comes to dealing with demons and possession.

Thirdly addressing tags that followed on the the fourth part of this post:

shirayuki7 8h ago #love this post#im off to go write a possessed mage now!!!!#ty ty ty briarruler

Cool. Mouse and Amell or a different spirit/mage pair? Well, either way, have fun!