vwoop!

he/him - had to ressurect this as the angry brown tranny quarantine zone cuz i kept seeing bullshit. still play minecraft at least i lost family in the genocide zionists fuck right off all white people owe me 20 dollars

[endercatvwoops]

In my 2007 ... book, Whipping Girl, I strived to show the myriad ways in which trans female/feminine people are negatively impacted by societal misogyny. In it, I coined the term transmisogyny to refer to the intersection of oppositional and traditional sexism in our lives. I made it very clear—both in the book and in my subsequent writings—that trans male/masculine people also face oppositional sexism (e.g., transphobia) and traditional sexism (misogyny), albeit not quite in the same way ... .

-Julia Serano

ive read whipping girl

if you engage in good faith i will respond in good faith. if you dont i wont

asks are off and they will remain off because apparently you people cant be trusted not to use racial slurs

[hellofmychoice]

The myth that “masculinity is always privileged over femininity” has gone so far that people literally tell trans men “no one is stopping you from being a man or masculine” to trans men/mascs like transphobia doesn’t exist.

[hellofmychoice]

The myth that “masculinity is always privileged over femininity” has gone so far that people literally tell trans men “no one is stopping you from being a man or masculine” to trans men/mascs like transphobia doesn’t exist.

[therapatical]

I think before you're allowed to argue about whether trans people who can get pregnant are vulnerable to state-sanctioned violence in ways that trans people who can't get pregnant are exempt from (even if they are vulnerable to different forms of violence! they are still exempt from this one thing), you should be required to watch a vaginal delivery as well as a cesarean delivery. on video. full video. there are plenty of educational videos online where you can do so. if you have never seen a birth, I do not want to hear about how trivial of a violence you think it is. I really don't.

[transfemme-shelterdog]

Also the permanent changes it can cause to your body.

Like yeah, body hair for transfems for some is INCREDIBLY dysphoria inducing. Now imagine if a transfem was banned from ever shaving anything ever, and was forced to have a beard and shag carpet of chest hair. Would make you wanna die right? Now imagine how trans guys who are dysphoric around their hips and waist and chest feel when they're forced to become *more* feminine looking and permanently unlike being able to shave. You can't shave off those changes.

[insomnia-cat]

Also I know it’s not the popular viewpoint, but stretch marks related to pregnancy are Also Permanent, for most people. I thought for the longest time that I was a bad person bc I didn’t feel empowered by my “tiger stripes” or my “battle scars” or however cis people try to paint the physical signs your body carried a baby. I genuinely thought I was monstrous bc whenever I look at the stretch marks I specifically gained from pregnancy I experience plummeting, horrible feelings in my stomach. But like. Birth for me was traumatizing. It wasn’t easy or magical or fun. I had an emergency c-section for my first child and thought I was going to die. Trauma + dysphoria + social shaming means this is the first time I’m talking publicly about how it feels to have marks on my body that won’t ever go away unless I elect to have expensive surgery, and if I have that surgery I am immediately ostracized and painted as shallow for not being able to overcome my trauma/dysphoria bc “girl power” or whatever (and no, saying “well I’m not a girl” does not stop this behavior.)

Birth for people who can have it but are dysphoric about it, can be a permanent trauma on their body in so many ways. It’s okay to acknowledge that and it doesn’t make a person bad for feeling those things and it doesn’t make us ungrateful when we do feel dysphoric over it.

(Obviously neither of you were saying that, but I have seen many who do and it’s always terrible when I do.)

