[cenkrett]

“Narcissistic abuse” is not real. There’s no such thing. It flat out doesn’t exist.

There are some narcissists who are horribly abusive, and under no circumstances is that to be permitted or condoned. Abuse is never acceptable, regardless of who commits it.

Narcissistic Personality Disorder can, in some people, increase the risk of abusive behavior. Several of the symptoms make it easier for one with the disorder to fall into patterns abusive behavior, and a lack of empathy and remorse can exacerbate this. It is the responsibility of anyone with NPD to ensure that they never become abusive. Having a personality disorder does not, in any sense whatsoever, excuse abusive behavior.

However, the abuse itself is not fundamentally different from any other kind of abuse. It’s just abuse. It’s heinous and reprehensible, and no one should have to experience being abused. But there’s nothing special or unusual about the abuse, nothing intrinsically distinct from abuse by someone who isn’t a narcissist. The term “narcissistic abuse” is misleading and grossly inaccurate. It also frames the abuse in a way that places blame on the disorder, rather than the person. “Narcissistic abuse” is just regular abuse committed by a narcissist.

Many people with NPD are not abusive at all, and a higher risk of abusive behavior is not the same as being predestined to abuse someone. There is no reason to assume that someone with NPD will necessarily be abusive, and to act as if those with the disorder are inherently abusive is both defamatory and dangerous.

Some narcissists can be abusive. Abuse is never okay. “Narcissistic abuse” does not exist.

[npd-and-me]

Well said.

[refinery29]

The psychiatrist who wrote the criteria for narcissism just made an extremely important point about what’s wrong with diagnosing Trump with mental disorders

Dr. Allen Frances says in speculating about Trump’s mental health, we are doing a disservice to those who do suffer from mental illness. In a series of tweets, he explained why he doesn’t think Trump is a narcissist — and how harmful it can be for us to keep assuming that he is.

[audacityinblack]

Fucking THIS.

We need to stop assuming every horrible person is mentally ill.

[bleufeenix]

Oh man THIS is so important! Not all miscreants, tyrants, bullies & horrid people out there are mentally ill.

[cbt-rebt-mindfulness-recovery]

@everybodyhasabrain

[everybodyhasabrain]

As difficult as it may be, try to set aside the Trumpian focus here for a moment, and let’s just talk about the DSM diagnostics–the criteria set by the American Psychiatric Association that are used widely in many parts of the world to diagnose mental illnesses. What you see there in Dr. Frances’ tweets are wonderful examples of the failings of the DSM. Let’s go through some of them:

THE “DISTRESS CLAUSE”

You can find the “distress clause” in numerous DSM IV and DSM 5 diagnoses. It basically says: if the patient is not distressed by the symptoms, they don’t have the illness. Dr. Frances cites that clause in his tweets.

This is particularly absurd when we’re talking about narcissists. Have you ever been in relationship with a narcissist? They aren’t distressed by what they do to you. That’s the point.

One of my favourite quotes about narcissism is that: “Narcissism is the one mental illness for which only the victim gets therapy.” I don’t know the original source for that other than EVERY PERSON THAT’S BEEN IN A RELATIONSHIP WITH A NARCISSIST.

IMPAIRMENT

The mention of “impairment” also points out a serious flaw in many DSM diagnoses. They fail to factor in privilege and social determinants of health. A rich white guy isn’t going to be impaired by his compulsions in the same way that a marginalized person would be. The rich guy has the social or financial capital as well as the leniency in the systems with which he interacts to get away with compulsions to an extent that others can’t. Many a good lawyer can buy you out of “impairment”.

This focus on impairment in the DSM can just as easily lead to over-diagnoses of mental illnesses when people are actually struggling with social or environmental barriers. Somebody who’s struggling with financial, housing, or food insecurity will be far more likely to get stuck with the additional burden of an illness label, when they’d actually be far more capable of handling the stuff in their head if they had support in other areas of their lives. 

Even a “healthy” person that can’t access food gets impaired pretty damn quickly.

