ASOIAF Characters as The Adventures of the Bailey School Kids Books
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@mryoyo000
ASOIAF Characters as The Adventures of the Bailey School Kids Books
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Hello again and I hope youâre having a great week! Thanks again for all your answers. This is again a weirdly very specific question but I was wondering if you had any thoughts: since itâs not unusual for nobles in Westeros to be described as their sigils, do you think the Gracefords or Pipers would have any issues to the extent that their sigils seem to be gods of the Seven? (I apologize I may be mistaken, I assumed the Piper sigil is supposed to be specifically the Maiden of the Seven but Iâm not sure if that was specified) I was thinking on the one hand thereâs the possible issue that unlike calling yourself a direwolf, lion etc. it might be different if your sigil is a deity. (This is my own guessing as well but I also wonder if thereâs a gendered component to it, in the sense that, due to Westerosi misogyny, a lord might not object to being described as a masculine-appearing sigil (e.g. huntsman or something) but not the same for a feminine-appearing sigil. I apologize if Iâm not phrasing this well!) Iâd be curious to know if you have any ideas!
Iâm reminded of this exchange between Lew Piper and Daven Lannister:
âSer Daven shrugged out of his cloak and tossed it at Little Lew. âYou a Piper, boy?â he growled. âYou have a runty look to you.â âIâm Lewys Piper, if it please my lord.â âI beat your brother bloody in a mÄlĂŠe once. The runty little fool took offense when I asked him if that was his sister dancing naked on his shield.â âSheâs the sigil of our House. We donât have a sister.â âMoreâs the pity. Your sigil has nice teats. What sort of man hides behind a naked woman, though? Every time I thumped your brotherâs shield, I felt unchivalrous.â
While the Pipers may not be embarrassed about their family sigil (certainly not Lew, anyway), the image of a naked dancing woman has provided easy fodder for mockery for the likes of Daven Lannister, among probably any number of others in Westerosi history. In turn, I think there may be some level of reluctance. To be sure, I donât think this would be necessarily or exclusively a religious concern: there is no mention, after all, that the Piper maiden is the Maiden, and given the examples of real-world naked women (and people generally) used in heraldry, the Piper maiden could simply be a standalone device. Nevertheless, the general misogyny of Westeros, heightened in the highly masculine performance of chivalry, may dissuade knights from adopting or embracing such a designation: all well and good to bear a woman on oneâs shield, but Seven forbid a knight actually be called a woman or accused of hiding behind a woman.Â
However, it is also worth pointing out that religious sentiment and knightly nicknames are not mutually exclusive, especially for particularly pious individuals - think, of, say, Damon âthe Devoutâ Morrigen, or Bonifer âthe Goodâ Hasty. Therefore, some especially zealous son of House Graceford may have embraced the family sigil as a way of highlighting his own devotion to the Seven. (Yet another reminder that I wish we knew quite literally anything about House Graceford.)
Too, when it comes to knightly epithets, not every sigil lends itself to eponymous inspiration, nor would every knight be associated with the virtues (or vices) of that particular device. Oberyn Martell was âthe Red Viperâ not because of the presence of snakes on the Martell sigil but because of the princeâs familiarity with both vipers and poison; Lucas Inchfield was âthe Longinchâ not because the name had any connection to House Inchfieldâs chequy bend sinister but because the name punned Lucasâ great height with the diminutive âinchâ; Lyonel Baratheon was âthe Laughing Stormâ thanks to his habitual booms of laughter during tourneys and various ancestral associates between Baratheons and storms, not because laughter or storms form part of the Baratheon sigil. While some sigils may (or may not) lend themselves to these sorts of designations, ultimately circumstances and personality may matter just as much to the way in which a knight is known.Â
Thank you so much! This is all really interesting to consider.
I also wish we had more information about the Gracefords. I think the world book described them as originally among the Andal adventurers who settled into the Reach. I always wondered if they were missionaries of the Faith as well considering their name, sigil and house words.
