Just Another Syscourse Blog

Attempting to dispel myths and misconceptions about DID/OSDD, and their relation (or lack thereof) to Endos and Tulpas

[justanothersyscourse]

Don't be shy!

Interact with me! Got a concept or fact you want discussed or possibly debunked? Hit me up! Do you have a fun fact you want to share? I want to hear it! Do you have questions? Let's find the answers! Want to suggest a topic for discussion? Please do!

I'm open to all syscourse (come at me, bro), general inquiries, random tomfoolery, and I'm always looking to learn things myself.

Quick-find for some of my resources below the cut:

Work in progress, links being added

10% are non-traumagenic?

On Being Disordered - PT 1

On Integration and Fusion

Demedicalize Plurality?? Absolutely NOT

What Is– And Isn’t– Trauma

A follow up to Trauma

How do alters choose names?

A Follow Up to Clinical Distress and Impairment

Trauma as a criteria

I swear to God - debunking cultural and spiritual exclusions

What to look for when seeking therapy and diagnosis

Difference between OSDD 1a and 1b

[sysmedsaresexist]

I think every single anti psych person needs to have a patient either shit on them or throw shit at them before they talk about psych reform

In all seriousness, volunteer somewhere, experience both sides before you form your opinion

Remind yourself what other people's daily reality can look like, how much help some members of our community need, and see firsthand how understaffed, difficult, and traumatizing working in the mental health field can be

Compassion fatigue, vicarious traumatization, secondary traumatization, secondary stress disorder, insidious trauma and vicarious trauma are all terms that are used in an attempt to label and define what happens, why it happens, and how to live healthily with the experiences... and to preserve the strength of counsellors and advocates.

Guidebook on Vicarious Trauma: Recommended Solutions for Anti-Violence Workers (PDF, careful on phone)

I bet you didn't even know secondary traumatic stress disorder was a real thing experienced by ROUGHLY HALF OF ALL THERAPISTS

It's part of the reason I had to leave the field. I was too young be hearing some of what I was hearing. I went into the field at 20. I wasn't ready.

We need more trained, competent mental health workers 👏👏👏👏 not less

[justanothersyscourse]

@cambriancrew

Moving to this blog so I don't clog up feeds, Tumblr's block feature is so broken and I can only see the little comment notification but it has me so curious LOL

Mind reblogging with your response? I genuinely want to see what you said

[syscoursebrackets-2025-finished]

To Honor our Past

The first thing I had planned after the brackets were finished was a bonus round. This will not affect the 2025 winner — Freezing Cold System Takes took the win, no questions asked.

But there was one individual who was nominated no less than 5 times before I had to make a post about it. And I think it’s only fair to see what happens.

Who’s the better syscourser?

Sysmedsaresexist

Freezingcoldsystemtakes

Voting ended onMay 19, 2025

[sysmedsaresexist]

Ahem-hem.

Greetings, fellow headmates, heartfolk, and curious onlookers!

I'm running for President of Syscourseria-- the title of Best Syscourser in the system community. Why? Because I believe in systemhood, plurality, unity, and most importantly… quality memes and warm takes.

What qualifies me to be president of Syscourse? Well, I come with not just experience-- but experiences, plural. I've got a full internal cabinet ready to go, complete with wildly differing opinions, snack preferences, and at least one personality who insists on being called "CEO of Vibes." Whether it’s navigating academic theories or deciding which one of us left the lights on, I've got a whole think tank in my head. You want diverse perspectives? I've got them-- sometimes all at once. Voting on initiatives? We've already had three internal elections and a group chat meltdown. I'm basically a walking committee, and that's what makes me perfect for the job.

I've won twice before, how bad could it be?

I'm here to represent all kinds of systems: DID, OSDD, endogenic, median, ones I can't pronounce-- if you've got headmates, I've got hugs.

Under my leadership, I promise:

A ban on gatekeeping disguised as "concern."

Free headspace renovations for all systems (open floor plans encouraged).

And weekly community cuddle piles — consent required, dissociation optional.

Let's talk about my opponent, Freezing Cold System Takes. The only candidate brave enough to say "who cares about plurality" while in a plural tag. If you want leadership that's more lukewarm chaos and less frostbitten ideology, I think the choice is pretty clear.

They've proposed policies like:

Mandatory amnesia checks at every roleplay checkpoint

"Inner world license exams." (We barely passed real driving, okay?)

Mandating all system members clock in and out like it's a psychic punch card

And their signature catchphrase: "I'm just saying what everyone's thinking."

Freezing Cold System Takes has some truly innovative policies-- like their plan to standardize inner world time zones, as if our brains needed more scheduling conflicts. They also want to install a "vibe check checkpoint" between switches-- because nothing promotes mental wellness like being interrogated by the Internal Revenue of Stability. And don't forget their initiative to assign every alter a job title-- because nothing builds trust like telling your demon protector they're now the Assistant Manager of Emotional Regulation.

Well, maybe we're all thinking it's time for a warmer take!

In conclusion, if elected, I promise to be:

Chaotic but kind.

Educational, but with memes.

And above all, someone who sees the whole system-- not just the fronters.

Vote for me, your friendly neighborhood syscourser. Together, we'll build a community where everyone-- yes, even the inner world gremlins-- feels seen, heard, and slightly overstimulated in a loving way.

Thank you, and may your switches be smooth and your headspace have Wi-Fi.

@freezingcoldsystemtakes your turn 😏

[august-zip]

do you have any sources on your "colin ross killed people" statement? or are you just gonna claim things? because if so i can claim he also killed my grandmother on my grandpa's side!

Yes.

here is a link.

Here is another link, listing the various things Ross has done.

And a full listing with the cite here

So yes. I do have sources. I have quite a few. What do you have to say now, anon?

- Robin

[justanothersyscourse]

So we have... a word press link. You know, like a blog.

Your second link is another blog, this time the blog of TST and GF leader. Nice.

That last link, the affidavit, TST became involved with Bergen before the affidavit was made. He's three people removed from Ross and has an extreme conflict of interest. Ross isn't even named in the MAJORITY of the complaints. The entire suit was thrown out for wasting the courts' time, and the affidavit is maintained by the TST and GF.

By the way, Ross made the goggles for a contest. It was a joke.

Like you!

He won an award for worst invention or something.

Get over yourself and check your sources and the events surrounding them.

[justanothersyscourse]

I think you misunderstand what I was talking to Ross about. I went to Ross to talk about his paper from the 80s where he talked about patients without dysfunction and abuse histories. And I said, "surely, doctor Ross, you're not talking about these filthy endos, right? You meant TRAUMA histories-- expanding the list of typical types of abuse that cause DID? Important DID history, right?"

And he basically responded with, "I said what I said, no abuse OR trauma histories. It's actually kind of common. What's the big deal? DID is caused by trauma, but that's not the only way."

I told him EVERYTHING. About tumblr, syscourse, both sides' talking points. I didn't hold back.

And I held on to that conversation for... about 2 years while I continued to talk to other doctors and researchers-- Clayton, Loewenstein, some less known ones but still... Doctors.

Not one denied the possibility or existence of "those horrible fucking endos" that I was so mad about.