REWARD

The idea that we don’t get rewarded for mental illness symptoms is often a barrier when it comes to getting started on recovery. From years of practicing mental illness, we’ve often come to conflate our identities with our symptoms. Other people know us for them. We get rewarded for them. With OCD, for instance, sufferers can always clearly point to moments in the past when being particularly obsessive about work got them good grades or a promotion. They were the dedicated one, the one that spotted the problems! The fear of giving that up can interfere with getting help.

Celebrities get rewarded all of the time for self-destructive behaviours. They get more attention. They get their own reality TV show empires. And, sadly, we love our self-deprecating, self-destructing comedians.

The idea that people don’t get rewarded in business for their mental illness compulsions is just not accurate. Books like the “Psychopath Test” and “Snakes in Suits” have all explored how psychopaths gravitate to leadership positions. Sure, a lot of the time psychopaths end up in prison, but on the way there, they’re doing a lot of damage and they’re getting rewarded.

BAD, NOT MAD

I agree with the general sentiment that we don’t need to stick mental illness labels on people. Saying that somebody has a mental illness definitely shouldn’t be an excuse to harm others. There are so many people, every day, all over the world, who are doing the incredibly tough work to experience the stuff in their heads–intrusive thoughts urging them to hurt others or themselves–and they’re choosing not to listen to that stuff. They’ve had mental illness labels stuck on them but those labels don’t control their lives and they’re making healthy decisions for themselves and their communities. If a leader has a mental illness, that doesn’t have to stop them from making healthy decisions for the people they serve. That’s what we need to be talking about here. What’s the healthy way to govern? How do we want our leaders to treat others? What kind of world do we want to live in? 

There are forces in this world that have a long history of oppressing marginalized people, that view the world from a narrow, stunted cultural perspective, that stigmatize those with disabilities, that prop up and encourage institutionalized violence… and that’s just the DSM. So when we’re having this conversation about how to govern and lead in a healthy way, let’s set aside that weapon that inspires a vomiting reflex in so many people that have had it used against them. It’s literally made a lot of people mad and it’s, frankly, quite bad.

[thisischarliespeaking-blog]

I’m so happy somewhere out there gets it. I don’t like the DSM, and I don’t like this Allen Frances acting like he’s the authority on narcissism. To me, his tweets come across condescending. 

[leftblog-264948]

"I don't like this Allen Frances, an authority on narcissism, acting like he's an authority on narcissism"

[emotional-karuma]

These are hard times for narcissists, I need to know who is safe and who is not. Cause anti-narcissist shit is actually gonna fucking kill me at this rate. Trump is not a narcissist. Narcissists are not evil or abusive. There is a 99% chance that your armchair diagnosis of your abuser is fucking wrong. If you are close to a narcissist, you’ve probably abused them. You are probably still abusing them. No I’m not joking, identify the behaviour and stop. We are not things to be dealt with. We are people. NPD is just a disorder. We aren’t possessed by fucking demons or some shit. “Narcissistic abuse” DOES NOT EXIST. Narcissism is not a negative trait. As long as we are not causing harm we have no obligation to seek treatment for symptoms, no matter how uncomfortable our symptoms may make you. If you are having issues with a narcissist, consider this: You are probably the problem. Stop reading “How to deal with narcissist” articles and maybe try treating us like people and fucking listening to us about what we need. You might well find those issues go away! Jesus all most of us are looking for is to just be treated well and to be loved, we aren’t fucking asking for much, and still most of you would rather see us dead.  Anyway time you folks who fucking claim to be so against ableism and claim you fucking care about mentally ill people, now would be a fucking great time to prove this with how much narc-hate has been increasing lately.  This isn’t a guilt trip, I’m just pointing out what I’ve noticed. Almost all of the notes on every NPD post I have ever made are people with NPD. Almost all of the notes on every NPD post I have reblogged or seen is people with NPD. Every NPD positivity post that has ever been on my dash was reblogged by someone with NPD, and the rest of you are quite happy to casually throw narcissists under the bus for your “funny” posts (and not even tagging for ableism? thanks.) The exceptions are mostly people with ASPD and a few with other PDs. I fucking try searching my fucking disorder for some Relateable Content to make me feel better and I leave the tag in tears and actively suicidal.  idk just please start caring about narcissts

[f1rstperson]

Not only that, but all the people I see pulling this shit are attributing all the bad things he does to mental illness/being a narcissist, which is BULL. SHIT. 

