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@jadeite-art
Half of me wonders what the Ghoul's plan for using Lucy as a bargaining chip was.
Part of me thinks that his plan was to get her captured by Hank as a sort of Trojan prisoner, so that she'd get closer to information about Hank that he'd never voluntarily divulge to Cooper. Kinda mirroring the Ghoul using himself as a "Trojan prisoner" so that Lucy could get the caps from the Khans' bounty.
I agree that the original plan was probably to use Lucy as a Trojan Horse.
The facility Hank is at must be protected against intrusion but if Lucy stood at the door there's a good chance Hank would open it and let her inside (and once there, Lucy could do the same for Coop).
In order for this plan to work, however, Lucy would have to have been read in on it. That's why I think Coop wanted to have a talk with her once she sobered up and the appearance of Chicken Fucker with Hank's proposal ruined everything. Yes, that was the bargain but it's not what the bargain was supposed to be.
Either way, I think Cooper's goal has always been to get inside the facility with Lucy's help, get info out of Hank one way or another and then kill him or let Lucy do it.
Cooper was definitely planning on trailing Hank but didn't anticipate Lucy catching him off guard.
It is something that did occur to me as well. I wonder if he just left Lucy laying there and went to the window to see which direction the Chicken Fucker would go 🤔
Not sure if he intended to get Lucy in on his plan once she woke up or not. He might have intended to just leave her in the room while he tried to get into the vault and shoot Hank's brains out or something.
a lot has talked about it now but i am never getting over cooper denying dogmeat was his dog with such quickness, lucy could barely get out the question. and when roger said lucy was cooper's smoothie. that man said nothing. all he does is talk. and he said nothing. the camera didn't even pan to him or his face or nothin'. they didn't even pan to lucy's. it really is foreshadowing, i'm sick
lucy being in the clutches of caesar's legion and him telling dogmeat that he doesn't like lucy either and assumes dogmeat doesn't too. and then when cooper's in the caesar's legion camp trying to save lucy, he just goes ahead and tells them they have something he wants. and once again, nobody moves. camera pans to nobody in particular. he just ups the ante and promises to divulge the last holdouts of the ncr. anything to get lucy back, i guess
I dare say the progression of Cooper's relationship with Lucy mirrors the progression of his relationship with Dogmeat (and possibly other people down the line). There is however a delay between the two so we can treat the former as foreshadowing of the latter.
➡️ Coop hurts CX404 in self defense but then wastes a stimpak to save her. He hurts Lucy but he does it for the sake of his own self preservation (he needs the head to get the bounty to get the vials to not go feral) but then at the Observatory he takes out a bunch of BoS knights that would no doubt shoot her on the spot.
➡️ He takes CX404 with him on the premise he wants to use her to track down Wilzig. Nevermind he likely secretly enjoys having a dog. He takes Lucy with him on the premise he wants to use her to get to Hank. Nevermind he likely secretly enjoys having some company.
➡️ Despite keeping his distance, he takes care of CX404 (ex. feeds her the critters he gets off Lucy's back). Despite keeping his distance, he ensures Lucy is fed and hydrated and out of harm's way.
➡️ Once CX404 leads him to the gulper, he ditches her arguing she ain't his dog anyway. Once Lucy serves her purpose relative to Hank (we still gotta learn the exact details if that), he'll part ways with her cause she ain't his girl anyway.
In both cases he acts in denial of his true feelings because feelings are dangerous and they complicate things. To care for someone is to make yourself vulnerable and he can't afford that.
➡️ Coop comes across CX404 again. She's in a bit of a predicament. He gets her out of that freezer and takes her with him without any hidden agenda. Similarly he'll come across Lucy again, help her out of some kind of predicament and ask her to go with him but this time without any ulterior motive.
This is probably where S2 will end.
➡️ Cooper renames CX404 to Dogmeat signaling he's considering her as his dog now. At the same time he reiterates that she's not Roosevelt, the dog he loved and lost. I'm guessing in S3 Coop will drop the Miss and start adressing Lucy with her given name (and/or possibly offer her his own name) to signal he considers her as an actual companion. At the same time it will be made clear that Lucy is not a substitute for Barb and Janey, the family he loved and lost.