Why don't you try it? If you're so sure?

[august-zip]

do you have any sources on your "colin ross killed people" statement? or are you just gonna claim things? because if so i can claim he also killed my grandmother on my grandpa's side!

Yes.

here is a link.

Here is another link, listing the various things Ross has done.

And a full listing with the cite here

So yes. I do have sources. I have quite a few. What do you have to say now, anon?

- Robin

[justanothersyscourse]

So we have... a word press link. You know, like a blog.

Your second link is another blog, this time the blog of TST and GF leader. Nice.

That last link, the affidavit, TST became involved with Bergen before the affidavit was made. He's three people removed from Ross and has an extreme conflict of interest. Ross isn't even named in the MAJORITY of the complaints. The entire suit was thrown out for wasting the courts' time, and the affidavit is maintained by the TST and GF.

By the way, Ross made the goggles for a contest. It was a joke.

Like you!

He won an award for worst invention or something.

Get over yourself and check your sources and the events surrounding them.

[syscourse-dialogue]

Mod Dude from SAS sent me an idea for a poll of something they are curious about so here it is:

Systems have you experienced MADD(this includes immersive daydreaming)? Pick what best applies.

Have a CDD, have experienced MADD

Have a CDD, not sure if I have experienced MADD

Have a CDD, haven't experienced MADD

Does not have a CDD, have experienced MADD

Does not have a CDD, not sure if I have experienced MADD

Does not have a CDD, have not experienced MADD

Not sure if I have a CDD, have experienced MADD

Not sure if I have a CDD, not sure if I have experienced MADD

Not sure if I have a CDD, haven't experienced MADD

Nuance

Not a system

Voting ended onJan 2, 2025

[sysmedsaresexist]

The Giant "Is RAMCOA, now OEA, antisemitic?" Debunk

Here's the last version. This one is... wow.

So here's the thing, this has taken me way too long, so here's the format:

- A summary of my point.

- A ramble about my point written forever ago.

- All the possible talking points discussed or debunked

You can just scroll to the bottom until you see "DEBUNK" if you really want to.

I'm tired. No one has time for this bullshit. This post isn't formatted the best--that's what I get for doing this on mobile. Take it as it is, the links are all included.

The ISSTD (the International Society for the Study of Trauma and Dissociation) and the OEA (Organized and Extreme Abuse) sig (special interest group) are not rooted in antisemitism. The "facts" against the ISSTD are twisted and unclear, and they aren't meant to help Jewish people or survivors. They discredit the ISSTD and the trauma basis of CDDs (complex dissociative disorders).

The Satanic Temple (TST) and Grey Faction (GF) aren't just protesting medical malpractice.

They believe that the DID diagnosis is the malpractice.

They believe that CDDs are a fad created by and from the panic of the 80s, that it's PURELY iatrogenic in nature (caused by therapists, iatrogenic is a specific arm of the fantasy theory) and therefore any proof that DID exists and is rooted in trauma is seen as some kind of direct insult to them. As if DID being real means that Satanic Ritual Abuse (SRA) must be real, and SRA has always been, and always will be, an attack on TST.

They believe that SRA and Ritual Abuse (RA) are one in the same (good thing the ISSTD renamed it :) ), and that SRA cannot be separated from other conspiracy theories like MKUltra.

TST be like:

Alt text: a meme photo from The Office saying "They're the same picture".

The rumors and claims that you see talked about primarily come directly from a letter by The Satanic Temple and Grey Faction, written in 2019 to try to have the ISSTD's Continuing Education certification revoked. This is where the resurgence starts and what got lights on all this.

They (that is, TST and GF) seem to believe that this letter played a part in the name change, claiming that it scared the ISSTD.

For some reason, the CE certification thing seems to really stand out to GF and TST, and they can't quite keep their story straight about what the issue is-- whether CE Learning refused to accredit any courses on "mind control" (they didn't, the ISSTD created their own system for CEs and stopped hosting on CE Learning), or whether it's just because they're attacking a therapist who gave a mother -- that would go on to kill her son -- some resources, and decided that meant she should never practice ever again (because they're angry that the ISSTD implied that they're using the tragic case for their own gain, the drama between these two groups ffs).

The letter, the name change, the rise of QANON, and finally, the resignation of GF leadership, would result in what we're seeing today.

Grey Faction and the TST are the root of every over-exaggerated rumor you hear, and this post intends to prove that.

It's not so much about debunking every claim -- because yes, bad things happened to a lot of people during the panic -- so much as an attempt to arm you with more information about the topic or situation. That way, you can make your own decision about whether the claims hold up to scrutiny and support a narrative of antisemitism and conspiracy within the ISSTD, or whether TST and GF continue to push their own agenda and the same dozen lies from over 3 decades ago during a time of societal uncertainty.

Not everything you read is accurate and true, and this entire situation highlights the need for media literacy and investigation.

So let's go.

Summary:

So, all of these talking points can be DIRECTLY linked back to GF/False Memory Syndrome Foundation (FMSF), and them alone, they're the origin.

You can't spout those points and say, "But don't trust Grey Faction."

Those are the things you can't trust about Grey Faction.

You can't say that they're right about, and the source of, all of these things, but wrong about implanted memories, because ALL of their content is a story that leads UP to the existence of false and implanted memories, in support of TST and discrediting their relationship to the panic.

There's no other conclusion.

They only care about putting the TST in a better light, even if that hurts survivors.

And we know they don't care about Jewish people, because the TST is openly antisemitic.

The below is a direct quote from Lucien Greaves, massive TW for antisemitism:

Like, I think it’s okay to hate Jews if you hate them because they’re Jewish and they wear a stupid fuckin’ frisbie on their head [correct term: yarmulke or kippah] and walk around [and] think their God’s chosen people, but it’s not okay to hate somebody [‘born of Jewish blood’] just because their parents were stupid fuckin’ Jews and wore stupid frisbies on their head and thought the Jews were God’s chosen people […] Not everybody of Jewish blood is okay with me, it depends on if they follow the Jewish, uh… […] Satanic Jews are fine.

My ramble:

You don't get to pick and choose what to believe when it comes to Grey Faction. If their claims about the ISSTD being the instigators and maintainers of the satanic panic is true, then they must ALSO be correct about false memories.

They can't be a trustworthy source for some things and not for others, because these concepts are intertwined completely.

False memories and the idea that the ISSTD is filled with conspiracy theorists that still believe in SRA go hand in hand. Iatrogenesis, implanted memories, hypnosis, and coercion. They believe all memories recovered in therapy are false. The recently dissolved FMSF focused on all forms of abuse, getting involved in murder cases (testifying on the side of perpetrators to discredit witnesses and victims by proving that memory is unreliable), rape cases, and of course, incest cases (I tried to find a good link to put here, just google Elizabeth Loftus testifies). TST and GF are solely focused on DID and the ISSTD, but the idea is the same.

According to GF, memories of abuse, especially ANY form ritual abuse, are fake and implanted, and anyone who supports recovered memories are SRA conspiracy theorists, AND THE TST DOES NOT DO THE SRA. They are very, very adamant about this.

Do you see how this works now?

