Nerdpickle

Gender: Cis Male Pronouns: He/Him

[darkgryphon-220]

Here's a something I found from the Episode Three novelization:

Because Mace, too, has an attachment. Mace has a secret love. Mace Windu loves the Republic. Many of his students quote him to students of their own: “Jedi do not fight for peace. That's only a slogan, and is as misleading as slogans always are. Jedi fight for civilization, because only civilization creates peace. For Mace Windu, for all his life, for all the lives of a thousand years of Jedi before him, true civilization has had only one true name: the Republic.

I really hope I don't have to explain why this is so concerning.

[cosmicmordecai]

This never made sense because he’s has an attachment to something that he actively dislikes & routinely fucks him other to the point he engages in on principle.

Granted, this is before Clone Wars delved into it where Palpatine actively complicates things publicly & privately but his comments from the ending of Episode 2 is not an unequivocal love & support.

[darkgryphon-220]

We could just say “he’s a hypocrite” and leave it at that.

[darkgryphon-220]

Here's a something I found from the Episode Three novelization:

Because Mace, too, has an attachment. Mace has a secret love. Mace Windu loves the Republic. Many of his students quote him to students of their own: “Jedi do not fight for peace. That's only a slogan, and is as misleading as slogans always are. Jedi fight for civilization, because only civilization creates peace. For Mace Windu, for all his life, for all the lives of a thousand years of Jedi before him, true civilization has had only one true name: the Republic.

I really hope I don't have to explain why this is so concerning.

Edit: Swap “The Republic” with “Europe” and you’ll see how concerning this belief is

[darkgryphon-220]

Why the Excision?

The Mandalorian Excision was an unprovoked attack against the Mandalorians conducted by the Jedi and Republic. It resulted in Mandalore's ecological devastation and current wasteland like surface, and is one of the Jedi and Republic's most infamous actions. 

Many Jedi/Republic stans will excuse this action by saying the Mandalorians were the aggressors, disregarding that we have no knowledge of this. Or they will point to atrocities committed and wars waged by the Mandalorians previously (And by previously, I mean thousands of years ago) as a way to justify the Excision, but I disagree. Here is what I believe the reason was.

Firstly, the Republic had previously conducted what are known as the unification campaigns. Essentially after the New Sith wars, the Republic was fractured, and some worlds didn't want to return, so they declared their independence. The Republic responded with military force, not allowing those worlds to leave. I wouldn't be surprised if some of those worlds had become Mandalorian protectorates (more on those in a later post).

Secondly, the Mandalorians had control of the Hydian way, one of the five most important trade routes in the galaxy, and they began taxing trade. So the excision was also motivated by economic interests, with companies and corporations likely “encouraging” the Republic to conduct the excision.

Thirdly, the Republic and Jedi wanted to remove a threat to their power. While the Mandalorians weren't doing anything at the time, another war was very possible. We know the Republic wanted the Mandalorians to disarm, but these are Mandalorians, weapons are part of their religion, and the Republic has no authority over them. 

A good reason why the Jedi would aid in the excision is because the Mandalorians were the biggest check against their power now that the Sith were gone. If the Mandalorians are out of the picture, then the Jedi could operate near unopposed. 

All in all, the Republic wanted to reassert their political, territorial and economic dominance, and the Jedi wanted to get rid of the one group who could serve as a check against their power. This fits pretty well with the definition of imperialism.

The unfortunate thing is had the Republic allowed the Mandalorians to remain warriors, and not required them to disarm, there's a chance the Mandalorians could have joined the Republic. They would likely put their martial skills to work keeping the peace and fighting pirates, slavers and the like.

I'm surprised such a deal was not proposed or accepted, it makes perfect sense. But I can also think of one group of people, conveniently possessing mind influencing powers, who might not want the Republic to have a check against them.

[knight-of-the-graces]

See, most of these are extremely good points, but I can't say I agree with the level of involvement that you think the Jedi had. (I say this as someone who believes that the Jedi have absolutely done some things that they shouldn't have, but also that the Republic --and specifically the Senate-- are more responsible for most of them than the Jedi, especially depending on the time period and the level of information that was shared with the Jedi regarding such things. To be completely honest, I'm much more of a Mando fan than a Jedi fan, but have been doing a lot of research regarding things like Dral'han.)