The love Cooper had for Roosevelt and Barb and Janey cannot be erased. They will forever be in his heart, even if they are gone. But who's to say he can't come to love another dog and maybe even another person?
In S2 we see Coop keep Dogmeat around and treat it as his actual dog. Dogmeat herself clearly considers Cooper to be her new owner as she's trudging by his side most of the time and always comes back to him. If my conspiracy theory here is correct, we'll see a mirror of that between Coop and Lucy as well.
Note: Dogmeat used to belong to Wilzig who took her away from the Enclave. Similarly Lucy used to belong to (not literally, mind you, but in the sense of being the child of) Hank who was the reason why she left the Vault. Dogmeat became Cooper's dog in the result of his conflict with Wilzig. Similarly Lucy could become Cooper's companion in the result of his conflict with Hank.
A noteworthy scene is the one when an injured Cooper talks to Dogmeat about the Ship of Theseus. It shows us that beneath the cold gunslinger facade hides a man with a desperate need for connection, a need than can only be fully satisfied by another human being. That said, I'm guessing that in S3 we'll see Cooper opening up to Lucy a little bit more which will grant her perspective on his behavior and strengthen their relationship.
you mentioned past!cooper desperately wanted to protect not just janey but also barb, and while i agree with that, do you have any thoughts about what's running through his head during charlie's speech in relation to barb specifically? of course you can still love and/or want to protect someone even if your relationship is on the rocks. but given how cold he was to barb, it made me wonder if he was still hoping to save/redeem her or not. idk.
personally, i can see barb being portrayed more sympathetically while house is the one who really destroys his life, hence why ghouper still refers to her as his wife. i'm wondering if there was some kind of last minute reunion or secret understanding between them. ngl i kinda hope not, not just bc of ghoulcy but bc i think betrayal + a crumbling marriage is so much juicier lol. this is all pure speculation of course, we might just need to wait and see but i'm so curious if you have any guesses.
While Cooper could easily apply Charlie's speech to Barb and the dilemma she faces (sacrifice the world to save myself and my daughter and hopefully also my husband), I think in that moment he's applying it specifically to his own dilemma regarding House (act on Ms Williams request and sacrifice one man to potentially save millions). Moldaver's goal is for the bombs never to drop at all so if Cooper's bet on her is the right one, both Janey and Barb will be saved. He doesn't have to chose between one or the other. The same, however, can't be said for Barb.
I'm convinced Barb knows about Cooper's spying and she's crying in the kitchen because she realizes she will need to sacrifice Coop to save herself and Janey. I sent an ask about that to @perfectfangirl, you can check it out
As for Coop and his coldness towards Barb, I think the crux of the issue is that finding out she'd been lying to him and manipulating him broke the trust between them. And so now he regards everything she says and does with suspicuon because who's to tell if her tears aren't just part of an act?
It's not that Coop suddenly stopped loving Barb. It's that he realized that the Barb he loved wasn't real. That said, I think that in a hypothetical scenario where Moldaver got her cold fusion tech back, the bombs never fell and Vault-Tec went out of business, these two would still have divorced. Yes, they would have probably remained on good terms so to speak, you know, for Janey's sake, but that level of broken trust is not something that can be repaired imho.
Yes, present day Cooper refers to Barb as his wife but I think that's mostly to avoid comments and follow up questions.
Seeing Hank alive and well in 2296 reignited his hope that Barb and Janey might be alive out there somewhere but I don't think he's honestly looking to get back with his wife. He says that he wants to know where his family is or what happened to them. He never says he wants to get them back. All he really wants at this point is closure.
"I guess that`s worth doing pretty much anything. Even something bad."
So this is the flashback words right after Cooper saved Lucy. I know many people think that all of this connected to Cooper`s family, to his selfish desire to reach his goal, so Lucy is just a tool, leverage, and nothing more to him. If that is correct than what it would mean? That Cooper did something bad for people he love? So saving Lucy is something bad? Or maybe something stupid like he said?
NO! I am sorry but this flashback connected precisely to Lucy and actions he did to save her. Which is supposed betraying of NCR people and inciting a battle between legionnaires. And that's it. That literally it. Pretty much half of the flashbacks connect or parallel Lucy and Cooper. Their lives are connected. They are connected.
