Promises vs Morals
Wei Ying breaking of his so called âTwin Prideâ promise is something JC stans and even JC himself aggressively hold on to. It is the example they give to prove how JC was a poor fellow abandoned by his brother over a broken promise. JC brings this up as an argument when everything else fails in the Guniang temple.Â
Let us ignore the circumstances in which that promise was made. Let us also ignore the situations and arguments that led to this promise. Let us forget about how invalid that promise is and how that promise is always interpreted differently by JC. Let us, for the sake of this argument consider that JC and Wei Ying were good brothers once and this promise was between two brothers.Â
So what if Wei Ying gave his promise and then broke it? Are promises more important than innocent human lives? Which is more important? Breaking a promise or saving lives? And was it only Wei Ying who broke this promise? It is about the âTwin Prideâ and not âOne pride and one followerâ. If you call someone your brother, then you have his back. It is an implicit promise. If JC had not broken the implicit promise of brotherhood and abandoned his morals and his so called brother, this promise would been kept. Â
Many fans seems to believe that JC abandoned WY to save his sect. Fine, let us believe this to be true for a moment. In that case, JC has no right to blame WY for breaking his promise. WY choose to save innocent wens and broke his promise to JC. Similarly, JC choose to save his sect and broke his promise of brotherhood. So, even from this angle, JC should not have any complains. Â
Forget about all this. We will only talk about WY breaking his promise. Here, I would like to give an example from one of the greatest epic ever âMahabharatâ from my country. Once there was a prince who was about to be declared as the heir to the throne. He was the only son of his king-father Shantanu. This king falls in love with a fisher woman and wants to marry her. Her father asks for one condition for the marriage: her son should be the next king. In order to save his father from heartbreak, the prince vows that he will never be the king and he will never marry so that his sons will not contest for the throne later. He also promises to be a servant of the throne instead of a prince.
Years pass by. The fisher woman has two sons and both of them die one after the other. The whole kingdom is doomed without a king or a heir. The prince refuses to break his promise to take the throne. He arranges for other means to have heirs. Among the latest generation of heirs, one is blind, one is very pale, and one is a son of servant. Even though the blind heir is the oldest, his younger brother is made the king. This new king dies soon after. And the saga continues. Everything ends up in a huge war which wipes out the entire continent.Â
This is what the Lord Krishna has to the prince who made the vow in the beginning. âWhen you made your promise, the circumstances were different. When your half brothers died without heirs, you refused to become the king. You refused to break your promise of being a servant and use your strength to usurp the next generation king when he was not doing his duty to his kingdom. It was the common people in your kingdom who suffered in the end. Once your promise was your strength of character. Later the same promises became the chains that stopped you from doing what is right. What use is a promise when your strength and prowess is not used for the betterment of your kingdom?â Of course, I am over simplifying a lot of things. The story is much more complex.Â
But it makes the same point. So what if WY broke his promise? Saving innocent lives and using his powers for the better is always the right choice in the end.Â
Kshithi !! i want to kiss you. Mahabharata and mdzs !! my two worlds colliding!!
On duties, rules and morals.
I want to add some too but letâs consider the avatar that comes after Krishna, i.e, Guatama Buddha - 9th avatar of Vishnu.
Born as Siddhartha of the shakya clan. There was a prophecy that heâll become an ascetic in the future, so his father in order to avoid that future, kept him away from the world outside and within the confies of his palace. he was taught combat skills such as swordsmanship, archery etc. Then when he was of age, married to a woman and had a son later on.
But then he felt incompleteness within his soul, he went out of palace and what he saw shocked him. He saw many elderly and children being sick, saw their sufferings thus he was shocked to his core bc never in his life before he experienced this and got to know that the world outside is so different. He leaves his wife and son and takes the path of ascetism guides common people, helps them. ( and teaches about escpacing the cycle of birth and death)
he left his wife, son and his duties in the palace. A wife helps the husband to complete his filial piety to his parents. âHelps/sharesâ not âdoes entirety on her ownâ.
Buddha is also the one of those people who wrote about the ethics, importance of duties and filial piety. Ironic isnât it?
He didnât teach about God or bhakti (devotion) because it is a vast concept. But he did teach about how to attain the end results directly. I.e Ethics. They are in a way, rules. Simple to understand and easier to follow.
(the person in the video explains it beautifully)
Rules because hinduism had many rites, rituals, festivals that sometimes people misinterpreted them. In best case scenario they learnt half-truths and left them, in worst case scenarios people twisted the truth for their own benefits and commit wrong in the name of rules.
among many examples, this in one of the Panchatantra tales, a character says, âpeople sacrificing animals in yagna are fools and do not know the real meaning of Aja. âAjaâ is not goat, it is a rice bamboo grown once in seven years.â
*Note: aja is written and pronounced exactly the same ठठ/ ठŕ¤ŕ¤ in sanskrit.
