House Stark sideblog started after falling down the Jonsa rabbit hole during Season 6. All about the Stark Catharsis. Also political!jon, and dark!dany. Reading ASoIaF. Watching GOT Season 8. Make Art, Not Wank. (main blog @zimshan) {tags}: house stark | ned | cat | jon | robb | sansa | arya | bran | rickon {recs}: meta | fic | fanart | vids
When you think that George wrote Joffrey in such a way that people cheered when he was murdered at 14 years old.
He was only thirteen, actually.
And I'm not sure we are meant to cheer. There is not triumph in the description of his death, even though the POV character Tyrion was the subject of Joffrey's vicious cruelty literally the moment before he begins to choke.
GRRM doesn’t hold back with making Joffrey awful, a selfish and cowardly tyrant, a bully and liar, a sexual predator, vain and cruel and stupid, a thoroughly dangerous and barely stable individual. But he also gives us some glimpses into why he is the way he is, and more importantly, he puts the real dilemma into the fact that this child is just handed all this power and the people around him - and the system they serve - refuse to properly check the abuses that follow because it is convenient to them.
Consequently, GRRM doesn’t treat his death the way he does that of Tywin. Quite the opposite. If you’re cheering, you’re not paying attention.
(Long quote of the scene below cut)
GRRM goes out of his way to emphasize the terror of the scene and reduces the elements to what Joffrey truly is: a boy.
“He’s choking,” Queen Margaery gasped.
Her grandmother moved to her side. “Help the poor boy!” the Queen of Thorns screeched, in a voice ten times her size. “Dolts! Will you all stand about gaping? Help your king!”
Ser Garlan shoved Tyrion aside and began to pound Joffrey on the back. Ser Osmund Kettleblack ripped open the king’s collar. A fearful high thin sound emerged from the boy’s throat, the sound of a man trying to suck a river through a reed; then it stopped, and that was more terrible still. “Turn him over!” Mace Tyrell bellowed at everyone and no one. “Turn him over, shake him by his heels!” A different voice was calling, “Water, give him some water!” The High Septon began to pray loudly. Grand Maester Pycelle shouted for someone to help him back to his chambers, to fetch his potions. Joffrey began to claw at his throat, his nails tearing bloody gouges in the flesh. Beneath the skin, the muscles stood out hard as stone. Prince Tommen was screaming and crying.
He is going to die, Tyrion realized. He felt curiously calm, though pandemonium raged all about him. They were pounding Joff on the back again, but his face was only growing darker. Dogs were barking, children were wailing, men were shouting useless advice at each other. Half the wedding guests were on their feet, some shoving at each other for a better view, others rushing for the doors in their haste to get away.
Ser Meryn pried the king’s mouth open to jam a spoon down his throat. As he did, the boy’s eyes met Tyrion’s. He has Jaime’s eyes. Only he had never seen Jaime look so scared. The boy’s only thirteen. Joffrey was making a dry clacking noise, trying to speak. His eyes bulged white with terror, and he lifted a hand … reaching for his uncle, or pointing … Is he begging my forgiveness, or does he think I can save him? “Noooo,” Cersei wailed, “Father help him, someone help him, my son, my son …”
Tyrion found himself thinking of Robb Stark. My own wedding is looking much better in hindsight. He looked to see how Sansa was taking this, but there was so much confusion in the hall that he could not find her. But his eyes fell on the wedding chalice, forgotten on the floor. He went and scooped it up. There was still a half-inch of deep purple wine in the bottom of it. Tyrion considered it a moment, then poured it on the floor.
Margaery Tyrell was weeping in her grandmother’s arms as the old lady said, “Be brave, be brave.” Most of the musicians had fled, but one last flutist in the gallery was blowing a dirge. In the rear of the throne room scuffling had broken out around the doors, and the guests were trampling on each other. Ser Addam’s gold cloaks moved in to restore order. Guests were rushing headlong out into the night, some weeping, some stumbling and retching, others white with fear. It occurred to Tyrion belatedly that it might be wise to leave himself.
When he heard Cersei’s scream, he knew that it was over.
I should leave. Now. Instead he waddled toward her.
His sister sat in a puddle of wine, cradling her son’s body. Her gown was torn and stained, her face white as chalk. A thin black dog crept up beside her, sniffing at Joffrey’s corpse. “The boy is gone, Cersei,” Lord Tywin said. He put his gloved hand on his daughter’s shoulder as one of his guardsmen shooed away the dog. “Unhand him now. Let him go.” She did not hear. It took two Kingsguard to pry loose her fingers, so the body of King Joffrey Baratheon could slide limp and lifeless to the floor.