Trump racism has nothing to do with narcissism. Trump having an entire cabinet filled with neonazis has nothing to do with narcissism. Trump’s misogyny has nothing to do with narcissism. Trump lying to the public has nothing to do with narcissism. Trump’s blatant dismissal of people’s rights, existing laws, and our constitution has nothing to do with narcissism.

All this shit has to do with him being a privileged rich white dude, who benefits from systems of racism, misogyny, and antisemitism. There are a lot of people who don’t wanna point those issues out, who’d rather pretend like all this must be happening because somehow a “narcissist” accidentally got elected to office, I think because otherwise they’d have to examine how complicit they’ve been in perpetuating things like racism/misogyny/antisemitism/etc. It’s easier just to go, “Well, this is happening because he’s clearly mentally ill! Unlike me!!”

[refinery29]

The psychiatrist who wrote the criteria for narcissism just made an extremely important point about what’s wrong with diagnosing Trump with mental disorders

Dr. Allen Frances says in speculating about Trump’s mental health, we are doing a disservice to those who do suffer from mental illness. In a series of tweets, he explained why he doesn’t think Trump is a narcissist — and how harmful it can be for us to keep assuming that he is.

[vain-suggestions]

Stop treating me like a neurotypical with an attitude problem.

[poly-pan-cakes]

Even if that’s what I am.

[leftblog-264948]

That's nice, tumblr user poly-pan-cakes, but this was a post about cluster B personality disorders.

[leftblog-264948]

some ableist: narcissists are incapable of love!!!! they don't care about anyone but themselves!!!!!!!

me, a narcissist, clinging to my partner like a koala: this is my person and i love and care about them more than anything, Do Not Test Me

[bpdcrowe]

me: has no empathy but still has a moral compass nts: ???

[mystical-winter]

Did you know: knocking narcissists “down a peg” or being mean to narcissists in general won’t make them stop being narcissists

[sociobatty-deactivated20170124]

In fact, trying to harm our self esteem is a form of emotional abuse! For many of us, it’s the exact type of abuse that lead to the development of npd in the first place!

[leftblog-264948]

The thing is, when you refer to an abusive person as “my narcissist mother” or “my NPD ex” or anything like that, whether the person actually has a professional NPD diagnosis or not, you’re strengthening the myth that having NPD and being abusive are one and the same. For example, if I kept referring to one of my abusers as “my clinically depressed ex-friend” while only discussing how she abused me, the implication would be that there was a link between her depression and her abusive behaviour. People with NPD are more likely to be abuse victims than abusers, so all you’re doing is throwing fellow abuse victims under the bus by demonising us while you pretend to care about all your fellow survivors.

[56readng-deactivated20170121]

my NARCISSIST dad wasn’t abusive at all until he developed npd so I’d encourage you to consider other people and not just your hurt feelings

[leftblog-264948]

It’s literally impossible for someone to develop NPD during adulthood, but sure, asking people not to increase the dangerous stigma around a disorder is just “hurt feelings”. My dad would disown me if I told him about my NPD diagnosis, but it’s just “hurt feelings” every time I hear him rant about narcissists being irredeemably awful and I fear desperately for my future. Also, this post is not just about me; it’s about every other person with NPD who is being endangered by the stigma around the disorder. I’d encourage you to take your own advice and consider other people, please, because you seem to have completely missed the point of this post.

[leftblog-264948]

Telling someone "your abuse does not exist" or "your experience of your own abuse is wrong" you are complicit in the abuse and *proving* the NPD community is abusive.

…okay, what?

For starters, I have never done either of those things. I have explicitly stated on multiple occasions that all I want is for people to stop using the term “narcissistic abuse”, as it’s both inaccurate and unfairly stigmatizes the sufferers of a disorder that’s overwhelmingly caused by being abused as a child. I stand with my fellow abuse survivors, I support them, and I certainly don’t tell them that what happened to them wasn’t abuse.

