shen jiu is OUR beloved bitch wife

scum villain-centric danmei sideblog yes i'm a filthy shen jiu stan, yes he did child abuse, no i don't think he's morally worse than luo bingge qijiu stan, fond of every sv character but if sj isn't there i'm not that interested ngl icon by starsnores

[littlenines]

it does make me laff that scum villain fandom is like "shen yuan is the most motherly milf mommy to ever mommy" but in-universe no-one really sees him that way. only person who sees him in a parental way, binghe, is explicitly like "he's like a Father to me"

[littlenines]

i think it's also comparable to how in canon people's views on shen yuan as shen qingqiu tend to be like "he's much nicer and i like him now he's had that personality-changing qi deviation" but the fandom likes to say it's "everyone is in love with this man"

[littlenines]

it does make me laff that scum villain fandom is like "shen yuan is the most motherly milf mommy to ever mommy" but in-universe no-one really sees him that way. only person who sees him in a parental way, binghe, is explicitly like "he's like a Father to me"

[eal-account]

would you like some of this in your that

[littlenines]

imagine pregnant sj who everyone expects to be a TOTAL nightmare but in fact he's just so horny and slutty that yqy has to tag in other guys to help satisfy him

[littlenines]

unpopular opinion time again but the only way to make a one-sided crush work for scumcum is if SY is the one with the crush; bc SJ fits many of his specifications (pretty, twinky, tragic backstory) but SY doesn't really fit any of SJ's. he's met plenty of rich boys who look down on him before.

[strobelune]

I don't feel like making separate posts for these so you're getting both of them or neither of them

I actually think wyz advised sj to kill his way out to escape the Qiu manor (based on his and sj's general mutual lack of surprise at seeing each other there and wyz going "you're not killing all of them?") which to me doesn't take away from the elation he felt in the immediate moment but I am sort of surprised I never see people pull that out as an excuse or way to make him an even sadder abused meowmeow and instead try to theorize about him murdering in a fit of qi deviation

my self-indulgent fantasy about sj finding out about yqy's cultivation is instead of him putting yqy on a pedestal as in canon he gets a sense of superiority and self-comfort about it like "my cultivation might be damaged but yqy's is actually way more horrifically fucked and none of the idiots fawning over him know this because none of them know him like I do" etc. in a possessive and kind of condescending and kind of horny way. and also then obviously he has to work overtime for the rest of their lives to make sure to nullify and minimize and eliminate all possible threats that could possibly make yqy draw his sword mostly because he does not want yqy to die but also additionally because he does not want anyone else to know about his sword problems

[littlenines]

i think the qi deviation theory is less because people are trying to extra meowmeowify sj (although imo I'm like. what's wrong with that) but because of the way he's described when murdering his way through the qiu household. it's very weird, almost like he's in a sort of fugue state. on one hand I like it being an active Choice that sj makes, to free himself and off everyone that he thinks could be an obstacle in his way after waiting for yqy for too long... on the other, it really read to me like, if not a qi deviation, then definitely some kind of psychosis.

[red-garden]

Actually it would be fun if, while Liu Qingge was still much better in a sword fight, Shen Jiu surpassed him in hand to hand combat. Shen Jiu was the smallest and angriest kid on the street, it wouldn’t surprise me if he were accustomed to fighting and beating foes much physically stronger than him. He’s just freakishly limber and good at spotting tells/thinking two steps ahead.

[littlenines]

4get "older sj fighting with baby lqg", imagine baby sj being adopted into the sect and immediately picking a fight with adult lqg who at this point has been there since he was 12. and baby sj has the element of surprise on his side and very nearly lays him out

[wifebeam5]

[sortumavaara]

Qijiu first kiss <3 They suck at it.

I really want them to have nice things (sometimes), I really do. I really also want to draw them being nasty (if you catch my drift). Sadly if I did, it would be a pinup of SQQ (jiu) that I would end up sending to my favourite ask blog. But I have concluded that I may be 1 message away from being blocked for being insufferable. ; - ; That would be really sad; I think they are a great hoot. So I won't make the nasty illustration(s). For now.

[spiffyspuffy]

In canon, what do you think are Shen Qingqiu (Shen Yuan) and Luo Binghe’s sexuality?

Luo Binghe is bisexual/Shen Qingqiu is gay

Luo Binghe is gay/Shen Qingqiu is bisexual

They’re both gay

They’re both bisexual

Voting ended onSep 25, 2025

[spiffyspuffy]

I love that most of us agree Shen Qingqiu is gay because YES. That man never has a sexual thought about a woman that whole series.

Even funnier is that Shen Yuan would be SO angry if he saw these results. “What do you mean I’m gay?! I’m a straight man who just happens to be attracted to Binghe. And who wouldn’t be? He is The Protagonist after all. 🙄”

[littlenines]

I hate to be like "um actually" but sy has several very sexual thoughts about women in svsss. ymmv on whether he is actually attracted to them or just has those feelings because he's used to reading about women as sex objects, but he thinks about the breast sizes of several women, calls NYY and SHL 'lolis', and is implied to have fantasised about QQQ.

[littlenines]

very uninterested in any AUs where sy is a slave alongside sj or has a sad backstory in any way and ESPECIALLY uninterested in the fanon of sy being chronically ill, bc I really think part of the whole point of sy as a character is that he IS immensely privileged in every way (which is what allows him to be mentally healthier and kinder than other people in worse situations), and ignoring canonically chronically ill characters like sj and yqy to try to give him something to make him whumpable rubs me the wrong way

[ineffectualdemon]

Some canon Shen Jiu facts and implied information

- no he didn't try to kill Liu Qingge when they were disciples and Liu Qingge jumped to conclusions

- yes he did ambush Liu Qingge frequently and unprovoked and loudly threatened to kill him in public for the sin of having talent and a positive home life

- yes Liu Qingge barged in on him when he was in the brothel

- no it wasn't unprovoked. Shen Jiu had beat the everloving shit out of his Shidi

- Said Shidi had made nasty remarks to Shen Jiu at the door of the brothel. Probably bad ones but no not good enough to justify almost beating a man to death

- implied he went to the brothel only to sleep

- heavily implied by Shang Qinghua that Shen Jiu was a virgin when he died in SVSSS

- no he didn't kill Liu Qingge in the caves but even he's like "I kinda get the allegations tbh"

- Shen Jiu did murder people pretty casually when he was a rogue cultivator including innocent people who did not deserve it

- He also abused the shit out of Luo Binghe for the sin of having potential and having once been loved. He strung up a child and whipped him bloody. This cannot be excused and indeed he doesn't make excuses for it

- unconfirmed if he had done this to others

- probable but unconfirmed that he gave Luo Binghe the fake cultivation manual. He specifically hated that Luo Binghe had potential and wanted to ruin it. [EDIT: @bayesiandragon reminded me that Shen Jiu is confirmed in canon that he did give Luo Binghe a fake manual. So that is canon. I knew I was right but couldn't remember it stated so couldn't back it up so all thanks to Bayesiandragon for that]

- he probably didn't have sexual intentions towards Ning Yingying BUT there is a good chance he did something to make her feel uncomfortable and unsafe. She sided with Luo Binghe in the end and Shen Jiu is a curious type of man hating misogynist and he is also very possessive over what he thinks of as his. I think he was more along the lines of a possessive parent who infantilised Ning Yingying and made her ultimately uncomfortable and unhappy. That is a headcanon but it's reasonable to suggest that in some way Ning Yingying was not having a good time by the time Bing-ge showed back up from the Abyss. Evidence is that SVSSS is allowed to mature in a way that PIDW Ning Yingying was not

- not knowing why Yue Qingyuan didn't show up did hurt him deeply but wasn't what doomed him. His belief that he was an irredeemable monster from birth because he would have preferred Yue Qi die then for him to become Yue Qingyuan, was what doomed him

- he is pitiful little mess of a man but he's also an abusive fuckhead these are both true

- he does not want to change and isn't willing to

[littlenines]

i agree with a good amount of this but there's some context i think we're missing:

- i don't think we know exactly how casual he was about murdering people as a rogue cultivator, idr if it's really mentioned in his extra, but it IS important to note at that point he was a child who'd just had to kill his way out of an insanely abusive situation and was currently being groomed/owned by a master he was said to be terrified of

- i don't think we can really say that's "what doomed him", because shen jiu only had that thought After he realised yue qingyuan was alive. like... one is not possible without the other, and the only reason he thought that in the first place was due to the overwhelming hurt he must have been feeling at that moment. (also important to note that sj has a brief thought that's like "this hurts so bad i'd rather he died" which he clearly doesn't even Mean as evidenced by the fact that every time yqy is in the slightest bit of harm sj throws himself in to try to save him... having a Bad Thought because you're in so much pain and deciding you're ontologically evil really makes him The BPD Character of sv to me)

- somewhat uncomfortable with "misogynist" being applied here because while i do think shen jiu engages in a form of benevolent misogyny where he assumes women don't have the intent to harm like men do, there's no actual dislike or feeling that women are lesser. the text also states that shen jiu doesn't want people to see him as weak for hiding behind women but i always interpreted it as "because society thinks this and he knows that" rather than "because HE thinks women are weak". though ymmv. either way, i feel like sj is the most.. Understandable character with not completely perfect views on women, given the setting he lives in and his own history with male violence. i have much less understanding of why bingge turned his violence onto women (the mass rapes) when his main abuser, sj, was a man; or why shen yuan is Like That about women as a generally pretty kind and compassionate man from modern day china lol (like one minute he's critiquing how sqh wrote women, the next he's calling nyy a dumb loli and describing every woman's boobs)

[ineffectualdemon]

To respectively defend my takes (I don't mind your reply and I think it's interesting)

- he is pretty casual about murder imo because he doesn't really care about murdering other cultivators until it's potentially Yue QI. Like yeah the reason he doesn't put much value on it he lives of random men is the Trauma but that doesn't change the fact that he killed people pretty casually. He also tried to kill Binghe when he was an innocent child by giving him a manual that should have killed him. The point is you can give context and even say there is a level of justification without downplaying that the murdered people

- I said that it doomed him because that was the moment he decided he could not change and was inherently evil from birth. It's not that that was true but it when he decided that and it became his truth to live and die by

- I call him a misogynist because he is pretty infantialising of the women around him. Especially Ning Yingying. Not out of cruelty or hatred but it is another flavour of trauma response. Ning Yingying has to remain helpless and ignorant so she can't save Luo Binghe like Qiu Haitang was too helpless and ignorant to save him. I don't know about OG Binghe actually raping anyone. But the only description of a sex scene involving him we are given is his first time where he is coercively raped by Qin Wanyue. Which considering that is his first sexual encounter is a defining moment for him. A lot of his other sexual encounters after that are about him having to use his body to cure others no matter how he feels about it. So I don't think OG Binghe understands consent. With Shen Yuan we are seeing him talk about women as tropes that he read about to prove to himself that he's straight (internalised homophobia) but also he is intensely jealous of the women around Binghe even if he doesn't realise that. I have a feeling his thoughts and feelings around women from his original world would be different

I should clarify that these points about are things about him that are true imo but are nuanced. He's a nuanced character. He's deeply traumatised and he also traumatised others because he had the power to do so

[littlenines]

this is a very late reply but i wanted to clarify that i don't think shen yuan being jealous of the women of PIDW excuses his misogyny. It wouldn't excuse it if sy were just a fully closeted gay man, but i do believe he's bisexual (unlike sj, who is gay but terrified of men) and genuinely sees women as sex objects on some level; the nadir of his thoughts on women is him being angry that one of the Qin twins died because now binghe can't experience the threesome scene with her and her sister, and knows about the things bingge does to women (like the three taoist nuns) and doesn't seem to care. I think this misogyny partly comes from believing he's in the porno world of PIDW but also partly from him, but without sj's traumatic backstory to excuse him seeing women a certain way (i also think sj seeing women as incapable of harm is, while misogynistic on some level, fundamentally far more innocent than seeing them as sex objects). We can't even give SY credit for SV!NYY turning out less infantilised because by his own admission, he barely interacts with non-LBH disciples especially after LBH's "death" (understandable, since he's in mourning). but he seems to care about nyy only insofar as the role she performs to luo binghe.

Binghe being a rapist is also confirmed by Airplane in the 100 Questions extra.

[ineffectualdemon]

I don't think Shen Yuan is bisexual. I think he probably more gay/asexual.

The way he talks about women in svsss universe is very detached and because he is seeing them as characters rather than people. But he is describing them as tropes in a very "yes this type of character is written this way to excite virile straight men. Which I definitely am. I also am not interested in this girl and find her annoying"

Again I don't think it's fair to call him a misogynist in the same way because we don't see how he interacts with women once he stops seeing everyone as characters. He has some misogynistic thoughts but he also thinks he's talking about character tropes and not people. To sum up in universe he can have misogynistic thoughts when he sees the people around him as characters from a harem novel only, this doesn't give us enough data on how he sees real women.

And with Shen Jiu thinking of women as incapable is not just incapable of harm. He sees women as pretty thoughtless and incapable. That's not better imo.

As for Bingge, I genuinely believe he has no concept of consent because he has been raped and his body has been used by others since he was a teenager. It doesn't excuse rape on his end but if we are giving nuance to Shen Jiu it's fair to do it to Bingge who probably honestly doesn't have a concept of sex that is mutually consensual because it's either done without his consent or without the other parties.

Doesn't make his actions okay! It's still bad! But there is trauma informing his actions

[littlenines]

Where is SJ stated to think of women as thoughtless and incapable? If anything, that's way closer to the way SY thinks about women, especially considering how scathing he is about NYY being dumb, SHL being a "loli", etc. We don't really get any of SJ's views on women besides a) he goes to the brothel to sleep, b) he allows people to think he's having sex there because he realises it would be seen as weak and shameful of him to use women for protection. To me, it's less that he even thinks women are weak and more that he knows other people do so, and therefore would see him as weak by association, which he is terrified of because the last time he was in a position of weakness he was abused in every possible way.

I don't also agree that Bingge was raped by Qin Wanyue, though I know it's a popular take. I think his consent was iffy in that situation, but I don't believe it was intended to be written as him suffering rape and more "she's desperate not to die without having felt ~the touch of a man~, it doesn't really matter to me, so I can do this for her."

It's not super relevant but I also want to add that on top of being misogynistic, SY is canonically transphobic, which he has no real excuse for being a modern-day man (any more than he has an excuse for the aforementioned misogyny). Similarly, there is a line that hints he has been having sexual thoughts about Qi Qingqi, but considers himself too upright and not sleazy enough to try to "sneak onto her peak" to act on them.

[ineffectualdemon]

True it's my interpretation mostly in how Ning Yingying is treated, I shouldn't treat that as fully canon but the way he coddles and represses Ning Yingying gives me that impression. I retract the full statement as a definite but he does treat Ning Yingying that she is not only incapable of harm but incapable of anything. Which is why when she is left to her own devices and not coddled and prevented from growth by Shen Jiu, she grows as a person.

And yes Shen Yuan is transphobic. He's also homophobic. But, and I did add this in a separate reblog, he doesn't treat women he perceives as real the same way as SVSSS women.

On the forums he is respectful to the women users and tells others to back off of them. He has a good relationship with his little sister, and in the post canon extras when he encounters women he isn't keeping the narrative trope dialogue about them and treats them the same as their peers.

There is a lot wrong with Shen Yuan but he is not more misogynistic than Shen Jiu and arguably at the end is less so. (Arguably)

Also PIDW Luo Binghe did not want to have sex with Qin Wanyue. It is explicitly stated that he was pushed down, gave a token resistance and then she pressured him by her "I want a happy memory before I die" bullshit making him feel like he couldn't say no to her.