[therapatical]

oh 1000%, it's also things like loose skin that can become a genuinely disabling issue for some people. one of my formative childhood experiences was watching Kate Plus Eight and her showing what pregnancy did to her body and how many problems it gave her. it was genuinely very sad and I felt bad for her (even if Kate herself had abajillion problems and is a truly deplorable human being. the original Karen). the amount of extra skin she had was to such a point that it interfered with her ability to do basic things like exercise at all, do laundry, etc. basically any physical activity. I wanna say she was also getting yeast skin infections due to there being so many folds and creases that would trap sweat and moisture etc.. and obviously she's an extreme case, but even a standard pregnancy is going to change your body in some pretty dramatic ways.

one of the most infuratingly sanitized phrases in the English language is, imho, "the miracle of life". it's said as if it's some sort of wonder and awe about the fact that we can create new life. and to some degree, that's part of it, sure. but the other side of it is that human beings being able to survive childbirth is truly a miracle. we shouldn't be able survive that. that amount of physical bodily trauma? that doesn't seem survivable. the fact that we can and routinely do survive it, is a full fucking miracle. it doesn't make sense that we can be literally ripped apart from the inside and be (for the most part) fine. the amount of blood loss, too. obviously people do die but modern medicine is such a miracle itself

[learn-how-to-love]

Something I don’t see talked about much is how predatorjacketing is a very common experience for trans men and mascs, especially from within our own community.

Our proximity to manhood and/or maleness is seen as a de facto link to predatory behavior, and in fact, is seen as somehow affirming to be called as such because man = predator. We are constantly told we must be held to account for the actions of (overwhelmingly and primarily) cis men, because otherwise we’re saying we’re not really men (ignoring that many of us aren’t, but that’s an exorsexist tangent for another day) because that’s what masculinity is. If we don’t identify with and apologize for it, we’re accused of not really being trans. It quickly becomes clear that a lot of these supposedly “woke” and “gender liberationist” people still subscribe to the idea that men will always be the predator and women the prey, so in their eyes when a trans man says he is a victim he is basically calling himself a woman, and when a trans woman is accused of assault people are basically calling her a man. This outdated view of gender dynamics being transposed onto trans people isn’t altogether surprising, but it’s incredibly frustrating how often it’s used to categorize people with the insistence that it’s just the way things are.

[transmasc-theory]

If you look at nearly every study quantifying social oppression- rates of suicidal thoughts or attempts, rates of being subjected to conversion therapy, rates of rape and domestic violence, rates of avoidance of medical care due to discrimination, I could go on- trans men are among the worst off in the entire queer community.

But unfortunately, one study that failed to prove statistical significance suggested that trans men who are employed full-time might make a whopping ten cents an hour more than trans women who are employed full-time, so you see, my hands are tied and I have no choice but to declare trans men a privileged class within the LGBT community. What do you expect me to do? Acknowledge the flaws within that one study on full-time wages? Acknowledge that even without flaws, the study would still be only one measure of social oppression experienced within the queer community and thus it might be worth looking at other ways transmascs are disadvantaged? That's crazy talk! This one study in front of me is the only one that matters!

[sapphoslilhelper]

In a study of 27,000+ trans people - almost 20x the number in the above oft-quoted study - of all employment statuses, it was found that in the US, trans men make less than trans women unless both trans people in question transitioned as children.

The labour market outcomes of transgender individuals

This paper uses the 2015 United States Transgender Survey of 27,715 transgender respondents to study the relationship between minority gende

[transguyjusttrying]

I've seen a few people claiming that trans men talking about being forcibly impregnated is just a means to weaponize our anatomy against people who can't get pregnant. This framing is honestly vile.

They ignore the fact that not everyone with a fertile uterus and ovaries, regardless of gender, wants to get pregnant and give birth. They ignore the fact that a lot of us live in places where abortion is difficult, if not impossible, to access. They ignore the fact that pregnancy permanently alters a person's body, and that it can be lethal.

I've even seen some try to point out that some trans men/mascs intentionally get pregnant and give birth as some sort of "gotcha," but those guys are just as capable of making their own choices as the rest of us. The existence of men who choose to carry children does not invalidate those of us who are unwilling.

