[jdsquared]

Chullin 30a

[flowerpowergoth]

Does the Dudley Moore and Peter Cook fandom still exist? I’m new here!

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Well excuse my Animal Farm erotica. It said “Reading Room.” I didn’t know it was limited to Christian Science related material.

[maimonideznuts]

Ministerial panel to vote on bill that would bar citizenship for non-Orthodox converts

Reform movement leader: 'Government slamming door in the faces' of Diaspora Jews amid rising antisemitism; MK Rabbi Kariv: Move would 'colla

Reform movement leader: ‘Government slamming door in the faces’ of Diaspora Jews amid rising antisemitism;

MK Rabbi Kariv: Move would ‘collapse the bridge’ between Israel and Diaspora

[robot-roadtrip-rants]

If they turn their backs on us like this, we should turn our backs on them.

[maimonideznuts]

By "they" do we mean the Haredi parties, HaTzionut HaDatit, Otzma Yehudit, and Likud? Because I've literally never liked or endorsed anyone in this far right regressive coalition brought together because Bibi is allergic to giving up power and he calculated that he could scrape his way to staying in government for another term by assembling an Avengers team of the worst people imaginable from the pariah fringes of politics.

Because if you interpret this as Israel or "the Orthodox" are doing this, and turn your back there then you're doing exactly what minority zealots of the political and religious kind are trying to get you to do.

If this law passes, and I am praying that it doesn't, you can and should be pushing to overturn it. If you want to put money behind progressive politics in Israel you can donate to groups like the New Israel Fund to name one I suggest. A dollar or a euro here and there makes a difference.

[robot-roadtrip-rants]

Yeah, I should know how a lunatic minority can ruin a country, seeing how I live in the US. But also, I can't get over how unequal the relationship between Israel and the Diaspora feels.

So much of the community is invested in Israel. We defend it in politics, we teach our kids Modern Hebrew, we visit the nation, listen to the music, so on and so forth. My God, we're talking about like we live there now and--well, I don't know where you live, but I live in the US. And this is normal for Diaspora Jews. Ok, sure, whatever.

But it feels like so little of that is returned. There doesn't seem to be much Israeli interest in antisemitism against the Diaspora, except "make aliya" as a solution. I don't want to make aliya! I want to live in the country I was born in! I keep thinking about the time my Jewish school took my class to Poland, and how we kept running into Israeli classes while we were there, and I don't need to tell you what we were doing because it's fucking obvious. Like, we were literally running into them at Auschwitz. And then I think about how Poland was only the start of the trip, how Israel was the REAL purpose of that trip, about Birthright and all the other organizations us Diaspora Jews have created to visit and connect with Israel, and I think...hey, where are the Israeli trips to New York and Paris and Amsterdam and Buenos Aires? Why do their classes only visit the places of Jewish death in the Diaspora, and never the places of Jewish life?

Antisemitism has been getting worse and worse for the past decade, but I don't see Israeli politicians calling it out, I see them snuggling up to the same politicians who are normalizing antisemitic discourse on the right. And yeah, said Israeli politicians are right-wing extremists, I am well aware of the scum Netanyahu scraped off his shoe to make the current government, I know they aren't representative of all or even most of the Israeli population. But at the end of the day, enough people voted for The Worst Parties Ever that Netanyahu was able to cobble a coalition out of it. Enough Jews in the Jewish state have no problem with their prime minister playing footsie with the likes of Orban while the Diaspora is screaming its head off. And, like, that's just a reality I have to learn to accept, the same way I had to learn to accept that a not insignificant part of my county would raucously cheer on a rapist conman right up until gas prices started going up.

Idk, maybe it's ridiculous to expect Israelis to keep up with everything...except, I have been surrounded by Israeli discourse my entire fucking life, from Oslo to Gaza I have watched everyone around me tear their hair out as they discuss Israeli politics in minute detail, because we care, we care so goddamn much. Is it too much to ask for Israelis to tear their hair out over the ongoing state of antisemitism in the rest of the world? To discuss the current trends and rising waves? To press their politicians for actions, the same way we press ours? Okay, I don't actually wish this level of stress on anyone, but you get what I mean.