And i feel like its kinda offensive to characters to think that Cooper can`t really want to save Lucy just for her and not because she is some kind of phantom means to get to his goal. Not because she saved his life before and he feels that he`s owns her and that she's worth rescuing because she`s genuinely a good person and he likes her(secretly and idc romantically or not)
The speech is as much about Barb and Janey as it is about Lucy.
The speech says as much:
At the end of the day, we just gotta hope we bet on the right side. The side that protects the people you love. Because if it did, I guess that's worth doing pretty much anything. Even something bad.
Past Cooper - who sits at the meeting and listens to this speech - applies this to his situation in 2077. Does he bet on Moldaver, (the right side) who seems to seek out a solution that wouldn't require nuclear annihilation that will protect Barb and Janey (the people he loves) and follow her request to kill House (do something bad).
Present Cooper - who reminisces on Charlie's speech - applies this to his situation in 2296. Does he bet on the NCR (the right side) who are seeking to rebuild and don't reduce women to cattle and would protect Lucy - but also Barb and/or Janey if they turned out to still be around - (the people he loves) and stir up and open conflict in the Legion camp resulting in multiple deaths including that of innocent slaves (do something bad).
Saying that Coop loves Lucy is definitely a stretch but I think he does genuinely care about her, even if he won't admit to it yet. His "I don't like her either but we'll need her down the road" rings very similar to her "He'll be fine, he's very durable".
Then there's that thing Charlie says when giving Cooper the lighter:
They gave it to me for saving a man. Not for killing the three it took to do it.
Past Cooper applies this to Barb and Janey whom he desperately wants to protect (the man saved) and House whom he is required to kill on the presumption that he is going to be the one to start the nuclear war (the men killed to do it).
Present Cooper applies this to Lucy whom he wants to rescue from the Legion (the man saved) and the NCR rangers whose plea for help he seems to ignore and whose location he seems to give out to the Legion (the men killed to do it).
Now here's a thought:
We know that Past Cooper didn't actually kill House (didn't kill the three men to save the one). That could imply that Present Cooper didn't actually give out the NCR rangers real hideout location to the Legion.
Then there's also that thing he says at the end of the episode:
Lucy: Thank you.
Ghoul: Don't thank me yet.
Lucy: Why? What did you do?
Ghoul: Maybe something good. Or something stupid.
Then the dynamite stash blows up.
The way the dialogue is structured implies that the maybe good but maybe stupid thing he's talking about isn't rescuing Lucy. It's blowing up the Legion camp. My question is, how did he blow it up? HOW DID HE FUCKIN BLOW IT UP???
Also, how can we consider it to be the something good when Charlie's speech just framed it as the something bad you gotta do to save the people you love? That is, unless we consider the detonation to be merely a result of the something good (and stupid) that Cooper did.
We know from the previous episode that what Cooper considers to be a good but stupid action is steering of your designated path to go help someone who's crying for help.
Well, Lucy wasn't crying for help but you know who kind of was? The NCR rangers in the hills. Coop seemingly dismissed them and walked away but maybe something happened off camera that we'll only learn about in the next episode.
Maybe he told the rangers about the split in the camp and the dynamite stash that he could have seen when checking for Lucy. Maybe they agreed that he'd walk in and give the Legion a (possibly fake) location of the NCR hideout and once he and Lucy were at a safe distance, the rangers would shoot at the dynamite stash (they did have long range shotguns) and blow it up to stir up a conflict between the two sides of the camp that would ultimately decimate the Legion's numbers.
me, waking from a cold sweat: what about dom pedro!?
WHAT ABOUT DOM PEDRO
Yeah, what about HIM? Also, was it him that deprived Coop of a chunk of his calf???
Cooper was right not to trust the Legion slaves but at the same time he did deserve being left there by Lucy.
Because obviously they were there as a trap for ppl like Lucy - that's why that woman brought her back to the Legion camp instead of taking a chance to run - but like... judging their tunics and saying "aren't you too far west" and then immediately killing that one guy felt a little uncalled for imo
I don’t get your take. Ghoul has been here for over 200 years and has seen all of these factions and groups formed and learned the signs of who is from where and who is danger playing victim and who is in real danger and even then the second rarely happens and if it does it comes with too many risks. Lucy leaving him was genuinely the shitty choice and he was right to call her out on it. Doing whats right no matter what doesn’t mean doing whats right only when one of the people dying or in danger seems more “moral” or “good”
Cooper did have the right to call her out bc she did choose a stranger over her companion and that stranger led her straight to the legion, but I also get why she did it.
