Something I've been trying to articulate to myself for a while here, but I wish there were more discussion about the particular experiences of trans men who are attracted to men. Especially the way that it relates to our experiences before coming out and during transition.
A lot of the conversations I see online and in academia focus on the experiences and overlap between trans men and butch lesbians, which is just not a narrative that resonates with me. There has been no point in my life at which I identified as a lesbian, or even as particularly attracted to women in general (something something sexuality is complicated). And it is only recently that I've really been able to let myself jive with being a butch man.
So, what did that experience look like for me?
It looked like trying desperately to perform the right kind of femininity so that straight guys would be attracted to me. Admittedly, it was a "not like other girls" sort of femininity, but I suspect a lot of trans guys and straight women will understand me when I say that this particular kind of femininity is still... very constricting. You gotta be "tough" of course, and have the right sorts of interests, and not care too much about your looks, but at the end of the day still be pretty, not too loud, and pretty willing to give ground for straight men to feel cool. You absolutely cannot be butch, because butch is for lesbians, and you want to be attractive to men.
And then I came out, and now I was a man, so I was free of all of that, right? Right?
Well, turns out there's a whole lot to unpack and unlearn there, and doing that takes a long time. For the first several years of my transition, I was still stuck in this mindset of needing to adhere to all the same constraints I had been under before. The guy I was dating at the time didn't help with this, and I almost said that's another story, but it isn't. The fact that I was willing to keep dating a guy who wanted me to stay pretty and feminine, who told me that body hair was gross, and who in a thousand other little ways made it very clear that I would only stay lovable if I stayed feminine... the fact that I was ok with that, it says a lot about where my mind was at.
I'm sure that a lot of lesbians can relate to some of this, and yet. Becoming who I am, genuinely relaxing into myself and unfolding in the way that I needed to, that process was undeniably and indelibly marked by my experiences as someone who has always been attracted to and wanted to attract men.
It is extremely frustrating to be a butch gay trans man in queer spaces where everything about you is assumed to be attracted to women, if not now then sometime in your past. Even the concept of t4t, which implies nothing whatsoever about gender, is assumed to be transfems/transmasc. We somehow loop back around to heteronormativity but make it trans sometimes and there's so much lateral violence already that saying in any way that I feel left out feels counterproductive. I don't want to take anything away from discussion of transmasc lesbians and our other siblings who I can see going through it on the daily, it would just be nice if there were spaces where being attracted to women was not treated as some universal experience.
Hey @romantorchdick I read your addition to the post and I appreciate you adding your experiences to this. A lot of this resonates with me as a butch transsexual, and I like seeing people have this conversation. There's something about your response that I'd like to challenge, however: your assertions about t4t.
Firstly, and I feel most importantly, any assumption that t4t is transmasc/transfem is not "looping back around to heteronormativity but make it trans" is just biphobic. It's some of the plainest and most classic intra-community biphobia there is! Check that with your coat at the door next time please - there's no place for actual lateral queerphobia in these discussions.
Adding to that, if you're talking to mainly trans masc dykes, then yes, there is often a thread of butch/femme to those discussions that may make someone assume t4t is a masc/fem trans couple because it's reflective of butch/femme culture. I'm sorry that conversation was not for you, but calling that heteronormative is lesbophobic and more of that lateral aggression you are against.
It's not lateral violence for someone to make the assumption that t4t means masc4fem. Unfortunately, you feeling left out is neither violence itself, nor a reason to make other people mind readers. If you're uncomfortable and you don't speak up, that's a personal problem, not a community one.
I think people often seek out very specific spaces, rather than looking at the amount of overlap (or, yk, at their own language). Even explicitly dyke spaces in my city are filled with dykefags, bisexuals of every gender, and people who are just Queer. I have found a lot of spaces (particularly online but also in person) where the default is to assume that someone is gay in a "attracted to people like themselves" way. This leaves space for gay trans mascs and dykes of any gender to talk in ways that build community, rather than tear each other down. I hope you find that soon.
Sorry but if everyone is assuming that the people in t4t relationships are a man dating a woman that is indeed heteronormativity but make it trans. If your assumption of a default relationship type is man/woman, that's heteronormativity baby! If you hear a trans man call himself t4t and then get mad that he doesn't date trans women despite being t4t (something that I have in fact witnessed), well guess what, that's heteronormativity but-- well, look at that, you're making it trans!
I was not talking about the relationships, I was talking about the way these words are assumed to be used.
I'm not going to address the rest of this because it's making a lot of assumptions about me that I don't think is fair, and I have better things to do than correct everything you've assumed about me from one Tumblr post.
