Not sure how to drop a line in tumblr or even how to use it. Just dropping a line to let you know I am glad to hear you are doing well. Love upstate NY and wish I could have had a job there. Being outside the Orthodox Jewish bubble may help examining the cult more objectively. The longer you are away, the crazier the cult seems. BTW my blog has had a link to your tumblr for years.
This counts as dropping a line, lol
So true about being away making it easier to see how crazy it is.
How would you define these terms: "physical realm" and "spiritual realm"?
I suppose it would depend on the context in which it was being used. Off the top of my head, I’d call the “physical realm” that which interacts with things we can touch. Matter and energy, for instance. “Spiritual realm” would be all that doesn’t fit into that.
But again, they’re just words. What matters is what people mean when they use them, so context is very important.
Atheism has featured prominently in the news over the past week — and for all the wrong reasons. It turns out that...
Wow, the author, Pini Dunner, is such an idiotic asshat.
I hardly know where to begin:
1. This guy relies almost exclusively on anecdotal data. Not just in this article, but in the few of his I browsed. Does he not realize how invalid that is?
Let’s look at some actual data on religion and violent crime:
Citing four different studies, Zuckerman states: "Murder rates are actually lower in more secular nations and higher in more religious nations where belief in God is widespread." He also states: "Of the top 50 safest cities in the world, nearly all are in relatively non-religious countries."
Within the United States, we see the same pattern. Citing census data, he writes: "And within America, the states with the highest murder rates tend to be the highly religious, such as Louisiana and Alabama, but the states with the lowest murder rates tend to be the among the least religious in the country, such as Vermont and Oregon."
And these findings are not limited to murder rates, as rates of all violent crime tend to be higher in "religious" states. Zuckerman also points out that atheists are very much under-represented in the American prison population (only 0.2%).
2. “ It seems that while atheism may be an increasing phenomenon across the world, rather than attracting the cream of intelligentsia as its foot soldiers, the most vocal atheists are increasingly found among the belligerent fringes “
Now I personally don’t actually care whether atheists do represent the “cream of intelligensia” bc that wouldn’t really matter. But it’s idiotic to pretend that non-believers don’t represent a huge percentage of the intellectual community. For instance, Pew found that scientists are around 10x less likely to believe in god or a higher power than the general public (x). Among philosophers - certainly an important part of the “intelligensia” - non-belief is at 62% (x)! Atheists are also more likely to obtain a college degree or a post-college degree than the national average (x). And “ Overall, Zuckerman, Silberman, and Hall conclude that, according to their meta-analysis, there is little doubt a significant negative correlation exists (i.e. people who are more religious score worse on varying measures of intelligence).” (x)
But I’m sure Pini and his minyan at schul, and the orthodox community in general, is just chock full of the “cream of intelligensia”.
3. This guy is really dumb. Exhibit A, from the article:
“As I have written elsewhere, militant Islam, as promoted by groups such as Al Qaeda and ISIS, is just another branch of Godless atheism.“
4. “ I was reminded of the correlation between the excesses of human violence and nihilistic atheism by a Midrash on the story of Esau...”
So he’s now moved from anecdotes to actual ancient stereotypes. Brilliant.
5. “ Over the years I have discovered that atheism is no less a belief system than religion, requiring similar if not greater leaps of faith for it to make any sense.”
Riiiiiiiight. And what belief, specifically, does atheism necessitate? Oh, that’s right: None.
6. I was actually going to write some more about some of his other posts, but they’re literally too dumb to respond to. Most that I saw did not have a central point, or evidence, just blathering till a surprise assertion at the end. What an asshat.
gaythreatheyy: i need some help so when i first discovered my ancestry and that my dads side of the family is jewish (ashkenazi jewish to be exact) i began identifiying as jewish too. i knew a lot of jews who said ''g-d'' instead of god and i thought ok ill use it also but.. i dont really believe in judaism ? and i wanna identify as jewish atheist, is it ok to use god instead of g-d if im a jew atheist
Hey, thanks for the question, sorry I didn’t respond sooner.
I think that it’s ok for you to write “god”, but if you want to be extra considerate when writing to orthodox jews, you could add the dash, but I don’t think it’s rude if you don’t.
getlaidgetfucked: So what is your take on the yeshiva rambam protesting outside of this 92 year olds nazi guard apartment building this past week? Do you really think that is in the guidelines of ever forget? Do you feel it is acceptable behavior?
Feels like it’s beating a dead horse to me. There are better uses of time and protest power than picking on this old guy. That said, hard to have that much sympathy for a Nazi.
Have you heard of Anthony Magnabosco and his street epistemology? He has a YouTube channel with conversations with random people and basically just ask them questions to explain their beliefs, rather than using counter-apologetics, which often ends up with them not being as confident in their religion. (I'm not affiliated with him in any way.) I think his method might be useful, and I wonder what you think about that sort of thing.
firstly, hi. digging your blog so far.
So I hadn’t heard of him before, and just watched a few youtube videos and checked out his website. to be honest, I’m not into it.