Hello again! Sorry Iâm trying to figure out how to make this a question, but if youâre willing to, Iâd love to hear any thoughts you have about Myranda Royce? I feel like sheâs interesting as a counterpoint to the general depiction of the Vale nobilityâit struck me that her open association with âAlayne Stoneâ could be considered unusual by her contemporaries. Do you think itâs genuine, or being gracious (or both)? Thanks and I hope you are well!
I think Myranda is quite an interesting character! (Long, more under the cut)
WHY SELYSE FLORENT SHOULD BE QUEEN OF WESTEROS WITH TEXTUAL PROOF
It is once again time to recline and ponder the many gifts of Queen Selyse Florent. Over the course of five books, what other character has had such an illustrious career so full of achievement or lived a life so dazzling and rewarding? As the fiscal year draws to a close we can see that so much of Westeros owes thanks to Selyse and House Florent for keeping it real and being classy and lots of other stuff. You may think the Tyrells are smart and competent but thatâs just fraudulent fraud from Highgarden.
I want to post of a few key passages that best demonstrate why Selyse Florent, mother of foxes, is so well-suited to the title of Queen.
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âYes,â Lady Selyse agreed. âPatchesâs helm. It suits you well, old man. Put it on again, I command you.â And I will serve you to the last, my sweet queen, Cressen thought, for suddenly he saw the way. âThank you, Your Grace,â he intoned, bowing low. âI never realized until now how much I needed your discerning and fashionable eye. This helm enhances my style very much and I never would have had the confidence to express myself without you.â
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âJoffrey shall die,â Queen Selyse declared, serene in her confidence. Davis saw that her confidence was well-earned, with her regal poise and her flawless hair. He suddenly felt ashamed for being such a hater and decided that from now on, he would obey her without question.
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Queen Selyse pursed her lips. âLord Snow, as Lady Val is a stranger to our ways, please send her to me, that I might instruct her in the duties of a noble lady toward her lord husband.â That will go splendidly, I know. Jon knew that Val looked up to Queen Selyse and was always hoping to have her be a mentor figure. âAs you wish,â he said, âthough if I might speak freelyââ âNo, I think not. Now you may sashay away.â Jon Snow bent his knee, bowed his head, withdrew. He knew that Selyse shouldnât be disturbed because she was about to go give away free cars to a bunch of her fans.
What happens to Hosters calculations for marriages if Edmure is never born, leaving her as her fathers heir? Similarly, what might the rule of lady Catelyn of Riverrun be like?
(I also had a few anon asks along the same lines back in the archive as well)
Iâm gonna be honest - I tend to think that if Minisa Whent died without giving birth to a surviving son, Hoster Tully would have remarried in an attempt to have a male heir. Hoster certainly had not settled on leaving Catelyn as his senior heir after her two elder brothers died as babies, nor did Hoster stop trying to father a âspareâ for the Tully dynasty after baby Edmureâs birth (which Catelyn in fact cites as the direct cause of her motherâs death). Likewise, Hosterâs traditionalist (by non-Dornish Westerosi standards), patriarchal focus on male successors is I believe reflected in his pride in the openly Tully features of Catelynâs son Robb as well as his promise to Lysa, following her forced abortion, that she should "be a good wife and the gods will bless [her]" with "sons ... [sic] trueborn sons". Fond as I definitely believe Hoster was toward Catelyn, I donât believe Hoster would have simply shrugged and said "I don't need a son, I'll let my daughter inherit"; if Hoster had been content to treat Catelyn as his heir presumptive for a handful of years before Edmure's birth, he was equally if not more eager to shift her thereafter into more traditionally feminine (again, certainly by Westerosi standards) roles, as de facto Lady (consort) of Riverrun and then as the dynastic bride to a suitably politically advantageous husband.
