the cage with hope in deepest dark

aster – they/it – deltarune braindump blog

[delta-warriors]

hello. my name is asterisk (aster for short) and my pronouns are they/them

most posts and reblogs here will be deltarune theory/observation/trivia content, also see:

#aster's braindumps – my theories/analyses/etc.

#aster's chatter – my other random crap

#my post – all of my original posts

no i do not have a "main" blog. this is my main blog. deltarune is love. deltarune is life. deltarune is the blood that courses through my veins. del

additional notes:

i'm a kris fictive in a system and still identify as kris internally, but for the purposes of this blog i go by aster and will refer to in-game kris using third person pronouns (they/them)

do not ask me about my headmates. all of us have signed a non-disclosure agreement for privacy reasons and stuff lol

i'm agender + aromantic. asexual too but like mainly aromantic

i use he/him on ralsei. this doesn't mean he can't still be transfem though. gender is a prison and he's chewed through the bars

bepis valley granola bars

[deepfrieddeltarunememes]

I've been worrying about the possibility of there only being a maximum of 3 party members and having to choose between Ralsei and Noelle, but what if that's not going to present an issue for some reason...

[next-frame]

Why is Ralsei called "the impossibility"?

Ralsei's development throughout the chapters made me want to revisit an old theory of mine about what he actually is

(don't worry, though, you don't need to have read it to understand this one)

Up until recently, Ralsei had only ever used fire magic defensively (for example, if you use the ACT "Light Up" against Balthizard), despite the image shown in his version of the prophecy clearly depicting him using fire magic

Now, however, we finally see him use fire magic offensively. And yet, even then, he says he's holding back... because otherwise, things would only get worse

Until ch 5, there wasn't really anyone quite like him

Then Flowery appeared.

Flowery possesses meta knowledge about the game's mechanics and the prophecy, yet he simply doesn't care about the rules that Ralsei follows. He cheats, manipulates his own stats, constantly shows off to earn applause, generates infinite money, openly reveals the nature of the game to others, and defends keeping his Dark World alive so that he and the other flowers can make Asgore happy, even while fully aware that, according to the prophecy, its Dark Fountain is destined to be sealed.

Flowery’s characteristics make you wonder… why him??

All seven flowers are part of Toriel's bouquet, meaning they share the same origin and were also cared for by Asgore.

"Flowers, that were only supposed to live for one smiling day... And yet, he did not let us go. He kept us alive, alongside his love... Every day, he watered us. He talked to us. He sang his dreams to us."

Yet Flowery emerges as the "leader" of both the flowers and that Dark World. At first, I had convinced myself that the reason HE, specifically, took on that role was simply because he might have had a deeper connection with Asgore somehow, after all, he introduces himself as Asgore's college roommate

However, I changed my mind after what we found:

... Why are there seeds covered in warning labels???

Could Flowery actually be the result of some kind of experiment? Is that why he seems so different from the other flowers? Is that where his meta knowledge and his ability to manipulate stats come from? Even if they're fake?

And if we think back, Flowery calls Ralsei an impossibility

Now that line makes a lot more sense.

If Flowery is an experiment and shares so many similarities with Ralsei, wouldn't it be logical to consider that Ralsei might also be the result of an experiment?

The difference is that Ralsei identifies himself as a DARKNER. If he is an impossibility born from an experiment, then what could be more impossible than the existence of a Darkner WITHOUT a counterpart in the Light World? I mean, even the Titans have counterparts in the Light World...

Following that logic, could we then say that Ralsei is a... Pure Darkner?

And that adds another layer to the tension between Ralsei and Flowery. Flowery holds the same kind of knowledge and similar abilities, but he is neither a Lightner nor a Darkner, so he doesn't have to follow any rules. Ralsei, on the other hand, is a Darkner down to the very core of his being. As much as he longs for the freedom to have likes, dislikes, and a personality of his own, his PURPOSE is engraved into him more than anyone else

That's why Ralsei is so focused on the idea that Darkners aren't real, that they shouldn't really have "a personality". Yet the way he says it isn't convincing. He frames it as though he's talking about DARKNERS in general, but everything about his speech feels much more personal, as though he's really talking about HIMSELF:

And maybe that's why he's SO FOCUSED on not developing a personality. After all, how could he ALLOW himself the luxury of becoming someone when the very principle of his very existence doesn't exist? ...when his own being has no rightful place in the world?

Think about it...

Is there any other Darkner who shows the same level of emotional self-surveillance as Ralsei? Take King, for example. Once he felt abandoned by the Lightners, he openly rebelled against them out of resentment. The other Darkners express their emotions and desires freely and, despite depending on the Lightners, none of them seem to police themselves nearly as much as Ralsei does

Ralsei doesn't even allow himself to feel happy about having friends or sad about not being able to be there for them. Instead, he immediately jumps to the conclusion that this is very selfish of him.

What he says really feels like a exaggeration, because even though Kris and Susie are friends with other darkners, none of them seem to torment themselves over it… not even Lancer, who's incredibly attached to Susie

That always stood out to me. It always felt deeply PERSONAL. And now there seems to be a reason behind that feeling

The way he thinks so little of himself may stem precisely from his awareness that he's different, that he isn't entirely real. And if Ralsei knows about the final prophecy... then there's a possibility that it may even involve sealing every Dark Fountain foreverto ensure that another Roaring can never happen again

The other Darkners would continue to exist through their Light World counterparts. But Ralsei...

simply wouldn't

So would his entire journey of self-discovery amount to nothing in the end?

If that's the case, then I can picture Ralsei being trapped between two opposing beliefs:

1 - He wants to believe the prophecy can be changed, because this is a world where the impossible has already happened. After all, if someone like him can exist, who's to say other impossibilities aren't also within reach? Maybe that's exactly why Flowery keeps trying to open his eyes

2 - At the same time, he believes the prophecy is absolute... ...who's to say they'll get lucky enough for another impossible event to occur? So why break the rules?

