Peter rejected MJ, so to speak, because he saw that she was living a happy, thriving life, and he didn't want to be the one to put her in danger since he felt responsible for his aunt's death.
Frank rejected Karen because she was living a happy, thriving life, and he didn't want her to sacrifice everything to be with him, especially when he felt like being with him got his family killed, and he didn't want Karen to get hurt because of him.
Peter isolated himself from MJ and his friends for four years.
Frank isolated himself from Karen and his friends for eight years.
When Peter and MJ finally reunited and he told her he was Spiderman and explained everything that had happened, she rejected him because she didn't remember him enough to love him... and also because Peter's initial "rejection" of her was a decision he made for the both of them, even after she had told him to find her and explain everything. She was fully willing to be a part of his world, but he made the executive decision to exclude her.
When Frank and Karen finally reunited and he asked to fix things between them, she rejected him. I also want to add that - like Spideychelle - Frank's initial rejection of Karen was a decision that he made for the both of them, even after she had been willing to risk everything for him and offer him a future together. Once again, this made her fully willing to be a part of his world, but he made the executive decision to exclude her.
I already knew that with Frank's introduction to cinema and the general public, the audience would curiously want to see his solo projects, and that's why the special was made. Is it just me, or am I already seeing a certain increase in interest in Kastle these days? 👀
yelena's cameo in bnd is not just a fun look into her life as an avenger. it shows her character development.
from the time the red room took her and till she got her mind back, she had her autonomy taken away from her and was used as a tool to do terrible things.
yet yelena at her core is a leader and a hero. we know that as a child she wanted to be the one her soccer team could rely on. and then when she got her mind back, she wanted to liberate other widows.
but bc of years of brainwashing, she doubted that she could be a hero any longer and thought that there was something wrong with her. like, she was so lost and depressed and alone when she got her mind back.
and then, through thunderbolts, she finally remembered that feeling of being the one who made the room bright. bc they trusted her to lead them out of darkness.
and now, we see her embrace that purpose and role with confidence and joy. she is the happiest she has ever been being an avenger. amongst the people who rely on her, doing the work she loves.
i think even her being so research focused is such a good way of showing her embracing her freedom through exploration, you know?
“Nothin' in this world a good cup of coffee can't fix.”
But maybe it’s not just the coffee.
Just a quiet, cozy evening for Frank and Karen. A moment where, for a little while, Frank doesn’t have to be the Punisher. A moment where neither of them has to carry the weight of worrying about everyone else.
I’m sure there was a time when Frank Castle could talk about his feelings out loud. But years of bloodshed wore that skill away. Actions, not words, are what guide him now.
Karen knows words can lie. She works with words. Actions speak louder.
Jon has long hair again (which, by the way, is my favorite hairstyle for Frank), and it’s already giving me vibes of that Kastle reunion from Season 1. Karen is definitely going to notice this new version of Frank "a protector and no longer an avenger" 🥹
"Karen doesn't have feelings for Frank, that's why she didn't stay with him, and chose Matt." Do these people ignore or have they never watched episode 2x11 of TP? I think it's an episode that clearly answers all the questions and defines the relationship between Kastle and the characters in what we're seeing in the current MCU. The one who didn't want to be with someone there was none other than Frank himself, who kind of made that decision for both of them to distance Karen from his life as a vigilante since she HERSELF was going to give up everything to be with him. What's happening now isn't that she doesn't have feelings for him, she does, very much so even after all these years. She just had to move on, and she's right! She couldn't stop her life because of a decision that, unfortunately, had already been made. So NO, she's not with Matt because she doesn't like Frank, she's with Matt because she moved on, despite being in denial about them. She still will and always will love Frank, since it has been confirmed that he is her nerve and her weak point.
Or, an attempt to narrate the kastle timeline and dynamic through the eyes of someone who just recently got into the ship and wants to discu
I said I was going to do it so I did, you can now read my very long kastle dynamic analysis all in one place! I made some minor tweaks and adjustments as well as correcting some possible mispellings and grammatical errors. As I was sewing everything together I realized how truly long it is fngjk but I had a lot of fun writing it so once again, I hope you enjoy. Thank you ♡
Karen and Frank: a deep dive into their relationship
MCU edition part 2 + hopes for the future
And truly the last part. Starting from where I left off. I was about to talk about the heartbeats scene.
