Untitled

[neo-kid-funk]

Commission I did for @rosabell14 !!!

Best way to describe it in Rosa's words

"Concept art for an AU wherein Bianca lives, and becomes a huge pain to a certain Son of Jupiter"

I definitely need to draw Bianca more 😭😭💖💖 she deserves the world WAHHHHH

[rosabell14]

Ahhhhhhhhhhh I just love love love this. And you! Sorry for being such a nitpicker during the process but this is perfect. 🥰🥰🥰

Another thanks to bobinthecomments for doing this for me. Please check their fics on AO3

[queen-of-andor]

Things Dany and Rhaegar have in common aside from being the prettiest bitches ( bc the author digs those targ looks)? They both have fanon versions which are responsible for every single thing that's wrong in Westeros. Soon someone will write a meta how Rhaegar and Dany are responsible for the children of forest genocide.

[katy-89]

asoiaf fandom when they talk about Daenerys and Rhaegar

[the-lake-lily-alchemist-deactiv]

Dany’s vision of Rhaegar in the HotU

So, I want to beat an already dead and over-beaten horse, and talk a bit about Dany’s vision of Rhaegar in the House of the Undying.

Now, I want to preface it by saying that I know this subject has been talked about thousands of times and it’s boring and tiring to talk about the same shit over and over again, but I just saw “Rhaegar is a prophecy-obsessed groomer/rapist” discourse on my twitter feed and thought I’d toss my two cents in.

Firstly, let’s look a bit at this vision as it appears in the books, shall we?

Viserys, was her first thought the next time she paused, but a second glance told her otherwise. The man had her brother’s hair, but he was taller, and his eyes were a dark indigo rather than lilac. “Aegon,” he said to a woman nursing a newborn babe in a great wooden bed. “What better name for a king?”

As we can see here, Dany, on her quest to find her children, stumbles upon this little moment long past. The text tells us that the three people shown here are Rhaegar, his wife Elia, and their son Aegon.

“Will you make a song for him?” the woman asked.

“He has a song,” the man replied. “He is the prince that was promised, and his is the song of ice and fire.” He looked up when he said it and his eyes met Dany’s, and it seemed as if he saw her standing there beyond the door.

This passage specifically has been interpreted numerous times. The text tells us that Rhaegar thought that his son, Aegon, was The Prince that was Promised. However, Rhaegar looks up when he says the prophecy, and looks directly at Dany, as if talking to her.

This to me reads as not-very-subtly being told the answer to the prophecy. Dany is TPTWP, as the author tells us through vision-Rhaegar. Thus, she is made aware of the prophecy, part of which we can find in the title of the book series.

I’ve seen the theory that Rhaegar seeing Dany was a time-space continuum bubble, of the present looking at the past, or, for Rhaegar, the present glimpsing at the future. How I see it, however, is that when he says those fateful words, and looks up to meet his sister’s eyes, he becomes both the gods’ and the author’s channel to make Dany and the reader aware of the answer to the prophecy. He sceases to be just a vision of the past and becomes the gods’/R’hllor’s voice, informing Dany. He tells her about the PTWP prophecy, because she is TPTWP!

Thus, when he continues with this,

“There must be one more,” he said, though whether he was speaking to her or the woman in the bed she could not say. “The dragon has three heads.”

we can infer that he’s saying this to Dany, because the gods want her to know this (and the author wants us to know this).

Mind you, these are visions, not just excerpts from the past/present/future. The conversation as it’s shown might not have taken place exactly like this, if it ever did. With how abrupt the cut from Rhaegar saying this to him going and playing the harp, I think he’s never said those words himself. Again, I believe that, in that moment (given that “There must be one more” and “The dragon has three heads” do not tie at all with the PTWP prophecy), it’s the gods using this vision of him to tell Dany (and the reader) an important message.

I shall say it one more time, just to be perfectly clear: IT’S NOT RHAEGAR TALKING ABOUT THE THREE HEADS AND A THIRD CHILD, IT’S THE GODS!

“There must be one more”, because Rhaegar has three children, not just two. Dany is fated to meet Rhaegar’s third child (and very probably fall in love and marry said third child, but that’s another overly-beaten, dead horse), and we as readers have been getting clues about who this child is since book one.

In no passage is it stated or implied that Rhaegar sought to have another child. He doesn’t go on and say, “When the maester has cleared you, we shall try for a third.” or “Because you can’t get pregnant again, I shall look for another woman to bear my third child.” The theory that he wanted another one, presumably a girl, to name her Visenya, is just that, a fan theory.