Many sanskrit words have multiple meanings for each, theyâre written and pronounced exactly the same, it needs knowing the presice contexts and good level of comprehension to achieve that. *
Rules apply to most situations not all of them. Theyâre not set in stone. Every rule has an exception. It depends on intention of the person who chooses whether to follow or not follow because he had no other choice or if one thing seems more morally right than compared to what is mentioned in the rules.
To help guide the old, sick and the unprivileged seemed more important to Buddha than carrying out his duties to his clan, wife and son.
:: His name was Siddhartha, siddha (to attain) artha (what you seek). I see that he renounced his given name and he hadnât yet found the meaning of his existance when he was living the life of luxury but later on he became an monk he achieved what he sought.
Now to mdzs
- Jiang Cheng didnât help wen remnants despite knowing them being innocents, many people expect us to be happy that he didnât do family extermination then and there, y'know? As what the tradition demands. brat owed the wens but he killed them during the siege anyway.
Jiang Cheng couldâve brought the wen remnants in the guise of assigning them for repairing lotus pier or make them live a simple life by atleast providing basic needs. uncle four was famous for his fruit wine, some wens made baskets or other wood accessories. he couldâve made them sell that and take most of the money they got for lotus pier. It wonât be much help. But itâs far better than not helping wens and not getting reparations even if its in less amounts. Afterall, he OWED to Wen siblings, they brought his parentsâ remains back so that he can place them in ancestral shrine, they couldâve easily chose not to do that and left their dead bodies to rot without proper burial rites. But No. people love to remind us that he is an obedient boy who does his duties to a clan. He chose not to help the wwx and innocent wens.
- wwx did the duty assigned by madam yu and jfm during their final moments, .i.e, protect jc even if it meant losing your own life. Won back the yunmeng territories. Turned the tides of war. And when the war was over, he felt that lives of innocent people was much more important to him than what his clan leader demands. Hell, wwx even went to repay his and jcâs debt alone.
- lwj chose what his heart believed was right, that wwx wasnât what he was accused of, despite his clan rules saying otherwise. he faught his own clan elders and accepted the punishment of 33 lashes of discipline whip. He accepted that it was wrong to injure his own clan elders. But he didnât repent.
( wwx was more righteous and empathetic than all the nasty clan elders anyway. And it was proven 13 years later
im sure lan an would be horrified by seeing the amount of rules that his clan created. Man was a simple monk who had a beloved and thought of not seeking immortality after they died so he could join them in afterlife together. Man was romantic, here are stuffy lans like lifeless dolls âexcessive emotion is forbiddenâ đ
This is not related to the main topic but my mom understands why buddha did what he did. She gets it really but she is still a bit salty(idk if its the proper term) that he left his wife and son. marriage is an eternal bond even more sacred if the ancient times are considered. he is leaving his ardhangini, meaning, his other half, the one he promised to share his entire life with and be by their side in whatever situation arises. If he wanted to leave he shouldnât have married her but we donât know their circumstances, it might also be his fatherâs way of keeping him chained to his palace. Men left their wives and children to fight battles and in a way buddha was fighting a battle, just not in the way many people do. i.e, on behalf of unprivileged, everyday battles they go through, their suffering.
You know what? This also reminds me that the the sects that aristocrats built, runs on the money of its subjects. through taxes.
Civilians can exist without the sects but sects canât without the money that civilians pay them. Their pre-existing treasure will also run out considering how lavishly they spend
Ahh this post was all over the place lol im sorry)
I dont mean to offend anyone by this post. chinese people mostly follow Confucianism, buddhism, daoism collectively.
But I donât like westerners (mainly) throwing âcultureâ card to justify wrong actions done by characters.