Previous parts to understand context: part 1 part 2 part 3 part 4 part 5
Karen and Matt are trying to look for some evidences about Foggy's death and he thinks it's the right time to address the elephant in the room.
"So...You talk to Frank a lot?" And what do you know Matty boy
"Sounds like you're jealous."
Technically she just deflects it onto his jealousy but doesn't reply to his question!
"You know, back at his place I heard your heartbeats." And it's not even the first time he does that with Karen when it comes to Frank!
And welp...suddenly Karen isn't laughing anymore, she got BUSTEDDDD.
"God that is really not fair."
I really wish the camera wasn't on Matt when Karen asks "You heard his too?" Cause you can pratically hear the smile forming on Karen's face as she asks that, she was so proud to have that man wrapped around her finger I swear.
"Oh yeah." Matt's so smug about it too what you're chuckling at? Your ex girlfriend being in love with another man?
"It's just adrenaline I'm sure."
And then she asks him if he heard hers when she saw him and he gives her back her exact answer from before: "Adrenaline I'm sure."
If I had an euro everytime Karen Page avoided talking about being in love with Frank Castle to talk about her love for Matt i'd have 2 euros, which isn't a lot but it's weird that it's happened twice.
What does her denial tell us? Well lots of things I think. First, Matt's probably the last person she would be willing to talk to about her feelings for Frank since we're also talking about a man who she loves (and a man she's now trauma bonded too). If Foggy was still alive maybe he would have been more indicated as a confidant. It's not like she really has other close friends to talk about that or anything else really, which is another thing that's lacking for Karen in the mcu show.
Second, I don't think she will ever be over Frank. She might think she is she might even believe she can find happiness with someone else but all it takes is for them to see each other again even for a minute and that sparks reignites once again. And it tells you that that story is far from being over, cause there's still so much left untold. To be honest I'm a huge fan of this trope specifically, they fit it so well and it's part of the reason I resonate with their story so much.
I think this tweet sums it pretty well for me:
Frank is still not in a place for a relationship at this point, he's very much focused on the things he has to get done and we know that in OLK he's still struggling to find his purpose (but we'll get to that). What makes it compelling for me is that Karen is the one thing that constantly makes him doubt he's only ever meant to be the punisher. It's always like...he knows what he's doing, he does it effectively but everytime they cross paths nothing else matters, what matters is protecting her and making sure she's safe. He tries to be cool and collected and dark and broody but beneath all that there's that intense yearning for her. He tries to suppress it all as much as she's also trying to not to let it show to the world that the rejection still stings and those feelings are still there and it's all painful cause he knows seeing her here and there is as good as he's gonna get (unless he starts actively looking for her again which he fucking should!). I think in a sense, he's still her worthy cause.
Back in his hideout, Frank's listening to the cops through the walkie talkie. One of them says "No eyes on Murdock and the blonde, Daredevil and Punisher got away." After the call ends he lets out a big worried sigh, gets up and takes his gun off the table. It's once again time to fuck shit up to protect his girl. "The deal is nobody goes after her." Remeber? I certainly do!
And once again, Karen is indeed his call to action. And it won't be the last time!
The cops end up capturing Frank and asking him to join their forces. Frank refuses. "You think you know my pain? You think you know my losses? How I see the world?"
Karen tells Matt that if he plans on attacking he will either die or kill. I don't know why these last season 1 scenes felt a lot to me like kastle dialogues? Maybe it's a coincidence idk. I don't think it's interesting that despite the ending, Karen and Matt are not gonna see that much eye to eye in the later season.
Anyway, the season ends with Frank escaping from the cage he's kept in and that's about it.
Now, onto season 2.
I wish there was a lot to say about this season but there's actually like 2 crumbs and that's it. Once again, just like Karen's lackluster presence in TP s2 I don't understand why Frank wasn't present in season 2 of Born Again. I've read somewhere that it was due to Jon Bernthal's tight schedule which I guess can't be really helped but with the way things went in the season, it's so unrealistic for me to picture Karen in a situation where she's in costant distress, she's in jail and Frank isn't there to blow everything up and help her any way he can. Not to mention she probably risks her life in general. His absence will probably never be addressed again which is also what sucks.