I really do not think that the Jedi Order as a whole were anywhere near as involved with Dral'han as they're implied to be. Keep in mind, I am no expert, but I'm cross-referencing pretty much everything I'm saying here so at least some of it has to be accurate.

The Jedi stopped being a militant force after the Ruusan Reformations led to the debanding of the Army of Light, up until the Clone Wars. Yes, there were Jedi involved in military conflicts after that point, but that was the last time the Jedi Order involved themselves in a military conflict to anywhere near that degree. And it devastated the Order, especially with how shortly the Ruusan Reformations followed and the demanded restructuring. During the period of time that Dral'han would have happened in, the Jedi Order were far too focused on rebuilding themselves to be so involved in the affairs of the Republic.

I do think it was possible that there were Jedi involved in Dral'han (in fact, in my Tarre Vizsla fanfic, there was a small group of Jedi heavily involved in the conflict... who then suffered repercussions from the rest of the Order for their actions).

But there is also a more plausible theory, and one that we've seen again and again throughout the history of the Republic.

There is (from what I've seen, please correct me if I'm wrong!) no actual record of which Jedi were involved in Dral'han, or how-- on the Fandom page (which, I know, is likely to be inaccurate, but this is the only source I've found), it lists "Jedi Order" under combatants, and "Members of the Jedi Order" under commanders. There is not a single name listed. Granted, there are no other names listed regarding Dral'han itself, but it's still odd. The Mandalorians are a people with a very long memory and a deep hatred for the Jedi, and Dral'han was a very public event; it could hardly not be, considering everything about it. Would Mandalorians not remember the names of those involved, particularly if they were Jedi?

My theory is that the Jedi were involved on either a very small, individual scale (considering that, according to the Ruusan Reformations, the Jedi weren't allowed the level of involvement in military conflicts implied), or weren't really involved at all. We've seen the Republic (and later, the Empire) scapegoat the Jedi many times. Considering everything surrounding Dral'han, and the fact that the Mandalorians were a passive threat to the Republic, it seems more likely that the Republic changed the history so that, if Mandalore ever rose again, their focus would again be on the Jedi, rather than the Republic.

Then again, that's all speculation, since we don't have any real sources regarding Dral'han and know basically nothing... ugh.

tl;dr: While there may have been Jedi involved in Dral'han, it's much more likely that the Order as a whole was not, and that the Jedi involved were working alone. The theory that seems more plausible to me is that the Republic is once again scapegoating the Jedi to avoid the consequences of their own actions. Then again, all speculation.

[darkgryphon-220]

You mention not having any names, but that makes it more likely it was the Jedi order as a whole. If it was an isolated group they are more likely to be named individually. The Jedi also had 300 years to rebuild at this point, and they didn’t take part in the unification campaigns previously, likely in order to rebuild

Also, it should be remembered that Yoda would have been in charge during this period, and something like this isn’t completely out of character. This is the same guy who was willing to condemn criminals to chattel slavery for the “greater good”

I wouldn’t be surprised if there was dissent from some Jedi over this, but their isn’t much evidence to say that it was a smaller group similar to the revanchists.

Also, which fanfic are you talking about? I might have read it.

[darkgryphon-220]

During the period of the late Republic, the planet of Kalee underwent a massive famine, with people dying in the hundreds of thousands.

The Jedi have an entire branch of their order dedicated to agriculture, you would think they would send some Jedi to help, maybe with some humanitarian aid?

They didn’t, because the famine was manmade, the result of sanctions enforced by the Republic and Jedi to punish the Kaleesh for fighting back against their colonizers.

This is why Grevious, who is a Kaleesh, hates the Jedi. According to legends, he had to see his ten wives die of starvation and see his thirty children kidnapped and subjected to “immense depravity”

Yes, that is a quote

[darkgryphon-220]

The Jedi Code’s Interpretations

Many Jedi stans will claim that the Jedi allow emotion and passions despite the fact that the first line of their entire code is “there is no emotion” and another line is “there is no passion”

But because they live in denial, they often point to this alternate, less rigid interpretation of the code:

Emotion, yet peace.

Ignorance, yet knowledge.

Passion, yet serenity.

Chaos, yet harmony.