In her eyes, there was this injured woman who Cooper literally just used as a shield. And like she said, Cooper will eventually heal, that woman won't. Not to mention Cooper has this really bad habit of being an asshole who doesn't explain anything and just expects her to listen to his demands; and Lucy is clearly getting tired of it so instead of thinking logically, she's just doing everything she can to prove him wrong and go against what he's saying. So yea, it would've been smart for her to trust his judgement, but he has been getting on her nerves since they started travelling so for her , logic is out the window and she's acting in pure spite
My partner and I yelled at Cooper attacking that man, because if he knew they were, technically, Legion, then he KNEW these two were NOT soldiers, esp the woman, but SLAVES. Not only did we find it cruel, if he'd maybe explained who they were and what the Legion tended to do to them, that it was bad enough they'd probably still do as instructed instead of running, it might have turned out better.
Yes, Cooper most certainly knew they were slaves not legionnaires so when he killed the man he didn't do it because the man posed a potential threat (which is a take I've seen making the rounds) BUT he didn't kill him out of cruelty either which Lucy, in all her lack of understanding of the ways of wasteland, failed to see. He killed him out of pragmatism but also mercy and what gave it away for me was the way in which he did it, distracting the man so that he wouldn't even realize what hit him, very much like he did with his friend Roger back in S1.
Cooper saw the man was also injured and they only had one stimpak - which they'd better keep for themselves because yes, he can heal but Lucy can't. Also, as a slave, that man was likely to meet a much worse fate at the hands of the Legion. The most humane thing he could do for both him and the woman was to take their lives, quickly and painlessly. Saving a stimpak and getting some food for himself (so he won't have to take from whatever rad-free food he got for Lucy) was an added bonus.
More theories and questions!
What if the scene with Cooper's bloody face and his words about family takes place at the very end of the season? Like they failed to find his family and he's upset, disappointed and close to give up... Ooor he had a very bad news 😲🫣 and don't know what to do next...
And can someone explain to me theory about him turning Lucy to Hank? How exactly he can do it? I really don't get it. In the scene with powerfist they are alone and Lucy is armed and even used her weapon against Cooper 😅😂 who should take her and how Cooper get what he wants. How? I'd love to read all possibilities! 🙏
Maybe he tells her that he was gonna do it but changed his mind and she got angry? Idk
Hmm... There was a scene with snake oil merchant... Maybe he had a proposition for Cooper from Hank... and he took it and than regret it and changed his mind..
Yeah I feel like Cooper won't betray Lucy to her dad after having saved her from the Legion. It's more likely that Hank will use brainwashed minions to tranq Lucy while she's momentarily separated from Cooper.
Yes! I feel exactly the same 😁
That or Lucy is not going to want Ghoul and probably Max by this point in danger again where Hank is concerned so she wants to turn herself over to Vault Tec to handle this on her own because she doesn’t want anybody else hurt or killed because of her dad
Oooh yeah that would be sooo goood! Like OMG
GUYS, HAVE YOU CONSIDERED THEY COULD BE PULLING A TROJAN HORSE ON HANK?
Lucy and Ghoul together have no way of getting anywhere close to Hank (and probably don't even know where he is exactly) but Lucy alone is a different thing. I think she might suggest that she let herself be taken to him by Dr Chicken Fucker to which Cooper either suggests they should fake an argument for added credibility OR fully objects to the idea which results in her punching him outta her way.
As for Bloody Face Cooper, it wouldn't discard the possibility that he somehow figures Barb and Janey had long died (which will turn out not to be true in later seasons anyway) and has an existential crisis
Another ghoulcy speculations
Hi all! I'm, a little overwhelmed with all the latest interviews and with anticipation for starting new season so I constantly make scenarios in my head on what we will see 🙈
I will share my thoughts with you guys and i would really like to hear from you what are your expectations or speculations for Cooper and Lucy interactions.