If Person A pushes down Person B and then guilts them into sex when they show any reluctance and resistance...that is not consensual sex. That is rape.

Luo Binghe's body is panacea and it is implied that it is consistently used by other people for that reason

PIDW Binghe uses his blood to both heal and harm. He uses sex to both heal and harm. That would probably lead to an unhealthy concept of consent and boundaries and bodily autonomy

[littlenines]

I think we'll have to agree to disagree on SY being more or less misogynistic than SJ, bc I see SJ as being guilty of only this kind of awkward benevolent misogyny where he sees men as more capable of desire to harm due to what he went through, while SY strikes me as someone who learned some pretty bad things from the internet. Similarly, though, even if they were both equally misogynistic I think SY, who is not a denizen of PIDW but a modern, very privileged man, would have less "excuse" to be so.

I also haven't read the Qin Wanyue thing in a long while so I'll take your word for it, that being said I think LBH is intelligent enough to understand he is violating a woman's consent when he forcibly rapes and marries her (or uses her qi as a cauldron the way he treated the Taoist nuns in SVSSS), but doesn't care.

[ineffectualdemon]

We can agree to disagree but I think I just find Shen Jiu's misogyny more condescending and grating and than Shen Yuan's. Partly because while Shen Yuan has misogynistic thoughts he doesn't have misogynistic actions

He treats women better than he thinks about them

Shen Jiu might have less misogynistic thoughts but his actions are more misogynistic imo

I don't think one can be regarded as necessarily more or less misogynistic than the other but I will point out again Shen Yuan was actively respectful and defensive of the women on the forums before transmigration

Either way it's 12 of one half a dozen of the other

And I never argued that PIDW Binghe's experiences of rape and being used for his body excuses him doing the same to others

In fact I explicitly said many times it doesn't excuse it

But if you can agree that Shen Jiu has trauma fueling his hatred of men and his casual view of murder of random men, then its not hard to see that Binghe sees sex as a situation where one takes from another without regard to their consent or bodily autonomy as fine because of the trauma he went through being used for his body

Shen Jiu knows murder and abuse is wrong and these men and boys have done nothing to him. He doesn't care because of his history

Luo Binghe knows rape and having your body and qi used against your will for anothers benefit is wrong. He doesn't care because of his history

They are both villains

That's the point of PIDW

[littlenines]

I guess I just don't think SJ displays any particularly misogynistic actions unless you count going to the brothels to sleep and allowing people to think he's having sex there as misogynistic. We don't actually know that he coddled NYY particularly; the only insight we get into his treatment of her is in the extras when he allows her to hug him, pats her on the head, and agrees to take on another disciple because she wants a shidi or shimei. But by that logic, SY's actions are also not particularly misogynistic at all: however, his thoughts are. I remember him saying something in the defence of the women on the forums but iirc it was along the lines of "why bother arguing with them, fujos will be fujos" which is... not entirely respectful or defensive imo but at least he was telling someone to leave them alone, even if it was more along the lines of "you know what these silly women are like with their yaoi".

I agree that it's something he more or less grows out of, though, and SJ unfortunately never got the chance to unlearn any of his deeply toxic beliefs because, I guess, therapy doesn't exist in PIDW and you'd have to get him to believe he even needs it in the first place, which would mean showing vulnerability and weakness, which he's rightly terrified of.

I do agree with you that LBH and SJ are both villains though, and equally traumatised. My point was not that LBH being aware of what he was doing is wrong doesn't excuse him from doing it (we both know that) but that LBH does know it's wrong in the first place, because I believed you were arguing his views on consent are too blurry for him to be labelled a purposeful rapist. My bad.

[ineffectualdemon]

Someone in the notes pointed out we're probably using the wrong term and I agreed with them so I want to highlight that here but this will be my last reply because I have a paper to write and Fields of Mistria to play

Misogyny isn't the correct term for either of them.

The correct term is sexism

I don't think Shen Yuan is sexist in behaviour to women. The way Ning Yingying was coddled and prevented from growing is a form of sexism. Finding it more embarrassing to have it known that you seek women for comfort rather than seeking them for sex is sexism. And I am not going to call it benevelont sexism because it's not benevelont. The absence of malicious intent does not make it benevelont. It still sucks.

And no that's not how Shen Yuan reacted to the forum members. He just told people to chill and stop being weird at the girls. And more importantly for whatever sexism he had in his head he treated the women around him with respect

But yes. Sexism is the correct term for both of them, not misogyny

Also I'm pointing out again that Shen Jiu equally knew what he did was wrong and did it anyway

That's the point of the character

[littlenines]

last post here too but I distinctly remember reading SV and SY making a comment about how the forum members shouldn't disagree with the women who were finding yaoi to ship because that's just what they'll do, he didn't tell anyone not to be 'weird' at them? This could be a translation thing in that things were changed in translation but I remember SY's 'defense' of the forum women being in response to them shipping Qijiu or something, and it seemed less respectful and more like "what else do you expect from the forum sisters".

I will reiterate that a) as far as we know, NYY being coddled and prevented from growing wasn't actually SJ's fault since we see one interaction he had with her and while he was kind and somewhat indulgent, she seemed to have been doing her own thing until she ran up to him for a hug, and b) SJ's fear of people finding out he was going to the women for non-sexual comfort was not just about shame or embarrassment but about the fear of being seen as weak and opening himself up to abuse once more. It's similar to how he'd rather be shamed for something he Wasn't doing (sex with the brothel women) than something he was, because at least that's less personal, even if it still has a negative impact on his reputation.

"Benevolent sexism" is a term used to refer to a form of sexism that places women as higher than men, for example SJ's misguided belief that women don't have the intention to abuse or hurt others. It's "benevolent" because it places them on a pedestal, but it doesn't mean it's actually good. It's like the "noble savage" trope being an example of "benevolent racism"; it doesn't mean that it's in any way good or not harmful.

[ineffectualdemon]

Some canon Shen Jiu facts and implied information

- no he didn't try to kill Liu Qingge when they were disciples and Liu Qingge jumped to conclusions

- yes he did ambush Liu Qingge frequently and unprovoked and loudly threatened to kill him in public for the sin of having talent and a positive home life

- yes Liu Qingge barged in on him when he was in the brothel

- no it wasn't unprovoked. Shen Jiu had beat the everloving shit out of his Shidi

- Said Shidi had made nasty remarks to Shen Jiu at the door of the brothel. Probably bad ones but no not good enough to justify almost beating a man to death

- implied he went to the brothel only to sleep

- heavily implied by Shang Qinghua that Shen Jiu was a virgin when he died in SVSSS

- no he didn't kill Liu Qingge in the caves but even he's like "I kinda get the allegations tbh"

- Shen Jiu did murder people pretty casually when he was a rogue cultivator including innocent people who did not deserve it

- He also abused the shit out of Luo Binghe for the sin of having potential and having once been loved. He strung up a child and whipped him bloody. This cannot be excused and indeed he doesn't make excuses for it

- unconfirmed if he had done this to others

- probable but unconfirmed that he gave Luo Binghe the fake cultivation manual. He specifically hated that Luo Binghe had potential and wanted to ruin it. [EDIT: @bayesiandragon reminded me that Shen Jiu is confirmed in canon that he did give Luo Binghe a fake manual. So that is canon. I knew I was right but couldn't remember it stated so couldn't back it up so all thanks to Bayesiandragon for that]

- he probably didn't have sexual intentions towards Ning Yingying BUT there is a good chance he did something to make her feel uncomfortable and unsafe. She sided with Luo Binghe in the end and Shen Jiu is a curious type of man hating misogynist and he is also very possessive over what he thinks of as his. I think he was more along the lines of a possessive parent who infantilised Ning Yingying and made her ultimately uncomfortable and unhappy. That is a headcanon but it's reasonable to suggest that in some way Ning Yingying was not having a good time by the time Bing-ge showed back up from the Abyss. Evidence is that SVSSS is allowed to mature in a way that PIDW Ning Yingying was not