Death, yet the Force

The problem is that when you look deeper into it, this form of the code was used during the Old Sith Wars, around 4,000 years before the events of the prequel trilogy, and back when the Jedi order was much less rigid. institutions can change for better or for worse, and by the time of the prequel trilogy the Jedi had long since changed for the worse.

Edit: it’s interesting how they are so willing to promote lore from the extended material as fact when it helps their argument, but dismiss it when it makes the Jedi look bad.

[darkgryphon-220]

When I was re-reading the Death Watch manifesto, I came across this gem of a line:

“The New Mandalorians treacherously disposed of many heirloom suits of Beskar’gam”

Assuming Vizla is telling the truth, than that’s another point for the “The New Mandalorians aren’t real Mandalorians” and “Satine’s actions constitute cultural genocide” arguments.

Also really messed up given how important the armor is and the fact that these suits could have been thousands of years old.

[darkgryphon-220]

How do the Jedi stans justify the whole child soldiers thing?

Ahsoka and Kanan were 14 when they fought in the Clone Wars, Cal was 12-13. They were not only sent into war, but put in charge of large numbers of soldiers, as they were given the rank of commander.

this wasn’t just a clone wars thing, Rael Aveross’ padawan, Nim Pianna, was 14 when she went on a mission to protect a freighter from pirates, and she died on that mission.

Like, wtf, how do they defend this? This is literally a war crime

[darkgryphon-220]

it should be remembered that Mandalorian armor isn’t just wargear, it serves as a way to create a shared cultural identity and image. That’s why it’s part of their core cultural tenants, and it’s why the fact that Satine’s New Mandalorians don’t wear it is very telling.

[darkgryphon-220]

One thing I love about the prequel trilogy is that the Jedi order actively preaches against attachment, yet it’s the Jedi order’s attachment to the Republic that ends up getting the Jedi destroyed.

[darkgryphon-220]

if you were to ask a Death Watch member what they are fighting for, how many would say “we just want our home back”

Extremism usually comes from somewhere, and Satine’s forced exile of all the Mandalorian traditionalists is probably the reason Death Watch got so big and powerful despite being such an extreme group. It doesn’t help that the Death Watch were the only traditionalist Mandalorian group who actually planned on retaking Mandalore for the traditionalists, the others mostly wanted to do their own thing

This is an example one of my favorite tropes in fiction/history, the enemy of your own making.

does this make the death Watch good? Heck no! They are still a group of hyper orthodox ethno-nationalist terrorists, even if you can understand why some of them became that way

[darkgryphon-220]

It's really telling that two of the best Jedi killers in the later years of the Republic, Jango Fett and Greivous, were both monsters of the Jedi Order and Republic’s making. 

Before becoming a bounty hunter, Jango Fett was a member and later leader of the true Mandalorians, who were an incredibly positive force in Mandalorian society, and the Mandalorian people’s best hope for long term stability and prosperity. Especially given that the only other options were the violent ethno-nationalists or the reformers who have abandoned so much of their heritage that they don't even qualify as Mandalorians anymore, and practice the stupidest brand of pacifism.

But because the Jedi didn't bother to do the most basic of research, and instead just took the governor's word for it, they ended up massacring the True Mandalorians. Jango Fett would be 

sold into slavery, and later emerged as a ruthless mercenary who hated the Jedi so much he was willing to go along with the clone army plan.

Before becoming a general in the CIS, Grievous was a Kaleesh warlord who was fighting against the Huk, who had been colonizing and enslaving his people. He was winning as well, until the Huk used their connections to convince the Republic senate that the Kaleesh were the invaders.

Once again the Jedi did zero research, and instead defended the Huk, the invaders, against the people the Huk had previously invaded. Ultimately the Huk would get off scot free, and Kalee would be sanctioned and embargoed by the Republic to the point where hundreds of thousands of them died due to starvation. 

For the crime of defending themselves against their colonizers, the Jedi and Republic knowingly sentenced the Kaleesh people to starvation. Grievous was forced to hire himself out as a mercenary for the Banking Clan, who used their connections in the senate to get the sanction lifted.

So when Grievous says this:

“Listen to me, Jedi! I do not care about your politics! I don't care about your Republic! I only live to see you die!”

