the most baffling part of the bojack fandom to me reddit wise that is I've seen way more hate for Todd than Beatrice as if she wouldn't roast her defenders in her sane state of mind /drug fat people in her not so sane state of mind. while with todd you go on adventures with him and his pal scooby doo I mean mr. peanutbutter and not worry if your coffee is spiked
thinking about it its prob has to do with how society view homeless guys like todd and motherhood in general..
thinking more about it todd was better with a baby that wasn't even his than bea was with her own son.. more points for Todd.
When you sneeze in public, strangers will say “bless you”, even though they don’t know you.
When you ask for directions on the street someone will show you the way, even though they have nothing to gain from it.
People squeeze their legs against the chair so you don’t have to hop over them on your way to your seat in the theatre, and make funny faces to make babies laugh, and purposefully step on leaves to hear them scrunch, and hold the door open for someone leaving behind them, and ask what floor you’re heading to when you enter the elevator, and send others photos of things that reminded them of them, and recommend each other songs, and ask if anyone else wants a coffee because they’re getting one, and make videos teaching how to sew a button, and wish on shooting stars, and share fun facts, and listen to others rant about things they don’t even understand, and let you cross the street first, and give a bit of their food to others, and laugh at jokes they don’t find funny to make you feel good, and listen to kids talk for hours about nonsense, and let you know your keys fell from your pocket, and they may be strangers, but with every little gesture they’re saying “I love you, I love you, I love you”.
eyes tags yep beatrice horseman. watched in 2022 disliked her ever since . once you dedicate your life to abuse your kid for the rest of their life i got no sympathy for you
I just saw on tt a girl who was talking about Katara's character in tlok and that she doesn't feel like she was downplayed, on the contrary, she had a successful life and career.
While on this side I do agree with her, Katara was downplayed in TLOK. This is what I wrote in the comments:
The problem isn't that she was "reduced" as a healer (which is also an interesting choice of words, because healing takes a lot more skill than fighting), the real problem is that she isn't given the right recognition: the first example that comes to mind, is that Katara doesn't have a statue like the others.
One could argue that Katara was just humble and didn't want that much fame, but the entirety of ATLA shows that Katara isn't humble: she works hard to be recognized and she doesn't accept her work being downplayed.
So why doesn't she have a statue? Why does everyone talk about "the great avatar Aang" or "the wise Zuko", but Katara just gets to be seen as Aang's wife and the mother of her children? And it's not even a decision made in the story, the mistake is in the writing itself.
I could literally write a dissertation on how the writers clearly and heavily favoured the part of the Gaang that was more "masculine" perceived (besides Aang, but he's the avatar so it doesn't count).
Suki, for example, had a very similar destiny to Katara: yes, she was good in combat, but she was calm, kind and empathetic, exactly like Katara. Those characteristics are typically associated with women, and therefore, perceived less strong and less worthy of recognition.
And tbh, something tells me that if Katara had just a bit less importance in the story, she would've faced the exact destiny as Suki: erasure.
In addition, if we also look at how Korra's character is perceived by many viewers, the effects of this writing choice can be seen: Korra is not only prone to failing, but at the beginning of her story she is also weak, immature, hot headed and impulsive. When the writers made the decision of making her learn to be more calm, thoughtful, spiritual and empathetic, the viewers didn't accept that. Why? Because they taught the viewers that the only characters worthy of being successful were the ones that were always strong, or angry, or wise, or smart. The viewers feel like Korra is being successful in the story just because she's supposed to be the hero, and that is because the show made clear that usually on the heroes' side characters like her (or like who she became) don't get recognition.
And don't even think about "Oh, but Aang's calm and collected and spiritual and empathetic but he's not downplayed nor hated", because we all know about double standards for men and women.
In conclusion, internalized misogyny is really deep in this show, but considering that when both ATLA and TLOK were published people weren't familiar with this concept yet, it's being brought up just now.
Ok, so I saw this post before and I though it was well written and thought out, but I also find some issues with it. I absolutely agree that atla and tlok weren't perfect, including in its representation of women. But I personally have more problems with fandom Interpretation, rather than the writers.
I think we need to remember that the prime argument for the "Katara was sidelined" thesis, the fact that Katara doesn't have a statue that was clearly displayed, is that she was actually presebt in the show. The other members of the gaang, sans Suki, were present only in flashbacks, if at all, and two were straight up dead. These statues, which, at the time of B1 and B2 releasing were the only traces of the presence of the other Gaang members, as Katara seemed to be the only one strongly embeded into Korra's time.
I don't appreciate how the fandom completely erases the weight and importance Katara had in Korra's life, which I believe was intentionally highlighted in the very first episode, with Katara encouraging Korra's escape and giving her some very poignant words that set the tone for Korra's journey.
Katara: Aang's time has passed. My brother and many of my friends are gone. It's time for you and your generation to take over the responsibility of keeping peace and balance in the world. And I think you're going to be a great Avatar.
💬 16 🔁 45 ❤️ 145 · I need a gun because how is Katara not winning by a landslide
Katara helped Raise Korra, train her in her first elemen
Aang is, of course, going to be alluded to in tlok, because he is Korra's predecessor, and both in story and in a meta sense, Korra is trying to measure up to his legacy. This is another reason Aang statue is so prominently displayed, because his legacy towers over Korra as she attempts to pick up the mantle he left for her. There's, as I mentioned, a level of meta commentary there too. The creators are aware how highly valued atla is, and making a followup to it is probably nerve wracking, so they are, in a way, in a similar position to Korra.