- not knowing why Yue Qingyuan didn't show up did hurt him deeply but wasn't what doomed him. His belief that he was an irredeemable monster from birth because he would have preferred Yue Qi die then for him to become Yue Qingyuan, was what doomed him

- he is pitiful little mess of a man but he's also an abusive fuckhead these are both true

- he does not want to change and isn't willing to

[littlenines]

i agree with a good amount of this but there's some context i think we're missing:

- i don't think we know exactly how casual he was about murdering people as a rogue cultivator, idr if it's really mentioned in his extra, but it IS important to note at that point he was a child who'd just had to kill his way out of an insanely abusive situation and was currently being groomed/owned by a master he was said to be terrified of

- i don't think we can really say that's "what doomed him", because shen jiu only had that thought After he realised yue qingyuan was alive. like... one is not possible without the other, and the only reason he thought that in the first place was due to the overwhelming hurt he must have been feeling at that moment. (also important to note that sj has a brief thought that's like "this hurts so bad i'd rather he died" which he clearly doesn't even Mean as evidenced by the fact that every time yqy is in the slightest bit of harm sj throws himself in to try to save him... having a Bad Thought because you're in so much pain and deciding you're ontologically evil really makes him The BPD Character of sv to me)

- somewhat uncomfortable with "misogynist" being applied here because while i do think shen jiu engages in a form of benevolent misogyny where he assumes women don't have the intent to harm like men do, there's no actual dislike or feeling that women are lesser. the text also states that shen jiu doesn't want people to see him as weak for hiding behind women but i always interpreted it as "because society thinks this and he knows that" rather than "because HE thinks women are weak". though ymmv. either way, i feel like sj is the most.. Understandable character with not completely perfect views on women, given the setting he lives in and his own history with male violence. i have much less understanding of why bingge turned his violence onto women (the mass rapes) when his main abuser, sj, was a man; or why shen yuan is Like That about women as a generally pretty kind and compassionate man from modern day china lol (like one minute he's critiquing how sqh wrote women, the next he's calling nyy a dumb loli and describing every woman's boobs)

[ineffectualdemon]

To respectively defend my takes (I don't mind your reply and I think it's interesting)

- he is pretty casual about murder imo because he doesn't really care about murdering other cultivators until it's potentially Yue QI. Like yeah the reason he doesn't put much value on it he lives of random men is the Trauma but that doesn't change the fact that he killed people pretty casually. He also tried to kill Binghe when he was an innocent child by giving him a manual that should have killed him. The point is you can give context and even say there is a level of justification without downplaying that the murdered people

- I said that it doomed him because that was the moment he decided he could not change and was inherently evil from birth. It's not that that was true but it when he decided that and it became his truth to live and die by

- I call him a misogynist because he is pretty infantialising of the women around him. Especially Ning Yingying. Not out of cruelty or hatred but it is another flavour of trauma response. Ning Yingying has to remain helpless and ignorant so she can't save Luo Binghe like Qiu Haitang was too helpless and ignorant to save him. I don't know about OG Binghe actually raping anyone. But the only description of a sex scene involving him we are given is his first time where he is coercively raped by Qin Wanyue. Which considering that is his first sexual encounter is a defining moment for him. A lot of his other sexual encounters after that are about him having to use his body to cure others no matter how he feels about it. So I don't think OG Binghe understands consent. With Shen Yuan we are seeing him talk about women as tropes that he read about to prove to himself that he's straight (internalised homophobia) but also he is intensely jealous of the women around Binghe even if he doesn't realise that. I have a feeling his thoughts and feelings around women from his original world would be different

I should clarify that these points about are things about him that are true imo but are nuanced. He's a nuanced character. He's deeply traumatised and he also traumatised others because he had the power to do so

[littlenines]

this is a very late reply but i wanted to clarify that i don't think shen yuan being jealous of the women of PIDW excuses his misogyny. It wouldn't excuse it if sy were just a fully closeted gay man, but i do believe he's bisexual (unlike sj, who is gay but terrified of men) and genuinely sees women as sex objects on some level; the nadir of his thoughts on women is him being angry that one of the Qin twins died because now binghe can't experience the threesome scene with her and her sister, and knows about the things bingge does to women (like the three taoist nuns) and doesn't seem to care. I think this misogyny partly comes from believing he's in the porno world of PIDW but also partly from him, but without sj's traumatic backstory to excuse him seeing women a certain way (i also think sj seeing women as incapable of harm is, while misogynistic on some level, fundamentally far more innocent than seeing them as sex objects). We can't even give SY credit for SV!NYY turning out less infantilised because by his own admission, he barely interacts with non-LBH disciples especially after LBH's "death" (understandable, since he's in mourning). but he seems to care about nyy only insofar as the role she performs to luo binghe.

Binghe being a rapist is also confirmed by Airplane in the 100 Questions extra.

[ineffectualdemon]

I don't think Shen Yuan is bisexual. I think he probably more gay/asexual.

The way he talks about women in svsss universe is very detached and because he is seeing them as characters rather than people. But he is describing them as tropes in a very "yes this type of character is written this way to excite virile straight men. Which I definitely am. I also am not interested in this girl and find her annoying"

Again I don't think it's fair to call him a misogynist in the same way because we don't see how he interacts with women once he stops seeing everyone as characters. He has some misogynistic thoughts but he also thinks he's talking about character tropes and not people. To sum up in universe he can have misogynistic thoughts when he sees the people around him as characters from a harem novel only, this doesn't give us enough data on how he sees real women.

And with Shen Jiu thinking of women as incapable is not just incapable of harm. He sees women as pretty thoughtless and incapable. That's not better imo.

As for Bingge, I genuinely believe he has no concept of consent because he has been raped and his body has been used by others since he was a teenager. It doesn't excuse rape on his end but if we are giving nuance to Shen Jiu it's fair to do it to Bingge who probably honestly doesn't have a concept of sex that is mutually consensual because it's either done without his consent or without the other parties.

Doesn't make his actions okay! It's still bad! But there is trauma informing his actions

[littlenines]

Where is SJ stated to think of women as thoughtless and incapable? If anything, that's way closer to the way SY thinks about women, especially considering how scathing he is about NYY being dumb, SHL being a "loli", etc. We don't really get any of SJ's views on women besides a) he goes to the brothel to sleep, b) he allows people to think he's having sex there because he realises it would be seen as weak and shameful of him to use women for protection. To me, it's less that he even thinks women are weak and more that he knows other people do so, and therefore would see him as weak by association, which he is terrified of because the last time he was in a position of weakness he was abused in every possible way.

I don't also agree that Bingge was raped by Qin Wanyue, though I know it's a popular take. I think his consent was iffy in that situation, but I don't believe it was intended to be written as him suffering rape and more "she's desperate not to die without having felt ~the touch of a man~, it doesn't really matter to me, so I can do this for her."

It's not super relevant but I also want to add that on top of being misogynistic, SY is canonically transphobic, which he has no real excuse for being a modern-day man (any more than he has an excuse for the aforementioned misogyny). Similarly, there is a line that hints he has been having sexual thoughts about Qi Qingqi, but considers himself too upright and not sleazy enough to try to "sneak onto her peak" to act on them.

[ineffectualdemon]

True it's my interpretation mostly in how Ning Yingying is treated, I shouldn't treat that as fully canon but the way he coddles and represses Ning Yingying gives me that impression. I retract the full statement as a definite but he does treat Ning Yingying that she is not only incapable of harm but incapable of anything. Which is why when she is left to her own devices and not coddled and prevented from growth by Shen Jiu, she grows as a person.

And yes Shen Yuan is transphobic. He's also homophobic. But, and I did add this in a separate reblog, he doesn't treat women he perceives as real the same way as SVSSS women.

On the forums he is respectful to the women users and tells others to back off of them. He has a good relationship with his little sister, and in the post canon extras when he encounters women he isn't keeping the narrative trope dialogue about them and treats them the same as their peers.