And if we look even deeper, the ones who begin encouraging him are Kris and Susie. If the Lightners want him to open up, to discover who he is, then that probably makes it easier for Ralsei to try. Because, in the end, he'd still be fulfilling a Lightner's wish... he'd still be serving his purpose. That's why he constantly seeks reassurance and validation that it's okay for him to have feelings and opinions of his own.

(It's sad how quick he was to dismiss his own feelings the moment he realized they didn't align with our opinion… he didn't even try to first explain why he had that "strange feeling", to convince us or warn us)

And as far as we currently know, something very strange is happening in Hometown:

And considering that Deltarune is Undertale's parallel story, I don't think it's much of a stretch to imagine that, once again, some kind of experiment is taking place involving one of each game's central themes

In Undertale, determination.

In Deltarune, darkness.

And given the parallels between Flowey and Ralsei, I don't think it's unreasonable to wonder if the same underlying idea is at play here

[brixbraxium]

PIRATE THEORY

In Chapter 2, the dojo is the regular Dojo, and we are told we need Training.

WHAT HAPPENS NEXT? CHPATER 3: We fight The Knight, who we need to be Good at the game to beat CHAPTER 4: Gerson trains Susie in her magic, and we fight The Titan, a very powerful foe we must defeat violently. Checks out.

In Chapter 4, the Dojo is the Love Dojo.

What happens next?

CHAPTER 5: LOVE is a main theme of the chapter. We get a ton of Suselle, the festival is all about romance, everyone in castle town is talking about couples, and the flowers themselves are "gifts of love" and whatnot, and Flowery's love for Asgore is his primary motivation. Checks out. In Chapter 5, the Dojo is the Pirate Dojo. What happens next? CHAPTER 6 WILL HAVE AT LEAST ONE PIRATE

THIS IS THE TRUTH

WE WILL SAIL THE SEAS TO THE ISLE OF NORTHERNLIGHT

I DUB THIS, PIRATE THEORY

IT'S COMING

[thesnoringknight]

Sealing away the Dark is the wrong answer.

The Dark Worlds represent everything the Lightners keep buried away in the backs of their minds. They're the places where characters go, end up confronting the things that haunt them, and moving forward and growing from it.

'Closing all the fountains' is not the Maturity Button. It is not a metaphor for growing up. It is the repress everything and become exactly like your parents who don't know how to deal with the fact that they're divorced / their daughter is gone / their son probably doesn't want to come back from college / their wife is genuinely kinda horrible toward their daughter button.

Making that choice will only lead to the darkness under everything growing and becoming even worse, until there is no option but for it to consume everything.

[fallencalf]

Kris having OCD is so important to me because in my mind it essentially explains what Eram is. Eram feels like the culmination of their harm OCD related obsessions— whether Eram is an actual object or purely a concept darkner, the function in the story they have remains the same. In what Eram does in the Sword Route, Eram essentially tells Kris “Your hands are covered in blood. It doesn’t matter if there was never any there to begin with, or if it wasn’t your fault it got there, you are still spiritually rotten. You can try and keep scrubbing but it’ll never go away. You can’t keep your secrets from me— I’ll always know how terrible you are. One day, you’ll hurt everyone around you, and they’ll know how terrible you are, too.” Eram is, well, Kris’ worst nightmare, and Kris’ worst nightmare is hurting those around them.

I think it makes sense that you have to fight Eram in order to beat the Knight, essentially. Because I think that Kris’ harm OCD obsession originates from Dess’ disappearance in some capacity, and they blame themselves for whatever happened to her. Having Kris hurt Dess even if the Knight is absolutely fine, probably is going to be a bit of an OCD trigger for them (and the text in the fight implicates that Kris is really scared whenever fighting her.) I hope that, at least, in the normal route, doing the Sword Route sort of acted as exposure therapy for Kris so that they can better handle their obsessions in the future

[delta-warriors]

i need that green pippins sticker in my mouth

[brixbraxium]

Pacify

I think there's an absolutely massive Chekhov's Gun in DELTARUNE that we're all neglected. I'm not sure exactly how important it'll be, but I'm confident it's more important than everyone seems to think. Let's talk about Pacify. No, I'm not kidding.

Have you ever thought about Pacify? Really thought about Pacify? Why is this spell even here. In UNDERTALE, Monsters became sparable when low on HP. In DELTARUNE, this extremely niche mechanic almost nobody uses was elaborated into what we might call a Whole Thing, with the Tired mechanic.

As we all know, TIRED enemies can be spared with Ralsei's magic, Pacify. Enemies become tiredwhen they're on low HP, or when certain ACTs are used against them.

When Chapter 1 of Deltarune released, I thought this spell was extremely interesting, because it effectively gave us a way to spare people who didn't want to listen to reason. It made sense to me that making a story where everyone can be befriended is, perhaps, limiting, and so this spell was here to open a bit of narrative freedom and have characters who cannot, while still letting us show mercy regardless. In Chapter 1, this is how Pacify is used- It is the only method we can use to spare Jevil, and in a non-pacifist run, it's the way we beat king.

But then it kind of just... stopped being used in this way. Starting in Chapter 2, ACTs that enable Tired, or enemies that are already Tired, began appearing, and Pacify kind of fades away into being a mechanic first and foremost rather than a narrative device.

But... I don't think that's the truth. Pacify is still strangely relevant narratively, and after my Rude Buster analysis, I'm inclined to read more into the spell's existence and its potential importance to the larger narrative. For starters, in Chapter 1, Ralsei explains the existence of this spell to Susie:

Which is framed mostly as a joke and a warning to use the Warn action against enemies.