They are also the source of the claim that the ISSTD and RAMCOA are antisemitic, despite being antisemitic themselves.

No, seriously.

On the Psychological Projection of Antisemitism by Satanists

Doug Mesner (Lucien Greaves, Satanic Temple) Anti-Semitic Rant

I highly suggest giving this a read if you want to know more.

I contend that GF and TST are antisemitic (see above) and trying to shift attention, and are keeping the panic alive on their own (see below)

I'm going to elaborate with a disjointed ramble

Grey Faction can't be trusted because everything they do and say has the ultimate end goal of proving therapists implant memories of abuse in their clients. See my last post about SRA and the memory wars.

Like, if Grey Faction is correct about all their assertions about the ISSTD and its members, then they must ALSO be correct about false memories, because those ideas are completely intertwined

Alt text: A gif from Ralph Breaks the Internet with Ralph saying, "One cannot exist without the other."

And yet, the same people telling you that RAMCOA, now OEA, is antisemitic will also tell you not to trust Grey Faction and that they're not a reliable source

Alt text: A screenshot from a reblog, stating, "reminder that the Grey Faction sucks." For context, Morlock has been posting that RAMCOA/OEA is antisemitic.

Which is it?

We know, for a fact, that "false memories", as presented by Grey Faction and the False Memory Syndrome Foundation, are not nearly as black and white as they would have you believe. This article is going to be a fantastic starting point to understand what exactly FMSF, TST, and GF are arguing about memories, and the ISSTD counterarguments. It's a very long read, but well worth it.

Recovered memory therapy is the hot topic here. Grey Faction would have you believe that the ISSTD still practices this therapy to this very day.

Alt text: A gif from Are You Afraid of the Dark. A teen throws powder into the fire, setting the scene for a spooky story.

They don't.

Grey Faction's proof FOR false memories is the ALLEGED and SUPPOSED behaviour and words of the ISSTD members under fire.

Despite the numerous allegations of TST and GF misquoting and twisting quotes. You'll see this later.

These are the same stories people are repeating now, in support of the relation between RAMCOA, now OEA, and the satanic panic, and therefore antisemitism.

Lucian Greaves was literally told at one point that medical malpractice can be fought without attempting to discredit DID and his response was basically, "How?"

Hopefully this link works (you'll need to be logged in to see), but if it doesn't, search Lucien Greaves' interactions with TheRingsSystem on Twitter for a truly enlightening experience on how this motherfucker interacts with the world.

DOES NO ONE ELSE SEE THE PROBLEM HERE?

The Debunk

Before we start, I want to look at the type of lies and twisting that we're going to see, give you an example of what to look for. I came across this article while I was making this post.

ISSTD Exposed: A Culture of Conspiracy, Grey Faction

This is more about the ISSTD's CE credits and the name change. This line in particular caught my eye, because for once it had a link.

Numerous threads mention “Satanic ritual abuse,” usually abbreviated as “SRA.” Michael Salter, on the Board of Directors of the ISSTD, in one comment refers to “SRA” as an “insider term” that should be avoided when talking to “outsiders.”

Oh, ominous.

Given the opportunity, I'm going to look and see what really happened.

Let me paraphrase. A very awkward, potentially troll student account asks about the origin of the term mind control. She then goes on to describe how she's terrified of using this language around outsiders, as it'll destroy her credibility with its supernatural and conspiratorial background and create barriers in the conversation.

Michael Salter responds that the term originated during the Cold War along with brainwashing and is very outdated, and no, it's not received well outside of RAMC Specialist Circles. He tells her organized abuse is the better term and goes on to explain that organized abuse is a general category for sexual abuse involving multiple perpetrators, that includes practices such as ritual abuse, child exploitation material and mind control. He says, "We see a spectrum of ritualistic or controlling behaviour in organised abuse - ritual and torture is sometimes present, but often not, and it occurs in many different ways and at different levels of severity."

I speak directly with police and policy makers about the kinds of torture that we see in organised abuse, including the intentional inducement of dissociation, but I would never use the term "mind control" with non-specialists. It's associated with movies and television more than "real life". At the same time, it's a useful shorthand amongst people who specialise in RAMC and we haven't found a good substitute for it. It would be good to develop a more contemporary vocabulary I think.

This comes back.

The thread then goes on to discuss other options for terms and "soft exposure" through media being the connecting language that allows clinicians to communicate with a general audience, and bad/inaccurate representation in media and online. Another clinician responds that she agrees with Salter, explaining that she doesn't want other providers or their clients to misequate media depictions to real life.

Michael responds to her about an ongoing research project looking into the perception of the term, talks about differences around the world in the view of the terms, and discusses pedophile and other "cult-like" organized crime groups. That's about as close as we get to any mention of conspiracy theories or satanism.

They talk about whether it's better to choose terms that confront the horror of the experience, or if they try to conceal that horror with a more generalized term.

Tara Tulley, who we talk about below, makes an appearance to say that most people who contact her about RA only know SRA, and it's an incredibly inaccurate depiction of organized abuse. Tara says that she's struggling to get people to separate RA from SRA, and to change the terms they're used to.

Michael finally says:

Thanks Tara - agree that we should use the terms that people are comfortable with and understand. It's just that "insider" terms like SRA and RAMC are translating poorly to "outsiders" like law enforcement, other mental health contexts. I guess we just have to be mindful of our audience.

Remember what the complaint was. Go back. Read the actual thread from the ISSTD yourself. And then reassess.

Nothing about the ISSTD thread was inappropriate or hinted at conspiracy theories. It was actually an incredibly productive conversation for everyone involved. It really painted the picture that everyone wanted to separate old SRA ideas from the reality of organized abuse, or RA, as it was most commonly known.

In fact, it explains the exact thought process behind the usage of the terms and how they actually apply in the world. Like how its handled with police.

Because yeah, police kind of suck at handling and believing these kinds of claims.

Mostly because the TST won't let it fucking die. They won't stop equating it.

So here we are, with

Michael Salter, the conspiracy theorist.

Let's look at some of these claims directly from the horse's mouth and see where they come from.

There's now a second post, too! Exciting!

I want to start with the ONLY point I agree with.

Ritual abuse and satanic ritual abuse are inherently linked terms.

Which is why it's now called OEA.

Keep this in mind. We're arguing about something the ISSTD already addressed and fixed. RA and SRA are too closely linked for comfort. So they renamed it.

Back to that horse, though. This horse is different from other horses because this one believes that the abuse itself is real. Most don't, which is always a red flag.

This saves me from having to prove that, at least.

Starting from the top of post 1:

Alison Miller? Quack conspiracy theorist loses her license.

ISSTD Therapist Loses License Following Grey Faction Complaint

Alison Miller has turned in her license as a result of a Grey Faction complaint

Alison Miller was retired at the time of their complaint. There's no license to hand over. She hadn't practiced in years. GF claims, very boldly, that they are the reason her license is suspended, and they are the ones continuing to push this ridiculous lie.

Source: Grey Faction

George Bergen's claims against Colin Ross (and others, because Ross is not named in several of the filings).