A year and a half ago the richest man in the world sieg heil'd twice, with great energy and deliberation, at the inauguration of my country's president. It was fucking terrifying. I remember reading articles about how Germans grafitti'd a Tesla factory after that, and Italians burning an effigy of Musk, which is how you should react when someone sieg heils at an inauguration of a major world power. And I remember going through the English language Israeli papers and all I found were articles describing what happened and a few tepid denoucements from assorted politicians. No protests, no calls for boycotts, nothing. Oh, except for the prime minister of the Jewish state ran to defend his Nazi buddy, which also didn't seem to provoke much of a reaction. I tried to tell myself that the Hebrew language papers probably had more, that the war in Gaza was devouring everyone attention, but nothing plugged the pain of being stabbed in the heart. And this has nagged at me so much since. Netanyahu dickriding Nazis is par for the course tbh, I was more shocked by the ADL. But why was the Israeli population so silent? Why was the general response so muted?

This relationship is all give and no take. I'm exhausted. I need to take care of myself, and I need to take care of my community, and right now the message I have gotten from Israel's leaders and people alike is that I'm all alone on that front. Incidentally, I don't appreciate being scolded for not understanding more and giving more, when the reason I am so exhausted is that I've already given so goddamn much of my life to this cause. "You're doing exactly what minority zealots want you to do"--yeah, maybe, but sometimes you gotta walk away from someone spiraling bad, because you'll destroy yourself trying to save them.

[rose-in-a-fisted-glove]

Okay, but here's the deal. Israel is one of nearly 200 countries. You don't need to have any different relationship with the nation-state of Israel than you do with any other country.

From what you're saying, you have no direct ties to modern Israel, no family, no friends living there. There is absolutely nothing wrong with treating modern Israel exactly the same as any other country that has a sizable Jewish population.

You can simply walk away. No guilt or excuses needed.

[jdsquared]

No we cannot walk away.

We ARE Israel.

The Jewish people are a People. That’s what “am Yisrael” means. That’s what “bnei Yisrael” means. We are a tribe. We are Israelites. The descendants of the Israelites.

THAT’S what Zionism means — it’s the understanding that we are a people, just like the Cherokee, just like the Irish, just like the Japanese.

It’s like saying, fine, be Irish, but why do you have to involve Ireland in it?

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Chullin 4a

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Menachot 104a

[jewish-hot-takes]

I’m honestly so extremely over having to pretend that Reform, Conservative, etc are valid movements. They aren’t. It isn’t Judaism. There may be some Jews in the movements, but the movements aren’t Jewish and the “converts” aren’t Halachically Jewish. If you don’t want to keep Jewish law, don’t convert to the “keeping Jewish law” religion. If you want to pick and choose how you keep Jewish law, don’t convert to the “keeping Jewish law” religion. If you think Jewish law isn’t binding, don’t convert to the “keeping Jewish law” religion! I’m so over it. Orthodoxy (a term Conservative and Reform Jews have placed on us, by the way!) is simply the framework in which Jewish law eternally binding and unchanging…aka Judaism. Creating a whole new religion where Jewish law isn’t binding or is able to be changed as you please is not Judaism, it’s a whole new religion masquerading as Jewish. Please stop acting like contracts can just be amended by one party without the consent of the other party.

This is going to piss a lot of people off but sorry I don’t know what to tell you. You went the route of essentially going to a non-accredited university and now you’re mad that your useless degree can’t get you into law school. 🤷‍♀️

..

[jewishgay4il]

anon i assure you orthodoxy did not exist 200 years ago the way you think it did lmao

[diamondsandphoenixfire]

Per the Talmud, conversion necessitates only:

mikveh,

brit milah as applicable,

a sacrifice while the Temple stands (not currently) and

learning / motivation / beit din (bundling these because the beit din judges learning and motivation so they’re kind of inextricable).

Therefore, halachically, converts who undergo these steps are fully Jewish.

Non-Orthodox converts do this.

They are fully, halachically Jewish.