There is a lot wrong with Shen Yuan but he is not more misogynistic than Shen Jiu and arguably at the end is less so. (Arguably)

Also PIDW Luo Binghe did not want to have sex with Qin Wanyue. It is explicitly stated that he was pushed down, gave a token resistance and then she pressured him by her "I want a happy memory before I die" bullshit making him feel like he couldn't say no to her.

If Person A pushes down Person B and then guilts them into sex when they show any reluctance and resistance...that is not consensual sex. That is rape.

Luo Binghe's body is panacea and it is implied that it is consistently used by other people for that reason

PIDW Binghe uses his blood to both heal and harm. He uses sex to both heal and harm. That would probably lead to an unhealthy concept of consent and boundaries and bodily autonomy

[littlenines]

I think we'll have to agree to disagree on SY being more or less misogynistic than SJ, bc I see SJ as being guilty of only this kind of awkward benevolent misogyny where he sees men as more capable of desire to harm due to what he went through, while SY strikes me as someone who learned some pretty bad things from the internet. Similarly, though, even if they were both equally misogynistic I think SY, who is not a denizen of PIDW but a modern, very privileged man, would have less "excuse" to be so.

I also haven't read the Qin Wanyue thing in a long while so I'll take your word for it, that being said I think LBH is intelligent enough to understand he is violating a woman's consent when he forcibly rapes and marries her (or uses her qi as a cauldron the way he treated the Taoist nuns in SVSSS), but doesn't care.

[ineffectualdemon]

We can agree to disagree but I think I just find Shen Jiu's misogyny more condescending and grating and than Shen Yuan's. Partly because while Shen Yuan has misogynistic thoughts he doesn't have misogynistic actions

He treats women better than he thinks about them

Shen Jiu might have less misogynistic thoughts but his actions are more misogynistic imo

I don't think one can be regarded as necessarily more or less misogynistic than the other but I will point out again Shen Yuan was actively respectful and defensive of the women on the forums before transmigration

Either way it's 12 of one half a dozen of the other

And I never argued that PIDW Binghe's experiences of rape and being used for his body excuses him doing the same to others

In fact I explicitly said many times it doesn't excuse it

But if you can agree that Shen Jiu has trauma fueling his hatred of men and his casual view of murder of random men, then its not hard to see that Binghe sees sex as a situation where one takes from another without regard to their consent or bodily autonomy as fine because of the trauma he went through being used for his body

Shen Jiu knows murder and abuse is wrong and these men and boys have done nothing to him. He doesn't care because of his history

Luo Binghe knows rape and having your body and qi used against your will for anothers benefit is wrong. He doesn't care because of his history

They are both villains

That's the point of PIDW

[littlenines]

I guess I just don't think SJ displays any particularly misogynistic actions unless you count going to the brothels to sleep and allowing people to think he's having sex there as misogynistic. We don't actually know that he coddled NYY particularly; the only insight we get into his treatment of her is in the extras when he allows her to hug him, pats her on the head, and agrees to take on another disciple because she wants a shidi or shimei. But by that logic, SY's actions are also not particularly misogynistic at all: however, his thoughts are. I remember him saying something in the defence of the women on the forums but iirc it was along the lines of "why bother arguing with them, fujos will be fujos" which is... not entirely respectful or defensive imo but at least he was telling someone to leave them alone, even if it was more along the lines of "you know what these silly women are like with their yaoi".

I agree that it's something he more or less grows out of, though, and SJ unfortunately never got the chance to unlearn any of his deeply toxic beliefs because, I guess, therapy doesn't exist in PIDW and you'd have to get him to believe he even needs it in the first place, which would mean showing vulnerability and weakness, which he's rightly terrified of.

I do agree with you that LBH and SJ are both villains though, and equally traumatised. My point was not that LBH being aware of what he was doing is wrong doesn't excuse him from doing it (we both know that) but that LBH does know it's wrong in the first place, because I believed you were arguing his views on consent are too blurry for him to be labelled a purposeful rapist. My bad.

[littlenines]

shen jiu: self-hating trans woman who hates her attraction to men

shen yuan: bisexual TERM (Trans Exclusionary Regular Misogynist)

[littlenines]

luo binghe: gay misogynist

yue qingyuan: yue qingyuan

[ineffectualdemon]

Some canon Shen Jiu facts and implied information

- no he didn't try to kill Liu Qingge when they were disciples and Liu Qingge jumped to conclusions

- yes he did ambush Liu Qingge frequently and unprovoked and loudly threatened to kill him in public for the sin of having talent and a positive home life

- yes Liu Qingge barged in on him when he was in the brothel

- no it wasn't unprovoked. Shen Jiu had beat the everloving shit out of his Shidi

- Said Shidi had made nasty remarks to Shen Jiu at the door of the brothel. Probably bad ones but no not good enough to justify almost beating a man to death

- implied he went to the brothel only to sleep

- heavily implied by Shang Qinghua that Shen Jiu was a virgin when he died in SVSSS

- no he didn't kill Liu Qingge in the caves but even he's like "I kinda get the allegations tbh"

- Shen Jiu did murder people pretty casually when he was a rogue cultivator including innocent people who did not deserve it

- He also abused the shit out of Luo Binghe for the sin of having potential and having once been loved. He strung up a child and whipped him bloody. This cannot be excused and indeed he doesn't make excuses for it

- unconfirmed if he had done this to others

- probable but unconfirmed that he gave Luo Binghe the fake cultivation manual. He specifically hated that Luo Binghe had potential and wanted to ruin it. [EDIT: @bayesiandragon reminded me that Shen Jiu is confirmed in canon that he did give Luo Binghe a fake manual. So that is canon. I knew I was right but couldn't remember it stated so couldn't back it up so all thanks to Bayesiandragon for that]

- he probably didn't have sexual intentions towards Ning Yingying BUT there is a good chance he did something to make her feel uncomfortable and unsafe. She sided with Luo Binghe in the end and Shen Jiu is a curious type of man hating misogynist and he is also very possessive over what he thinks of as his. I think he was more along the lines of a possessive parent who infantilised Ning Yingying and made her ultimately uncomfortable and unhappy. That is a headcanon but it's reasonable to suggest that in some way Ning Yingying was not having a good time by the time Bing-ge showed back up from the Abyss. Evidence is that SVSSS is allowed to mature in a way that PIDW Ning Yingying was not

- not knowing why Yue Qingyuan didn't show up did hurt him deeply but wasn't what doomed him. His belief that he was an irredeemable monster from birth because he would have preferred Yue Qi die then for him to become Yue Qingyuan, was what doomed him

- he is pitiful little mess of a man but he's also an abusive fuckhead these are both true

- he does not want to change and isn't willing to

[littlenines]

i agree with a good amount of this but there's some context i think we're missing:

- i don't think we know exactly how casual he was about murdering people as a rogue cultivator, idr if it's really mentioned in his extra, but it IS important to note at that point he was a child who'd just had to kill his way out of an insanely abusive situation and was currently being groomed/owned by a master he was said to be terrified of

- i don't think we can really say that's "what doomed him", because shen jiu only had that thought After he realised yue qingyuan was alive. like... one is not possible without the other, and the only reason he thought that in the first place was due to the overwhelming hurt he must have been feeling at that moment. (also important to note that sj has a brief thought that's like "this hurts so bad i'd rather he died" which he clearly doesn't even Mean as evidenced by the fact that every time yqy is in the slightest bit of harm sj throws himself in to try to save him... having a Bad Thought because you're in so much pain and deciding you're ontologically evil really makes him The BPD Character of sv to me)

- somewhat uncomfortable with "misogynist" being applied here because while i do think shen jiu engages in a form of benevolent misogyny where he assumes women don't have the intent to harm like men do, there's no actual dislike or feeling that women are lesser. the text also states that shen jiu doesn't want people to see him as weak for hiding behind women but i always interpreted it as "because society thinks this and he knows that" rather than "because HE thinks women are weak". though ymmv. either way, i feel like sj is the most.. Understandable character with not completely perfect views on women, given the setting he lives in and his own history with male violence. i have much less understanding of why bingge turned his violence onto women (the mass rapes) when his main abuser, sj, was a man; or why shen yuan is Like That about women as a generally pretty kind and compassionate man from modern day china lol (like one minute he's critiquing how sqh wrote women, the next he's calling nyy a dumb loli and describing every woman's boobs)