Links to an affidavit from 1997. Bergen a member of the False Memory Syndrome Foundation. In fact, HE CREATED AND RAN THE CANADIAN MANITOBA BRANCH. And he's kind of racist against native people. Fuck that guy.

Bergen is filing the affidavits on behalf of his wife's sister, who committed suicide in 1986. There's VERY little information on his wife and the suicide, but it's important to note that his wife left him before he filed and has never retracted. He even writes about her as, "my estranged wife who has not (yet) retracted."

Just something for thought. I think there's some shit we don't know about here. Anyways, the case was tossed out. We touch on this again in the second post debunk.

The second link is... oh. Wow. Grey Faction and The Satanic Temple themselves.

Doug Mesner is one of the many names of Lucien Greaves, the antisemitic asshat mentioned above. He runs The Satanic Temple. He's also the one who posted and hosts the affidavit package. He helped Bergen write it.

It's getting kind of funny that the openly antisemitic person is accusing other people and things of being antisemitic. It's almost like a racist is attempting to divide marginalized communities into hurting each other using soulless buzzwords. How weird.

Source: FMSF

Braun and his license.

The link is to psychsearch, owned by Ken Kramer. He's wild. It's always funny to me when he comes up.

So, Braun did lose his license after the case of Patricia Burgus (not to be confused with Bergen above), but it's important to note that Burgus already claimed to have 20 personalities when she met Braun. He didn't give her MPD or implant memories.

For this, you need to use your imagination a bit. Braun and Burgus met in 86. She was his patient for 6 years, as the panic started and blew up. At the time, the purpose of the ISSTD was to quickly develop urgent treatment guidelines, which didn't yet exist. These doctors were flying by the seat of their pants. Yes, mistakes were made, but the ISSTD has always acknowledged that. These were unprecedented events, and no one knew what to do. The ISSTD members of the time took the stance that their clients, often children, were telling the truth.

It's not implanting memories if you're asking your client to elaborate.

Please remember that we don't know what happened in all of these cases. It is, unfortunately, more likely that clients came up with these stories themselves, and were encouraged by the therapists asking for more information.

Braun was not convicted of any wrongdoing, it was a settlement case paid out by the hospital's insurance company. Braun wanted to go to trial to disclose the transcripts, where SHE makes the claims. She even said in an interview, “It fit in with everything else [Braun] told me I was saying in therapy."

Braun would then go on to lose his license again for over prescribing medication in another case.

Source: Grey faction supporters twisting truth in a case that can't be disclosed due to confidentiality

Salter and the tunnels

Let's see what Salter says (PDF)

The findings of an archaeological dig at the McMartin preschool site, which uncovered recently backfilled tunnels and ritual articles in accordance with the children’s disclosures, came too late to counter the momentum of the backlash (Summit 1994a).

It's interesting that he cited something there. Hmmmm. I can't actually find the paper but I did find a FANTASTIC summary of it. Summit references an archeology report that was released in 1993 that found evidence of tunnels, which turned out to be something else unrelated. The revelation came to light in roughly 2002.

The paper by Salter was published in 2008, long before he became involved with the ISSTD. He was likely still in school when he wrote that short piece, and he doesn't typically include it on his CVs. I wonder why.

I also want to look at this.

It's really important because it talks about how believable the surveyor's report was and why so many fell for it.

Salter has never spoken of the tunnels again. We talk about Salter again in post 2.

Source: Grey Faction twisting truth for two decades

Tara Tulley?

What's linked is a consent agreement between Tulley and the board of licensing, hosted on the TST website. Much like Braun, this is a case of the board and licensee agreeing not to go to trial. Within the agreement, Tulley disputes the facts against her but understands that this is a quicker resolution for all parties.

The main issue actually seems to be her application for renewal not being filled out correctly, and Tulley explains that she didn't realize the investigation was active at that point.

But yeah, I'll admit, Tulley is a weird one. Very weird.

Source: Does Grey Faction have nothing better to do?

George Greaves?

I can't get this link to work. He was only ever a member of the ISSTD for a single year around 85 or 87. He was more involved in Ridgeview than the ISSTD. He lost his license in 94 and never really surfaced again. Why are we talking about him? Are we trying to say the ISSTD is terrible because of very short run-ins with shitty people?

Source: Grey Faction sure does like talking about him considering how long ago that was and how little he was involved.

Francois Saculla?

WAS NEVER INVOLVED IN THE ISSTD, YOU FOOLS. He attended the APA's MPD workshop in 79. Ohhhhh, scary. Get it right.

Source: the horse only

Eileen Avani?

In the linked consent order (again, like Braun), Avani doesn't admit fault, and the board actually accepts her explanation and proof that she wasn't actually offering services or treating the roommate.

It's frustrating, because this document doesn't actually talk about Avani not reporting trafficking or anything. I can't actually find any information on that. Where did the horse get those claims?

I'm genuinely asking, because even Grey Faction doesn't make that claim. I feel like people are just playing broken telephone with links.

Avani was assisting someone who had been trafficked in childhood. There was no duty to report, and she was passing the client along to and assisting another treatment provider.

And that's post 1.

I HIGHLY urge you to google each of the above names followed by ISSTD, and just take a glance at what comes up.

(Spoiler: it's ALWAYS Grey Faction, you'll be hard pressed to find anything that isn't directly GF, or citing them in their own article)

Jfc, okay, post 2, which is from the horse's friend.

This one is so much longer and annoying.

To start, again, the ISSTD came together to handle the surge in cases, seek support from other clinicians, and to develop treatment guidelines. The panic started BEFORE the ISSTD. The Chicago clinic opened to take the huge numbers of people claiming to have MPD, amid the growing satanic panic. The ISSTD didn't come into existence and then all these cases appeared. Patients from across the WORLD, already claiming to have MPD and memories of SRA, were being referred to the newly opened clinic, created to TAKE THIS SURGE IN PATIENTS.

The panic started in 1980, after Michelle Remembers was released, and the ISSTD formed in 84, not 83 as stated by the horse's bff.

But where did we get 83? From Richard Noll, star child of the FMSF. I talk more about him further down.

Spiegel, Kluft, Braun and Miller all responded to this article, calling it inaccurate, but because the article keeps getting posted and pulled, it's hard to find originals.

So did Frances, and we all hate him.

There are so many claims in this post that are uncited, and by the time you finish the articles, you forget what you were fact checking. I don't know where the claims about SRA in the DSM come from, because it's not in the article linked.

I mean, the link even goes so far as to speak positively of Braun and his changing mindset.

Many psychotherapists who have been vocal about a supposed epidemic of sexual abuse by well-organized satanic rings have grown more cautious of late. "There's clearly been a contagion, a contamination of what people say in therapy because of what they see on TV or read about satanic ritual abuse," said Dr. Bennet Braun, a psychiatrist who heads the Dissociative Disorders Unit at Rush-North Shore Medical Center in Chicago.

This would imply that Braun got better about all this over the years. If that's the case, why are we still saying he believes all that?

I'm starting to get the feeling that no one is reading their own links

But that's Braun, what about Colin Ross?

Ross was never found guilty or convicted of malpractice, as the horse's friend claims.

Ross has been named in several suits, but never convicted. Ross is the most vocal about what a confusing time this was, how hard it was to tell fact from fiction, and how hard it was to balance dis/belief with neutrality.