“The dragon has three heads. There are two men in the world who I can trust, if I can flnd them. I will not be alone then. We will be three against the world, like Aegon and his sisters.” (ASOS, Dany VI)

It’s clear (or it should be) that “the dragon has three heads” it’s specifically for Dany to know that there are two people out there whom she can trust and with whom she shall stand “against the world, like Aegon and his sisters.”

It’s not about Rhaegar thinking that his children are “the three heads of the dragon”. It’s about Dany. You would think it’s obvious given that it’s her chapter, but whatever.

[visenyaism]

Hello bestie I am curious as to your thoughts on the "Rhaegar saw Dany while she was having a vision of him and mistook her for a future Visenya" theory, if you're willing to share them? I can't decide which side of the fence I'm on (seems like a misinterpretation to me, but does do the whole reinforcing the tragic themes of prophecy thing, which I do love)

eh im not super into it being that literal i think prophecy works best when it’s a bit more thematic and metaphorical because the whole point is interpretation and misinterpretation. i also don’t think rhaegar ever saw dany and mistook her for a daughter, i think it would make more sense to mistake dany for himself, just like she mistakes herself for rhaegar in her own visions.

the version of this theory that i really like is that daenerys bringing the dragons back is such a powerful moment that returns magic to the world that it sort of reverberates out and wraps the timeline around itself. to the extent that people who are dreamers are getting snippets of it like hundreds of years earlier as well. but people see what they want to see and turns out a lot of targaryens who saw someone walking out of a fire unharmed or hatching three dragons from stone or melting a bunch of ice soldiers with dragonfire or crossing the trident and they said thats ME i am the prince that was promised in order to get the dragons back i have to do those things. and they killed themselves trying to accomplish this because it was never going to be them it was daenerys, someone who they would have denied all power and agency and never suspected of greatness if she had been around in their time. i think thats neat

[pontmercii]

How do you interpret Daenerys IV, A clash of kings? There must be one more, the dragon has three heads. Or Daenerys I, A storm of swords? Until one day Prince Rhaegar found something in his scrolls that changed him.

ACOK: that's Dany's vision, Rhaegar was looking at Dany through space and time, letting Dany know of the prophecy, inside her vision. He wasn't seeking the three heads of the dragon himself when he was alive. We know that anyone can be "head of the dragon", Aemon wished he could be by Dany's side to do precisely that, we know that Tyrion will probably be one of the heads. It has never been established that the three heads of the dragon have to be siblings nor that Rhaegar thought as much. So why would he exclusively want his kids to be the three heads? Based on what? The only real info we have of his mindset (outside Dany's vision) is that he believed his son was TPTWP, and that's because of a specific reason aka the comet that he saw on the night his son was conceived, that he took for the bleeding star of the prophecy.

ASOS: that's Rhaegar finding out about the prophecy that coincidentally is the title of the book series. That's him being a prophet type of character, an idealist looking far ahead, beyond political interests and rivalries, while the rest of the characters of his time were busy being petty political players. Of course that was Rhaegar's downfall because Rhaegar's idealism was crushed under the ruthless and unforgiving necessities of his present time. It was also his biggest redeeming quality and the reason why I personally find him special and I hold onto him even though he's a minor dead side character. This tragedy will be corrected by Dany and Jon who perfectly encapsulate Rhaegar's idealism while also enriching it with their important ruling experience and pragmatism.

[pontmercii]

I wish asoiaf fandom could tell the difference between subverting a trope and subverting expectations because it is not the same thing. While subverting a trope is a valid and very interesting approach, subverting expectations most of the time results in bad, incoherent and actually pretty conventional storytelling because it primarily aims at eliciting emotions of shock/horror/pain instead of constructing a meaningful, original narrative with solid and thought provoking themes. You don't actually need to subvert the readers' expectations in order to subvert a trope. You don't even need plot twists to subvert a trope. These are really not the same thing at all.

Example: Dany being TPTWP instead of Rhaegar is a subverted trope. The fact that the knights actually suck and the only one who actually thinks and behaves like an ideal knight cannot be one and will never be accepted as one is also a subverted trope. fAegon, the Prince Who Surived, being a scam is also a subverted trope. The element of subverting expectations is weak in most of these, nonexistent in some of these.