Like man idk how on the nose this can get she's literally trying to imitate his statue in the intro sequence
I've been very vocal about disliking the ham-fisted and fanservice-y way Zuko and Toph were included in the later seasons. I suppose this is up to personal preference, but I much prefer Katara's thought out and natural inculsion into the show rather than "fan favourite octogenarian enters. fights for 5 seconds. leaves.". It just feels hollow, and probably only existed because people were Very Vocal about their dissapointment about the Gaang not being heavily featured in the Show That Wasn't About Them.
I also take issue with your interpretation of Korra. She's not weak, in fact, her fighting prowess is impressive, as noted by Katara herself. Korra is, however, ill-equipped due to her years of isolation. While tlok doesn't lean into this context explicitly, it is something that can't be seperated from her character. But Korra is a very confident young woman and a strong personality. And the fandom hated her. Like, I can't understate how awful people were and still are towards Korra. She could not catch a break. If something came easy to her, she was a Mary Sue, if she struggled, she was the worst avatar ever.
Korra could not win in any way, because she was strong, loud and real. She took everything the fandom hated about Katara and cranked it up to 100. She was a teen girl, a teen girl of colour who didn't fit what people want and expect of her demographic. She broke a mould and it made people despise her.
I have... mixed feelings about Korra becoming more "thoughtful, spiritual and empathetic". I'm not opposed to such a character progression foe Korra, but hated that it seemed like a confident brown girl being beated down and essentially tortured into becoming a smaller version of herself. And it feels so weird, because previously, in B1 and B2 and even B3, Korra's confidence and hotheadedness was not presented as a core character flaw that needed to be rooted out. It really does make me question why they went down that route in B4.
I do think a lot of people did accept Korra's 'transformation' with open arms, because she was more palatable like that. I know many people who talk about her like "well she was once rude and hot headed but now she's cool" at it churns my stomach.
I wanna note that it's not like Korra was a callous, unkind bitch in the earlier seasons. Yes, she could get easily angered, but I rewatching B1, it always surprises me how nice she is since the fandom acts like she was some sort of asshole. Like let's remember how sweet and kind she was to Asami, a romantic rival after Hiroshi wa srevealed as an equalist and she recognised that Asami was in need of emotional support.
And it's honestly because fandom interpretations deviate so aggresively from the text that I can't really place all the blame on the writing. Avatar's writing makes multiple blunders and missteps, but none to warrant the level of wild misinterpretations the fandom has.
Remember how people mocked Katara over connecting with people emotionally over her dead mother, despite the show never framing this as annoying or self centered? Or how when Katara would lash out or be mean because she's a teen, this was presented as normal, but the fandom still saw it as inexcusable and bitchy? When the show explicitly showed Katara uncomfortable with the label of motherly but the fandom still slapped that mom friend label onto her?
It's because of interpretation like that that I can't exactly place the whole blame squarely on the shoulders of the writers. Because audiences already go into shows with biases from their own lives and other media they've consumed, and this shows clearly in how the fandok interprets the show, particularly characters like Katara and Korra who are deeply nuanced and complex.
You're also forgetting that people did mock Aang for his "feminine traits". Yes, it is a certain group with a certain agenda, but Aang is often mocked for being open with his emotions, looking like "a bald lesbian" and being les masculine than his counterparts like Zuko and Sokka. There is still a shockingly large contingent of people who believe he should've killed Ozai. Hell, there was a whole meta adjacent episode and atla that pointed out Aang's emasculation both in world and by viewers.
You're trying to rationalise fandom misogyny by assuming these people are being mislead by some core writing flaw, but for the flaws Avatar does have, I can't imagine they would warrant the behaviour and ideas of many of the viewers. Especially when these interpretations often clash with the source text.
And it is sad to say, but many of these people weren't lead to unconsciously minimise women and femininity, or hate female characters for being outspoken and confident. They just had those views to begin with, and those views became embedded in widespread fandom interpretation.
Avatar's writing, unfortunately, did not dispel these interpretations en masse, but I can't say with clear consience that it is the source of them.
[Big disclaimer because I haven't actually watched the new Lilo and Stitch and tbh would rather choke on sewage than do so]
But honestly from what I heard of the new Lilo and Stitch movie, it has kinda reignited my memory of how the that side of the atla fandom talks about how Katara 'deserved better'. Acting like Sokka, Toph and Aang were burdens, and that she should focus on herself and "girlboss it up", so to speak.
If I had a nickel for everytime a native woman's "better ending" entailed her isolating herself from her family (found or blood) and likely losing her cultural identity I'd have at least two nickels which isn't a lot but it's mildly conderning that it happened twice
My hot take about the bojack fandom is that just going Bojack is Bad and nothing else isn't what the show was trying to tell us , yes he did bad things but the whole he is bad and nothing else is what Bojack Himself States a lot you are agreeing with Bojack.. and you aren't suppose Too. the point is that its never to late to Turn Yourself Around even after doing horrible things and that wallowing in guilt helps no one it wont absolve your crimes it wont help you grow as a person .
Accountability and Growth and learning to handle childhood trauma are themes of the show. .and so often it is who is the most good and who is the most bad . esp on reddit and suer its Reddit but i still expect more nuance from the bojack fandom in a show with.. Gray charaters there is way to much black/white thinking
in honor of phineas and ferb coming back can you imagine being a disney investor in the early 2000s watching some guys' storyboard pitch and you're like "oh this seems funny and cute but also relatively normal for a children's television show" and then this happens without warning
if i recall correctly this is exactly why the show was passed on for nearly 20 years lmao: networks only wanted either just the boys' storyline or just perry's storyline, and disney was the only one who wanted both
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