[ineffectualdemon]

To respectively defend my takes (I don't mind your reply and I think it's interesting)

- he is pretty casual about murder imo because he doesn't really care about murdering other cultivators until it's potentially Yue QI. Like yeah the reason he doesn't put much value on it he lives of random men is the Trauma but that doesn't change the fact that he killed people pretty casually. He also tried to kill Binghe when he was an innocent child by giving him a manual that should have killed him. The point is you can give context and even say there is a level of justification without downplaying that the murdered people

- I said that it doomed him because that was the moment he decided he could not change and was inherently evil from birth. It's not that that was true but it when he decided that and it became his truth to live and die by

- I call him a misogynist because he is pretty infantialising of the women around him. Especially Ning Yingying. Not out of cruelty or hatred but it is another flavour of trauma response. Ning Yingying has to remain helpless and ignorant so she can't save Luo Binghe like Qiu Haitang was too helpless and ignorant to save him. I don't know about OG Binghe actually raping anyone. But the only description of a sex scene involving him we are given is his first time where he is coercively raped by Qin Wanyue. Which considering that is his first sexual encounter is a defining moment for him. A lot of his other sexual encounters after that are about him having to use his body to cure others no matter how he feels about it. So I don't think OG Binghe understands consent. With Shen Yuan we are seeing him talk about women as tropes that he read about to prove to himself that he's straight (internalised homophobia) but also he is intensely jealous of the women around Binghe even if he doesn't realise that. I have a feeling his thoughts and feelings around women from his original world would be different

I should clarify that these points about are things about him that are true imo but are nuanced. He's a nuanced character. He's deeply traumatised and he also traumatised others because he had the power to do so

[littlenines]

this is a very late reply but i wanted to clarify that i don't think shen yuan being jealous of the women of PIDW excuses his misogyny. It wouldn't excuse it if sy were just a fully closeted gay man, but i do believe he's bisexual (unlike sj, who is gay but terrified of men) and genuinely sees women as sex objects on some level; the nadir of his thoughts on women is him being angry that one of the Qin twins died because now binghe can't experience the threesome scene with her and her sister, and knows about the things bingge does to women (like the three taoist nuns) and doesn't seem to care. I think this misogyny partly comes from believing he's in the porno world of PIDW but also partly from him, but without sj's traumatic backstory to excuse him seeing women a certain way (i also think sj seeing women as incapable of harm is, while misogynistic on some level, fundamentally far more innocent than seeing them as sex objects). We can't even give SY credit for SV!NYY turning out less infantilised because by his own admission, he barely interacts with non-LBH disciples especially after LBH's "death" (understandable, since he's in mourning). but he seems to care about nyy only insofar as the role she performs to luo binghe.

Binghe being a rapist is also confirmed by Airplane in the 100 Questions extra.

[ineffectualdemon]

I don't think Shen Yuan is bisexual. I think he probably more gay/asexual.

The way he talks about women in svsss universe is very detached and because he is seeing them as characters rather than people. But he is describing them as tropes in a very "yes this type of character is written this way to excite virile straight men. Which I definitely am. I also am not interested in this girl and find her annoying"

Again I don't think it's fair to call him a misogynist in the same way because we don't see how he interacts with women once he stops seeing everyone as characters. He has some misogynistic thoughts but he also thinks he's talking about character tropes and not people. To sum up in universe he can have misogynistic thoughts when he sees the people around him as characters from a harem novel only, this doesn't give us enough data on how he sees real women.

And with Shen Jiu thinking of women as incapable is not just incapable of harm. He sees women as pretty thoughtless and incapable. That's not better imo.

As for Bingge, I genuinely believe he has no concept of consent because he has been raped and his body has been used by others since he was a teenager. It doesn't excuse rape on his end but if we are giving nuance to Shen Jiu it's fair to do it to Bingge who probably honestly doesn't have a concept of sex that is mutually consensual because it's either done without his consent or without the other parties.

Doesn't make his actions okay! It's still bad! But there is trauma informing his actions

[littlenines]

Where is SJ stated to think of women as thoughtless and incapable? If anything, that's way closer to the way SY thinks about women, especially considering how scathing he is about NYY being dumb, SHL being a "loli", etc. We don't really get any of SJ's views on women besides a) he goes to the brothel to sleep, b) he allows people to think he's having sex there because he realises it would be seen as weak and shameful of him to use women for protection. To me, it's less that he even thinks women are weak and more that he knows other people do so, and therefore would see him as weak by association, which he is terrified of because the last time he was in a position of weakness he was abused in every possible way.

I don't also agree that Bingge was raped by Qin Wanyue, though I know it's a popular take. I think his consent was iffy in that situation, but I don't believe it was intended to be written as him suffering rape and more "she's desperate not to die without having felt ~the touch of a man~, it doesn't really matter to me, so I can do this for her."

It's not super relevant but I also want to add that on top of being misogynistic, SY is canonically transphobic, which he has no real excuse for being a modern-day man (any more than he has an excuse for the aforementioned misogyny). Similarly, there is a line that hints he has been having sexual thoughts about Qi Qingqi, but considers himself too upright and not sleazy enough to try to "sneak onto her peak" to act on them.

[ineffectualdemon]

True it's my interpretation mostly in how Ning Yingying is treated, I shouldn't treat that as fully canon but the way he coddles and represses Ning Yingying gives me that impression. I retract the full statement as a definite but he does treat Ning Yingying that she is not only incapable of harm but incapable of anything. Which is why when she is left to her own devices and not coddled and prevented from growth by Shen Jiu, she grows as a person.

And yes Shen Yuan is transphobic. He's also homophobic. But, and I did add this in a separate reblog, he doesn't treat women he perceives as real the same way as SVSSS women.

On the forums he is respectful to the women users and tells others to back off of them. He has a good relationship with his little sister, and in the post canon extras when he encounters women he isn't keeping the narrative trope dialogue about them and treats them the same as their peers.

There is a lot wrong with Shen Yuan but he is not more misogynistic than Shen Jiu and arguably at the end is less so. (Arguably)

Also PIDW Luo Binghe did not want to have sex with Qin Wanyue. It is explicitly stated that he was pushed down, gave a token resistance and then she pressured him by her "I want a happy memory before I die" bullshit making him feel like he couldn't say no to her.

If Person A pushes down Person B and then guilts them into sex when they show any reluctance and resistance...that is not consensual sex. That is rape.

Luo Binghe's body is panacea and it is implied that it is consistently used by other people for that reason

PIDW Binghe uses his blood to both heal and harm. He uses sex to both heal and harm. That would probably lead to an unhealthy concept of consent and boundaries and bodily autonomy

[littlenines]

I think we'll have to agree to disagree on SY being more or less misogynistic than SJ, bc I see SJ as being guilty of only this kind of awkward benevolent misogyny where he sees men as more capable of desire to harm due to what he went through, while SY strikes me as someone who learned some pretty bad things from the internet. Similarly, though, even if they were both equally misogynistic I think SY, who is not a denizen of PIDW but a modern, very privileged man, would have less "excuse" to be so.

I also haven't read the Qin Wanyue thing in a long while so I'll take your word for it, that being said I think LBH is intelligent enough to understand he is violating a woman's consent when he forcibly rapes and marries her (or uses her qi as a cauldron the way he treated the Taoist nuns in SVSSS), but doesn't care.