But... it's not a joke. In what is, personally, my favorite little piece of Susie characterization in the entire game, if you didn't spare everyone in Chapter 1, then the King fight ends differently. There is no crowd of people to sweep King away- instead, Susie distracts him, and Ralsei casts Pacify, leading to this exchange:

This exchange always stuck in my head, because it demonstrates that Susie pays more attention than we might think, and remembered the earlier conversation about Pacify. At the time, I thought this might be it, that this was just a neat way of Toby showing that Susie listens.

But the fact that Susie remembers this spell comes up again, in Chapter 4. Against the Sound of Justice.

This is, of course, does not end up happening- Ralsei comes in, and defeats the Sound of Justice, which was just a statue and not the actual Old Man.

But this instance really got me thinking. Maybe I'm just thinking about things too much, but it strikes me as important that, yet again, the fact that we can use Pacify to spare foes who are unwilling to listen to reason is a thing.

And so, I get back to my ultimate point: Why is this spell even in this game?

So far, we've yet to truly be in a situation that feels like it absolutely REQUIRES Pacify to work narratively, and in general it rarely comes up. Even in regular combat, it seems most players forget about this spell. Evidently enough, the game feels the need to remind you that this spell exists in chapter 4??

(Seriously, Toby. Were the playtesters that bad?? We know what Pacify does...)

Evidently, Pacify is pretty niche as a mechanic. It does add mechanical nuance to sparing enemies, and I really appreciate it, but... I find it hard to believe that its mechanical implications are the reason it's here.

So far, there have only been 2 characters who we need to Pacify in certain contexts. And really, only one of those is "real" to me, because I fully think there could've been some other way King was defeated. And even with Jevil, that could've been an ACT.

So... I think there's something else. I think the fact that we have the ability to Spare people who Don't Want To Listen is important. It's brought up as an option in Chapter 4, it's emphasized in Chapter 1.

My personal bet right now is that Pacify is going to be used on someone later in the story. Someone we don't want to hurt, but who will not listen to reason. Like how Susie didn't want to hurt who she thought was the Old Man but clearly he was unwilling to talk. My bet? I think we're Pacifying The Knight at some point later in the story. The Knight is explicitly someone we cannot ACT against, but given who the Knight most likely is... we kinda don't want to actually hurt it. At least Kris wouldn't want to.

Also, it's fitting for Ralsei to be the one to finish the fight, because that gives him more agency in our quest against fate. It feels fitting to me, at least...

It's also maybe possible it's someone like Asgore, I guess, or maybe a SOUL-Shined Pacify could put a Titan to sleep or something, I'm not 100% all in on it being The Knight, but that makes the most sense to me. Regardless, I'm confident this spell is important. Time will tell if I'm right, I guess...

[sportsballdelight]

UT to DR character differences

I used one of them for an essay post I made recently [x], but decided to post them all individually as a handy reference.

Characters that show changes due to the passage of time

Characters that show changes but not age-related ones

Characters that just went through an outfit change

Characters that that that

Hopefully this can be of use to someone lol.

[the-unrelated-theorist]

Additional notes:

MK *might* not be the same. The spikes are on the other side of their head. Since spikes are usually made of bone, it's unlikely they are styled differently (although it's possible they may have move around as MK grew). Some theorize it may be MK's sister that they talked about. Until we see MK and their sister together in either game, it's impossible to be certain.

Temmie might be Shopkeeper Temmie, since she's still studying for college, but she no longer wears a striped shirt.

Instead of Jerry, we have Terry, who looks completely different and is teased rather than avoided. Very different appearance, you can actually tell where their eyes are. Terry has hair, while Jerry was bald except for 3 spikes. Jerry doesn't have an overworld sprite, so we don't know if they're the same color or not.

[cube-cumb3r]

i still have a hard time making sense of "friend" in deltarune. I've been sent The Doc and I've read it and there are clearly a lot of friend and friend-esque appearances, and that friend also has a lot of connections to other mysterious phenomena, like egg man or cat petterz and so on, but like. what does it mean. is this something that's meant to be resolved eventually or is this just a mysterious freak phenomenon.

and i don't know. i feel like despite the many appearances, it's hard to pin down what their role in the story or the world is, what their nature is. i can't say anything about friend, im afraid.

what i say something about though, is cat petterz. or specifically, Cat petterz the rpg. both of which have a lot of connections to friend. there's one primary thing we know about Cat petterz the rpg, and that is that it is, in noelles own words, a ripoff of dragon blazers. now, Dragon blazers, as we've learnt in chapter 4, is based on Lord of the hammer, which in turn is based on the Prophecy. in other words, "Cat petterz the rpg" is a copy of a copy of a copy.

i also have something to say about the Mike room. a lot of mike enthusiasts on twitter have been trying to convince me that none of the mikes (mic jpg included) weve been presented with are supposed to be the real mike, but there IS a real mike out there, somewhere, and he's also friend. I'm not entirely sold on this, but the nature of the "mikes" and the mike room is interesting. firstly, it's been pointed out that the real world object equivalent of the mike room is likely the Cat petterz rpg game that is hidden in kris' room. hence why the heavy cat-petting featured in that section, and why the minigames from Cat petterz the rpg is featured in mike's battle and room. another interesting aspects of the Mike's themselves is the idea of "where did the idea of mike come from?". the mikes are copying an idea without ever having seen an original. they're acting in accordance to Tenna's expectation of what mike is, which has come about from the mikes mimicking who they think mike is. which i think is similar in phenomenon enough to the copy of a copy nature of cat petterz the rpg that i felt it was worth mentioning.

another friend-esque figure is obviously spamton, namely because of the pink-yellow glasses. he's also been in contact with a mysterious unknown figure on the phone, and just by nature of it being a mystery, there's even more reason to suspect friends afoot. there's a lot to say about spamton and lots of theories to be made about what happened to him but there's one quirk of spamton i want to bring up. there's two instances of spamton deliberately copying the appearance and/or mannerisms of another character. firstly, he's copied swatch's look as part of a scheme to sneak into the mansion basement, but secondly, of course, tenna. not only has he copied musical motifs, liberally borrowing entire phrases and his manners of speaking, and at one point dressed like him. in some sense, he is, or at least was, a "knock-off" tenna. though interestingly enough, tenna wants what spamton has, whatever that is. tenna was trying to fopy spamton back.