What’s funny is that you’re making false accusations that I’ve been gaslighting abuse victims by disputing their experiences. Meanwhile, you’re actually the one gaslighting me by telling me that I’ve done something I have been incredibly careful to avoid; I’ve been careful enough to know with total certainty that I have absolutely never done what you claim I have. I don’t know whether the gaslighting was deliberate on your part, but I’d ask that you please be careful not to do that to people in future; it can be incredibly damaging to someone’s mental state, especially to trauma survivors who don’t know how to spot it.

Finally, if you have an issue with me, that issue is with me alone. Do not project your problems with one person onto an entire demographic; that’s neither logical nor fair. If you dislike something I’ve done, please don’t go blaming “the NPD community”. I try to act for the benefit of people who share my illness, but I’ve never claimed to be some kind of ambassador. Thanks for your message, and please have a good day.

[myservicedogadventure-deactivat]

I’m rebloging this to point out to my followers all the various points where emotional abuse tactics are used in this post. Hopefully, this will help some of you be better able to spot them should the need arise.

For starters, I have never done either of those things.

The OP has, in fact, done both of those things. They have said “Let me make it absolutely clear to you. If someone claims to have been a victim of “narcissistic abuse”, they are wrong.” As well as “There is no such thing as “narcissistic abuse”, that’s the point.” (Narcissistic abuse, whether the OP likes it or not, is a recognized subtype of emotional abuse)

Categorically denying having said something is not only a lat out lie, but it is a form of a technique called “gaslighting.” Gaslighting is where the abuser tries to convince the victim that their perception of reality is faulty. In this case, OP is trying to convince Anon that their memory is is false and unreliable.

What’s funny is that you’re making false accusations that I’ve been gaslighting abuse victims by disputing their experiences. Meanwhile, you’re actually the one gaslighting me

This another favorite tactic of emotional abusers: make the victim seem like the abuser. Another form of gaslighting, this is also often used as part of a smear campaign intended to leave the victim isolated.

I’ve been careful enough to know with total certainty that I have absolutely never done what you claim I have. 

Abusers can sound quite certain during gaslighting.

I don’t know whether the gaslighting was deliberate on your part, but I’d ask that you please be careful not to do that to people in future; it can be incredibly damaging to someone’s mental state, especially to trauma survivors who don’t know how to spot it.

Again, trying to make a victim into an abuser. OP tries to make it seem like Anon, who was clearly acting out of defense of a community of abuse survivors, is a danger to trauma survivors everywhere.

Finally, if you have an issue with me, that issue is with me alone. Do not project your problems with one person onto an entire demographic; that’s neither logical nor fair. If you dislike something I’ve done, please don’t go blaming “the NPD community”.

This is a technique revolving around obscuring the truth. The truth is that the “narcissistic abuse does not exist” posts have been widely circulated among the NPD community. Several other NPD-based blogs have reiterated the sentiment.

Now, an outsider would say the OP is being very reasonable, however, given the additional information that their beliefs are widespread in the community then Anon’s conclusion makes more sense. Abusers are depending on the fact that outsiders don’t know the whole story. They tell bits and pieces and make the victim look unstable or even abusive. This is meant to isolate the victim from others. An isolated victim has no support. Has no backup. And has no where to go. Stay safe, loves!

[leftblog-264948]

“The OP has in fact done both of those things”

That is a blatant straw man argument you’ve got going there. Let me set the record straight on the sequence of events.

1: Anon accuses me of telling people that they have not experienced abuse, and/or that their own accounts of their experiences are inaccurate.

2: I refute that, I reaffirm that I stand with abuse survivors and do not ever tell them they haven’t experienced abuse, and I reiterate that all I want is for people to stop using harmful terminology.

3: You attempt to refute what I’ve said by twisting my words, trying to make me look like both a liar and an abuse apologist in the same breath.

If someone says “I’m a victim of narcissitic abuse”, my response is never “you’re not a victim at all”. My response is “That terminology hurts innocent victims of child abuse and I would ask that you don’t use it, please. Nevertheless, that does not make any of what happened to you okay, I believe your account of what you went through, and you did not deserve to experience that.” However, both you and the anon - assuming you’re different people, and I have good reason to suspect you may not be - are claiming that my response is the former, which is just plain inaccurate.