When she is in prison and she gets told that she can only make one phone call I gotta admit a part of me wished it was Frank and that he would actually show up. Also it would have made such a nice parallel if he was present during her trial, just like she was there for his. I don't know how much realistic can it be for Frank to be sitting in court though so I guess we can sit this one out. But supporting her with secret visits would have been nice to see I guess.
Oh well, at least I guess that way we still have their big reunion to look forward to!
There's two things I want to talk about before I get into the kastle crumbs. First: putting Karen and Matt back together off screen is lazy ass writing. You're trying to sell that this is the most important couple of the show and you can't even give them a build up to get together? Not to mention, they disagree all the time on pivotal things? Cause like...why should Dex stay alive after everything he's done? Probably the most Frank coded thing she's ever done to be honest.
Also the fact that he's been training her in combat almost as if she has to "adapt" to the vigilante life...I'm not sure how I feel about it. I've always perceived Karen as more of the mind to someone else's punch/weapon. Sure she can be ready to act upon some trouble and I love that she gets to have badass scenes in that realm as well, but ultimately she's the one who decrypts the mysteries and gets to the core of things. That's why I enjoyed her so much in both the og DD and in The Punisher.
"What happened to you?" "I grew up" oh Karen...hard times require drastic measures. I think nobody would understand her more than Frank in that sense and that's also why I think they're more compatible overall. And well the foreshadow is actually there from the start.
Season 2 episode 3
"You're turning into Frank."
Another funny thing to me is that they're talking about Frank while her supposed boyfriend is standing there shirtless
"Well, he always said know your enemy cause they're all you've got."
"Yeah, sounds extremely Frank."
"You think he's dead?"
Let's go haunt the narrative with papa
Well it's not really surprising that this is the first of her concerns. Last time she saw him she "called him out", he got in the middle of the fight and hasn't heard from him ever since. I wonder if it is not the first time she has this thought. If maybe she stayed awake hoping Frank would contact her and reassure he's well. Too bad she didn't know he was fighting his own inner demons (and hallucinations of her).
Matt reassures her that there's no way Frank is dead, otherwise Fisk would have hang his corpse down the Brooklyn bridge.
"So what...he's just? All this, he's just...being him."
"Same as always."
"I don't know. He's always been there for me--- for us before, so--" [big ass sigh]
Somebody misses their mannnn
Anyway I think that "for us" wasn't an add on but more so of a cover up. She wanted to specifically talk about how much Frank has always been present for her specifically but had to somehow make it seem like she was including Matt in the equation to allude at the times he helped them both (which were like...2 out of the idk how many he helped Karen alone btw). I don't know it was just funny to me.
"You're saying you want his help?" Yes Matt she loves him for who he is you're gonna have to deal with it at some point.
"Well I mean...he is effective."
"You realize murder is not how we win this right?"
Karen in response makes a good point. They could murder Fisk at the very least who's being doing everything he wants since Foggy was killed. In that way her train of thought aligns a lot more with Frank than Matt's. In s1 he said that if Fisk were to target him, he was going to kill him and call it a day, and I don't think Karen would be opposed to that at all. After all, she tried to kill Bullseye before being stopped by Matt. I think unconsciously some of the things Frank has told her throught their journey together still linger in her. And how could they not?
She knows what it's like to grieve someone.
Now let's jump right into the scene that made me check out the entirety of Kastle you already know what it is: the Karen and Heather confrontation.
Heather has collected pretty much every evidence of Karen's past life to haunt her with it and let her snap. Karen is not short of doing the same back. She starts by telling her how much she's in love with this man who's also completely unaccessible, distant and complicated and how it's also hot. I gotta say when I first heard these words, while knowing they were about Matt, I couldn't help but think that they applied perfectly to Frank as well. I don't know if it was intentional, probably not but still.
Heather keeps going. She mention the murder of her brother and Karen already tenses up a bit.
"Did you feel powerful when you murdered James Wesley? After a life time of being used as a puppet by all these men."
"Daddy."
No reaction.
"Brother."
No reaction.
"Frank Castle---"
"FUCK YOU."
All of the mentioned people share a deep meaning for Karen, but it's Frank that causes her to snap. And Heather? Well she's very pleased to see it.
"Funny. That's where the nerve is."
"Does Matt know?"