quickly i want to mention too in the mantle minigames, the controller you use is pink and yellow and described as a "knock-off" controller. friend makes an appearance too in the mantle battle. (also, worth mentioning, many of the locations match descriptions of dragon blazers locations described by noelle on her blog in sweepstakes. on the topic of dragon blazers and cat petterz)

one last mention is egg man, who is the last on the list of mysterious figures with connections to friend, though the connections are not very strong in my opinion, nor has there been that much to say about egg man up until chapter 3. previous eggs have been very unceremonious to find, meanwhile in chapter 3 it requires an entire sidequest. as a reward, you get to enter a 8-bit-esque section featuring lost rudinns before you get to meet the man himself. one of the rudinns say the bombshell extremely interesting line of "copies are monochrome, but you colored each of us in with care." now by copies are monochrome, in a literal sense this rudinn probably means kris photocopied ace of diamonds cards and printed them with a printer that couldn't print in color. but in a greater context, it's hard to not think of goners, which are gray and often resemble other regular monsters. and it's hard to not think that this lead-up is saying something about this egg man, this "forgotten" man.

i haven't said much about friend itself, because i can't figure friend out. but what i can say that each phenomenon which people much smarter than me have concluded is connected to friend in some way, there seems to often be some sort of copying or knock-offery going on. so the only thing i feel confident concluding is that there's some connection between friend and the idea of copying and knock-offs.

[brixbraxium]

WER-ERAMB: The Relevance of the Sword Route

This is a theory that, previously, I felt very iffy on, but have come to believe more firmly over time. I'd like to thank my friend @mr---person for assisting with theorycrafting this and coming up with parts of this. In order to get to the actual idea being proposed here, I have to get some context out of the way first, so without further ado, let's begin. This is a bit of a long one, but I think it's well worth it.

PHASE 1: The Sword Route matters

I'm going to start by establishing that the Sword Route is, for whatever reason, important. You know, the route is weird. When I first learned it was called the "Sword Route", I was kind of put off by it. I felt like the name didn't make much sense. It's more of a sidequest if anything, right? The main thing I am going to try and establish here is that the Sword Route is more than just an ominous foreshadowing side quest that results in us getting the Shadow Mantle- which is optional armor that merely makes certain fights easier. See, the more I think about it, the more clear it becomes to me that it is actually that important. For starters- the name itself. It is called a Route. This alone is kind of significance. It's not the mantlequest, it's not the sword quest, it's not S Rank Progress or anything, it's... the Sword Route.

Further, after defeating the Mantleholder ("ERAM" as I will refer to them for the rest of this post for brevity), they declare "We both have work to do!" which somewhat insinuates that we will meet again. There's also the /chapter5 stuff:

We cannot be absolutely certain, but it does seem that the size of the numbers indicate something akin to "Weird Route prominence". The 2 is massive because the Weird Route exists. The 4 is pretty small because ultimately the Weird Route only changes like, two scenes significantly. The 5 is larger, implying the Weird Route will cause more changes there.

What's fascinating, then, is that the 3 is as big as the 2. Given that the sound effect for clicking on the 3 is the sound that Eram makes, and the "Not applicable, but..." text from /chapter3, it seems to me that the reason the 3 is so big is because of the Sword Route. If you ask me, the Sword Route on its own kind of doesn't even get close to Ch2's variations. Sure, it's something that affects the entire playthrough of the chapter, but, like, it doesn't really affect the main story at all, and seems pretty self contained on the surface. It's also not even part of the Weird Route, nor the Crystal Path, strictly speaking... and yet, it's as big as the 2, which is... fascinating.

I think, though, the biggest slam dunk for the Sword Route being "Important" is, of all places, found in Jackenstein's fight.

See, one of the boards used for Jackenstein's attacks is this:

Those who have come before me have pointed out that the symbols in the background can be interpretted as symbols of key things in DELTARUNE. There are two crowns, one of which highly resembles the chess symbol for a queen, there's a chess knight, a tower of some sort, a flower, and a dagger/sword.

King, Queen, Knight, Tower (Titan), Flower (Asgore? Flower King?).

Some have interpreted the Sword has a symbol for Chapter 6, but I don't actually think that's accurate.

A more niche interpretation of this is that it's actually a map.

You start on the King crown. You can either pass through the Queen (the Purple line) or skip the Queen (the Cyan line).

You can optionally touch the Sword on the way to The Knight. But, no matter what, you must pass the Knight, then the Tower, then the Flower, then collect the key.

If you don't allow line intersections, then the Sword also must come before The Knight. (You can of course go right and then down from The Knight, but this would require you to double back.)

When you recall that you actually skip Queen entirely on the Weird Route, I actually feel very confident in this interpretation. You can skip Queen, but you can't skip King, Knight, Titan, or the Ch5 boss.

I think, then, that the meaning of the sword is obvious- it's the Sword Route. You can optionally collect the Sword on the way to The Knight.

To me, the fact that the Sword Route is represented at all in this sort of symbolic representation of the game's general mapping is kind of massive. This, if nothing else, has me absolutely convinced The Sword Route does deserve its name, even if we cannot understand fully what is significant about it.

So, now that we can be pretty confident the Sword Route matters, I think we should start looking into everything we know about it in order to try and predict where it's going next.

PHASE 2: ERAM

This is going to be a re-treading of my prior remarks on Eram.

If you've already read my previous post about that, you can skip this section without issue. I actually go into more detail in that post, but I'm going to summarize my thoughts here. If you find this analysis interesting, please go check out that post, too.

Basically: I think the Eram fight is "about" the Kris/Player dynamic.