And of course, we link directly to Grey Faction about the eye beams. You might be surprised to learn that Ross has a sense of humor and entered a paranormal contest. It's really not that fucking deep, people.

More about Alison Miller, who says that Grey Faction is twisting the truth.

I don't know why they threw in Neil Brick without a single citation. Oh, wait, yes I do. Their only source is Grey Faction, and Brick talking about his experiences. Like fakeclaiming.

Michael Salter, this time they admit only Grey Faction is talking about it and there's no other sources. See above.

I'm not commenting a single Wikipedia link, and these people should be ashamed for including them.

Tara Tulley, see above, no she wasn't.

George Greaves, see above.

This is so repetitive, they all say the same fucking things, and it's all wrong and skewed the same way.

The way Grey Faction wants to present it.

The wording of the next paragraph is SO telling.

The ISSTD has annual conferences, each being either recorded or documented, several of these being notably controversial. In 1988 they aimed to verify cannibalistic satanic cults who participate in human, specifically child, sacrifices, this was investigated and then debunked by the FBI.

Almost like, they talked about something to get more information on it, and got that information.

How dare they.

From 1990 to 1998 ISSTD conference guest panelists had been accused of being Satanists if they portrayed any skepticism towards the connection between DID and SRA; this is documented in several instances. (No link, An Interview with Frank Putnam, Part II." ISSTD News)

Are you saying you couldn't find a link to support you? Or are you saying that you couldn't find an interview with Putnam II? There you go. I highly suggest actually reading this to see what he ACTUALLY says. This is the line that got me. "I was accused of disrespecting victims." I think these arguments are being framed way more negatively than they should be. I don't think this was about upholding SRA conspiracy theories, so much as balancing skepticism when faced with patients' claims. It ignores that Putnam HIMSELF was called a satanist.

Clearly not everyone within the ISSTD held the same beliefs, so I'm not sure what people are hoping to prove here.

The horse's friend then goes on to link to the TST, saying the only source of the claim is Grey Faction, and it's just the TST talking about a Grey Faction letter.

TST owns Grey Faction. Never forget that.

NONE OF THESE LINKS ON THE TST SITE WORK, I'M GETTING SO FRUSTRATED

We're linked to a letter by Evan Anderson, Grey Faction leadership that would resign in 2024 because of how much the TST was inserting themselves in Grey Faction and trying to control their actions. With Anderson gone, Greaves is now in charge.

Anderson said,

I ignored a lot for the sake of the campaign. I no longer can. I can recognize a witch hunt, a budding culture of paranoia and conspiracism.

Hmmmm, interesting timing.

Already we should be calling bullshit, just because of how stupidly hard it is to find ANYONE other than Grey Faction talking about it.

The horse's friend then goes on to incorrectly state that the FMSF started because of the ISSTD, which is wrong. The future members of the FMSF were pushing false memories in the 70s. Read this post. (This is where you can find more information on Noll's associations with and support of TST.) Their claims exist outside of SRA. They want to discredit ALL survivors.

Then they finally go on to say that they tried not to use only Grey Faction as their source, but did they achieve that?

FUCK NO.

Every single reason cited for why RAMCOA, now OEA, is antisemitic, and for conspiracies existing within the ISSTD comes directly from Grey Faction, and happened DECADES AGO.

But don't trust Grey Faction.

WHICH IS IT, THEY CAN'T BOTH BE TRUE

Do you have any idea how many members are part of the RAMCOA/OEA sig? And we keep talking about the same 6 or so people, and theories and thoughts from over 40 years ago that those people DON'T ACTUALLY STILL BELIEVE. I think this post by TST might put the TST's and GF's goal best.

According to The Satanic Temple’s spokesperson, Lucien Greaves, “We are very happy that the board moved to revoke the license of Tara Tulley, but Tara Tulley is only one member of the International Society for the Study of Trauma and Dissociation, an organization largely comprised of mental health professionals who subscribe to bizarre and harmful conspiracy theories that some of them impose onto their clients, burdening the mentally vulnerable with crippling, fearful delusions, and propagating destructive QAnon-like paranoia. It is our position that the mental health profession should do more to rid itself of this embarrassment and ensure that those licensed in the field adhere to empirically-supported clinical practices. It is our position that the ISSTD should lose all professional standing, and they should not be allowed to administer Continuing Education Units to professionals who attend their conspiracist lectures.”

The OEA sig is one of 12 that the ISSTD runs. In 2022, there were only 29 members of the OEA sig, and it by no means includes all of the members of the ISSTD that work outside of OEA. Other sigs include acute care, child and adolescent, creative art therapies, eating disorders, neurodevelopmental disabilities, EDMR, and vicarious trauma.

None of that matters, though. The TST and GF want to see the ENTIRE ISSTD burned to the ground.

The timing of this surge in RAMCOA talk coincides with the TST/Grey Faction rift, as Greaves and his chronic online-ness took over.

And what is Greaves? A racist, a man whose sole goal is to silence survivors, and an ISSTD hater.

Knowing a good deal more about the situations above, go back to that original letter and reread the complaints.

[ratinacoat-deactivated20260310]

I don't know how to phrase this in a different way so before you come at me I'm gunna need y'all to read the post.

If fake claiming will be detrimentally damaging to your mental health, you shouldn't post about your disorder.

STICK WITH ME STICK WITH ME I'M NOT BLAMING PEOPLE FOR BEING FAKECLAIMED

Genuinely as advice, don't post publicly about information that could be used against you in a way that will damage you. It's similar to why you shouldn't post about your insecurities or triggers. People will use it against you. This includes things like disorders. If you make it known that fake claiming causes you distress, there's going to be someone out there who just does it for fun.

It's okay to be bothered by fake claiming. I'm not blaming you for being fake claimed if you have been on social media before. Something more people need to understand is that the internet will never be a safe space, and that's not your fault but it's important to remember that when you're posting information that could be used to hurt you.

If someone saying you're lying about your disorder will cause you to spiral into denial, then keep that as a close friends only subject. If it just mildly upsets you then don't post about the fact it upsets you. If it doesn't bother you at all then awesome.

Put your safety and wellbeing before the internet. Stay safe y'all.

[sysmedsaresexist]

This is legit the worst, would you just stop posting? Seriously?

Like, let's word this some other ways.

"Not to victim blame, but -blames victims for being fakeclaimed because they talk about themselves online-"

Great post, wrap it up.

"It's on you to not talk about your disorder if you don't want to be fakeclaimed."

Wow, fuck you.

“I’m not blaming people for being fakeclaimed, but if they post about their disorder online they’ll be fakeclaimed, so if fakeclaiming upsets you, then keep your disorder to yourself”

What a take, you should be in charge of syscourse.

"The internet is inherently dangerous, so it's up to innocent victims to protect themselves, rather than condemn fakeclaimers."

This one doesn't shock me, because you're one of the fakeclaimers.

I mean, yeah, fakeclaiming is going to happen, but your solution also does harm. Just shut up about something that affects your daily life isn't a solution. And just because fakeclaiming is going to happen doesn't mean contributing to it is fine.