This is a vent from two gay trans men talking about the ways they feel like their community tends to ignore them. Assuming it's our own fault for not speaking up or going to the right places is not helpful.
@romantorchdick I accept your apology for grossly misreading what I said.
I have shown, through my response, that you are wrong in saying that is what everyone assumes. That there are many groups and places where that is not the norm and wished you well in finding those spaces. You're literally mad about that. Okay.
I actually wrote out a response that Obviously it's different if you say you're a gay man and t4t and people continue to assume you will date women. Then I thought, no, this seems like a capable adult and I'll assume good faith and that I won't need to say that outright homophobia is not the same thing as heteronormative assumptions. And yet here we are lmao. We piss on the poor here.
The fact that this is a vent post doesn't stop biphobic and queerphobic things slipping through. I'm not "assuming it's your fault", I'm taking the words you said (that there's so much lateral violence that speaking up feels counterproductive a lot of the time) and explaining that, while uncomfortable, that not speaking up makes it a personal issue, rather than on the community as a whole. I also didn't say it was your fault for not finding the right spaces, and in fact wished you the ability to have your space! That's how up your own ass you are about me calling out your shitty attitude towards queer/bi people. I'm literally a gay butch transsexual, I am "part of your community", and yet this is how you act? Maybe it's better you stay home.
Hey whoa. Pump the brakes there @butchpedia. Not to put too fine a point on it, but you seem to have managed to misunderstand or misconstrue just about everything either I or @romantorchdick were saying here.
Let's see if we can break this down a bit to help you understand where you went wrong.
Here's the first thing you say:
Firstly, and I feel most importantly, any assumption that t4t is transmasc/transfem is not "looping back around to heteronormativity but make it trans" is just biphobic.
This is grammatically confusing, but typos aside, I take it that you mean it's biphobic to think that a lot of folks say "t4t" but mean "transmasc dating transfem." I'm really not sure how you got "I have beef with bisexual people" out of that. Roman wasn't saying that it's a problem that this is one thing people think of when they talk about t4t, but that it's the main or even the only thing they're thinking about. And tbh, I would guess that fact also annoys a lot of bisexual people.
Point the second:
Adding to that, if you're talking to mainly trans masc dykes, then yes, there is often a thread of butch/femme to those discussions that may make someone assume t4t is a masc/fem trans couple because it's reflective of butch/femme culture. I'm sorry that conversation was not for you, but calling that heteronormative is lesbophobic and more of that lateral aggression you are against.
Fortunately, neither of us were talking about transmasc dykes. Sort of by definition, because we are talking about the experiences of gay trans men. And in fact, pointing out that something we said could be (however incorrecetly) construed to be about lesbians, kind of supports my original point! I'm not a lesbian, and I never have been! It was your assumption that just because someone brought up t4t relationships, he was thinking about lesbians. Again, there is a definite, relatively mainstream segment of the community who celebrate t4t relationships and are talking explicitly about hetero relationships between transmascs and transfemmes. Once again, I'm guessing that plenty of people in the lesbian community are also not happy about that, but like you said, that's not my conversation. And in fact, neither of us were saying anything about it. If anything, we are saying we want less to do with it, because we are not lesbians.
Point the third:
It's not lateral violence for someone to make the assumption that t4t means masc4fem. Unfortunately, you feeling left out is neither violence itself, nor a reason to make other people mind readers. If you're uncomfortable and you don't speak up, that's a personal problem, not a community one.
We didn't say this was "violence;" we said it was annoying and alienating. We're both mature enough to tell the difference. We are speaking up. That's the point of this post.
Point the fourth:
I think people often seek out very specific spaces, rather than looking at the amount of overlap (or, yk, at their own language). Even explicitly dyke spaces in my city are filled with dykefags, bisexuals of every gender, and people who are just Queer.
I don't know how to put this any more clearly than I did in the original post, but the point I was making is that I'm tired of the assumption that because I'm a trans man I belong in lesbian spaces. Even if they're generally welcoming, that's still a lesbian space. That's not where I want to be. That's my whole point.
Point the fifth, from your tags:
This is not remotely what I was talking about. Have I learned a lot of internal misogyny over the years? Yes. That is not what this post is about. This post is about the fact that I, as a gay trans man who has never been attracted to women, feel alienated and wong-footed because most of the conversation about trans men focuses on the subsection of trans men who are heterosexual or lesbians and spent a lot of time in lesbian communities. That does not and never has been my experience, and it has strongly affected how I relate to my own masculinity and the process of me being able to step into my authentic self.