Firstly, the “interviewer” seems less interested in interviews, and more interested in guiding people to his particular beliefs. His goal is to initiate (what often feel like, uncomfortable) conversations in which he challenges people’s religious beliefs. Personally, that kinda feels like what many missionary types do. It’s annoying for most people. (Not me, I generally love that kind of stuff.) And I’m usually not keen on annoying people, (especially to challenge something as personal as their religious beliefs).
It also feels annoying bc there’s a sort of power imbalance, where he’s had plenty of time to consider his position (and as the interviewer, he gets to guide the conversation), and these people are basically unsuspecting, unprepared civilians. (If they were missionaries, or protesting abortion clinics, then I’d be absolutely into his approach bc they would be showing their interest in putting their faith on display. Alternatively, if he was genuinely interviewing them, not leading them. That would be of some interest.)
Secondly, I don’t see it doing much to actually change minds. Maybe I’m wrong - and there are exceptions, of course, people who might be positively effected by it - but my impression is that it won’t make much of an impact on most people. Cause really, it’s not all that different than the barrage of faith challenges that believers already experience daily. And that’s exactly how I imagine it would feel to them: Another atheist trying to tell them how they should think. And I’m sure it’s just as annoying for them, as it can be for us when the roles are reversed.
All of those make the ‘interviews’ feel a bit antagonistic. So, while I wouldn’t call it bad, it’s not the kind of thing I’d do in this way.
And really, I’m past the point where I’m trying to pursue believers to guide them toward rationality. That’s not my role. (It’s actually a huge responsibility: you could change their lives, and not necessarily for the better.) Instead, I believe in providing information, being honest, and respectful of people (even if I don’t respect their ideas). And it’s also what I’d ask for in return. However, if someone asks, I’ll discuss. I’ll even probe. I’m more than happy to discuss religion and why I’m an atheist. But it needs the right context and the street approach, to me, doesn’t feel like it.
This is my answer to anyone who say anything along the lines of this. “oh you should speak to ‘this and this rabbi’, he can totally answer your questions.”
I always ask these people, “Doesn’t it bother you that you don’t know yourself, what the reasons…
The more I read about the off the derech (OTD) community, the more I realize that the only folks who truly go off the derech are the ones who simply fade out to nothing. Those folks don’t go to F…
Saw this idiocy by chance and wanted to respond:
The more I read about the off the derech (OTD) community, the more I realize that the only folks who truly go off the derech are the ones who simply fade out to nothing. Those folks don’t go to Footsteps, they don’t write anonymous blogs about their angst, and they don’t belong to Facebook groups bragging about how they ate 5 forms of chazer at an all you can eat buffet in China Town, stopped off for a dime bag and a bottle of Henny in an alley behind Duane Reade, and scoured the Craigslist Casual Encounters ads on their mobile phone until they found a willing troupe of midgets from the Coney Island Circus Sideshow wanting to party.
The only people who are truly off the derech are the ones who have let everything go, including griping about the ills of the frum community.
oh man, where to begin?!
1. I think she’s conflating three different things: Being irreligious, developing a secular life, and having moved on emotionally and psychologically from one’s being religious. They’re not the same the thing at all. But being OTD simply means irreligious. Nothing more. So, we could stop right here and say her thesis is wrong. But let’s go on.
2. It’s a process. I consider myself someone who the article author would now classify as OTD, but when I began my journey, definitely fell into some of her stereotypes. For instance, would likely have gone to Footsteps if I knew they were around when I began. I did (/do) write an anonymous blog explaining my issues with judaism, and I did have my moments reveling in the fact that I can now eat pork like a normal person (and without any emotional stomach churning). I don’t really do that anymore, as I feel I have finally gotten over the ordeal, but it took a damn long time. It seems to me the author has no appreciation of how these can be a form of liberation and therapy and helpful for the process.
3. “... scoured the Craigslist Casual Encounters ads on their mobile phone until they found a willing troupe of midgets from the Coney Island Circus Sideshow wanting to party.” I’m not even sure how to react to this. It’s SOOO over the top. In trying to make sense of it, the best I can come up with is that the author now shares judaism decades (centuries?) old outlook on sexuality, and so anyone bragging that they got laid (which is a big deal when you grow up with ortho mores) is a sign that they’re a perverted sexual deviant. But basically, I think that line says more about the author than the people she’s trying to malign.
All that being said, if the author had merely argued that being OTD is ‘fully achieved’ when one truly puts all that behind them, she’d still be wrong, but it wouldn’t be insulting and demonstrate massive ignorance. So let’s keep going.
As I have shared before, I didn’t grow up religious... I became religious to enhance the good life I already had. For myself, if I were to go off the derech, I would literally go off onto my own life. If I chose to leave the community, I would leave without further engagement.
4. Shocking news here: People are different. What you (suppose you) would do is not necessarily the same for someone else. Especially if you are someone who didn’t grow up religious and adopted it for yourself, at your own pace, in your own time. And simply having feelings about the community in which you were raised doesn’t mean you’re not OTD; it just means that you still have feelings about them (whether positive or negative).