The face someone makes cause she just got caught slipping on her weak spot. She's totally like "whoops this wasn't meant to happen, can't let her know that man has a deeper significance for me." The only thing causing her to lose her calm and composure is Frank Castle.
I don't know if it can be interesting for you to know but I'm italian and I decided to watch this scene in my own dub out of curiosity and "the nerve" is translated with the italian expression "il tasto dolente" which could be in a literal way roughly translated to "sore/aching point".
I think that in the nature in Frank and Karen's relationship, aching sounds very appropriate. He is that kind of ache that never stops reminding you that it's there and that can come back at any time. Plus I just love how they keep haunting each other's narratives but I've said this before.
What does Karen do at this point? She deflects once again, talking about how much Matt loves her. For how long my poor girl is gonna suppress her true feelings I wonder.
Well, these are the crumbs from from DDBA season 2. The season ends with Matt in jail, Fisk on vacation out of NY and Karen? Left hoping she can try to have a normal life with Matt even though she's now the notorious girlfriend of one the most famous vigilantes in the city. Which brings me to the initial question: can Karen truly be happy at this point? And most importantly in the light of this being a Kastle biased analysis: is the reason Frank and Karen can't be together even valid anymore? Cause she's right now in the exact same situation she'd be if she was dating Frank. Do I think all of this was done on purpose? Probably not. Do I think there's still a chance for Frank and Karen to explore their feelings? Yes of course.
I gotta say, One Last Kill was a game changer in that perspective. It truly gave me the hope that we haven't seen the last of Kastle. It's such a small scene comprised in a 40 minutes special but it holds so much importance for Frank's psyche that it has me excited for the future.
In One Last Kill, we see Frank in a much worse place than we last saw him. He is in a bad mental place and it seems like he has lost every purpose. He doesn't know what he's meant to do anymore, he doesn't know what he's alive for.
He's trying to kill every last person alive connected to the death of his family and the news narrates that he's succeeding. He's pained by visions of his wife and kids and hallucinations of friendly faces talking to him, like Curtis for example.
The peculiarity of these hallucinations is that they all talk to him but he doesn't talk back nor tries to have contact with them, he's just tormented by them and wishes they would just stop. Even when he tries to talk to Lisa, she disappears before he has the chance to.
Also...he's not in a hideout anymore? He's staying in an apartment complex near Little Sicily.
He goes to visit Lisa's grave and there he has several vision of his kids and Maria. It's important to mention how he sees Maria:
While he is on the streets he hallucinates Curtis once again who tells him that he's got nothing left to do.
When he goes back home, Ma Gnucci is out there waiting for him and she tells him that he has a bounty on his head and every single criminal of the neighborhood is going to come look for him that afternoon to kill him and everyone that gets in the way.
Back in his apartment. He's washing his face when he hears Karen's voice. His voice of reason.
"You scared Frank?"
And there she is, wearing the same hoodie Maria was wearing in the previous vision. The parallel is so obvious that it doesn't even need to be explained. Karen is in all respects taking the "mantle" of Frank's wife. It allows us to see that there is, in fact, another woman in Frank's life who is on the same level of Maria and that's Karen and it's always been her.
Even as a simple hallucination Karen's the one who's trying to get some reaction out of him and she the only one who succeeds in that.
"You're not a victim. You choose it." Remember "I've never called myself a victim in my life?" now he's picturing Karen telling him those things. And I think that it's because probably in his head, if Karen's the one saying them, it means they must be true. "Come home from deployment out the door the next day uh?" This is another thing that Frank has specifically told Karen he was guilty of. It's clear that hearing them from her validate those guilts even more. And to be fair, even though Karen has always been deeply honest with him, it is different from the Karen who usually speaks to him. "Just couldn't wait to get back out there. You chose it. You chose it over them."
For the first time, Frank actually speaks back to one of his hallucinations.
"That's bullshit. I didn't---"
"Frank, that was never your plan. Father? Daddy? Husband? That was a costume. You couldn't wait to get back where it made sense. (could also be an hypothetical follow up post hospital scene tbh) You failed. You fucking failed them. You're a failure! You failed your family and now you're failing the city. Coward!"
I love how she's yelling at him the worst things he's ever heard in his entire life and he's like....Karen...are you here...my baby...with those desperate eyes. And she's the only one whose actual presence he questions. He needed to know. She's also the only one he actually touches.