(ASOS, Tyrion VIII)
This is not a scene of triumph. It’s not treated with sarcasm or humor. Few deaths are, but this is especially focused on the physical violence of his body reacting to the poison, and the roughness of those trying to save him which is the last thing Joffrey experiences consciously, the panic in the crowd, the absolute desperation of Cersei, the shock and trauma for the children and Margaery.
A cruel child has been cruelly murdered. There is no joy in this, and we don’t see anyone rejoice. Not Sansa, not Arya.
This isn’t justice. Nothing is fixed. This is a broken system where no one is safe.
As much as I enjoy Jon as a character, I can’t deny that there is some curious foreshadowing for the possibility of him making crucial errors/mistakes involving dragons/Targaryens in the future. Here are three that I’ve noticed.
1. In Jon’s first chapter he’s drunk and boastful about joining the Night’s Watch. He tries to use his childhood hero, Daeren the Young Dragon, as an argument for why he should join. We learn that even though Jon idolizes Daeren’s conquests, we find that there’s not much there to idolize, and that Jon’s hero was immature and stunningly reckless:
“Daeren Targaryen was only fourteen when he conquered Dorne,” Jon said. The Young Dragon was one of his heroes.
“A conquest that lasted a summer,” his uncle pointed out. “Your Boy King lost ten thousand men taking the place, and another fifty trying to hold it. Someone should have told him that war isn’t a game.” He took another sip of wine. “Also,” he said, wiping his mouth, “Daeren Targaryen was only eighteen when he died. Or have you forgotten that part?”
“I forget nothing,” Jon boasted. The wine was making him bold. He tried to sit very straight, to make himself seem taller. “I want to serve in the Night’s Watch, Uncle.”
- Jon I, AGOT
2. Daeren the Young Dragon wrote his own biography of his conquests, and he heavily inflated his victories. Jon appears to be unable to see through this bit of Targaryen propaganda, as we can see in this conversation with a more astute battle commander:
“Goat tracks?” The king’s eyes narrowed. “I speak of moving swiftly, and you waste my time with goat tracks?”
“When the Young Dragon conquered Dorne, he used a goat track to bypass the Dornish watchtowers on the Boneway.”
“I know that tale as well, but Daeron made too much of it in that vainglorious book of his. Ships won that war, not goat tracks. Oakenfist broke the Planky Town and swept halfway up the Greenblood whilst the main Dornish strength was engaged in the Prince’s Pass.”
- Jon IV, ADWD
3. Jon receives a warning that he shouldn’t be flippant about dragons, because they were used by Valyrians to oppress people. Dragons are bad omens, and making jokes about bad omens is like laughing in Old Nan’s face:
“No, these other sails … from farther east, perhaps … one hears queer talk of dragons.”
“Would that we had one here. A dragon might warm things up a bit.”
“My lord jests. You will forgive me if I do not laugh. We Braavosi are descended from those who fled Valyria and the wroth of its dragonlords. We do not jape of dragons.”
No, I suppose not. “My apologies, Lord Tycho.”
- Jon IX, ADWD
Bonus - not necessarily related to Targaryens or dragons, but Jon also receives a warning from Stannis about being deceived by appearances. The implication is that he might make the same mistakes that Sansa did with Joffrey:
“You are fond of this Val?”
“I scarcely know her.”
“They tell me she is comely.”
“Very,” Jon admitted.
“Beauty can be treacherous. My brother learned that lesson from Cersei Lannister. She murdered him, do not doubt it. Your father and Jon Arryn as well.”
You should read the Dark is Rising Sequence by Susan Cooper! It is heavily based in Welsh mythology and its deuteragonist is named Bran, which is the Welsh name for crow (explained by Bran himself to the English protagonist Will, as he lectures him on proper Welsh pronunciation) It also came out during the 70s and was for children and young adults. Along with Elia of Dorne probably being a reference to Delia of Eldorne from Song of the Lioness by Tamora Pierce, I think GRRM was reading some YA fantasy before he started writing AGOT.