[ineffectualdemon]

Some canon Shen Jiu facts and implied information

- no he didn't try to kill Liu Qingge when they were disciples and Liu Qingge jumped to conclusions

- yes he did ambush Liu Qingge frequently and unprovoked and loudly threatened to kill him in public for the sin of having talent and a positive home life

- yes Liu Qingge barged in on him when he was in the brothel

- no it wasn't unprovoked. Shen Jiu had beat the everloving shit out of his Shidi

- Said Shidi had made nasty remarks to Shen Jiu at the door of the brothel. Probably bad ones but no not good enough to justify almost beating a man to death

- implied he went to the brothel only to sleep

- heavily implied by Shang Qinghua that Shen Jiu was a virgin when he died in SVSSS

- no he didn't kill Liu Qingge in the caves but even he's like "I kinda get the allegations tbh"

- Shen Jiu did murder people pretty casually when he was a rogue cultivator including innocent people who did not deserve it

- He also abused the shit out of Luo Binghe for the sin of having potential and having once been loved. He strung up a child and whipped him bloody. This cannot be excused and indeed he doesn't make excuses for it

- unconfirmed if he had done this to others

- probable but unconfirmed that he gave Luo Binghe the fake cultivation manual. He specifically hated that Luo Binghe had potential and wanted to ruin it. [EDIT: @bayesiandragon reminded me that Shen Jiu is confirmed in canon that he did give Luo Binghe a fake manual. So that is canon. I knew I was right but couldn't remember it stated so couldn't back it up so all thanks to Bayesiandragon for that]

- he probably didn't have sexual intentions towards Ning Yingying BUT there is a good chance he did something to make her feel uncomfortable and unsafe. She sided with Luo Binghe in the end and Shen Jiu is a curious type of man hating misogynist and he is also very possessive over what he thinks of as his. I think he was more along the lines of a possessive parent who infantilised Ning Yingying and made her ultimately uncomfortable and unhappy. That is a headcanon but it's reasonable to suggest that in some way Ning Yingying was not having a good time by the time Bing-ge showed back up from the Abyss. Evidence is that SVSSS is allowed to mature in a way that PIDW Ning Yingying was not

- not knowing why Yue Qingyuan didn't show up did hurt him deeply but wasn't what doomed him. His belief that he was an irredeemable monster from birth because he would have preferred Yue Qi die then for him to become Yue Qingyuan, was what doomed him

- he is pitiful little mess of a man but he's also an abusive fuckhead these are both true

- he does not want to change and isn't willing to

[littlenines]

i agree with a good amount of this but there's some context i think we're missing:

- i don't think we know exactly how casual he was about murdering people as a rogue cultivator, idr if it's really mentioned in his extra, but it IS important to note at that point he was a child who'd just had to kill his way out of an insanely abusive situation and was currently being groomed/owned by a master he was said to be terrified of

- i don't think we can really say that's "what doomed him", because shen jiu only had that thought After he realised yue qingyuan was alive. like... one is not possible without the other, and the only reason he thought that in the first place was due to the overwhelming hurt he must have been feeling at that moment. (also important to note that sj has a brief thought that's like "this hurts so bad i'd rather he died" which he clearly doesn't even Mean as evidenced by the fact that every time yqy is in the slightest bit of harm sj throws himself in to try to save him... having a Bad Thought because you're in so much pain and deciding you're ontologically evil really makes him The BPD Character of sv to me)

- somewhat uncomfortable with "misogynist" being applied here because while i do think shen jiu engages in a form of benevolent misogyny where he assumes women don't have the intent to harm like men do, there's no actual dislike or feeling that women are lesser. the text also states that shen jiu doesn't want people to see him as weak for hiding behind women but i always interpreted it as "because society thinks this and he knows that" rather than "because HE thinks women are weak". though ymmv. either way, i feel like sj is the most.. Understandable character with not completely perfect views on women, given the setting he lives in and his own history with male violence. i have much less understanding of why bingge turned his violence onto women (the mass rapes) when his main abuser, sj, was a man; or why shen yuan is Like That about women as a generally pretty kind and compassionate man from modern day china lol (like one minute he's critiquing how sqh wrote women, the next he's calling nyy a dumb loli and describing every woman's boobs)

[ineffectualdemon]

To respectively defend my takes (I don't mind your reply and I think it's interesting)

- he is pretty casual about murder imo because he doesn't really care about murdering other cultivators until it's potentially Yue QI. Like yeah the reason he doesn't put much value on it he lives of random men is the Trauma but that doesn't change the fact that he killed people pretty casually. He also tried to kill Binghe when he was an innocent child by giving him a manual that should have killed him. The point is you can give context and even say there is a level of justification without downplaying that the murdered people

- I said that it doomed him because that was the moment he decided he could not change and was inherently evil from birth. It's not that that was true but it when he decided that and it became his truth to live and die by

- I call him a misogynist because he is pretty infantialising of the women around him. Especially Ning Yingying. Not out of cruelty or hatred but it is another flavour of trauma response. Ning Yingying has to remain helpless and ignorant so she can't save Luo Binghe like Qiu Haitang was too helpless and ignorant to save him. I don't know about OG Binghe actually raping anyone. But the only description of a sex scene involving him we are given is his first time where he is coercively raped by Qin Wanyue. Which considering that is his first sexual encounter is a defining moment for him. A lot of his other sexual encounters after that are about him having to use his body to cure others no matter how he feels about it. So I don't think OG Binghe understands consent. With Shen Yuan we are seeing him talk about women as tropes that he read about to prove to himself that he's straight (internalised homophobia) but also he is intensely jealous of the women around Binghe even if he doesn't realise that. I have a feeling his thoughts and feelings around women from his original world would be different

I should clarify that these points about are things about him that are true imo but are nuanced. He's a nuanced character. He's deeply traumatised and he also traumatised others because he had the power to do so

[littlenines]

this is a very late reply but i wanted to clarify that i don't think shen yuan being jealous of the women of PIDW excuses his misogyny. It wouldn't excuse it if sy were just a fully closeted gay man, but i do believe he's bisexual (unlike sj, who is gay but terrified of men) and genuinely sees women as sex objects on some level; the nadir of his thoughts on women is him being angry that one of the Qin twins died because now binghe can't experience the threesome scene with her and her sister, and knows about the things bingge does to women (like the three taoist nuns) and doesn't seem to care. I think this misogyny partly comes from believing he's in the porno world of PIDW but also partly from him, but without sj's traumatic backstory to excuse him seeing women a certain way (i also think sj seeing women as incapable of harm is, while misogynistic on some level, fundamentally far more innocent than seeing them as sex objects). We can't even give SY credit for SV!NYY turning out less infantilised because by his own admission, he barely interacts with non-LBH disciples especially after LBH's "death" (understandable, since he's in mourning). but he seems to care about nyy only insofar as the role she performs to luo binghe.

Binghe being a rapist is also confirmed by Airplane in the 100 Questions extra.

[ineffectualdemon]

I don't think Shen Yuan is bisexual. I think he probably more gay/asexual.

The way he talks about women in svsss universe is very detached and because he is seeing them as characters rather than people. But he is describing them as tropes in a very "yes this type of character is written this way to excite virile straight men. Which I definitely am. I also am not interested in this girl and find her annoying"

Again I don't think it's fair to call him a misogynist in the same way because we don't see how he interacts with women once he stops seeing everyone as characters. He has some misogynistic thoughts but he also thinks he's talking about character tropes and not people. To sum up in universe he can have misogynistic thoughts when he sees the people around him as characters from a harem novel only, this doesn't give us enough data on how he sees real women.

And with Shen Jiu thinking of women as incapable is not just incapable of harm. He sees women as pretty thoughtless and incapable. That's not better imo.

As for Bingge, I genuinely believe he has no concept of consent because he has been raped and his body has been used by others since he was a teenager. It doesn't excuse rape on his end but if we are giving nuance to Shen Jiu it's fair to do it to Bingge who probably honestly doesn't have a concept of sex that is mutually consensual because it's either done without his consent or without the other parties.