If you can't get pregnant even though you want to, that does genuinely suck. I can see how it would hurt and make you angry. But that doesn't even come close to being forced to sacrifice the wellbeing and autonomy of your body to incibate a fetus, and you really can't pretend that it's anywhere near the same situation. It doesn't give you the go-ahead to treat people like shit for their anatomy while you accuse them of weaponizing it for just talking about our thoughts and experiences.

[naga-noia]

people will be BLATANTLY and VIOLENTLY transphobic against transmascs + spit the most vile intersexist/exorsexist bullshit youve ever seen in your entire life, and then still be marked green on shinigami eyes

like are you fucking kidding me. jesus christ

it doesn't even matter whether or not you think transandrophobia is "real" at this point, this is just active transphobia. Period. it doesn't matter how you spin it. you can mark people like this as green as you want, that doesn't mean I'm ever going to feel safe.

no excuse is going to convince me that any of these people (or the shinigami eyes extension itself) are "trans-friendly." active intersexism/exorsexism/transphobia (yes, even aimed at those "shitty tme tboys!") is not "trans-friendly." this isn't up for debate. stop pretending like it is. you can't pick and choose which trans people are okay to support and which ones are "acceptable targets." this is fucking nasty

[doomdoomofdoom]

Today in "Reporting Reddit Drama":

This post got reposted to the r/CuratedTumblr subreddit, as all semi-popular posts from here are, to feed the cyclical ecosystem of social media.

A moderator removed that post, adding a lengthy explanation about why transandrophobia isn't real actually.

Here it is in full, provided by a callout post that I suspect won't last much longer, so have an archive link

this really is just r/trans again. Considering the way reddit moderation is set up, I wouldn't be surprised if the same people are involved.

Do we have to invade r/AnarchyChess again

[velvetvexations]

Jesus fucking Christ.

I don't trust men who are obsessed with how much power they want to insist they have over me against all logic. Those are fucking creeps and more dangerous to me than anyone who recognizes transandrophobia ever will be.

[naga-noia]

I think the callout post put it really well, so I’m screenshotting it and putting it here in case of deletion

For how much people like this tend to cite intersectionality as a reason why transandrophobia couldn’t ever possibly exist, they sure do love to ignore all other relevant aspects of a person’s identity that may contribute to how they’re perceived/treated overall, in favor of trying to sort all oppression into a neat little box where “Men Treated Good” and “Women Treated Bad” and no other factors are ever considered

[queerautism]

I think it's so fucking ridiculous to insist "this is directly counter to our experience" "you are ignoring our experiences" when you are the one COMPLETELY IGNORING and denying trans men's experiences when they are talking about their own lives and absolutely not about you at all.

Once more, theory is not an abstract math problem, it has to actually correspond to reality!!!

[mytransrightsblog]

So like, here's the thing.

TERFs don't recruit by right out the gate going "trans women are perverted men who want to gain access to women's spaces to rape women and girls, and trans men are just poor confused lesbians brainwashed by the transgender agenda into mutilating their bodies." If they did that, they would never recruit anyone. No, they start small. First they start with very normal feminist talking points then, as they get you listening, they start turning up the heat a little bit. They build up to it, they get you to agree with them at first and then trick you into continuing to think they're reasonable. Believe me, I have seen this happen. I have seen TERFs literally discussing the efficacy of this method in getting young people to join them- the medium they specified was Pinterest, which is where I've seen this happening the most. They prey on people who don't know what to watch out for, get them agreeing, and then start getting more and more radical until the victim is agreeing with genuinely heinous shit. That's how they do this. I've seen it before, I nearly fell down this rabbit hole before. I know where this starts.

And what I am seeing from transandrophobes mirrors that exactly.

It starts the same, similar talking points and everything- literally I have seen TRFs using TERF rhetoric either word-for-word or nearly so. The talking points used to recruit people into this are almost the same, just trans-inclusive. And then it starts building up. I've seen people falling down this rabbit hole in real time and let me tell you, it almost never starts with "forcefem all transmascs," it's always something that's easily agreeable, trans men not belonging here or there, transandrophobia not being a thing because androphobia isn't a thing, "basic feminism-" it starts small. And then it starts building. And next thing you know you've got someone agreeing with "bomb that kills all trans men." It's exactly the same.