Which is why I have to wonder if the OTD community is merely another religious/social movement in and of itself? From what I can gather from social media sites like Facebook and Twitter, people involved in the OTD movement (is movement an apropos term?) have certain expectations of their members. Some of the lesser expectations involve embracing values such as political liberalism, environmentalism, atheism, and the authority of science.
5. I suppose she might just be using the phrase colloquially, but I get really annoyed at the ‘not-religion is still religion’ notion. Yes, there are commonalities amongst people who are OTD (or atheist), but they’re not required. There are no requirements for being OTD other than being irreligious (or even just heading down the path of irreligiousity).
6. But why the commonalities? Well, typically, they’re simply the result of having a free mind to consider those issues again. (e.g. “Should I trust science? I was raised to doubt science bc it contradicted the torah. But now I don’t believe the torah is correct... so why should I not trust science again?” Or, “Should I care about the environment. I used to not care bc I believed god would take care of everything. But now I don’t believe that, so.... holy crap, we better take care of the environment ourselves!)
In addition to the OTDer’s new found secular enlightenment, a major expectation for group members is irreverence for their former way of life. This includes a general lack of respect for former rabbinic and community leaders who have wronged them.
7. Again, not an expectation in the sense of a requirement, but an expectation bc why would you, for instance, respect a rabbi or community leader who has wrong you or others, sometimes in horrific ways?! Why would you respect a way of life that you think is wrong, and seen from that perspective, is rather ridiculous. Just consider someone shlugging kapparos with a chicken; for anyone who doesn’t believe, that is a bat-shit crazy thing to do, and is rightfully viewed with the same amusement as how religious people view many of the activities or lifestyles of other religions.
To me, going off the derech means freeing yourself from the chains of the rigid communal rules and expectations of orthodoxy.
Again, if the author had merely made this assertion, I would have disagreed, but we’d be having an entirely different conversation.
How is the OTD movement any different from ultra orthodox Judaism at its core, if it becomes yet another society with rigid rules and expectations? Expectations, which, if they aren’t met, earn its members ridicule or shunning... Again, I have no gripe against the off the derech community. I think it’s a healthy thing to form connections with other people who share similar experiences. My question is simply whether or not OTD folks are exchanging one religion for another?
8. Again, there are no rules, let alone rigid ones. And yes, if some OTDer has a strange worldview, then other OTDers might disagree and even mock, but it’s ridiculous to call that a religion. A religion is so much more. It’s indoctrination from youth. It’s restrictions that, if broken, are said to put the person in danger (i.e. hell). It’s an entire world-view and life-style. Being OTD is just one part of these people’s lives. What the author is describing is a criticism one might make of a club. (”Oh, all those people think the same way!”) But a club is not a religion. And if some OTDer doesn’t fit with a particular group of OTDers, that person can find another. Just like I, as an atheist, have found different groups of atheists, some of which I relate to more than others.
How do I tell My parents I'm an atheist despite me growing up Jewish. (I'm 16, in live with a girl and they're what I would consider 'super Jews'
Sorry for the late response:
Honestly, there’s no set answer, but here’s what I would recommend:
Help ease them into realizing you’re not religious, and later an atheist. Don’t just spill it out one day.
Alternatively, if you’re 16 and still reliant on your family, you may want to keep that to yourself until you’re self-sufficient. Try to get a job and a place of your own when you’re 18. I know, it’s not ideal, but neither is having your family abandon you when you can’t support yourself.
Please tell me, Why a Converstive Jewish boy would date non Jewish women; then tell them, you have to be jewish for him to be serious. Why doesn’t he date jewish? It seems unfair for the girl. Btw I love your humor, we could so be friends! I’m agnostic as well and I’m very sarcastic!
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Seems kinda dumb to me, but to be fair, I hear stories from people of a variety of religious backgrounds doing similar things.
My father is Jewish and my whole life, I've been brought up with Jewish holidays, culture, history, and beliefs, but I have always identified as an atheist. I haven't had a bat mitzvah, so I'm not officially a Jew (my mother is not Jewish), but I would like to be one. Do you think I could still have a bat mitzvah even though I plan on being a secular Jew? Do you think a bat mitzvah would even be necessary?
Well, there’s a lot involved in that question.
Firstly, bat mtizvah really just means that you turned 12 years old. You don’t really need to do anything. It just happens.
As to whether you’d like to be a secular “jew”, that’s really up to you as to how you’d like to define it. Some sects (e.g. orthodox) say that jewishness is passed from the mother only, while other sects are more open. So, according to at least some sects, you already are jewish (though, ironically, those sects are typically the ones that see ‘becoming bar/bat mitzvah’ as a process, not just an age thing).
But if you ask me, it sounds like you already have a jewish identity, so if you consider yourself a secular jew, it would seem legit to me.
If you really have such big problems with all this stuff, please make a video with a respected orthodox Rabbi where you bring everything up, and post it.
yeah, I’ve already done that (sans the video). I never got decent answers and am really quite content and convinced of my current position. But I welcome you to bring up any of the issues I make here and to forward their replies. I promise I will address their responses.
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