Doesn't make his actions okay! It's still bad! But there is trauma informing his actions

[littlenines]

Where is SJ stated to think of women as thoughtless and incapable? If anything, that's way closer to the way SY thinks about women, especially considering how scathing he is about NYY being dumb, SHL being a "loli", etc. We don't really get any of SJ's views on women besides a) he goes to the brothel to sleep, b) he allows people to think he's having sex there because he realises it would be seen as weak and shameful of him to use women for protection. To me, it's less that he even thinks women are weak and more that he knows other people do so, and therefore would see him as weak by association, which he is terrified of because the last time he was in a position of weakness he was abused in every possible way.

I don't also agree that Bingge was raped by Qin Wanyue, though I know it's a popular take. I think his consent was iffy in that situation, but I don't believe it was intended to be written as him suffering rape and more "she's desperate not to die without having felt ~the touch of a man~, it doesn't really matter to me, so I can do this for her."

It's not super relevant but I also want to add that on top of being misogynistic, SY is canonically transphobic, which he has no real excuse for being a modern-day man (any more than he has an excuse for the aforementioned misogyny). Similarly, there is a line that hints he has been having sexual thoughts about Qi Qingqi, but considers himself too upright and not sleazy enough to try to "sneak onto her peak" to act on them.

[ineffectualdemon]

Some canon Shen Jiu facts and implied information

- no he didn't try to kill Liu Qingge when they were disciples and Liu Qingge jumped to conclusions

- yes he did ambush Liu Qingge frequently and unprovoked and loudly threatened to kill him in public for the sin of having talent and a positive home life

- yes Liu Qingge barged in on him when he was in the brothel

- no it wasn't unprovoked. Shen Jiu had beat the everloving shit out of his Shidi

- Said Shidi had made nasty remarks to Shen Jiu at the door of the brothel. Probably bad ones but no not good enough to justify almost beating a man to death

- implied he went to the brothel only to sleep

- heavily implied by Shang Qinghua that Shen Jiu was a virgin when he died in SVSSS

- no he didn't kill Liu Qingge in the caves but even he's like "I kinda get the allegations tbh"

- Shen Jiu did murder people pretty casually when he was a rogue cultivator including innocent people who did not deserve it

- He also abused the shit out of Luo Binghe for the sin of having potential and having once been loved. He strung up a child and whipped him bloody. This cannot be excused and indeed he doesn't make excuses for it

- unconfirmed if he had done this to others

- probable but unconfirmed that he gave Luo Binghe the fake cultivation manual. He specifically hated that Luo Binghe had potential and wanted to ruin it. [EDIT: @bayesiandragon reminded me that Shen Jiu is confirmed in canon that he did give Luo Binghe a fake manual. So that is canon. I knew I was right but couldn't remember it stated so couldn't back it up so all thanks to Bayesiandragon for that]

- he probably didn't have sexual intentions towards Ning Yingying BUT there is a good chance he did something to make her feel uncomfortable and unsafe. She sided with Luo Binghe in the end and Shen Jiu is a curious type of man hating misogynist and he is also very possessive over what he thinks of as his. I think he was more along the lines of a possessive parent who infantilised Ning Yingying and made her ultimately uncomfortable and unhappy. That is a headcanon but it's reasonable to suggest that in some way Ning Yingying was not having a good time by the time Bing-ge showed back up from the Abyss. Evidence is that SVSSS is allowed to mature in a way that PIDW Ning Yingying was not

- not knowing why Yue Qingyuan didn't show up did hurt him deeply but wasn't what doomed him. His belief that he was an irredeemable monster from birth because he would have preferred Yue Qi die then for him to become Yue Qingyuan, was what doomed him

- he is pitiful little mess of a man but he's also an abusive fuckhead these are both true

- he does not want to change and isn't willing to

[littlenines]

i agree with a good amount of this but there's some context i think we're missing:

- i don't think we know exactly how casual he was about murdering people as a rogue cultivator, idr if it's really mentioned in his extra, but it IS important to note at that point he was a child who'd just had to kill his way out of an insanely abusive situation and was currently being groomed/owned by a master he was said to be terrified of

- i don't think we can really say that's "what doomed him", because shen jiu only had that thought After he realised yue qingyuan was alive. like... one is not possible without the other, and the only reason he thought that in the first place was due to the overwhelming hurt he must have been feeling at that moment. (also important to note that sj has a brief thought that's like "this hurts so bad i'd rather he died" which he clearly doesn't even Mean as evidenced by the fact that every time yqy is in the slightest bit of harm sj throws himself in to try to save him... having a Bad Thought because you're in so much pain and deciding you're ontologically evil really makes him The BPD Character of sv to me)

- somewhat uncomfortable with "misogynist" being applied here because while i do think shen jiu engages in a form of benevolent misogyny where he assumes women don't have the intent to harm like men do, there's no actual dislike or feeling that women are lesser. the text also states that shen jiu doesn't want people to see him as weak for hiding behind women but i always interpreted it as "because society thinks this and he knows that" rather than "because HE thinks women are weak". though ymmv. either way, i feel like sj is the most.. Understandable character with not completely perfect views on women, given the setting he lives in and his own history with male violence. i have much less understanding of why bingge turned his violence onto women (the mass rapes) when his main abuser, sj, was a man; or why shen yuan is Like That about women as a generally pretty kind and compassionate man from modern day china lol (like one minute he's critiquing how sqh wrote women, the next he's calling nyy a dumb loli and describing every woman's boobs)

[ineffectualdemon]

To respectively defend my takes (I don't mind your reply and I think it's interesting)

- he is pretty casual about murder imo because he doesn't really care about murdering other cultivators until it's potentially Yue QI. Like yeah the reason he doesn't put much value on it he lives of random men is the Trauma but that doesn't change the fact that he killed people pretty casually. He also tried to kill Binghe when he was an innocent child by giving him a manual that should have killed him. The point is you can give context and even say there is a level of justification without downplaying that the murdered people

- I said that it doomed him because that was the moment he decided he could not change and was inherently evil from birth. It's not that that was true but it when he decided that and it became his truth to live and die by

- I call him a misogynist because he is pretty infantialising of the women around him. Especially Ning Yingying. Not out of cruelty or hatred but it is another flavour of trauma response. Ning Yingying has to remain helpless and ignorant so she can't save Luo Binghe like Qiu Haitang was too helpless and ignorant to save him. I don't know about OG Binghe actually raping anyone. But the only description of a sex scene involving him we are given is his first time where he is coercively raped by Qin Wanyue. Which considering that is his first sexual encounter is a defining moment for him. A lot of his other sexual encounters after that are about him having to use his body to cure others no matter how he feels about it. So I don't think OG Binghe understands consent. With Shen Yuan we are seeing him talk about women as tropes that he read about to prove to himself that he's straight (internalised homophobia) but also he is intensely jealous of the women around Binghe even if he doesn't realise that. I have a feeling his thoughts and feelings around women from his original world would be different

I should clarify that these points about are things about him that are true imo but are nuanced. He's a nuanced character. He's deeply traumatised and he also traumatised others because he had the power to do so

[littlenines]

this is a very late reply but i wanted to clarify that i don't think shen yuan being jealous of the women of PIDW excuses his misogyny. It wouldn't excuse it if sy were just a fully closeted gay man, but i do believe he's bisexual (unlike sj, who is gay but terrified of men) and genuinely sees women as sex objects on some level; the nadir of his thoughts on women is him being angry that one of the Qin twins died because now binghe can't experience the threesome scene with her and her sister, and knows about the things bingge does to women (like the three taoist nuns) and doesn't seem to care. I think this misogyny partly comes from believing he's in the porno world of PIDW but also partly from him, but without sj's traumatic backstory to excuse him seeing women a certain way (i also think sj seeing women as incapable of harm is, while misogynistic on some level, fundamentally far more innocent than seeing them as sex objects). We can't even give SY credit for SV!NYY turning out less infantilised because by his own admission, he barely interacts with non-LBH disciples especially after LBH's "death" (understandable, since he's in mourning). but he seems to care about nyy only insofar as the role she performs to luo binghe.

Binghe being a rapist is also confirmed by Airplane in the 100 Questions extra.