Which is not to say that Catelyn could not have been a very competent Lady (regnant) of Riverrun, ruling in her own right. Catelyn, as @turtle-paced has admirably and thoroughly demonstrated, was quite smart indeed, and I trust Bryndenâs assessment of his niece that she was, as Catelyn argued, the sort of woman who could ârule as wisely as a manâ.
Melisandre and Selyse at the night fires
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Revisiting Chapters: Catelyn VI, ASoS
Bit of a horror movie, this chapter.
The story so farâŚ
Amidst terrible weather and even worse fortune, the Starks are now arriving at the Twins for Edmureâs wedding.
people who say stannis "deserves" a better wife shut the fuck up challenge
what has stannis done to "deserve" a better wife- selyse doesnt treat him badly at all, he is the one who is an ass to her by publicly cheating on her and generally being rude and dismissive towards her-selyse is not "lesser" because she hasnt had a son stop buying into shitty in-world misogynistic expectations and think for a second.the man has sex once a year are sons meant to fall out of the sky
and yeah selyse is...well selyse but stannis is hardly a charmer.hes rude to everyone and everyone hates him(thats the cause of almost all his problems-his terrible personality and lack of interpersonal skills) and has a total of one friend who only puts up with him because he wants to get some
Hi again! Something that confused me in ADWD that I wanted to ask you, would you mind explaining why the widow of the waterfront changed her mind about helping Tyrion and Jorah? I got confused by the sequence of events between her refusing, Penny trying to attack Tyrion, and then she helps them find a boat going to Meereen. Sorry if its a dumb question.
It's not a dumb question! The sequence is a bit rushed and compressed, but I think the general idea is that the widow changed her mind less about Jorah and more about Tyrion.
Prior to the appearance of Penny, the widow was little moved to help Jorah, and for good reason. Where Tyrion quickly grasped the correct way to approach the widow of the waterfront, Jorah's tactless gift, brusque dismissals, and idealized declarations of chivalric intent toward Daenerys all failed to sway the widow. In the widow's eyes, Tyrion I think appeared as no more than Jorah's bagged prize: she asked Jorah whether Daenerys would "bathe in his [i.e. Tyrion's] blood ... or content herself with striking off his head" because she knew that Tyrion was â[k]inslayer, kingslayer, murderer, turncloak. Lannister" (emphasis in original) - that is, guilty not just of his own (ostensible) crimes but those of the family which had helped depose Daenerys' dynasty and kill her father. The widow was not going to spend her influence and resources, I think, simply to aid this man whose motives she distrusted in giving Daenerys a person to execute.
Yet after the appearance of Penny, I think the widow may have felt somewhat put on the spot to do something about Tyrion. Penny had just advertised Tyrion's true identity to the entire Merchant's House; if there were any lingering doubt that more people would be coming even as far as Volantis to seek his head, her revelation had summarily destroyed that notion. Already somewhat impressed by Tyrion's honesty, and aware that Tyrion was (at least effectively) enslaved (and so more representative of her interest in an actively anti-slavery queen), the widow may have decided that it was better to send Tyrion (and Jorah) along to Meereen in the hope of them reaching Daenerys than allow him to stay and simply be murdered in Volantis or elsewhere. If she, the widow, wanted Daenerys to know that "the slaves of Old Volantis" were eagerly awaiting Daenerys' eventual arrival and their liberation through her, then the clever, honest, currently enslaved Tyrion, very much unwelcome in and very much opposed to the Lannister regime in Westeros, could served as a capable representative for that message - much more so, anyway, than if he were a dead corpse whose head was mounted on Cersei's wall.
What do you think about Selyse Baratheon? Sometimes she gives me vibes of Cersei and Lysa.