In the beginning of the season I think we`ll see that they are already started to develop feelings for each over. But they don't know how to express them or should they express them in the first place. Lucy is inexperienced in the matter of the real relationships and was raised in a certain way and the Ghoul, most likely, had already forgotten what it is like, and, moreover, he didn't needed it. So all the bickering and frustrations is the only way to express something or to get some reaction.
And of course they won`t have time for truly explore their feelings for each other, golden rule of the wasteland would make sure of it.
I think the tension and the attraction will be at its maximum level... and it will end up with Cooper`s flight through the window. That will separate them physically and emotionally for some time. And this will allow them to think a little about each other and what they mean to each other.
And closer to final we`ll see as Cooper goes to save Lucy (there is a chance that she will save herself though). And we will know and we will feel and see that he do it not because he needs her as leverage or a partner with a common goal, but because he needs HER.
If the season wont end on a cliffhanger i think we might see Lucy's reaction to Cooper and his reaction to her when they`ll meet again . An then… we`ll know for sure what they truly feeling for each other even if they wont act on it with some physical contact or even words. And all the most interesting stuff will happen in the next season 😅
Not to rain on anyone's parade but I think it's gonna be a while before they actually begin to even think about each other in romantic terms.
On the assumption that ghoulcy is and has always been the endgame couple of the show, I theorize their relationship will loosely follow a trajectory similar to that of a classic enemies-to-lovers rom-com from the late 1990s or early 2000s.
I'm talking movies like Six Days Seven Nights (1998) or French Kiss (1995) or Leap Year (2010) and probably a few more I can't recall right now, where two people who initially despise each other end up in a situation that forces them into proximity. As they spend time together, they begin to see each other in a different light and eventually develop feelings for each other.
An average rom-com is about 90 minutes long (sans credits). Sometimes it can be 100-110 minutes but let's stick to the 90 minutes runtime for easier calculation. The Fallout show is supposed to have 6 seasons. This means each season roughly corresponds to a quarter of an hour of a rom-com's runtime.
Here's an approximate breakdown of the relationship progress in a movie of this kind by runtime:
My dear ghoulcies, don't worry if nothing explicitly romantic happens in S2 because right now we're only 15 minutes into the rom-com and at the end of S2 we'll only be 30 minutes in, and based on all the materials we've been provided so far everything checks out.
Season 1 - 0-15 min into the rom-com
✅ Lucy and the Ghoul are introduced as mirror opposite characters
✅ Chance meeting in Filly
✅ The two of them spent a short time together. We're shown there's clear animosity between them
✅ The two of them part ways and think they will never see each other again
✅ Their respective connection to Moldaver results in a reunion at the 15 min mark and start of a collaboration to reach a common goal
Season 2 - 15-30 minutes into the rom-com
✅ As they travel to New Vegas together, Lucy and the Ghoul keep on butting heads. There's still some lingering animosity but also attempts at communication
✅ As they arrive to Vegas, probably around mid season, their relationship has improved but then something happends at the Atomic Wrangler that results in a breakup
✅ The two of them will likely reunite at the end of the season and embark on the next chapter of their quest to reach their common goal of bringing down Vault-Tec (or something like that) possibly as part of a larger team including Max and Thad
If my shipper math is correct we might see the beginning of an actual attraction as soon as S3 (30-45 min into the rom-com) and we should get a kiss towards the end of S4 (about 55-60 min into the rom-com).
In the end, what I want to say is that this relationship won't progress quite as quickly as it does in fanfics that essentially cram the entire rom-com into the two weeks or so that it takes to get from LA to Vegas but this is hardly reason enough to worry. In fact, it is almost proof that this ship might actually eventually sail.
Shout out to my bestie @perfectfangirl as it was our recent exchange in the comments that led me to coin the term "X min into the rom-com" which you are more than welcome to use to fight off antis 😉
🥰😍
😍😍
Today has been insane.
Between Walton saying THIS and Ella saying that Lucy and the Ghoul are like an old married couple, they love each other but they hate each other and you can’t help but root for them?!??? I’m in ghoulcy heaven right now
Lucy and Ghoul are like two ships lost at sea.