Did you think this post was actually going to help anyone? Who are you trying to help?

I've only ever been fakeclaimed once, and do you want to know what it was for?

Having a job. I wasn't disordered enough to have DID. I talked about my work life balance and was fakeclaimed for not being mentally ill enough.

I don't think you have any concept of what kind of things get fakeclaimed, or that you take part in it actively on your blog and contribute to the problem.

I don't think you have any right to talk.

You put the onus ENTIRELY on innocent systems talking about themselves and what it's like.

Do better. Do some introspection and think about how you're supposedly "helping" people.

[ratinacoat-deactivated20260310]

Usually I just ignore you because your reblogs are so far from getting the point that it's honestly just funnier to watch peopole blindly agree with everything you say but I'm irritated by you at this point. Yes SAS I do see you reblogging my "crappy posts" and I don't give a shit.

Something you need to realize is that misquoting someone several times in your argument proves nothing. You needed to twist my words to make me wrong and that speaks volumes. I'm not wrong though am I? Would you advise children to give the internet tools to bully them? Would you advise children to post about their insecurities (COMPARISON. NOT CALLING DID AN INSECURITY. You love to twist words so I'm making that clear) online in a community full of toxic individuals who bully people? I'd sure hope not.

I advised people not to give someone something they can use to attack them with. This is the same as saying not to give out your triggers. This only applies to people it will be DETROMANTALLY DAMAGING TO. I swear to fucking god you don't know how to read with how little you do it while responding to people you don't like on here. It's hilarious in all honesty.

I am not blaming people for being fakeclaimed. I am not victim blaming. I am not saying no one should talk about their disorders. Read. My. Post. I am advising people not to give out information that if used against them will harm them mentally. It is good advice. It is internet safety 101. You do not give out personal information that could be used against you. This includes disorders that already cause a lot of denial in people.

THE INTERNET IS NOT SAFE.

It doesn't matter where you are, you always need to be careful.

If it's triggering to be fakeclaimed, don't tell people that. If it's triggering to be fakeclaimed, don't give people information to do that with. Keep it in a safe space. This does not mean shutting up.

If you read through this far enough to be able to read here I'm impressed. It's improvement coming from you SAS. I try to be nice in my posts but Jesus fucking Christ man. Read what you're debating with before you try to debate. I am not victim blaming, I am advising people to be careful.

If you need to twist someone's words to prove a point, you're probably wrong. I'd reflect on that if I were you. Much love xx.

[justanothersyscourse]

Ohohoho, let's go.

Here's my other account, block this one, too.

I have not misquoted once.

Let's go straight back to your initial post.

"Stick with me, l'm not blaming people for being fakeclaimed," and just because you don't put the "but" in there, you follow it up with a but.

I'm not fakeclaiming, but, I'm not saying it's your fault, but

The internet isn't safe, will never be safe, and "YOU SHOULDN'T POST ABOUT YOUR DISORDER."

How is that misquoting you? You specifically highlighted talking about our disorder, not talking about being bothered by fakeclaiming, triggers, your feelings- "Don't post about your disorder."

"People will use info against you, so don't put it out there," which includes not talking about things, not seeking out community, not finding community because no one else is talking.

Did you put any onus on the people fakeclaiming others? Hmm, not once, not even a, "they're in the wrong, it's not right, you have every right to be hurt."

You could have worded this so many other ways that would have actually benefited the community, but that's not your goal, is it?

You don't care about the communities.

Would it be appropriate of me to tell people with schizophrenia that they shouldn't talk about their experiences if fakeclaiming would upset them?

Not at all, it downplays the problem and the effects, and again, it puts the onus on the people being hurt to be safer. You don't even hint at support for people. You're literally just saying people should stop talking, rather than pushing for any kind of advocacy or support.

Just do it differently and you'll be safer.

Don't send nudes if you don't want them posted as revenge porn, don't wear revealing clothing if you don't want to be assaulted, don't talk about your diagnosis if you don't want people to use it against you.

You have a problematic mindset.

But wait, let me rephrase, because apparently what you're ACTUALLY saying is, "don't post that assault upsets you or someone will assault you for fun." "Don't post about your disorder, or people will hurt you for fun."

Who does this help?

Look at syscringe, they come into our spaces and take photos to laugh at and use small insight into people's lives and systems to debate if they're real. Like HUGE threads debating the smallest facts.

So you're ignoring that it's not just surface level fakeclaiming. It's a serious issue that affects SO MANY disorders. And we should just stop talking about it, according to you, because that's clearly the best way to protect ourselves.

You might as well be saying, "well, duh, that was going to happen, shouldn't have posted it." Victim blaming.

You clearly don't understand the things that are being fakeclaimed, what info is being shared online, and how it affects people

And you're really going to try to defend yourself?

Gross.

Read MY post.

You failed with the execution. You did more harm than good with this one, and you chose the worst way to go about it. Now you're backtracking.

Be. Beter.

[sysmedsaresexist]

Everyone! Calling all systems and plurals and all the wonderful in-betweens!

Poll time

Assuming you haven't had a chance to clarify your preferred terms,

If you have a CDD, are you offended or uncomfortable by being called plural? If you fall under an endogenic category, are you offended when called system?

I have a CDD and being called plural doesn't bother me at all

I have a CDD and I'm uncomfortable in some way with being called plural

I have a CDD and I get very upset when I'm called plural

I identify as endogenic in some fashion, and I'm not bothered by system

I identify as endogenic in some fashion and I'm uncomfortable with system

I identify as endogenic in some fashion & I get very upset when called system

I'm stuck in the middle of CDD and endogenic in some way, neither upset me

I'm stuck in the middle of CDD and endogenic in some way, system upsets me

I'm stuck in the middle of CDD and endogenic in some way, plural upsets me

Delicious nuance in comments

Voting ended onOct 10, 2024

[sysmedsaresexist]

Fine, since everyone wants it, third poll of the day 😤 (I'm not going to complain about the chance to fix my typos)

Calling all systems and plurals, and beautiful mixes of the two:

what is your preferred blanket language when approached by new people

I have a CDD and prefer system

I have a CDD and prefer plural

I have a CDD and both are okay

I fall under a variation of endogenic and prefer system

I fall under a variation of endogenic and prefer plural

I fall under a variation of endogenic and both are okay

Not a system/prefer not to say/nomnomnom delicious nuance in comments

thank you, SAS, ilu 😍

Voting ended onOct 3, 2024

[sysmedsaresexist]

serious question do you think coke or pepsi could be good with chocolate sundae syrup? asking for a friend

yes

no

wtf is wrong with you

Voting ended onSep 1, 2024

[justanothersyscourse]

Well, that was the worst bad faith reading of a post I've ever seen

Blogs like you are a waste of time

You made a lot of assumptions about me that are completely wrong

Go play trauma Olympics elsewhere, immaturity like yours is not welcome here

[justanothersyscourse]

oh hi it’s -flower anon

I mostly was sending the asks in since I have moral OCD and the uncertainty and genuine horrible things I’ve seen very much conflict.

I’m only anti-endo due to the very, very cultish nature of a lot of it and have fallen for too many cults already.