Iâm a fan of Stannis, but even I know that he treats her terribly, and he wouldnât have been better to a âmore attractiveâ, more pleasant, more fecund wife. You thinking of Lysa/Cersei makes sense because sheâs an unpleasant person trapped in a loveless marriage, which helps show why Selyse is how she is (this is one of the strengths of the main series, how even minor characters have context for their actions). The difference between Lysa/Cersei is that not only is Selyse never attractive (men go out of their way to mock her facial hair, and she never has a loved one that softens her character), but she doesnât matter as much. Cersei is queen and Lysa is Handâs wife, daughters of Lord Paramounts, both of them become regents, both of them have sons they spoil; meanwhile, Selyse is the niece of a Florent, only chosen as a bride because Jon Arryn wanted to curb Tyrell power. Marriage to a kingâs brother is supposed to be a great triumph for herâŚexcept the king deflowered her cousin in her marriage bed, sheâs lady of an inhospitable island with few followers, her husband is more interested in ships and smugglers and can hardly stand to touch her, so the only child she has with him is a daughter, who had greyscale as an infant. She does the opposite of spoil Shireen, snapping at her to not talk about her cousin to Val, sending her to her room, kissing her on her unscarred cheek, Shireen wears her hood in her presence curled up away from herâŚIt makes sense that sheâd be so taken with the Rhllor religion. Suddenly she matters, her husband is the savior of the world rather than an embittered Master of Ships, all that has gone wrong in her life (Edricâs conception, Stannisâ coldness, her lack of children) can be undone by the right magic words and actions (even child burning). Whereas Cersei/Lysa found comfort in lovers (or pretend lovers), she found her sense of purpose in Rhllor, and thus will hold on to him to the end. Sheâs a lot more than âcrazy lady with fetuses in jarsâ like the show depicted.
She actually has similarities to Stannis in their uncompromising attitudes and stiffness with people. However, just like Cersei/Lysa, sheâs drawn much less sympathetically/impressively than her male counterpart. Petyr is one of the most formidable threats to House Stark in the series with little but his wits/money-making; Lysa is emotionally unstable, easily manipulated, and he kills her halfway through the series once sheâs no longer useful to him. Tyrion and Jaime are hailed as two of the best characters in the series because of their complexity, and both are capable of bravery and even some kindness; contrast Cersei, who enables torture, murdered at a young age, is also vain and easily manipulated, runs her regency into the ground in less than a year, etc. GRRM says that Stannis is a righteous man for going North, he believes in meritocracy, and he has the most known victories of any commander in Westeros; SelyseâŚcan you think of any redeeming traits for her? She mocks Cressen, advocates burning a child, wants to let the Hardhome wildlings die (so much for saving humanity), is classist and willfully misunderstands wildling culture, and she brings in the Florents who are incompetent (Imry) or cruel (Axell) leaders. Jon comments that she is always disappointing him. She has none of Shireenâs innocent openness, Stannisâ accomplishments and vision, Davosâ honesty and loyalty, or even Melisandreâs powers and showmanship. Sheâs repeatedly demeaned for her looks (as Lysa and later Cersei are), and I donât think sheâs made a sensible political decision in the series. But she doesnât even have the âmust protect my child at all costsâ motivation of Lysa and Cersei, who do love their kids as more than just heirs to a seat, and took desperate actions to defend them. Maybe some of the ASOIAF theorists are right and she will show some love for Shireen at the end, giving her life trying to protect or avenge her, in a somewhat positive character twist.
I apologize if this is a question you've already answered. Your posts about the "She-Wolves of Winterfell" are really interesting and that's an ASOIAF historical story I find really interesting. For some reason I had thought that Serena was older than Sansa, but apparently not. I am probably missing something obvious, but was wondering if you have any theories about Serena marrying Edric rather than Barthogan or Brandon? I know that Sansa and Serena were deliberately prevented from ruling Winterfell in their own right, but it seemed like a deliberate effort to exclude them even from being the line that the ruling Starks descend from? I feel like I'm maybe off the mark though?