Thank you. Mahabharata is one of my all time favorite stories. I mean, It is the story of humankind. The philosophy behind it still holds true and it is timeless.Â
And rules are not set in stone. This is what Lord Krishna tries to convey. Sometimes rules ease the way for you to follow your Dharma. Sometimes the same rules become chains that cage you inside and you allow something bad to happen. In spite of having strength to do something, you end up being silent and let things happen. Draupadiâs humiliation comes to my mind. Everyone followed rules and traditions in that court, but failed to follow Dharma. I can think of LWJ in this scenario. He later learns his lesson. He was confused about rules and Dharma. When he saw the wen remnants, he could not reconcile between rules and righteousness. LWJ followed rules in WWXâs first life and then followed the righteousness after his death.Â
Coming back to Siddharth, I am not very well versed in his story although I know the main points. I have the same complicated feeling about him leaving his wife and kid as Lord Rama sending Sita to the forest while she was pregnant. Both happen for a greater good. It is a moral conundrum. Or even the story of Raja Harishchandra leaves the same complicated feelings in me.Â
Moving on to JC.Â
You are right about JC. He could have helped the Wens. There is no doubt about it. As you said, if he could not openly help them, he could have helped them secretly. How difficult is it to send money and clothes and food for 50 odd people secretly?Â
Most importantly, he could have just shut up about the whole matter. The cultivation world was quiet for some time. It was only after JC declared to everyone that WWX was the enemy of the cultivation world that everyone again started with their agendas. He just had to say that WWX left Yunmeng. He abandoned his morals when he left the Wens siblings to die and led a siege against them.Â
JC was spiteful of the fact that WWX chose not to be his lifelong subordinate and he could not control WWX anymore. As long as WWX stayed with Yunmeng, JC was happy that he had control and then it would not matter that WWX is better skilled than him, because JC is his sect leader. WWX refused to be a servant and that is what made JC angry. He declared that WWX was the enemy and pushed WWX into a corner. He wanted WWX to come back to him, asking him to save and that way JC can feel superior and then say âI told you so. From now on you better be under my thumbâÂ
Civilians and sects have a symbiotic relationship is what I feel. Civilians pay taxes to the sects which makes them rich and prosperous. In return sects keep civilians safe from supernatural beings and other cultivators. But how many of them followed this diligently? In later years JC never looked after his civilians for sure.Â
Re-blogging this since the last episode of donghua has left many arguments.
Oh, oh, oh this is so lovely. This perfectly encapsulates everything that I have felt and even implied since I entered this fandom.
MDZS is very much a tale of Dharma and Adharma. WWX is the perfect protagonist for such a tale because he follows Dharma spirit consistently, as it is supposed to be followed. Dharma is righteous without the trappings of society. It isnât what society or elders considers right, it is what the Atman (soul) and Paramatman (divine soul) considers right.
If your soul and the divine consider something right, and everyone opposes that, everyone else is wrong. In the hierarchy of what is right, societyâs rules donât matter. If the society considers slaying of all family members because of the sins of a few, society is wrong. If the society is wrong, standing against it is dharma or righteous. That is Lord Krishnaâs stance when dharma (righteousness) and kul kutumbh (family/clan) clash. That is Buddhaâs stance when Dharma and Kutumbh clash.
In the first part of the novel LWJ adopts Arjunaâs stance, his silence, his hesitation to go against his family, his obedience and concern, is all similar to Arjunaâs hesitation right before the war. If Gita was Arjunâs enlightenment, WWXâs death is LWJâs enlightenment. Arjuna was good and righteous before the Gita, but he didnât understand the true spirit of righteousness and how it transcends societal norms completely. The main point is SOCIETY CAN BE WRONG. FAMILY CAN BE WRONG. ELDERS CAN BE WRONG. To be silent is adharma. To step back in the face of the unrighteous masses is adharma.
THATâS why the cultural argument falls flat. Because morality has always recognized unjust actions, even back then. When people say it was just the culture of that time and that JC or anyone else was right to not spare the Wens, they are essentially siding with the unrighteous masses. Righteousness has always and will always transcend the societal norm. Every time we fight against injustice, every time we disagree with cruelty, every time we say no in the face of the unjust masses, we are righteous. That applies to every society and culture since the dawn of civilization. That is acceptable and not acceptable by society changes as years pass by but what is right and wrong doesnât change.
That is the spirit WWX follows.
You see LWJ adopt that stance very clearly post-ressurection.
Remove the trappings of society, obligations, families, and look at the core of everyoneâs actions.
WWX - Saves people who are innocent and abused even if he has to stand against society for it. WWX fights in a righteous war against oppressors. He uses tricks and unsavory methods but he fights in a righteous war. WWX protects JC at the cost of his own health and well-being. He does it out of affection but also because his elders placed that responsibility on his shoulders. All of this is RIGHT. Fighting against people attacking him? Right. Defending the weak? Right. Even marrying a righteous, honorable man and leaving behind a dishonorable one is dharma.
WN - Saves an enemy in an unrighteous war, honors the enemyâs parents, helps the enemy preserve the familyâs ancestors and give them a proper funeral.
WQ - Saves an enemyâs life and does an enemy clan a huge favor.
LWJ - Stands for what is right even after decades of being sheltered in the family circle (Like Buddha as one of the original commenters rightfully pointed out.
Who else is righteous?
JC? - Forgot all about debts, lead an army against innocents, refused to speak up against the unrighteous masses. At best, he is a coward. Still unrighteous.
NMJ? - Got blinded by rage and vengeance. Remained blinded even after justice was served.