And this:

"Murderer? Is it murder to rid the galaxy of you Jedi filth?”

You can kind of understand where he's coming from. 

[darkgryphon-220]

So I have been reading Star Wars: The Jedi Path, specifically the section on Jedi recruitment, and I want to share some of what I found,

Remember all of the stuff I have quoted was written by and for members of the Jedi order, so odds are the truth is less pretty

“Mandatory blood tests performed at birth record a child’s midi-chlorian count, and positive results are forwarded to the Jedi temple for follow up”

Yes, within the Republic, these blood tests are mandatory, and the Jedi are sent the results

“Within the Republic, the Jedi Order has legal authority to take custody of force sensitives"

This could be interpreted as giving the Jedi have legal authority to take kids without parental consent, and given that in the book this is used as a defense against the accusation that the Jedi are kidnappers, this law might actually give the Jedi that authority, how often they exercise that authority is another story

“Some masters have argued that the Force’s presence in a child indicates the child's consent to join the order even before he or she is able to speak”

I should not have to explain why this is not a good belief, thankfully it seems to be a minority within the Jedi, but the fact that this idea is tolerated in an order that is known to police the thoughts of its members is concerning

[cris-doing-cris-things]

I guess at least this answers why they have a full holocron with names of all force-sensitive children in the galaxy.... Massive yikes, especially as most other sources that do touch upon jedi recruitment echo similar stuff Also about "being force-sensitive is an immediate consent to join the order" Pretty sure the book got this one wrong, actually - it is not the minority, it's the majority of the jedi Because it being a minority implies they actually ask "recruits" if they actually want to be a part of the order, and people give consent, and most recruits are above the age of 5 at least, while in actuality 99% of the jedi recruits are actually 1-3 yo toddlers, who indeed cannot even speak yet Recruiting toddlers have been the norm with the jedi for hundreds of years at the time PT rolls in, they consider it a normal thing and the only way to escape "the dark side indoctrination" that might "corrupt force-sensitives unaware of what religion is _actually_ right"

[darkgryphon-220]

I was more referring to the potential of Jedi recruiters using it as a justification for taking children without parental consent, saying that because their child consented, the parent has no say, but that works too

[darkgryphon-220]

So I have been reading Star Wars: The Jedi Path, specifically the section on Jedi recruitment, and I want to share some of what I found,

Remember all of the stuff I have quoted was written by and for members of the Jedi order, so odds are the truth is less pretty

“Mandatory blood tests performed at birth record a child’s midi-chlorian count, and positive results are forwarded to the Jedi temple for follow up”

Yes, within the Republic, these blood tests are mandatory, and the Jedi are sent the results

“Within the Republic, the Jedi Order has legal authority to take custody of force sensitives"

This could be interpreted as giving the Jedi have legal authority to take kids without parental consent, and given that in the book this is used as a defense against the accusation that the Jedi are kidnappers, this law might actually give the Jedi that authority, how often they exercise that authority is another story

“Some masters have argued that the Force’s presence in a child indicates the child's consent to join the order even before he or she is able to speak”

I should not have to explain why this is not a good belief, thankfully it seems to be a minority within the Jedi, but the fact that this idea is tolerated in an order that is known to police the thoughts of its members is concerning

[gothimonroe]

Makes you wonder if Padme ever thought about those rights and what that would mean for her child. Like she could assume the chance of having a force sensitive baby with Anakin as a father would be rather high, was she ever worried that one day the Jedi would try to take her child away from her? Did she plan to hide their baby? Was she scared that after taking her husband the Jedi would one day take her child as well?

[darkgryphon-220]

She was a senate member with a relatively good reputation, that could protect her outright, the Jedi serve the senate after all, and if they tried it would be a PR nightmare, so Padme would have been safe

it’s the kids from the impoverished backwaters that I’m worried about, remember the Jedi order is immune to criminal prosecution, it’s why they had to expel Ahsoka, defending her wasn’t worth the bad PR

[darkgryphon-220]

So I have been reading Star Wars: The Jedi Path, specifically the section on Jedi recruitment, and I want to share some of what I found,

Remember all of the stuff I have quoted was written by and for members of the Jedi order, so odds are the truth is less pretty