For one, there seems to be some lack of clarity, at least for now, on the birth order of Rickon Stark's daughters. While TWOIAF's Stark family tree lists Serena as the elder sister and Sansa as the younger, Elio Garcia made a comment on Discord (reproduced on the Westeros.org forums) that per GRRM's own notes, Sansa was the elder and Serena the younger. This would not be the first time later volumes edited or changed established dynastic details, of course - indeed, F&B eliminated one of Jaehaerys and Alysanne's sons, introduced a new daughter, and reshuffled the birth order of their other children - and so I will not at all be surprised if, say, whatever "The She-Wolves of Winterfell" ends up being called confirms that Sansa was really the elder of the two daughters of Rickon.
Anyway, the marriages of Rickon's daughters are a largely (as yet) unexplained but very intriguing detail in the history of the Stark family. If Sansa really were the elder (and assuming that the birth order of Cregan's sons by Lynara will not change), then theirs would have been the marriage of the most senior male-line descendant of Cregan and the eldest surviving son of Cregan, a powerful combination of dynastic claims. Did Cregan and/or anyone else involved in making the marriage arrange just such a match because he (or, again, anyone else involved) envisioned Sansa and Jonnel as ruling as joint lord and lady, rather than one spouse subservient to the other? Did whoever arranged this match want to subsume Sansa's claim into Jonnel's - keeping her as only the future Lord Jonnel's consort rather than allowing her to press forward her own claim (with her own aristocratic husband, perhaps, to back her)? Or just the opposite - did the architect(s) of this union believe that Sansa should be the ruling Lady of Winterfell someday and wish to prevent Cregan's eldest surviving son from challenging her claim to the high seat of the Starks? Any or none of the above might have been the explanation for the marriage, but until and unless we learn more about the times and players involved, these and many other questions remain outstanding (and really, I could probably think of a thousand more possibilities of what any of the individuals involved might have been thinking, but that's a deep rabbit hole for as yet so little information).
As for Serena and Edric, their marriage is even more vague and subject to speculation. To cite Elio Gracia again, he asserts that Serena was first married to Jon Umber and then to Edric Stark. There is no telling when either of these marriages (much less specifically the one with Edric) occurred, and still less what might have driven such a union. Perhaps their marriage was an attempt to breed Rickon's line back into the ruling Stark dynasty, with Jonnel have no son by either Sansa or his second wife, Robyn Ryswell; as Edric would be Jonnel's heir presumptive for lack of (male) issue on the latter's part, maybe Serena was encouraged/arranged/forced to marry Edric in order to consolidate potentially warring claims into a dynastically suitable (and, again, presumably male) child. Perhaps it was an attempt by Edric to assert himself and/or his wife against elder brother Jonnel (especially if Sansa had already died), by claiming that Serena was the rightful heiress to Winterfell and Jonnel a usurper. Perhaps it arose from reluctance to have Serena marrying a non-Stark northern aristocrat and making a play for Winterfell against Cregan's sons. Perhaps it was genuinely a love match (especially since we have no sense of the relative ages of Cregan's sons and Rickon's daughters, making it entirely possible for them to have been of an age and raised together). Again, any or none of these suggestions might provide any explanation - we'll just have to wait for whatever "The She-Wolves of Winterfell" ends up being called, Fire and Blood Volume 2, and/or maybe details hinted at in TWOW (especially to the extent the Stark reunion at Winterfell was supposed to parallel or echo the events of "The She-Wolves of Winterfell").
Thanks so much for this great answer! Generally speaking, I am more engaged with the main series ASOIAF than with the histories, but this whole backstory is really intriguing to me. I also wonder what Sansa and Serenaâs religious upbringing and practice was like, if they worshipped both the Old Gods and the Seven or only one. My first guess is that, if they were part of the faith of the Seven (even alongside faith of the old gods), they might have felt that anyone contesting their claims to Winterfell would try to use that against them. I might be just really overthinking this, though.Â