ERAM is able to do actual, real damage to Kris. They physically recoil whenever it happens. If Kris were trying to beat ERAM alone, they would surely fail, especially if they only had one try. One single hit would likely snowball into several more, and trying to perform well while actively being shocked would be effectively impossible. And, ultimately, barring potential Kris SAVE File shenanigans, one death is all Kris has- Eram kills you for real.

This is where the Player comes in- we are able to focus entirely on the game itself, learning the fight, issuing commands to Kris.

We, too, could not beat this fight alone- On some level, we need Kris to even play the game to begin with- While we are able to control HERO_SWORD outside of the game, it is ultimately Kris who (of their own accord!) plugs the Oddcontroller in for us, and we see with the Shelter that Kris is able to control HERO_SWORD somewhat- I don't think Kris could just set the controller down.

Ultimately, both parties need to lock in. Kris needs to lock in and push through the pain even though it hurts to execute the commands we're giving them, and we need to focus on the fight itself and funnel our inputs through Kris to attack the enemy.

This, then, is why Eram remarks about the burning red flames in Kris' eyes, because the only way we beat them is by working together.

Basically, I think the fight is about The Player and Kris. The fact that Kris is an autonomous person who has their own ideas and goals is, sometimes, a hindrance, and gets in our way when they do their own thing- but, at the same time, it can be a strength, as our ability to directly command our vessel seems rather limited. It's Kris who is able to plug in the oddcontroller, for instance. We can't actually direct Kris to use items in that way directly.

With this general interpretation of the Eram fight established, I'm going to take a further moment to look into the other character relevant for the Sword Route, who I think we tend to overlook: Ramb.

PHASE 3: RAMB ANALYSIS

Ramb, Ramb, Ramb... There's a lot we could say about Ramb, but I'll try to keep it brief and focused on what we're actually interested in today.

It's been suggested at times that Eram and Ramb are one and the same. I don't think this is the case.

The thing is...Ramb doesn't know, like, anything. To me, that's kind of what defines him. He talks big game, he talks about Freedom and Big Shots and about how the Original Game is everything Kris dreams of, and yet... he doesn't really seem to be connected to the deeper mysteries. He doesn't have a Shadow Crystal, and while he talks big game about freedom, unlike with, say, Spamton, we don't really get the impression Ramb knows specifically what Kris is dealing with. Ramb makes a big point of saying how he wants what's best for Kris, and that Kris will love the original game more... but is that even true?

Kris... doesn't exactly seem super enthused by the game. They look pale at times, especially when we kill the HERO_AXE and HERO_SCARF, and they kind of almost die to Eram. Ramb also talks big game about how the Original Game has real freedom, and isn't just a linear quest from A to B... except, if anything, MANTLE is actually more linear than The Legend of Tenna. Both games have explicit, defined objectives- in MANTLE, it's to GET STRONGER and kill every enemy to eventually obtain the item at the end. In TLOT, it's to collect the various items around the map to eventually get to the Physical Challenge.

The thing is, The Legend of Tenna actually does give you choice. There's always more objectives than are necessary. You only need 3 keys, but there are actually 4 (5 on replays!). You only need 3 pictures, but there are 4 you can get. You can choose which ones to get. Comparatively, in MANTLE, you simply have to defeat every enemy. The only meaningful choice that Mantle provides you is that you can choose to die and stop playing.

This is, perhaps, a larger discussion, but my point is that Ramb is kind of just... wrong, about the original game being more free. And even if he was correct, Kris doesn't seem to be enjoying it that much.

I do actually think Kris wants to keep playing, but it's not because the game itself is Fun, but rather because Kris is searching for the Crystals and likely believes that this may lead to one. (There's more I could say on this but I don't have the time to.)

It's also quite clear I think that Ramb doesn't know anything about what's really going on backstage.

For starters, there's no reason to believe Ramb gave Kris the OddController. Surely he would have taken credit for giving it to us, since he prides himself on doing what's best for Kris. Also, he was keeping watch for Tenna.

Further, after Board 2, he denies anyone else being Backstage, and seems confused when Kris asks:

Which, sure, could be him lying, but I really don't think he is.

In general, while Ramb does want to help Kris, I think it's quite clear he doesn't really understand the greater ramifications of what Kris is dealing with. I really don't think Ramb knows what the Shadow Crystals are, and I really can't see him being, say, Eram in secret. Eram seems way too knowledgeable in a way Ramb simply isn't.

What is perhaps the most interesting about Ramb, though, is what happens to him at the end of the route. For the third Board, Ramb is almost fully petrified.

He asks us to push him out of the way because he can't move, and we carry on. This is actually really emphasized. There's like a whole animation of him being pushed and everything.

Toby could have just had him already be in position for us to walk past, or something, but, no, he's in the way and must be pushed.

What is fascinating, then, is that... he's not there anymore when we're done.

He's just gone. No trace. This is never explained. There is only one piece of information we are given, and I want to spend some time specifically on this point, because it's very important.

PHASE 4: WTF HAPPENED TO RAMB???

No, seriously, what? He's just gone. In the normal route, he's petrified in his little booth, but, in the Sword Route, he just entirely disappears.

The only piece of information we're given is from this Rabbick NPC in the backstage area:

This Rabbick claims to have seen something relating to Ramb, but gets sidetracked by Kris' appearance, questioning that they just went past.

I have seen many interpretations of this line, with some people suggesting that HERO_SWORD killed Ramb as they left. This is a bit questionable, since surely the Rabbick would be terrified of Kris if they just saw "Kris" kill Ramb, but, there's something much more important here I seldom see talked about.

How did this Rabbick even see anything?

I don't have a good map of the area, so forgive me for the bad quality here, but, remember:

Ramb is a statue over at the X. The Rabbick is out in the hall.

How did this Rabbick see anything relating to Ramb?

They're in different rooms. There's like, 2 corners between them, and a closed door, and the Rabbick is down the hall. How did they see something relating to Ramb, especially when it is explicitly told (and shown) to us that Ramb actively cannot move.