It starts the same. You get someone agreeing with mild stuff, then you build up until they're agreeing with major stuff. It's classic extremist tactic, and seeing something like this in any movement is a massive red flag. I am seeing it in people becoming hateful towards trans men and transmascs. This is how TERFs recruit, it's how cults recruit, it's how extremist groups recruit, and now it's how transandrophobes are recruiting.

And all I'm asking is that we see that as the red flag that it is, and ask ourselves what this pattern in recruitment says about a movement.

[ramicorn]

youre mad that non binary people are- let me check my notes here. Not Binary

[cazort]

So let's talk about this in a little bit more depth. I happen to be comfortable (at least in most contexts, not all) openly identifying as both transfem and nonbinary, but non all nonbinary people feel this way.

Some reasons why they might not, and these examples are all from real people:

Some nonbinary people are fully agender, and don't like or identify with the terms transfem or transmasc because these terms imply they have a gender somewhere on the M-F spectrum, which they do not.

Some nonbinary people have a distinct gender (I,e. They are not agender) but it isn't on the M-F axis (e.g. aporagender, although not everyone for whom this scenario is true identifies with that term)

Some nonbinary people may privately identify as transfem or transmasc, but do not want to reveal which they are, and do not wish to reveal their assigned birth gender, so they publicly do not identify with these terms because they think it's none of your business.

Some nonbinary people's experience of transness involves crossing gender roles "both ways"; for example someone might pursue HRT but then engage in other presentation choices or even medical treatments that push people's perception of them back towards their assigned birth sex. So these people might identify as being both transfem and transmasc in different aspects of their life. Or they may find these labels flawed because they are oversimplified so they want to avoid using them entirely.

Some nonbinary people are genderfluid so they may feel transmasc or transfem some of the time, but not all of the time, and because of this, they may feel uncomfortable labeling themselves with one of those terms on a more permanent basis.

Some nonbinary people are intersex and their experience of transness does not start fully from a binary reference sex, and thus they are not fully comfortable with the terms transfem or transmasc, even if their gender identity would technically satisfy it with respect to their binary sex assigned at birth. They see the terms as misleading, overgeneralizing, and/or erasing key aspects of their intersex experience.

All of these sorts of nonbinary people are valid.

There might be other people I haven't even imagined. These are just ideas I have heard people express.

Please liberate yourself, don't hold onto anger at nonbinary people when that anger is best directed at the systems that oppress us.

[misogyny-affected]

does your sentence about “tme” people make sense if you replace “tme” with “cis men” (who should by definition be included under it)?

if it doesn’t, it’s even more clear that “tme” just means trans masculine

[riv3rboychaos]

lets try it!

"but at least if you're a cis man, you're more likely to be believed, as you have a vagina, so long as your rapist is AMAB"

hmmmmmm, most perisex cis men dont have vaginas iirc

"non-binary people afab are cis men" SORRYY??

"they/them are cis men pronouns" ykw hell yeah people can use whatever pronouns they want (heavily side-eyes the actual intentions of the statement)

[tboyreject]

a lot of conversations surrounding trans men having male privilege made me realize just how Eurocentric and white most people's view of trans people is, because it doesn't take into account so many countries where women are prohibited from pursuing education, refused independency or forced into child marriages.

male privilege does not save transmasculine people from violent misogyny, it is not a get out of jail card, and so the rights of transmasculine bodies are tied to women's rights. and if to gain access to male privilege you first have to be allowed bodily autonomy and then be legally and socially recognized as a man is it really a privilege at all?

[that-grassbro]

This is so fucking funny to me im sorry

HOW DARE YOU ASK TRANS WOMEN TO HAVE COMPASSION???

