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transcript of an interview member of the ntbts facebook group David Morris did with matt johnson in summer 2016 (images posted by david morris to the fb group in 2017). there are a fair few typos and things but overall a lot of really interesting stuff is said in this

full text transcript of the images below the cut because the images are pretty tough to read but i figured i still ought to include them

DD: What are the most important and necessary things for yourself to make a film in Toronto?

MJ: I think that question would change depending on who you would ask. Obviously, I'm making movies with my friends in such a way that we try to change the form to fit the limitations that I'm sure you will be talking to everybody about. Everybody knows the limitations: that you have no money and there is no star system so you find a way to make an independent tim without either of those things. So for us, we try to use those limitations of having no money and no star system - as best as we can. So obviously with The Dirties we tried to take the aesthetic of having no money and turn that into a real formal framing device. With Operation Avalanche it was the exact same. We think that by, me and the whole team and the house, we are all trying to embrace that like very DIY, like filmmaker driven model within the story itself. So the character of Matt in both Operation Avalanche and The Dirties and even to some extent Nirvana: The Band is creating the very thing that you're watching, and so because of that we're hoping that audiences forgive the massive formal restrictions that we're putting on it. So that was our way of overcoming having no money. I think that when you get into into[sic] trouble. I think the Canadian films that fail and fail massively are the ones that try to make movies despite those limitations. So they're like, 'Okay so we don't have 50 million dollars but we're still going make the 50 million dollar movie but we're just going to do it with 10 million dollars and Canadian stars and we're going to try our best." And that kind of imitation I don't think it has ever worked. I've never ever seen it done effectively. Now this is becoming a whole political conversation. But I think that that is the one of the big problems of the Canadian system which it is suffering from right now. It's that the funding bodies in this country are kind of trapped in that loop of not embracing the realities of being a Toronto filmmaker or Canadian filmmaker right now. Because I don't think the challenges that we face in Toronto are any different from those faced in Vancouver, Calgary or small town Thunder Bay, It's basically the same situation. And it's that trying to do it the way that you think our American heroes like Steven Spielberg would try to do it. You can't. It's not possible. You couldn't make a movie like they make in Hollywood here in Canada. So it's the people who are finding new formal approaches to cheap filmmaking who are the ones that are succeeding. You can talk to any of these guys. So like the MDFF people are the kings of that. They've turned the close-up into the big greatest cost saving technique of all time. They are able to create entire worlds just by using the close-up. You can say all kinds of things about the subjectivity of it and how it's creating a new experience for the audience's perspective. But really it's a massive cost saving device. You shoot an entire feature all in close-un then you don't have to show all the expensive shit that you normally have to. We use the same trick in Operation Avalanche. Half of that movie is done with the lens so close that you can't tell you're in the year 2015 because the lens is cutting everything out because it's a documentary. Andrew Cividino is the same way, although Dino to his credit is trying to exist in the same world of space as most Hollywood films. He does relatively standard coverage and relatively standard narrative stories. But he's just so good that he can pull it off.

DU: Your[sic] unique in this group of young Toronto filmmakers as you also star in your films as an actor and you work closely with your troupe that includes Jay McCarrol, Owen Williams and also other people from your crew. What do you think makes for a really good scene and how do you integrate your acting style with the other smaller roles and the extras? And in general what makes a really good scene?