I think the implication simply has to be that he was taken. He was kidnapped. Something moved him. There's really no other way to slice it. The question is... why? Who would do this?

This is where we leave the realm of grounded speculation and have to "live a little" so to speak. I might lose you here, but please, hear me out.

PHASE 5: THE ERAMB AGENDA

I am going to propose the following:

Eram is, on some level, some sort of spirit that requires a host

It was originally using the Shadow Mantle as its host when we find it in Chapter 3.

After we defeat Eram, it needs a new vessel.

It chooses Ramb as its new target, stealing him in the process. Eramb.

This is generally unsubstantiated, but I think it actually makes a lot of sense.

For starters: The Eram boss we fight is purely referred to as "Shadow Mantle" in the game. Not, like, MantleHolder, they're just Shadow Mantle. It's arguable how much we should read into this, but given that the speaker says they're "holding" the mantle, a direct interpretation of the mantle itself being alive feels weird. However, if we're saying the Mantle is being puppeteered or otherwise controlled, this makes more sense.

Secondly: Why is Ramb a plugboy? It's a strange design choice. I suppose it's relevant to his backstory of specifically not being a typical toy, but it's a bit of an oddity. Werewires/plugboys have the recurring theme of being controlled, which feels perfect for this kind of narrative.

It could just be nothing, but it feels fascinating to me that Ramb is specifically a species known for having a second, stronger transformation they can be turned into when controlled by something else.

Thematically, I think this also has a lot of potential as well. If we were to do battle with this were-Eramb form as a 1v1, then Eramb kind of functions as a parallel to Kris.

Kris and The Player vs Ramb and Eram.

The difference being, of course, that at this point so late in the story, Kris and The Player will likely be allies, whereas Ramb is the biggest Kris fan of all time and would do anything in his power to resist and help them. If you buy into the Eram analysis from earlier, this is a direct extension of what the Eram fight was already doing in my eyes.

In a sense, Eramb I think would be a 'dark' reflection of what we could do with Kris, forcing them to act against their will- the sort of thing we actually do do in the Weird Route.

Additionally, consider that Ramb would almost certainly be using Electric Attacks in this form.

And, well, wouldn't you know it, but there's an unused armor called the Sky Mantle that provides resistance to Elec/Holy attacks:

It's stats are kind of... abysmal, but 50% resist to Elec would probably be worth it in a fight like this, especially a 1v1 with Kris. Plus, who knows, if it does get used, it could easily be rebalanced. It feels fitting to me to use another elemental mantle against Eram when it was our defeat of Eram that provided us with the Shadow Mantle to begin with.

Overall, I think the idea of Eram using Ramb as a vessel for a rematch later on is fitting enough thematically and Could work...

PHASE 5.5: MANOR SIDE THOUGHT

I simply must continue my Holiday Manor Chapter 6 Agenda, and point out that Eram's "Secret Hiding Place" is specifically within the Ice Palace. It could make sense, then, that we cross paths with Eram once more in Chapter 6 if the Manor Dark World conspiracy pans out....

PHASE 6: THE TRUTHNUKE

I was already well aware of the Wer-Eramb agenda before, but I didn't consider it that likely. It was a fun idea, and while I hadn't heard the player specific arguments before, it felt like it was missing something.

But, you see, I have come to a horrifying realization. A realization that makes me unreasonably confident that it's happening. Maybe it's nothing, maybe I'm reading into things too much, but this final detail is the one that made me convinced I absolutely had to make this into a longer post.

The Freedom Motif.

It's in Jevil's, Spamton's, and Gerson's music. This makes sense. Further, for every battle with the Freedom Motif, the flavor text "The air crackles with freedom", or some variation, is part of the fight.

It is worth noting that The Knight lacks both the Freedom Motif and this flavor text, suggesting the two are indeed linked. It's not just cute phrasing- they're connected, or perhaps even somehow the same.

There is another instance of this sort of language being used, and it's with the Sound of Justice, the strange Gerson statue we do battle with in the Second Sanctuary.

This time, it's "The air crackles with sound". This makes sense, since the Sound of Justice is directly connected to Gerson, who is a secret boss, but the Sound of Justice itself is not a secret boss.

But...

Wouldn't you know it?

There is one other instance in this game of the game saying the air crackles with something.

And, of all places... it's when you use Susie's ACT against Werewerewire.

Look.

I was aware that this existed for a long time now.

But I always wrote it off as a coincidence. But when you consider it in the context of Eramb, it feels to me like a slam dunk. You can argue that this isn't actually flavor text, per se, but rather narration describing the effects of an ACT- but honestly, I don't care. This, to me, is the nail in the coffin, a detail hidden in plain sight.

And when you actually look into Werewerewire more... You start to see something else.

Werewerewire specifically is a Werewire that has absorbed the wire- fused with that which controls it- to become stronger.

It. Became. Stronger.

And, regular Werewire's check, too, how is that described?

It's sleepwalking through a nightmare. "Nightmare" is used in relation to certain assets relating to the mantle fight, and while this may just be a reference to the Links Awakening fight of comparable nature and name, "ERAM" itself is just "MARE" backwards. I think a connection between Nightmares and Eram is pretty solid.

CONCLUSION

Look. I'm sorry. I've seen the light. It's just happening. I can't un-see it. You can say that this isn't that strong of a connection, you can say it's a coincidence, but...

The way the Sword Route itself is clearly more important than we might think?

The way Ramb just completely disappears, with the circumstances being specific enough to where we can be reasonably certain he was taken?

The fact that Ramb is specifically a darkner type known for being controlled by other things?

The fact that the ultimate form of said Darkner literally references the air crackles with freedom, and has SWORD-Route/Weird-Route style language?

The fact that doing this would perfectly follow up what, in my eyes, the overall thematic purpose of the Eram fight is?

I see the light. I think it's happening.

The Rombhack is real.