That being said, I’m afraid I do have to commend you on your impeccable sourcing of information to back up your case. Your sources for “narcissistic abuse” being a Legit Thing™ are all incredibly well-regarded, rigorously scientific publications such as “psychologytoday.com”, “goodtherapy.org”, and - wait for it - “elephantjournal.com”. If you’re going to link to sources, please at least try to make them a tiny little bit credible.

“Abusers can sound quite certain when gaslighting”

That right there? That’s called a double-bind, and it’s an emotional abuse tactic that I don’t appreciate being subjected to. Either I stand by my certainty and am labelled an abuser for daring to do so, or I drop my certainty and give the all-clear for you to call my statement of the facts “unreliable”, thereby “proving” myself to be an abuser by virtue of not being able to give “reliable” proof that I’m not one. Ironic, isn’t it, that you’re trying to pull a dirty trick like that while accusing me of being emotionally abusive.

“Again, trying to make a victim into an abuser”

No. Just no. I chose to give this person the benefit of the doubt, because that’s the damn polite thing to do the first time someone sends you a message. For all I knew, this person didn’t realise they were gaslighting, so I calmly explained what they were doing and why it’s a bad idea. I mentioned trauma survivors because I personally have friends who have been caught out by people using those tactics on them, and I want to ensure as best I can that it doesn’t happen again. Also, I have been that trauma survivor who couldn’t spot when someone was gaslighting them, and I’ve paid for it heavily with my mental health. This is an issue that’s very personal both to me and to my loved ones, so I felt that the decent thing to do was to pick anon up on it. I wasn’t trying to make anon feel bad, and I certainly didn’t intend to paint them as “a danger to trauma survivors everywhere”. That’s you sensationalizing what I’ve said in order to try and back up your own point.

“This is a technique revolving around obscuring the truth.”

How does that even stand up to the slightest bit of scrutiny? Someone came to me, accused me personally of something, and then said that my supposed actions proved something about “the NPD community”. I don’t act on behalf of everyone with NPD, not any more than I act on behalf of everyone who shares my birthday or any other arbitrary trait. Someone was projecting an issue they had with me alone onto countless people who have no influence on my actions. I challenged them on that because regardless of the accuracy of their initial premise for having a problem with me, I couldn’t see any justification for them blaming an entire demographic for the actions of one individual. You make some half-hearted attempt at a refutation by stating that some other NPD bloggers share my views, but that’s not even relevant to the topic at hand. Whether or not they agree with what I’m saying, that has no bearing on the fact that an entire demographic cannot be held responsible for my supposed actions. In what universe does saying “don’t blame people who have nothing to do with this” equate to “obscuring the truth”?

You use the phrase “the NPD community” as if every narcissist - and I use that term to mean someone who suffers from NPD - is part of some kind of weird conspiracy. To me, that phrase is as dissonant as “the depression community” or “the anxiety community”. We support each other just the same as sufferers of any other disorder, but it’s not like there is one monolithic Narcissist Agenda™.

This is not about “isolating a victim”. This is about defending myself from false accusations. For example, if someone tried to convince you that you’d left the TV on overnight and you proved that you categorically had not done that, would you be “isolating a victim”? No, you’d be standing up for yourself. This is no different. I’m allowed to stand up for myself, and I will. If you have anything else to say to me, my inbox is always open. I hope you have a lovely day.

[mystical-winter]

Full offense by narcissists who are abusive (as in actually proudly proclaiming that they’re abusive) and don’t make any active decision to change their behavior are fucking weak

[leftblog-264948]

Telling someone "your abuse does not exist" or "your experience of your own abuse is wrong" you are complicit in the abuse and *proving* the NPD community is abusive.

…okay, what?

For starters, I have never done either of those things. I have explicitly stated on multiple occasions that all I want is for people to stop using the term “narcissistic abuse”, as it’s both inaccurate and unfairly stigmatizes the sufferers of a disorder that’s overwhelmingly caused by being abused as a child. I stand with my fellow abuse survivors, I support them, and I certainly don’t tell them that what happened to them wasn’t abuse.

