completely transparent wank-bait of a poll, but okay.
through the character of Bruce Wayne, in order to justify permanently getting rid of Robin. it started before ADitF, and continued during and after. it's not actually possible to separate the victim blaming after Jason's death from the rhetoric leading into it beforehand, and efforts to do so to me usually come across as disingenuous.
Batman (1940) #416 - by Jim Starlin
One Year Ago.
Bruce (narrating): No matter what I say, Robin likes to go it on his own whenever he gets the chance. The trouble is that he's nowhere near as good as he thinks he is. He's new at this dangerous game, there are still a lot of tricks he's yet to learn. That's how he ended up in that mess last night.
Bruce (narrating): He'd trailed a dealer to the coke lab. Robin was so pleased with his discovery that he got careless. He should have known a setup like that would have guards posted outside. Especially on the roof. Sloppy. Very sloppy. In this business, you don't usually live long enough to realize your mistakes. The penalties for fouling up are high...
Bruce (narrating): I've been trying to keep Robin alive long enough to become one of those chosen few. But he doesn't make it very easy.
this is also the flashback issue where Dick and post-Crisis Jason first meet. and though they bond throughout and end the issue on good terms after their initial friction, Dick didn't need anyone else to tell him about Jason's reckless tendencies - he knew about those from their first meeting.
Batman (1940) #426 - by Jim Starlin
Bruce (narrating): Suddenly my partner runs out of patience. That's the way it goes sometimes with the best laid plans of mice and men.
Batman: Robin!! What do you think you're doing?!
Robin (jumping down from above): What I was trained to do! Gonna kick some tail!!
Bruce (narrating): I should have known something like this would happen. Robin--Jason Todd--had been acting oddly of late. Very moody. Resentful. Reckless. That attitude is about to get him killed.
Batman: What's worse, you nearly got yourself killed doing it.
Robin: Near misses don't count.
Batman: What do you think we're doing here?! Playing some game?
Robin: Of course. All life's a game.
Batman: Jason! Where are you?!
Batman: I warned you not to take on the Joker by yourself. I begged you to wait, Jason. But of course you didn't. You never listen. Why? WHY? Why didn't I see that you were too young for this kind of work? How could I have been so stupid?
the pivot from Starlin hoping to deep-six Robin forever to Wolfman preparing to onboard Tim as the new Robin didn't start this rhetoric, it just continued it, because that was what had been established as canon, and was the environment the mantle of Robin now needed to make an argument for its continued existence in.
and from an in-character Watsonian perspective, the line of who-puts-blame-on-Jason still goes from Bruce to Dick (to arguably Alfred) to Tim.
New Titans #55 - by Marv Wolfman, George Pérez
Bruce (standing over Dick after punching him in the face): Why did I think I needed a partner? They slow you down. They make you worry about them rather than doing your job! He wouldn't listen. He wanted to do everything his way. He was just like you. In a few years I would have had to fire him as I did you.
Batman (1940) #442 - by Marv Wolfman, George Pérez
Tim: Mr. Wayne, even if you don't want me to be the new Robin... this has been the greatest day of my life.
Dick: Bruce, you have to admit he was good.
Alfred: And from what Master Richard says, he follows your orders.
Bruce: I don't want a partner. It's as simple as that.
Alfred deliberately contrasting against Jason :/ as he knows Bruce has been obsessing over 'if only Jason had just followed his orders, he wouldn't have died'. Tim probably doesn't put this together right at the time, but boy do I expect it slotted in with everything else he heard later.
Batman (1940) #443 - by Marv Wolfman
Bruce: You're a novice. In kindergarten as far as I'm concerned.
Tim: But, how long will it be before I'm ready?
Bruce: I'm not making any mistakes this time. You'll be ready when I say you're ready.
Bruce also contrasting against Jason :/ heavily implying, directly to Tim, all the 'mistakes' he thinks he made last time, and conveying the idea/belief that Jason thought he was ready before he actually was. Bruce has a lot of context in his head coloring and complicating this statement. Tim does not.
New Titans #65 - by Marv Wolfman
Tim: Whewww! I thought this was going to be a snap.
Dick: So did Jason. Only he never learned better. Trust me--Batman won't let that happen again.