"Are you here? Karen, are you here? Are you... are you with me?"
To be loved to the point of hallucination
"Yeah Frank, Yeah."
A softer Karen makes now space in his mind, much more similar to the Karen he knows and love.
Karen hugs and comforts him and I wonder how many times has he spent wishing she was actually there and he could actually hug her. It's been YEARS since they've actually hugged each other. The last time they saw each other they didn't even stand close. It must be killing him if he imagines her doing that.
"I'm here. It's okay. It's good. I'm always here." (In his mind for sure)
"But there's still more for you to do."
When she caresses his cheek after pulling away from the hug I feel like he might have started to seriously believe, cause that touch felt real to him, that's why he tries to close the gap.
He was immediately going for the kiss, boy was STARVEDDDD. Who knows how many times he's been dreaming about kissing her. Let's not forget they lost two (2) chances at kissing already (third's time the charm maybe who knows). I also liked that they didn't actually kiss: 1) cause well it's not the real karen 2) it will make their first real kiss much more special and anticipated 3) it could symbolize that he needs to kiss her when he's in an actual state of peace and he knows exactly who is
"What time is it?"
And just like that, the hallucination ends and Frank is left hugging his own body.
He realizes it's almost time for the killers to come, puts on "La vie en rose" and gets back to business.
Pointing this out just for funsies
Which could mean nothing! One could argue Frank is also carefree being the Punisher. Sure, but then again, it's Karen who put that in motion without even actually being there.
It's Karen who gives him the strenght to keep going. It's Karen who gives him a reason to believe again he has a purpose. He imagined her like that cause Karen's real version probably wouldn't have been much different anyway. Cause she's been her number 1 supporter since day 1 pretty much.
At the end of the special we pretty much see the Frank that we'll see in Brand New Day. A vigilante shaping up to become an anti-hero who helps people in need.
Which now just leaves me with my hopes for the future.
Well first of all, I definitely want Frank to come back in season 3 of Born Again, I don't care if it's just the last episode of the season or a 5 minute appearance, I'll take what I can get. There is however, an obstacle in being in ddba s3 which is that I don't think something major could ever happen with kastle in a show whose main character is Daredevil, unless of course they set him up with Elektra at the same time. Most importantly I don't want Karen in BA s3 to only revolve around Matt, maybe this time it's up to her to find her purpose after everything that happened in NY and really question if her future with Matt is what she wants or it's just a projection of their shared trauma. Ultimately I think deep down she would give Frank another chance if she was presented with the opportunity.
The best solution would be if they picked up a Punisher show where he dedicates his life to minor, non world endangering threats and Karen is a main recurring character who helps him investigating. It would be nice if it actually had ties to other mcu characters. I want the street style mcu tv shows to still feel like they're apart of the shared universe even if the heroes do their own thing and deal with more ordinary threats.
As we all know by now, Frank will appear in Brand New Day. It's a thing I look forward to and it feels full circle, especially when you think the Punisher actually was created as a Spiderman villain.
I'm not expecting much kastle related content in a such jam packed and intense movie, I'm not even going to dare hoping that Karen might phisically show up, but I do think that Frank having to deal with a situation where Peter wants to protect the woman he loves and who he lost/can't be with for a series of a circumstances is such a missed opportunity if it's not used to make Frank talk about Karen. He doesn't even have to say her name esplicitely he could just simply allude at the fact that just like Peter, he also has someone he can't be with for a series of reasons which include the responsibilities of what they do. The idea of Peter and Mj reuniting giving Frank hope he can see Karen soon is just…chef’s kiss
And Peter being the empath that he is, could even encourage him to at least try to give himself a chance to tell her how he feels. And maybe the movie can end with Frank trying to find a way to contact Karen again. After all, is Karen not aware he's roaming freely through the streets of NY with another red spandex superhero?
I guess only July 31st will tell us that.
And here we are. This long ass meta has finally reaches his conclusion. Let me know if you want maybe to read it in a single encapsuled space I could idk, create a substack account and make a single article so you can all read it better. Or maybe I'll do it anyway who cares! Free will! I'll see what to do once I pass my exams (i've been more proficient on this analysis than at studying). Until next time! Bye and thanks so much for reading! <3
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