LQR? - Being an unjust teacher is the absolute worst sin you can commit. Guru is as close to God as you can get. Teaching is a near divine profession. A teacher that isnât loving, patient, stern, and compassionate is unrighteous to begin with. LQR was never right and he kept sinking lower as the story went on.
LXC? - Righteousness doesnât exist in vacuum. It is earned. Being a silent observer doesnât win you any points in the scales of morality.
We donât even need to mention the Jins.
Who?
When you strip all societal trappings away and just go down to dharma and adharma, it is VERY CLEAR who is right and who is wrong.
In terms of morality. WWX is right. LWJ is right. JC is wrong.
People can bring in all the sentiment they like into this argument but sentiment isnât morality. They can say JC was only protecting his family, that his hands were tied by the Jins, that he was overcome by emotion, that he had lost his family and all. They can pity JC all they want but WX were in the right đ¤ˇââď¸
This meta is so beautiful. Reading this post actually encouraged me to read Bhagavad Gita. It is a struggle to understand because I know little of the deities and the story. But what Lord Krishna said stuck with me and reminded me of WWX in regards to the situation with the Wen Remnants. Lord Krishna said to a wavering Arjun âYou have a right to perform your prescribed duties, but you are not entitled to the fruits of your actionsâ . I may be understanding wrong but I was given the impression that Lord Krishna is urging Arjun to fight against the evildoers because it is the righteous course of action and victory or defeat donât matter and being able to enjoy the victory shouldnât be considered. The outcome of an action will often depend on outside factors and may not bring forth the desired results. That is why people should let go of the desire. Carry out the righteous acts because they should be done for their sake even if there will be no reward.
And that reminds me of Wei Wuxian. He wasnât a fool. He knew the Wen Remnants were widely hated. He knew if he tried to save them the cultivation world would turn on him. Like Arjun did in that battle, Wei Wuxian knew this righteous act would bring him opposite friends, teachers and former allies. He knew that with so many people against them even his best efforts may not be enough, that no matter what he do they may not be able to live peacefully and build a safe home for themselves, ie enjoy the fruits of his actions. He still persists in rescuing them because the righteous thing to do is to save them knowing he may not have a favourable outcome
(Mind this is my understanding and it delves a bit deeper into Hindu philosophy but -)
Youâre right about this - âYou have a right to perform your prescribed duties, but you are not entitled to the fruits of your actionsâ
What Lord Krishna means to say here, as per the original text, is that âit is your duty to follow dharma and do the right thing but the rewards for these righteous deeds arenât in your power. They are decided solely by me.â
In that way, WWX actually is rewarded for his righteous actions. He essentially âreincarnatesâ into a much better life where he lives with honor as a married man and a teacher to the younger generation. (I mentioned before that teaching is the most respected profession. Being a teacher itself is a reward, youâre earning good points with god every day you head to work and nurture the young) Simple happiness of everyday love with a dedicated husband is the best possible reward.
The lesson is - donât do good deeds out of pride or with the desire to win Godâs favor. Do it because being righteous is its own reward. That is the distinct difference between the Lan righteousness, which has become performative - done to preserve reputation and save face, and WWXâs righteousness, which is done simply because it is the right thing to do. The former is a slippery slope that can lead to mistakes and an unrighteous path. The latter is a difficult but ultimately the superior path.
Lord Krishna himself showcases this very easily. He is a flirt, he teases women, steals food from kitchens, and is as mischievous as they come. He speaks slyly, tricks people into doing this or revealing secrets. He doesnât play fair if the situation demands unjust means. He is ruthless when needed, benevolent when needed. Three thousand rules wonât keep him contained. He will still break them just to prove rules donât matter and you canât attain true righteousness through them. Only self-awareness, looking inward, and developing a strong moral core works. Everything else is just shallow.
By Lan standards, his behavior would be incorrigible. But he is the most righteous of all beings. His righteousness is innate and not performative. Thatâs one of the reasons why with Lord Krishna or any version of Lord Vishnu, the lineage, caste, parentage, or circumstances of living donât matter. He could be a beggar with no money to spare and he would still be the most righteous and respectable.
Gita, as a whole, preaches detachment from material desires and rewards. The damage to the body and material self is temporary. If you suffer to fulfill your dharma, the damage is to your material self. If you follow the unrighteous path, you donât damage your material self, but you damage your atman or soul. Soul transcends life and death. If you stain your soul, the consequences are long-term, spreading across different incarnations.
Similarly, WWXâs righteous path damaged his body but it didnât stain his soul. When he went on to his next life/or was resurrected, he was rewarded with happiness because his soul is and has always been pure.






