Dick's first meeting with post-Crisis Jason (first impression of inexperienced, reckless enthusiasm) and also his confrontation with Bruce after Jason's death (where Bruce reinforced the idea that Jason not listening to him and wanting to do everything his own way played a part in his death) both circle back here. Dick already has the idea that Jason was reckless and didn't take Robin seriously enough to survive in his head, and he's teaching it to Tim to try and make sure he survives.
all of the above instances happen before anything negative Tim says about Jason, beyond "[Batman] seemed happier with Dick" in ALPOD (Batman #440), which, while definitely part of Bat editorial's effort to recharacterize Jason's time as Robin, is not actually Tim victim-blaming Jason in any fashion.
hm, I wonder if these comments are going to affect Tim's view of Jason, whom he himself never met?
Batman (1940) #465 - by Alan Grant
Tim's hallucination of Dick as Robin: You're training to fight in a war, Tim. It'll last all your life. No matter what, you have to go on fighting.
Tim's hallucination of Jason as Robin: Drop-outs don't make it. And dead heroes are no use to anyone! I thought I knew better than Batman. I thought I could run before I could walk. I killed myself, Tim. Because I couldn't wait. Because I didn't think it through.
leaving aside the context that this is a device for Tim to directly parallel, and indeed project, his own situation (if Tim disobeys Batman's orders to go out as Robin in order to save him from Scarecrow, he will consider it his own responsibility if he gets killed) - hm, this sure sounds familiar. like this is rhetoric he's. heard from Jason's own family before. hm.
--as an aside, this is a hallucination happening in Tim's own head. if anyone is going to count this as victim-blaming, they had better also be counting every other instance that happens in other characters' thoughts/narration bubbles/hallucinations, rather than out loud to another party (cough, pointing at all of Bruce's panels from Starlin above, cough :|)
Detective Comics (1937) #646 - by Chuck Dixon
Batman (yelling): You were cocky! He could have killed you. I might not have been there to save you.
Robin!Tim (looking down): I... I...
Batman: You took a chance. You got lucky.
Robin!Tim: (looking up at Batman silently, brow creased)
Batman: Sorry, Robin. I...
Robin!Tim: It's okay.
Batman: No. I'm really sorry. I just worry that you'll start thinking of this as a game.
I always think of this as Bruce desperately wishing he'd had the chance to yell at, apologize to, and encourage Jason this way, if only he'd lived.
anyway, very familiar language, no? this sort of very obvious reaction to Jason's death and having it hang it over Tim's head happened all the time. one of the era's most common narrative beats. on a Watsonian level, what does Tim absorb from this about his predecessor's most pertinent traits, which his mentors frequently stress and train him to avoid?
Robin (1993) #10 - by Chuck Dixon
Robin!Tim: No way! He messed up this time and I'm going to peg him.
Time-traveling Robin!Dick: You think I'd do that? Was the guy who replaced me this reckless?
Tim (internally): Jason.
Tim: Okay. We take it slow.
again, as above. a reaction from Tim reflecting the lessons he's internalized about his predecessor and what not to do as Robin.
to be clear, I'm not making a judgment on Jason as Robin - this is just what Tim absorbed from how Bruce and Dick trained him and used Jason as a cautionary tale in the wake of Jason's death.
Nightwing (1994) #25 - by Chuck Dixon
Tim (train-surfing as Robin with Dick as Nightwing): You ever think about him?
Dick: Who?
Tim: The "other" Robin.
Dick: Oh. Sometimes.
Tim: Me too. All the time.
Dick: Look, Jason wasn't--
Tim: I know. I'm not like Jason. But what if I have some other flaw?
Dick: Like what?
Tim: Sometimes I think I go too far the other way. Too cautious.
one of the few times we have Tim talking about Jason out loud to another person, and it's a fair amount of time later. this is during Aftershock, just before No Man's Land, so Tim is 15 and has been Robin for a couple of years already. as we can see, this is reflecting the lessons he's learned above. and we also have Dick not contesting the 'flaw' (recklessness) that Tim is talking around. because he's well aware of it.
anyway, this is already much too long, and I could go on rummaging around pulling panels for years probably.
in conclusion, Bruce if I have to choose a character, but mostly "who initiated victim blaming Jason after his death" ought to be Starlin / DC editorial / the authors.
romaincrisis
kianamaiart
origamiaround
areudirty
prguitarman
theartofmadeline