(I was groomed into a online cannibalism gore cult at a very young age and still deal deal with the consequences of that, fell for way too many death cults, and almost was lost to way too many other hateful things)

so when the Moral OCD kicks in I trust it, it’s only lead me out of these bad situations.

I know my opinions are probably very uncommon, but too many cults and cultish mindsets I’ve fell for.

honest to god, I was at one point ready to kill myself because I thought overpopulation was real And those accelerationists got to me.

so for wholehearted honesty it’s too much for me, personally I believe fully in cultural and spiritual multiplicity.

But most endo/tulpa/willo spaces aren’t that, and that uncertainty of if- “is this person saying that ‘hey this is just a cultural and spiritual thing’ or is this person not any of those what are they I don’t wanna get into a covert cult again”

but as the current state of endo/willo/Tulsa spaces are, it’s so so cultish that it’s triggering me.

Everything sets off so many alarms in my brain that I trained myself to recognize,

so that’s why I was worrying and asking about it.

you’d too if you had fallen for so many dangerous cult stuff.

Too many death cults man, too many online death cults.

Hi flower ❤️ I hope you're doing okay. I've been sitting on this draft, debating if what I have to say would be helpful or damaging.

You came back, though, so I feel that I need to respond in some way... I'm going to be honest, I'm scared to make this post, this is a very polarized topic in the system community. But... maybe what I say can help someone.

I hope you'll read through to the end. No matter what, whether you disagree with me or not, I genuinely hope you're okay and that things get a bit easier for you. It probably doesn't help, but I know what you're feeling.

I have bad OCD myself. I'm lucky in that I don't struggle with that specific type anymore, but I feel for you 🫂

I'm also very sorry to hear about what you've been through ):

Before I talk, know that this response isn't to change your mind. My only goal is to try to help settle some of that stress.

I want you to feel less stressed by this entire thing. It's okay.

When I was still very heavily anti endo, I felt the exact same way. I'm not just saying that. I also run sysmedsaresexist, and I'm pretty sure I have posts calling the pro endo community "cult-ish" in nature. I probably did it a number of times. You're not alone in that view. I was worried that doctors were going to fall for it, that innocent people were getting dragged into believing they were systems, all of it. Been there, done that.

However, as I slowly moved from anti to critical, I realized BOTH sides display the EXACT same behaviors. The antis were just as bad, once I stepped back to look at it.

To the point that if you put the posts next to each other with identifying characteristics hidden, it could come from, and be about either side. Here's an example.

Either both sides are a cult, or cult is not an appropriate word to be using for syscourse.

It's the latter, I've learned over the years.

And once I got over myself and actually spoke with endo systems... I swear to you, I promise you, with every fiber of my being, that most of what you hear is fear mongering.

Most.

But the same can be said about anti endos. Endos are terrified of antis, but that's because they only hear other endos talking about their HORRIBLE experiences with antis. Some of it is true, most of it isn't, most is... more than a little bit exaggerated.

It just is. Endos think you, specifically you, flower anon, send death threats.

Do you? I'm willing to bet not, but you're lumped into that group whether you like it or not, whether it's true or not.

While syscourse can feel TERRIFYING, like life versus death (trust me, I know), I promise it's actually okay.

It's going to be okay. You're going to be okay.

The medical community is going to be okay. Your resources will be okay. The endos will be okay. The antis will be okay.

I am still actively involved in clinical circles, and I promise you, doctors know the difference between CDDs and plurality. Doctors ARE talking about endogenic systems, but try to give them a bit more credit.

Did you know that the multiple theory of self is as old as the ToSD? But it's a concept based in philosophy and the discussion of consciousness. These are two totally different things that are both valid. The issue is overlapping language. But if we're mad about "system" being shared, why aren't we more mad at IFS? Does "computer system" dehumanize CDD systems, too? That's dumb. No it doesn't.

Radqueers exist in every single community, and so do people who don't like radqueers. For every radqueer endo, there's another endo squinting hard at that and complaining to their friends. There are radqueer DID systems. They exist. It happens. It's like saying lesbians are bad because there's radfems and radqueers in that community, too. The intersection of multiplicity, sexuality and gender is VERY confusing, with more moving parts than you can count. Obviously there are going to be people with very wide and very narrow views about it.

(That said, I don't bother with radqueer stuff very much, I have NEVER participated in that discourse because I don't feel that I understand the nuance of it enough to have a fully informed view of it.

Wouldn't it be nice if more people could acknowledge that they don't understand things enough?

Anti endos, I'm looking at you)

Your ability to see cult tactics in things is something that has protected you, but that doesn't make it healthy. Do not try to overcome or change that part of you without the help of a specialist. That's not what I'm saying.

Seeing the world as dangerous, and signs of danger in the world, is what protects everyone, but for trauma affected people, this ability is broken. It's hyperactive. That's something that we all approach in therapy, eventually. You don't need to change right now, but one day you'll want to be able to see the good in things, and that takes so much more practice and guidance than you could imagine.

An easy way to start, though, is empathy and introspection-- not just into your self, but into your community. To recognize the double standards and be able to critically put aside those fears and concerns without someone else making the decision for you.

I can tell you that isolation is a major tactic used by cults, and it's the antis telling you to do that, isn't it? They say, don't even hear the other side out, I'll tell you what they're saying, and you can just believe me.

Isn't that what @number1-syscourse-blog was telling you to do? And it's only the pro side saying you can be friends with BOTH sides-- not just other pro endos, but telling you that it's okay to be friends with antis and pros. That it's healthy and good to surround yourself with differing opinions and form your own conclusions. I don't know if you can see the number of people telling number1 syscourse what a bad response that was. Not just me, SO MANY PEOPLE! They're all blocked and hidden now.

Because the full picture is a beautiful thing.

Making your own choices and drawing your own conclusions is a powerful thing.

And the picture is not as ugly or scary as number1 syscourse would have you believe.

My suggestion to you is to just... not talk syscourse with your friends. Just be friends. Talk about the dumbest shit and remember that you're both just human, trying to understand the world around you.

For fun, and to settle minds, let's go through, just to drive the point home. It's going under a cut, just in case, but be aware, I'm critically tearing apart both sides for being ridiculous.

Pros and antis, cult edition

Characteristics of a cult:

Absolute authoritarianism without accountability

Now, neither side has a leader, so to speak, but we can talk about how members of each community can say whatever they want without any accountability. We have people on both sides wishing death on the other, and no one is stepping in to say, "yo, wtf?" No, those posts are instead spread further by people reblogging their friends, because 🌈 brand loyalty 🌈 rather than any kind of critical thought.

Yes, both sides do this. No, that's not up for debate. It's happening. If you think it's not, you're either being willfully blind, or you've fallen into the isolation trap.

DNIs aren't shields against shitty behavior, just like free speech doesn't allow for hate speech, but people sure do love hiding behind DNIs. Like, they'll post a GOOD ask, with great points, and respond with a womp womp, can't you read my DNI, and it's like... maybe you should have read more than the first line, my dude. Free publicity for the other sides' ideals, because you literally can't be bothered to read anything.