SU: I think, well for us, a really good scene is when something goes wrong and the cameras keep rolling and we're able to still use it. So I can give you some examples. In The Dirties when Owen and are riding are[sic] bikes away and we just got Chrissy’s phone number and we're sort-of talking about how that's such a big deal and then I crash into that other bike and I just fall off my own bike. That kind of unexpected reality colliding with this very kind of wrote story I think to me is always the best kind of shit. In Operation Avalanche that scene where we're first shooting in the desert and Owen and I are running around and we’re trying to figure out how to make that fake moon landing look right. Like none of us know what we're going to say... But it's like when we mistakenly say the wrong thing or when we make mistakes or get one another to laugh without meaning to. That is always when things are at their best. That is when we get to human behavior. Like the really real human behaviour that we couldn’t plan for. Nirvana: The Band was just this like that wall-to-wall. Like basically every single edit was on some real experience that wasn't planned. But by the end we became so good at it that it was just expected. So when something strange didn't happen it was like we just couldn't use the footage. For me I don't know what would make a great dramatic scene. Basically like every single dramatic scene in one of our movies is essentially when me or Owen are not talking and looking at something and then the camera zooms in. That's the extent of our dramatic techniques. But for myself a really good compelling scene is when something goes wrong that we didn't intend and we figure out a way to then to use [sic] that. It’s when something from the real world or even from within the performances surprises us and we just roll with it. Or later with the editors like Curt Lobb would find a way to then use that. And the same goes for extras. Like our strategy typically is when we work with actors or anybody — we almost always work with non-actors — but our strategy is almost always to never tell them anything and to also never tell them that Matt and Owen, or Matt and Jay the case would be, are the stars. We don’t let them know that they are the people actually in this story. So that we can interact with those people in character and they won't know what to do. They’re just going to be themselves because they think they're just talking to another extra who is just there on the day and there's nothing to it. Sometimes we don't do this when we got to shoot something very specific. We try to as often as we can. Keep the people on the set in the dark. So that they don't know what's going to happen. So sometimes they do something that we won't expect…

But this is coming from someone who does not have a great talent for evoking performances from others. I'm not very good at that. It's not even something I think about it [sic] to be perfectly honest. What I try to do is to just be myself as best as I can in the moment with whoever it is I'm in the screen [sic] with. And wait for compelling things to happen and when they do to really hone in on them. And be like, ‘Yeah, okay that was it, that thing there, that was good’. And for myself to always try do something new or do something unexpected in the scene so whoever I’m with is always being kept off guard

DD: Can you tell me about your use of real-location guerilla-style filmmaking?

MJ: So 'il say this is the one great things about being a Canadian and shooting in Toronto. I would say we are all very blessed in this regard. And people aren't using it enough. And that's [sic] Toronto does not care where you shoot whether you shoot in the streets or if shoot [sic] in public buildings or if you shoot with public people or if you shoot with police officers. For example, the other day there was a fire on Queen street and we went there to shoot stuff with the firemen: me going up to them, asking them if they know who did it, running away, pretending that I was the one who had lit the fire. We shot like eleven takes of it with the whole tire department and talking to people, running around and talking to the cops. Nobody said a thing. They didn't think at all about it. Though maybe they thought that I was perhaps a bit screwy or that i was possibly brain dead. But there was nobody there who was saying that you cannot film this. That kind of American film savvyness[sic] of my location is worth money and my likeness is worth money. That just hasn't penetrated the Canadian city yet. You can very easily just go out in Toronto, which I think is unbelievably vibrant — which I would say has all of the life of a major American city — and yet it breeds none of the restrictions. So you can go out and shoot anything you want whenever you want. The Dirties we shot in Toronto high schools, and Operation Avalanche at universities and on the streets, everywhere... These are things that Toronto just has on the offer for young filmmakers. And it's allftcc. It's all free. You never need to get permits to shoot. That’s a total myth. Unless you are going to blow up a car and you need them to cooperate with you. But if you don't need their cooperation, just go and film whatever you want. This works very well for us because we shoot fake documentary style stuff and so it can be shot in such a way that you just get there and start shooting, get it and then leave. If you need to set up dolly tracks and lights and things like that then that probably won’t work as well but I believe it still could… It’s the best. I think Toronto is the best. From my limited experience of living in this country and of only ever living in Toronto. I wouldn't trade it for the world.

DD: Can you tell me about your team and your use of technological tools?