“Mandatory blood tests performed at birth record a child’s midi-chlorian count, and positive results are forwarded to the Jedi temple for follow up”

Yes, within the Republic, these blood tests are mandatory, and the Jedi are sent the results

“Within the Republic, the Jedi Order has legal authority to take custody of force sensitives"

This could be interpreted as giving the Jedi have legal authority to take kids without parental consent, and given that in the book this is used as a defense against the accusation that the Jedi are kidnappers, this law might actually give the Jedi that authority, how often they exercise that authority is another story

“Some masters have argued that the Force’s presence in a child indicates the child's consent to join the order even before he or she is able to speak”

I should not have to explain why this is not a good belief, thankfully it seems to be a minority within the Jedi, but the fact that this idea is tolerated in an order that is known to police the thoughts of its members is concerning

[darkgryphon-220]

The concept that the Jedi allow love and emotional relationships and that “attachments” is simply unhealthy relationships is way more fanon than the concept that the light and dark side are equal aspects of the force, and that a force user who balances the dark and light side within themselves can exist

[darkgryphon-220]

A youtube animator called Sodaz just dropped an absolute masterpiece, I highly recommend it.

[darkgryphon-220]

Why the Excision?

The Mandalorian Excision was an unprovoked attack against the Mandalorians conducted by the Jedi and Republic. It resulted in Mandalore's ecological devastation and current wasteland like surface, and is one of the Jedi and Republic's most infamous actions. 

Many Jedi/Republic stans will excuse this action by saying the Mandalorians were the aggressors, disregarding that we have no knowledge of this. Or they will point to atrocities committed and wars waged by the Mandalorians previously (And by previously, I mean thousands of years ago) as a way to justify the Excision, but I disagree. Here is what I believe the reason was.

Firstly, the Republic had previously conducted what are known as the unification campaigns. Essentially after the New Sith wars, the Republic was fractured, and some worlds didn't want to return, so they declared their independence. The Republic responded with military force, not allowing those worlds to leave. I wouldn't be surprised if some of those worlds had become Mandalorian protectorates (more on those in a later post).

Secondly, the Mandalorians had control of the Hydian way, one of the five most important trade routes in the galaxy, and they began taxing trade. So the excision was also motivated by economic interests, with companies and corporations likely “encouraging” the Republic to conduct the excision.

Thirdly, the Republic and Jedi wanted to remove a threat to their power. While the Mandalorians weren't doing anything at the time, another war was very possible. We know the Republic wanted the Mandalorians to disarm, but these are Mandalorians, weapons are part of their religion, and the Republic has no authority over them. 

A good reason why the Jedi would aid in the excision is because the Mandalorians were the biggest check against their power now that the Sith were gone. If the Mandalorians are out of the picture, then the Jedi could operate near unopposed. 

All in all, the Republic wanted to reassert their political, territorial and economic dominance, and the Jedi wanted to get rid of the one group who could serve as a check against their power. This fits pretty well with the definition of imperialism.

The unfortunate thing is had the Republic allowed the Mandalorians to remain warriors, and not required them to disarm, there's a chance the Mandalorians could have joined the Republic. They would likely put their martial skills to work keeping the peace and fighting pirates, slavers and the like.

I'm surprised such a deal was not proposed or accepted, it makes perfect sense. But I can also think of one group of people, conveniently possessing mind influencing powers, who might not want the Republic to have a check against them.

[praetor-canis]

I don’t know, if the Mandalorians acted like Japan and was completely unrepentant of their prior war crimes. Even showing some form of reverence for their past warriors (war criminals) and conquests. Letting them remain warriors could be dangerous. I could see why the Jedi thought it was necessary.

I’m mostly critical of the Jedi, but would anyone honestly allow the Huns or Mongols to become a prominent section of their armed forces? The Mandalorian warrior in Knights of the Old Republic games hardly showed regret.

[darkgryphon-220]

Fair points. We do know that modern Mandalorians hate Demagol, to the point where his name is synonymous with war criminal, so that points to them being at least somewhat remorseful for what they did back then. But ultimately we don’t know enough about this era in Mandalorian history to make an any surefire guesses. They seemed a lot more chill, and my assumption is the Mandalorians of this era were less like the Mongols/Vikings and more like Prussia, but that’s an assumption.