Beware the Wer-eramb.

[brixbraxium]

Imagine being Father Alvin,

And you open up the church on a nice sunday morning, only to find:

It has been completely thrashed. Like completely wrecked. Completely destroyed.

So you go to your office to like sort things out and figure out what you're doing about this or to get some cleaning supplies or something and:

Your desk has been opened. Someone took out your Father's Hammer (which NOBODY is supposed to know you have!!!) and placed it on the desk, then WROTE A NOTE next to it, claiming:

Alvin Your old man was proud of you. The reason he didnt come to church alot is beacause he wanted you to follow your dream. Hes sorry he never said that right. So write your own story's. Its okay if even if there not perfect. Sinserely a friend

????

Who wrote this??? Was it the same person who completely thrashed the main room???

If they are, why do they call themselves a friend????

No, seriously, WHO wrote this? Who knew Gerson closely enough to claim to know his true intentions? How can they know his regrets?

Why is the handwriting and spelling so bad???

Why NOW?!?!?!

Seriously, I don't think we talk about this enough. What is he going to think. This is going to be the funniest thing in the entire chapter.

[fallencalf]

Carol Holiday is autistic (probably)

I’ve seen this headcanon/reading of her before, but, I haven’t seen any posts doing an analysis of that. So, I’ve decided to do that myself. For this post, I’m going to talk about symptoms of autism mentioned in diagnostic criteria and how Carol fits into it. Long post ahead.

Persistent deficits in social communication and social interaction across multiple contexts.

Carol struggles a lot socially. One of her workers describes her as quite literally having “negative charisma.”

Carol comes off as rude or cold, and from this dialogue we can tell that this isn’t something that just happens with the characters we’ve seen interact with her. Carol seems also to struggle with empathizing with others— she can’t place herself in the shoes of Noelle, and because of this, her assumptions of what is the best for her is often inaccurate. (Yes, being autistic can cause you to have low empathy— it can also cause high empathy. It’s a spectrum. Low empathy doesn’t make you a bad person and it’s not demonizing to talk about unpalatable autism symptoms.)

Autism can also effect general abilities to healthily manage relationships- and we see how strained her relationship with almost everyone around her. This includes her toxic behavior towards her daughters. Carol being autistic would not excuse abusive behavior— nor does being autistic inherently cause that, but, it can play into that. I believe she also has some sort of strained relationship with Rudy. She wasn’t sleeping in the same bed with Rudy before he went to the hospital.

Restricted, repetitive patterns of behavior, interests, or activities.

Carol has a lot of insistence on sameness and heavily dislikes change— which is a way this symptom can present. She bronzes the snowflakes that Noelle & Dess makes, for example, as a way to perserve them.

Carol’s interest in Christmas is also massive to the point of where it seems obsessive. She insists on having the entire house Christmas themed to an extent, and has the people in her family behave in line with the Christmas theme. All of the doors in the house have the same christmas garland on top.

I also feel like Carol’s design indicates her being very restrictive. Carol stands in a way that’s extremely stiff and restrictive feeling. Her entire design is sharp edges.

Hyper - or hyporeactivity to sensory input or unusual interests in sensory aspects of the environment.

Carol keeps the house cold at all times and she herself is physically cold— this ties into her special interest in Christmas, but also, shows she may have a sensory fixation on cold things. It may cause sensory issues for her to not be cold.

Carol also uses a katana for cutting instead of normal knives because she thinks that normal knives aren’t sharp enough. I’m autistic myself and, I experience something similar. I can’t use “normal” pencils unless I’m constantly sharpening them because if they aren’t sharp enough, it gives me sensory issues. So I only use mechanical pencils or pens.

I also think that Carol’s collection of the Santa dolls and heart shaped objects can be a way her autism presents. How autism effects sensory inputs can sometimes cause people to have an intense fixation on a certain kind of object, if they like the sensory input they get from it. The santa dolls all make the same noise, stop making sound the same way, etc. The santa dolls would also tie into her Christmas special interest. With the heart shaped objects, they could give her a sensory input that she enjoys in some way which leads her to collecting it obsessively. This symptom of hers relates to the repetitive behaviors I just talked about as well.

General thoughts on how Carol as an autistic woman is important to her character

I think this helps contextualize her character in a way that’s interesting. Given how obvious a lot of symptoms of hers are to me, yet her being very conformist in mindset, I think that maybe her workaholic attitude could be a way that she tries to make up for her autism. When characters talk about why they like Carol as a mayor, they’ll often talk about Carol having a poor demeanor and finding her sensory needs to be strange or an issue— but they excuse this because she “works hard.” I think Carol defines a lot of her worth based on her work as a way to “fit back in,” even when it doesn’t seem to make her very happy.

I also think it’s why she generally gets angry at characters who break the norm at all. She’s been forcing herself into boxes for a while now, and if it was good or safe for people to break out of it, then what did she hurt herself for? Carol can’t let it of been for nothing. She tries to make her daughters conform, because she knows that “weird” (aka anything indicative of autism) behaviors will potentially have them shunned. Carol thinks it’s protecting them to restrict them because she restricts herself. It’s all she’s ever known, really.

[thesnoringknight]

Pre-CH5 Assorted Predictions

(I don't feel like doing a whole bingo card! But, I also want to post these for bragging rights or eternal shame. I may edit this post from time to time, up until CH5 actually releases.)

Chapter 5:

Burning the vast garden will actually be a good thing.

There's going to be a new character that looks weirdly like Gaster.

NormalNPC (the library bird) will, somehow, get even creepier.

We're going to be properly introduced to some new mystery and realize that there were vast quantities of foreshadowing about it we never could have picked up on.

Kris will further the dog allegations. Confirmed by the preview text, more or less, so...

No Asgore fight, because 'flower man trapped in asylum' is a perfect description of any of the flowers Asgore keeps in bell jars. (I actually want an Asgore refight.)