Bran the Blessed “Bendigeiduran” (literally ‘blessed’ a Latin loan word and ‘Bran’ in mutated form as is usual in Celtic Languages) is one of the great kings of Welsh myth. He was such a great king that he even sort of survived his own beheading and feasted his followers for seventy days. He’s believed to be one of the influences on the Fisher king and the Grail legend because a bowl and a spear are connected to his head.
I thought everyone in the ASOIAF fandom knew that. 😆
I wonder if GRRM has read the retelling of the Mabinogi by Evangeline Walton that came out in the 1980s.
The crown is crushing him, she thought. He wants so much to be a good king, to be brave and honorable and clever, but the weight is too much for a boy to bear.
Hound didn't need Sansa love and care to become better. He is a grown ass man who needs to handle his issues on his own. Sansa is a child not his therapist. Whenever she tried to sympathize with him he rebuke her and mock her, she tried to challenge his views he abused her. Why would she continue to be his punching bag? This fandom wants Sansa to forget her trauma to care her abuser. Him sacrificing his life for her at the end isn't going to erase the trauma Sansa goes through him.
It really bothers me when people act like Robb not trading Jaime for Sansa is most rational and correct choice. It feels like they are giving validity to the idea that Sansa is not worth as much as Jaime??? like I feel like reader reaction should not necessarily be to totally agree with Robb and be like "yeah it sucks but getting Sansa back just isnt worth it." why do politics have to come before sansa? no way would jon not rescue arya if he had the chance. or ned for lyanna either
he was trying to please his lords and trying to hold leverage over the lannisters but i feel like the narrative disagrees with his decision.
tywin planned the red wedding before he found out about jaime being released.
it led to the lannisters marrying sansa to tyrion which threatened the succession so much that robb had to legitimise jon, a brother of the night’s watch. it’s unprecedented to say the least.
it also lost the starks a marriage alliance. even tywin knew that if they let sansa go, catelyn would arrange a marriage for her, bringing in potential allies
without another heir, the northern- riverland alliance broke which allowed the freys, boltons and lannisters to solidify their hold on the 2 kingdoms
of course sansa being a hostage meant that she wasn’t killed in the red wedding. i doubt robb would have taken her with him to his western campaign and i’m sure he would have married jeyne after hearing about winterfell’s destruction.
i guess there are no easy answers and i don’t see sansa holding a grudge against him
I talked about this before with someone how Robb not trading Jaime for Sansa felt like one of the most stupid mistakes Robb made. And something I will never get over emotionally and writing wise. It didn't make sense to me because the politics of the trade was in the Starks favor actually if the trade was made without incident.
1.Tyrion was the one who offered the trade, this was before Tywin had come to Kings Landing. Which meant, it was the perfect time for the Starks to except the trade because Tyrion and Cersei both cared about getting Jaime back and were willing to give more for him than Tywin.
2. Jaime was a useless political hostage, the leverage Robb had over the Lannister's was completely sentimental. Jaime was a Kings guard, he could never marry and bring the Lannister's a new alliance by marriage. He wasn't even the heir to Casterly Rock, technically. Given Jaime back wouldn't have lost them that much leverage. IMO
3. If Robb agreed and got Sansa back, he could have given her hand to one of his bannerman, contradicting the bullshit that if Robb made the trade he would have lost the respect of his men. He also could have made an even better alliance if he had Sansa. Arya was already promised to a Frey, but Sansa could have married a number of people that would have strengthened and expanded Robb's influence and alliances.
4.Robb was rightfully distrustful towards Tyrion's and the Lannister's as a whole. Which I absolutely get, but if he had just loved Sansa enough to take that chance I think we Tyrion might have actually honored the trade and arrange the swap without any devious plotting.
6. Tywin understood Sansa Starks value for more than her own brother and I think that is sad. That is why the trade would never have been possible if Tywin was in power rather than Tyrion. Tyrion was too emotional when it came to Jaime, would be willing to give more up to get him back.
Though I can't see Sansa holding a grudge against Robb, but was it ever explored if Sansa knew that Robb had outright refused to trade Jaime for her? I think if she did know she would have felt really hurt. She believed in Robb, held out hope that he would come for her and yet he had already let her go, was resigned to not getting her back, refusing to sacrifice for her while she was beaten every time he wont a battle.
Sansa may not begrudge Robb, but I sure as hell resent him on her behalf.
But then you have to include the author POV as well. GRRM crafts a scenario in which Sansa is stuck in the enemy’s high tower because she’s valuable to the narrative. If they had exchanged her for Jaime earlier, she might be dead by now.