Honesty, I think the block feature is the downfall of humanity. There are anti endo blogs posting misinformation on DID that can't be corrected because they've blocked everyone that knows more than them. I've tried to correct a lot of them, I'm blocked.

It's an echo chamber, much like how you view pro endo spaces.

Zero tolerance for criticism or questions

Come on, do I actually need to talk about this? See the DNI point again. Good asks with good points with a nonsense response because, OH GOD, anon dared to have a slightly different belief on something. Endo neutrals, people trying to ask questions and learn, aren't even allowed to interact with most blogs, even just for questions.

Lack of meaningful financial disclosure regarding budget

Another way that "cult" isn't an appropriate term, though we could talk about TPA here. I really, really don't like the TPA.

Unreasonable fears about the outside world that often involve evil conspiracies and persecutions

Hey, pot, meet kettle.

A belief that former followers are always wrong for leaving and there is never a legitimate reason for anyone else to leave

Hey, that's what happened to me when I left the anti side!

Abuse of members

Yeah, they abused me pretty bad for trying to correct misinformation on @antimisinfo's (an anti endo) post. People are constantly being ostracized and kicked out of their community for looking too hard at the other side. God forbid you hear them out, for curiosities sake.

Records, books, articles, or programs documenting the abuses of the leader or group

Not really?

Followers feeling they are never able to be “good enough”

Maybe if you squint?

A belief that the leader is right at all times

Who would the leader be? Science? Because science does support endos, and antis won't read a single word of it.

A belief that the leader is the exclusive means of knowing “truth” or giving validation

Again, if we call science the leader... but again, that only applies to antis.

The group is elitist, claiming a special, exalted status for itself, its leader(s), and its members

I can see it, I guess. Mostly out of antis claiming the elite title for trauma.

The group has a polarized us-versus-them mentality, which may cause conflict with the wider society

Both sides have this problem.

The group teaches or implies that its supposedly exalted ends justify whatever means it deems necessary. This may result in members’ participating in behaviors or activities they would have considered reprehensible or unethical before they joined the group

Again, see the point about friends reblogging other friends wishing death on the other side.

The leadership induces feelings of shame and/or guilt in order to influence and/or control members. Often, this is done through peer pressure and subtle forms of persuasion. Members are encouraged or required to live and/or socialize only with other group members.

This would be like saying you're betraying your side for talking to the other side. Huh. Kind of like what happened to you.

Just because the word cult CAN be applied to things doesn't mean it should be. Especially in syscourse, where one side has such a dark history with cult activity, it feels very... inappropriate to call pro/antis in syscourse a cult.

Really, it's just a bunch of people screaming that they're more right than the other side, and using fear mongering to make points that don't actually matter.

[number1-syscourse-blog]

idk, how I feel.

I have alot of pro-endo mutuals and like I still like them as people.

idk if they hate us for being anti-endo

-flower anon

I think it's best to ask them upfront if they dislike you/hate you.

And I think it's best to cut pro-endos from ur life but first I think it's best to explain why you would have to do that

I'm bad at advice, super sorry

[justanothersyscourse]

OMG, yeah, you are bad at advice

Anon, you're allowed to have friends with opinions that vary from yours. In fact, it's HEALTHY to do that, life is going to force you to interact with people, you might as well start learning how to have healthy relationships now.

When you start working, or in school (especially higher education), you will meet so many people who have opinions that you disagree with, and people who disagree with your opinions.

And that's okay!

And you need to learn to live with them.

Here's a fun piece of wisdom.

You don't need to talk about syscourse, or any touchy topic with those people, and you can still have healthy, happy relationships with those people.

For example, at my work, there's an anti vax guy. We don't talk about that. We had a spat about it during covid and we haven't talked about it since. His two kids are in a band, we talk about that a lot, and it gets us through the day, and then we go home. I like him when he talks about his kids, but I hate him when he talks about politics.

There's a woman who's very into natural healing, and very against doctors. I like her tea recommendations, and I like hearing about her young daughter. Sometimes she brings me homemade chili oil. She's very sweet.

You don't get to block in real life. These kinds of conversations are going to happen around you, more than you think.

And you shouldn't have to give up friends over opinions, especially if they're a positive in your life.

Especially when we're talking about being pro self identification-- like that's miles different from, say, having a homophobic friend. Their opinions on other topics could be really valuable to you.

Chances are, your friends don't like your opinions, either, but like YOU as a person, too.

And that's okay.

Even people in romantic relationships can disagree on major things and still love each other.

Don't limit yourself over syscourse, you're only going to hurt yourself in the future when you realize you have zero practice interacting with people with opinions that don't match yours.

[justanothersyscourse]

In your last reblog. You do realize that the part you highlighted is referring to a person’s predisposition to dissociating to cope with trauma, right? Like that’s part of why two children can go through the same kind of trauma but only one might end up with DID, for example. Like I don’t know what point you tried to make there but I think you got it wrong

@starfallsys I apologize, I don't actually know what you're trying to say.

OP presented a source from 2001 that said dissociative abilities are 100% unrelated to genetics. This is not about DID, this is taken from the general section on dissociation.

And I said, your source is outdated, genetics account for 40-50% of variance with trauma accounting for the rest. Here's recent research from the last three years, including the DSM. The addition of genetics to the DSM's DID section is HUGE.

Those genetics are why some children end up with DID and some don't, even when experiencing similar trauma.

OP is clearly trying to put down ideas for how other types of systems form, while hurting DID systems in the process.

The variance in dissociative ability has been used for DECADES to try to prove that DID isn't real. If it really was a result of trauma, everyone traumatized would have DID. This genetic research is INCREDIBLE! I don't think OP knows what kind of can of worms they could have opened.

I don't know what point you're trying to make?

@endogenic-cringe I'm adding you to this so you can understand, since you can't be bothered to correct yourself and the followers you've misled.

[endogenic-cringe]

From the International Society for the Study of Trauma and Dissociation

And yes, the ISSTD supports science.

Dissociation FAQs - ISSTD

[justanothersyscourse]

Actually 🤓

Your source is outdated and the DSM has been updated! (Or, rather, the ISSTD website needs an update)

2024 paper

Genetics and Dissociative Identity Disorder (DID)

Dissociative identity disorder is a complex and controversial disorder that can be very incapacitating. There has not been much extensive re

2023 paper that won't link properly

https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/bjpsych-open/article/biomarkers-of-dissociation/080688D01F962A8C83F636027BED8FE0

2022 paper

The Molecular Genetics of Dissociative Symptomatology: A Transdiagnostic Literature Review

Dissociative disorders are a common and frequently undiagnosed group of psychiatric disorders, characterized by disruptions in the normal in

From the recent DSM 5 TR

Maybe don't spread misinformation

[number1-syscourse-blog]

I ask all endos that can see this to block me 🙏🙏 we both don't want to see eachother on our fyp and I have no idea why you would want to comment in my posts or send asks.

(If you are anti endo, please send asks! I absolutely love getting them <3)

[justanothersyscourse]

Hey, real question, from the actual number 1 syscourse blog

How are you going to syscourse if you don't interact with the other side?

Like... isn't the point of syscourse (you know, system discourse) to engage, communicate, and debate with the people who disagree with you?