Enough Dess Knight evidence to almost definitively prove it, but little enough we can all still argue for years.

Good gosh, we're probably going to have to deal with seven flowers that Asgore trauma dumps on daily.

The actual theme of the chapter is going to be far more conspiracy/mystery oriented than people are expecting, and it's almost going to feel like it came out of left field.

Woody will become real, but be almost nothing like anyone expects, because Woody Theory basically just describes Spamton.

Not my prediction and I don't remember who made it (sorry, original prediction maker), but I buy in to Jockington cotton candy stick theory.

The festival will happen toward the end of the chapter. It's more Halloween flavored than anything else, considering Jackenstein is a decoration for it.

Carol's just a freak that puts up Christmas decorations in October.

General:

The Knight will turn out to not, actually, be the main villain of the game. (Knights generally exist in service to something and the parallels between Kris and the Knight imply that it, too, might have something influencing its behavior.)

The clues that Kris has very complicated feelings around Asriel that have been building since Chapter 3 will absolutely culminate in a reveal that either Asriel blames Kris for Dess disappearing, or they simply feel like he does.

Either way, their sibling relationship is rocky at best. It's genuinely uncertain whether Kris likes Asriel.

The UNUSED text will turn out to not be Dess.

The Holidays' mansion will be the final Dark World of the game, potentially during (or even after) the Roaring.

The game we're playing is a fix-it fic of the original way things might have gone. If Noelle was in the party, everything would be much, much worse. How would she fight a Titan? How much would having a character who's just better at everything Ralsei does by default worsen his insecurities?

The shelter code collection quest will be another broken pattern. When it's the right time to go in, Kris will enter the codes on their own.

[thesnoringknight]

METANARRATIVE LIGHTNING ROUND / What's up with (X)

Either this is going to be nothing, or it's just going to be the SparkNotes for a massive chunk of the story.

Gaster is trying to stop the inevitable collapse of the narrative, also known as The Roaring. To this end, he's modified and altered the game. DEVICE_FRIEND is a relic of a previous attempt at this, perhaps even a prototypical version of Ralsei, which is why it's tied to Kris, Noelle, and Susie. It's also the archetypical secret boss from which all others extend; something discarded, forgotten, and unwanted, with weird meta-ties, pink and yellow, etc.

The current attempt was intended to use the player (you!), a version of Kris's SOUL from after the end (very likely gained through their agreement), and a grey, copy-and-pasted vessel to build a substitute cage with human soul and parts that could fulfill the role.

However, it was stopped by an unknown entity (possibly Friend, possibly Dess / The Knight, possibly even Ralsei) leading to a case in which that SOUL simply reset via normal means, leaving Kris in a state where they have one, otherwise normal human SOUL in a mixed state of belonging to them and you.

This happened outside of space and time, by the way, after the ending and before the beginning, hence why Kris knows so damn much about the SOUL already.

It's very possible that we made (and will make) Kris do something earlier in the narrative, something necessary and potentially traumatizing that we don't know about which leads to later mistrust.

[thesnoringknight]

That's it. You know what? I'm announcing my vendetta.

Every reasonable theory I've got about W.D. Gaster can't account for the suspiciously device shaped FRIEND in the corner.

Every reasonable theory I've got about DEVICE_FRIEND can't account for why it has a connection to Gaster.

Fuck this stupid cat and this stupid skeleton. There's got to be a third part to the puzzle that makes this all make some degree of sense. Maybe Gaster is nice and Friend is literally just silly and ERAM is a third party. Maybe the way Gaster's words drip with sincere sentimentality every time he speaks is fake. Maybe Gaster got all Halloween Hack Andonuts'd up. I don't know. Put me with the flower man

[thesnoringknight]

My vendetta is over

The missing piece is remembering things don't have to be linear.

The tail of hell, which must not be followed, guides the children.

Friend is connected to the secret bosses.

Being discarded and abandoned is the common theme of the secret bosses, yes, even, especially Gerson, as Alvin rejected his ability to continue his work / legacy.

FRIEND was, if you take the name, presumably created by Gaster to be a FRIEND for the party (see: its connections to Kris, Noelle, and Susie).

FRIEND, if you assume it to be Spamton / Jevil's benefactor, which I think is reasonable to infer from Chapter 3 and it being everywhere, has knowledge of the future.

FRIEND's eyes are the two colors the text for a monster you can SPARE can be.

FRIEND has an unclear, shadowed appearance.

FRIEND is sometimes a chair.

FRIEND keeps smiling, no matter what.

FRIEND is always at your humble service.

I think FRIEND could be a failed and abandoned prototype of Ralsei.

We already know Gaster's tried to change one character in the narrative before.

[abandoned-quiche]

caller toriel is a surprisingly sound theory for one that doesn't really do anything for the story and is obviously untrue

[abandoned-quiche]

CALLER TORIEL THEORY

toriel is in general strongly associated with phones - she is the one who gives you the phone in undertale, she calls you many times in that game, and in deltarune she calls you too, in the very first chapter, as well as calling the cops later on, to establish this connection to phones for new fans.

she calls the cops in chapter 2 to lure undyne into the dark world. that's why she doesn't worry about kris and susie in chapter 4 even though her tires were slashed last night - she knows that kris was the one who slashed the tires, so she knows nobody's in danger.

she is also the only person in kris' contacts, even though they would surely be in contact with the caller.

the caller also uses scary red text - and we know that toriel is capable of the scary red text technique because she uses it when the calls the cops.

[glowstickspinalfluid]

heyheyheyhey wait

does this imply breaking the prophesy will directly trigger the final tragedy?? am i going insane?? the final tragedy unveils WHEN hope is lost for the tale. maybe it's inevitable that eventually there will seem to be no way forward and that's when a solution that requires great pain and loss to work will be revealed, but that doesn't get rid of the possibility of the final tragedy being triggered earlier than that due to hope being lost for some reason that's not in the prophesy. so.