[olenoidserratus]

Even funnier now considering the latest discourse.

[i-suggest-transing-your-gender]

oh my lordd that one anon is pissing me the fuck off.

"hot take but i'm starting to believe trans men don't actually experience transphobia. it seems like the worst they get is sometimes getting called confused women." i dont know what to tell you dude but uhh. that IS transphobia. our identity is being denied!!! that! is! transphobia!

"if you are offended by being called a woman, there is something MAJORLY wrong with you. it is not offensive to be called a woman, and that really just shows how misogynistic you are." literally nothing misogynistic about that....... if you don't identify as something, if you are NOT something, and you continue to be called that, its pretty disheartening. again, our identity is being denied!! that'd offend anyone.

"because society will always reward masculinity." not always! not when it's the so called 'confused women' who identify as male! not when its the 'confused women' who dress and act masculine. it certainly isn't rewarded then.

"and, what, they get called theyfab? birthday boy? oh no, someone said a word i don't like :(" im... afraid thats how literal insults work?? shocker, people get upset when you call them insults based on something harmless they can't control! who would've thought.

"we are getting killed." both trans men and trans women have been victims of murder. full stop. trans men are also victims to corrective rape.

"cis people literally love trans men" no they dont. you think all traces of transphobia leave someones body the moment theres a trans man around?

"if you have chosen to abandon womanhood" yikes. you sound like a transphobe there, anon. you saying we choose to be trans?

"you are what's wrong with the world, trans men." yikes again. try again, anon. trans men aren't actually the cause of all of humanity's problems. sorry to burst your bubble.

"you don't get the right to complain you're being "oppressed" when you're not." but we are. you'll never believe why. take a big guess. it starts with T.

"you want to be a man? act like it." yikes x3. how are men 'supposed' to act, huh anon?

"so, yeah. trans men don't experience transphobia, at least not NEARLY as bad as trans women." we do. maybe the reason you don't see it is because trans men's struggles aren't really SEEN.

-- @billy-argues

Context

I don't have much to add but yeah, you pretty much said it all.

[oceanamethyst]

i saw the most stupid take ever

someone was talking about how it's weird that their tmasc friend is uncomfortable using the men's restroom when they pass and this is an example of "afab privilege"

like gee i wonder why he would feel uncomfortable

it's almost like transmascs have the highest assault rates

it's almost like the discrimination/misogyny one has faced from not being born a perisex man doesn't go away simply from being trans and transitioning into a man

it's almost like going into spaces that were technically built for cisgender perisex men is subjecting yourself to more situations where abuse can happen due to not being born a perisex man

it's almost like the very idea of "afab privilege" being a thing is misogynistic in itself

[razortouched]

Do I even need to say anything about how wildly wrong and dangerous this rhetoric is...?

Just in case...

1.) That's not what materialism is. "Making things better for people" is literally idealism by definition. Materialism refers to the actual material ways you can improve people's lives.

2.) Bodily autonomy, justice, [legal] equality, etc, are all broad concepts but can be established in ways that will materially improve people's lives.

3.) I'm sure I'll be accused of rape jacketing but holy shit how is this not just explicitly pro-rape rhetoric.

4.) Claiming to be a materialist but not valuing bodily autonomy, which is ome of the major examples of material conditions (ownership over one's actual material fucking form) is absolutely unconsciousnable

[busket]

cis women you gotta be more self aware at how obvious your disgust with trans men is sometimes. like I dont think you realize how blatant you very often are while still thinking yourself an ally

[busket]

a trans man adding to your post about feminism and misogyny with his own experiences is not mansplaining to you. if your reaction to a trans man relating to you and comparing his similar experience is for you to be like "this is actually about women. women only zone" despite trans men living most of our lives as women and continuing to experience misogyny AND transphobia after transitioning, the message is very clear. you dont care about our lives, you dont care about us, you probably dont truly trust or like any trans person, and you aren't worth trusting