MJ: The team that we have here is not super savvy with new technology. I would say that Jared Raab is pretty good. The person who brings us most of these new techniques is Tristan Zerafa — he did all the VFX on the new X-Men movie and he's doing them on the new Harry Potter right now. He's the guy who introduces us to these things and we find a way to use these very powerful new technical tools to our style of filmmaking, which is more like documentary and hand-held. How can we combine these two things in a way that won't be obvious? We’re wiling[sic] to do anything because we’re somewhat recently out of film school. We're willing to do anything. Like Jared just taught himself how to do 3D rendering. It's the first time he's ever done that. We're willing to adopt anything as also most of that stuff is completely free or unbelievably cheap. What's really great about Toronto — getting back to my favorite city in the whole world - is that because Toronto is such a tax haven for American productions we wind up having all of these services right in the city. We have all of these 3D scanning houses and we have all of these amazing post-production bouses. We have some of the best post houses in the world. Alter Ego and Tattersall. Like these places... This is the best shit out anywhere. The reason we have it is because we get so much American work that filmmakers like me, Dino, Kazik can piggyback on them because those American productions are not here all of the time. And these sound editors and colorist[sic] don't necessarily love working on American television exclusively. Like it sucks. The work is brutal. Take someone like Conor Fisher who is our colorist. He works out of Alter Ego. He works on commercials and like big TV productions. Like huge money stuff. It's a dream then to be like the guy on a movie like ours where he's basically calling the shots and deciding on what things are going to look like. It's a great relationship that we can form with these massive institutions through individuals who are roughly the same age as us. Because they are just doing the same thing as us as all of these guys are just trying to do good work. We are providing each other with a great opportunity. That's the kind of thing where in New York or Los Angeles they would just be so jaded about. We're very lucky.

DD: What makes for a good story or what meaning do you want people to take from them?

MJ: I mean, I don't know. That's a bizarre question... For me, I’m trying to decode my own life with these movies. And be like what do I find interesting or repugnant about my own self. And the problems that I have personally and how can I sublimate those into struggles that these characters have in these movies. But like that's my own private meaning behind these films. I think in many ways most of these movis are about the construction of media and about the like lie of a movie. Like how every body is so willing to believe a lie of a movie and just how powerful and great that is. Why these movies or stories come together in such a way as they do is for a more commercial perspective. And that's like, and the whole group in the house feels this way, we are interested in making movies where the central engine or central idea is extremely simple. Like kids planning a school shooting as a joke. Or kids faking the moon landing as a joke. Or even Nirvana: The Band Iike two musicians trying to get a show at The Rivoli as a joke. And not knowing how serious those characters are about their personal journey. That you watch it and you see they are as serious as death even though they are joking. That it's a lot like what this house is anyways. We're all here working on this stuff so hard that it's seriously tough to figure out how we are even taking it here. All of us find that central idea very compelling. Like: Do you know if we're taking this seriously? As an audience, can you tell if we really mean what we're showing you or if the joke is on you? And I think that tension is so interesting because it's like as an audience you’re in a pranked situation.

DD: You work close with comedians and musicians. For example, the Born Ruffians are in Nirvana: The Band and Jay is in the comedy scene. Can you talk about this?

MJ: The Born Ruffians are good friends of mine. Jay more so is close to comedians and the reason is because he was the musical director of Second City. And so because of that connection we wound up close to some of them. Jay is best friends with the comedy scene. He knows these guys as he's worked with them for years and years. Like Reid Janisse is a comedian and he was in the original Nirvana: The Band and Kayla Lorette was also in the original show. I imagine now you are drawing a connection to Payan Moondi, who works exclusively with comedians…

Though I've never done comedy before in my life. I've never done stand-up before. No I'm not a comedian. I actually suck at stand up comedy. I'm so bad. If you saw me you would be humiliated. I'm very bad at that kind of stuff. Jay is better... If I ever said anything like it was probably, ‘We came from a background of trying to be funny.’ I’m very interested in that of [sic] trying to be funny interpersonally. And like Jay and are always trying to make each other laugh. When I was a kid I really wanted to be a comedian. Like that was my dream. I really wanted to be like Robin Williams. But that was when I was like eight or nine years old. And then I used to lie to people and tell them that I was going to do a stand-up comedy gig at The Rivoli when I was fourteen or fifteen years old. I don't know why I did that. I guess I just thought that was what made you famous or popular. I don't know why I thought that. And then my parents sent me to a Second City class downtown when I was in grade seven or eight. And thought that it was cool but then I never got to go back. That was my experience with comedy.