Lucy is the ship that has only ever stayed safely docked in port and now it's on its virgin voyage. It's in prime condition, stocked up on fuel and with a full crew. But that crew is inexperienced at navigating the sea and the ship is at potential risk of crashing and sinking.
Ghoul is the ship that left port a long time ago. The captain may know navigation but they'd lost their crew, the ship is old and battered and the fuel is running low. The ship is at high risk of going adrift and getting lost at sea.
Lucy ship can lend some crew members and fuel to the Ghoul ship, and the captain of the Ghoul ship can lend their expertise to the crew of Lucy ship so that they can avoid the icebergs and pirates and mermaids.
Alone, each of these ships is due to succumb to the sea but together... together they can both safely sail back to port.
6 days until Season 2
Why do I feel like I can hear both of their internal dialogue after Cooper asked Lucy for water?
Lucy's just thinking "Wait, are you asking me for water? After what you put me through, you actually trust that I'm going to share the water? So you trust me?"
Cooper's immediate thought afterwards is "Take it, after that shit you pulled, she's gonna dump it out on the ground and then neither of you will have water!"
And Lucy looked like she was actually gonna hand it over to him too if he didn't snatch it like a rude little asshole :(
Considering this clip was played as Ella was talking about how she's learning not to share her (presumably clean) water and not to drink irradiated one, I'd argue the internal dialogue goes more like :
Lucy: You want water? That water that we just acquired at a great expense and that you specifically told me NOT TO SHARE WITH ANYONE because clean water is such a rare and valuable resource? And now you ask me to share some? Is this a test?
Ghoul: goddammit woman, I'm parched! When I told you not to share it, I didn't mean WITH ME! Now gimme here!
not a lucyghoul person in That Way™, but a lucyghoul in the "these ppl are stuck at opposite ends of spectrum of societal violence and only they will be able to drag one another to the middle point of said spectrum at which point they will have transformed into the ppl they have to become if they want to build the better world they originally thought they would build" way. because he was the face used to sell the lie she then went onto to live in at the expense of all others. she is the living breathing result of his refusal to fight vault-tec when he had the chance. so he went and became something as far away from a vaultie as anyone could get as penance but that's not real atonement, it's running away!!!!! so it has to be Lucy, theeee vaultie who believes in the vaults more than anyone else we meet, that drags the Ghoul forward into actually facing his role in killing the world and he has to be the one who pushes her into facing the lie BECAUSE HE IS VERY LITERALLY THE FACE OF THAT LIE. so it has to be them that exposes the lie, who kills this version of the world. This is not me making a shipper post btw I don't adhere to that I'm perfectly capable of wanting to fuck the ghoul without a proxy I'm talking about The Narrative. I'm talking about two characters who are each the nightmare the other had a hand in making true and are the only ones who can wake each other the fuck up. can anyone here me?? anyone else out there??? helloooo
I HEAR YOU SIS!
Honestly, you just put into words something that's been bouncing around my own skull ever since I watched (and rewatched) S1. I'm not one to care whether characters actually smooch or not on a show - if I wanna see them smooch I know there exists fan content out there where that happens - but I find myself invested in ghoulcy in the sense that their relationship - whether it ever involves any smooching or not - feels absolutely crucial for their respective arcs and the show's narrative as a whole. I mean, he unwittingly had a hand at the creation of this entire fucked up vault project and she is, just as unwittingly, the very outcome of it. The very intentional way in which these two are connected before they even meet is just too damn poetic for it to be inconsequential.
Inspired by THIS PHOTO of Ella and Walton, posted by @emmcarstairs
Another Voice - Prologue
BACK TO MASTERPOST
AO3 SOURCE
So I decided to go through with the idea of turning my fanfic into a comicbook. I was already toying with it when I was writing the story since I like to draw and had a very clear visual of everyone and everything I was writing about. Then recently I discovered some of my older concept art was reposted without my knowledge to pinterest and people thought it was from a comicbook and wanted to read it. So I thought I'd give them what they want and have some fun along the way.
If you like PotO and graphic novels this might be the thing for you.
To keep things in order I created a separate subaccount @anothervoice-phancomic so if you're interested, please follow that one since updates will be posted there. If you have questions or comments, leave an ask on my main @jadeite-art
There also exists an older version of this intro sequence but I hated it so I made this new one which is much nicer