End of.

Per Halacha at least.

Orthodoxy has added its own reinterpretations. And I’m not opposed to new interpretation in general, I believe that each generation adds to our knowledge, we learn more and improve, etc etc, but to pretend that Orthodoxy is More Authentic or somehow Unchanged is asinine.

Examples:

the Talmud specifically accepts conversion for the purposes of marriage (Yevamot 24b:6), whereas Orthodox Jewish groups today do not

the Talmud does not say you have to send your children to Jewish as opposed to public schools in order to be a valid convert but Orthodox Jewish groups today do

Charedi clothes are not ancient Israelite clothes. They were not wearing fur hats and black coats in ancient Judea.

the Talmud also indicates that many people had pretty limited Jewish knowledge immediately post conversion, indicating that the Orthodox practice of only converting people once they are up to community standards is novel

And again, I don’t think it’s wrong that Orthodoxy has its own interpretations of Halacha, just as Reform and Conservative do. We are one people but we are not automatons who always think and feel and need the same things. Someone needed to figure out how to navigate electricity, airplanes, IVF, chemotherapy, and other things that did not exist in Talmudic times.

Just generally, I think that every person on earth would benefit from sitting awhile with the concept of “with very few exceptions, everyone always thinks they’re right.” That’s just being a person. Most people don’t wake up in the morning and go “you know what? I’m going to be a bad person.” Or “I’m going to do Judaism wrong.” Definitely people do that. But we all think we’re right. We’re all only human.

Anyway, Nonnie, if YOU want to cut YOURSELF off from us, I can’t stop you but… We all think we’re right. You’re not special for that. 

[jdsquared]

It’s all well and good to demand people not join the “keep Jewish law” religion, but when it’s law defined by the “G-d whispered it in my ear at Sinai” people, it’s less convincing. I didn’t join, I was born, though of course, Jewish law says a convert is a Jew. But I was taught to be proud that Jews didn’t have to listen to what a Pope says or any what any intercessor claimed G-d secretly imparted to them specially.

But as long as we’re listening, I wish the Anonymous OP would answer Isaiah’s question.

Is this the fast that I desire?

Halachic law of the Torah is no more what the Jewish people’s heritage is about than the ethics of the Prophets. Traditional ritual observance doesn’t make you more of a Jew than loving your neighbor as yourself, for we were strangers in the land of Egypt.

Is not this the fast that G-d requires?

To unlock the fetters of wickedness, and untie the cords of the yoke to let the oppressed go free; to break off every yoke.

To share your bread with the hungry, and to take the wretched poor into your home; when you see the naked, to clothe him.

That which is abhorrent to you, do not do to your fellow.

The rest is commentary.

[maimonideznuts]

I think people forget that the matrilineal tradition in Judaism is a decision that was decided on after an existing thousand+ years of patrilineal inheritance in Jewish society, a decision made due to the then relevant circumstances of living under Roman Occupation... Also a fuck you to King Herod the Mad during his reign, who was himself a patrilineal Jew.

There's no Great Sanhedrin today to issue a formal ruling to settle the question of dual inheritance, but we're capable of coming to a new consensus on the issue. I think clever people within the Orthodox community can present responsa to re-set the table, so to speak.

I am biased, I am already of the opinion that Patrilineal Jews should be counted in the Minyan.

[jdsquared]

I love the phrase “reset the table” and plan to start using it.

So many tribespeople have it in their heads that things that were evolving for a thousand years and only ossified within the last couple hundred or less were handed down at Sinai. “Judaism” isn’t defined by 16th century Joseph Karo, 17th century Poland, or 21st century frumier than thou mongers.

And, @maimonideznuts , I wouldn’t even limit ourselves to clever people in the Orthodox community to help. The 16th century author of Adon Olam had no more right to add to our piyut liturgy than Debbie Friedman.

[jdsquared]

Menachot 99a

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Menachot 97b

[ellewantsrevenge]

aadam jacobs's archive

[jdsquared]

It’s like no one ever saw the very special episode of What’s Happening?

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Menachot 93b

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