But I don't like working with comedians. Because comedians, so people who are funny on stage, I find often that transition into them working on camera sometimes doesn't quite fit. You never want to work with someone who's trying to be funny. You never want to act against someone who’s trying to be funny. Because as soon as the audience gets the sense that he's trying to be funny then it's over. You're dead. It has to come as a surprise otherwise it’s nauseating.

DD: Your recent Now Toronto interview before vou left to premiere Operation Avalanche is quite critical and controversial. How did you find it to be generally received?

MJ: Because I don't have a social media account people didn't talk to me about it directly at all. But my filmmaker friends were all really supportive of it. And it has led to this upcoming Breakfast at TIFF conversation on the topic and certainly people have been talking about those issues much more than they were before that time. I still stand by those things. And hopefully within my lifetime things can change. My big issue is that every single year 75% of Telefilm's funding goes to more or less the same kind-of cabal of old-school Canadian filmmakers.

And I know you're quite supportive of some of them. You're a Paul Gross fan or at least you pretend to be…

DD: I like Paul Gross as an actor and his most recent film Hyena Road. I also just found out that the Canadian Prime Minister John A. Macdonald, who you're planning to make a film about, initiated the Royal Canadian Mounted Police which Paul Gross in Due South is probably their most famous incarnation of. It's interesting too how you both are also actor-filmmakers.

MJ: I wonder if I can cast Gross in the John A. Macdonald film…

But returning to the previous topic. My problem is that the lion's share of Telefilm's funding should be used to develop new talent... Year after year for English language films 75% of funding on every level whether it is marketing, completion or production is always going to these same bizarre wannabe American movies. I can't wrap my head around why they would want to do that… For 28 million dollars for example vou could make 140 first features for 200 thousand dollars each. I really don't know why Telefilm wouldn't want to do that. I don't know what they’re getting out of making movies like this. Versus making movies like with women or minorities. You could fund films for the whole gamut of different Canadian societies. I’m struggling to try to answer that though I'm sure that they would be able to answer that question for me.

DD: You're known for you're[sic] really good work ethics and it doesn't look like you go out partying as much as some other filmmakers nor do you drink too much or smoke. Does that kind commitment contribute to your steady output?

MJ: That's a funny question. When we return home I'm mostly only looking at footage now. Editing is so hard for me to do these days. I used to be quite good at it but now all of the other guys that work here are so much better than me that I can't keep up with them to be perfectly honest. Curtis Lobb, the guy upstairs, is the main guy. He is the guy who makes all of this stuff work. But also Andy Oppelt[sic] who is another lead editor and so is Rob Hyland. I edited the original show and The Dirties. But after that, though I still do some editing, but it is not at all like how I used to. I think the seriousness that you're describing is mostly an illusion to be honest. I mean I created a life where I live in this house where everybody works all of the time. Like by nature I'm always going to be here. That doesn’t necessarily mean that I’m always going to be working like crazy or that I have anxiety about working. But like I've tried to set up a life where no matter what I am always close to it and it's not difficult for me to start. I’m always around this work, because it is my whole life and I love doing it more than anything else. And I would say that if you are serious about making movies you need to be like that. And if you're not I would say, 'what are you really doing?’ A lot of people want to become filmmakers because it's very cool and because you think you get access to a very cool lifestyle, which I think is largely a myth. You actually don't get anything. And the only way you can actually do anything good is if you make your whole life about it. There is no short cut to that. Now it's very easy to think that I have it easy but me and Jay and Jared made Nirvana: The Band on our own for like three years for no money. Like making it on our own time whenever we could. Then we made The Dirties for no money. And then we made Operation Avalanche for basically no money. It's only like now that it's starting to pay off. But that was like ten years or working all of the time on those things. And we still had a great life, as it's awesome to work with your friends and make things like that.

And I was in a very privileged situation to even be able to make that stuff in the first place. But you need to be like that. Because otherwise, if you're going to be making movies, it's the hardest thing to do, to make a movie that people are going to like. So you need to spend your whole time doing it or else you're just kidding yourself. And the people who try to short cut it are so obvious. You can see them coming from a mile away. And it's just a damn joke, those people. I just hate them, you know.

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