What’s funny is that you’re making false accusations that I’ve been gaslighting abuse victims by disputing their experiences. Meanwhile, you’re actually the one gaslighting me by telling me that I’ve done something I have been incredibly careful to avoid; I’ve been careful enough to know with total certainty that I have absolutely never done what you claim I have. I don’t know whether the gaslighting was deliberate on your part, but I’d ask that you please be careful not to do that to people in future; it can be incredibly damaging to someone’s mental state, especially to trauma survivors who don’t know how to spot it.

Finally, if you have an issue with me, that issue is with me alone. Do not project your problems with one person onto an entire demographic; that’s neither logical nor fair. If you dislike something I’ve done, please don’t go blaming “the NPD community”. I try to act for the benefit of people who share my illness, but I’ve never claimed to be some kind of ambassador. Thanks for your message, and please have a good day.

[leftblog-264948]

hey i lov u and i hope u have a good year

Thank you so much, anon! I've been very ill for the past few days so I needed a little positivity. Thank you for your kindness, and I hope you have an awesome year too! 🌼🎵

[leftblog-264948]

You're despicable. How dare you go into the narcissist abuse tag to harass and trigger abuse survivors and accuse them of being "neurotypical", when many are struggling with their mental health after the abuse they suffered.

Please calm down, friend. I’m not “harassing and triggering” anyone, nor do I have any malicious intent. I don’t “accuse” anyone of being neurotypical unless an individual I am talking to has specifically stated that they are neurotypical, in which case I will address them as such. What I’m doing is tagging my posts so that they reach the intended audience, i.e. people who sincerely believe in “narcissistic abuse” as a concept, so that I can explain to them why they’re wrong.

If you really think that I’m deliberately “accusing” fellow abuse survivors of being neurotypical, you have a fundamental misunderstanding of my aims. What I want to do is reduce the unfair stigma around NPD, a disorder overwhelmingly caused by childhood abuse, and clear up misconceptions spread maliciously or otherwise by people who do not have NPD. That involves making sure that my posts on the matter are visible to people who don’t already know what I’m saying, otherwise the whole endeavour is useless. I don’t think it’s despicable to educate people and try to stop them from indirectly harming others, and guess who else is “struggling with their mental health after the abuse they suffered”? Pretty much every single person with a personality disorder, cluster B or otherwise.

Let me make it absolutely clear to you. If someone claims to have been a victim of “narcissistic abuse”, they are wrong. That does not mean they are not a victim of some form of abuse, nor does it mean that they’re automatically neurotypical. I will support them just the same as I would support any other abuse victim. The only issue I have with them is that they’re promoting “narcissistic abuse” as a concept, and I’ve debunked that concept many times. All I’m doing is asking that people stop using an inaccurate term that unfairly stigmatises me and thousands of others. My inbox is always open if you have any more questions. I hope you have a good day.

[nopebucky-deactivated20230101]

I hate how every time someone dares make a post saying that people with personality disorders are not automatically abusive, everyone starts yelling about how people with these mental illnesses CAN be abusive, and Don’t You Forget It.

because like…..we know!! that’s why we have these posts in the first place - because do you know how damaging it is to constantly be told you’re incapable of meaningful relationships, you’re abusive, you’re manipulative and should be avoided, JUST because of your mental illness??

[thatnpdfeel]

Is is possibly an NPD thing to not be able to handle teasing at all? Like getting irrationally angry and defensive when teased in any way by friends or family members. I often feel attacked. and even inclined to lash out, when embarrassed in any way, and I didn't know if that could possibly be related.

Yes, it definitely is. I personally will become furious if someone teases me no matter how light hearted it is meant to be. Teasing is belittling and most often the intent is to make someone feel less, and since I am obviously better than them, they have no right to tease me. I do, however, allow some teasing if it is in a flirty manner by one of the people I love.

[leftblog-264948]

Me, externally: I don't need anyone! I am light years above these mere mortals

Me, internally: compliment me compliment me compliment me complime