Dany becoming mad, Rhaegar being revealed as a machiavellian pedophile, Jon becoming one of the Others and being killed by Arya, the prophecy being just a scam of the universe and/or Rhaegar's wet dream instead of, ahm, the only solution in the war for the dawn, all these are not subversions of any trope. These are plot twists. These subvert the reader's very valid expectations and not in a good way. They go directly against themes, characterization and narrative that has been established for the past 30 years.

[pontmercii]

What I, an "extremely biased" targ stan, think about the function of Robert's Rebellion in the narrative and themes of asoiaf :

The Aerys regime was bound to be overthrown as a result of his paranoia and cruelty. Abuse of power leads to retribution.

The Lannisters were traitors then and continue to be traitors in the present timeline.

The current regime (the one that overturned the previous Aerys regime and is supposedly "better" because of that) is just as rotten as the previous one because it was founded on such cruelty.

The sack of KL (the peak of the Rebellion and the event that terminated the war) materializes Ned's valid guilt and remorse for associating himself with said regime, feelings that haunted him throughout his whole life and are pivotal in his arc in the present timeline.

The Starks, the Baratheons and the Lannisters' alliance that ended the Targaryen regime was meant to go to shit because it was founded on extreme cruelty and vileness. It was rotten from the start. Because of this, all of these houses were meant to start devouring each other, which is precisely what happens in the present timeline. Ned, Robert and Tywin each died disgraced and dishonored.

Foreshadowing of Dany and Jon's return that will hopefully break this rotten vicious power dynamic.

The sack of KL triggers Jaime's existential crisis for being an enabler of the new rotten regime. It showcases the vanity and contradictions of the strict moral code of knights and the impossibility of choice.

The sack of KL gives us context for House Martell's desire for revenge *against the Lannisters* in the present timeline.

Enlightened "neutral" faction of the fanbase that gets *The Themes*: Robert's Rebellion is about how a Machiavellian Pedophile wishing to get his dick wet for eugenic experiments destroyed his entire family and the realm + grrm subverting the prophecy trope aka prophecies are fake because they kill people delirium + Elia died because her aforementioned Machiavellian Pedophile husband took the Kingsguard with him to protect his side bitch/sex slave (depends) leaving her All Alone in the Sahara desert + targnation hates POC/Dead ladies club delirium/patriarchy destroys little girls/Lyanna is remembered only for her beauty uwu

[rosabell14]

Martell fans when Rhaegar and Lyanna run away together and Tywin and Aerys cause Elia to die: Rhaegar is directly at fault For Elia's death. He's a creep and was probably an abuser 🤬🤬🤬

Martell fans when Oberyn sleeps with underage boys and girls hits Obara's mother, takes her daughter away from her which causes the woman to drink herself to death: Oh my god Feminist KING. 😍 What a good man/dad/brother.😇 He should Poison Rhaegar and Lyanna for humiliating his pure sister. 😤What a man! So much better than those icky targs 🤢

[rosabell14]

People always focusing The Elia/Rhaegar/Lyanna discourse on Rhaegar's actions and what he should have done and whatnot which one would think is the correct thing to do but they completely ignore Lyanna and what she wanted.

You guys know that even if Rhaegar simply took Lyanna to the tower of joy to protect her and never slept with her things still would have went to shit right? Brandon would have still gone to king's landing and died. Rhaegar and Lyanna would have probably learned about the war months after and had Rhaegar died Elia would have still died.

People legit saying shit like "Rhaegar should have just given Lyanna back to Robert" She is not his fucking property you freaks. The nature of Lyanna and Rhaegar's relationship doesn't matter as much as what people assumed happened between them in universe.

It's never about how Lyanna who did not want to marry Robert Baratheon, made the best choice for herself. ASoIaF showed you again and again how difficult and dangerous life is westros is as a lone girl with Arya's storyline and people think Lyanna could have easily just... Lived on her own? Gone to essos? Running away with the prince of the kingdom/the one man with more political privilage than her bethrothed IS the best decision she could have made.

Just say you hate that Rhaegar fell for someone who wasn't his wife. Just say you can't stand a girl who slept with a married man. Just say that you think Lyanna should have sucked it up and married Robert Baratheon because "wah wah duty pure women who suffer for the holy matrimony"

Rhaegar protecting Lyanna from Aerys and an unwanted marriage(just as Jon decided to abandon duty for Arya btw) will never be the wrong decision in my mind. Yes Elia ended up suffering for it and she absolutely did not deserve to. But this is GRRM writing about what Westros does to its women how unwanted arranged marriages harm everyone.(Did we forget Rhaella/Naerys/Lysa?) You'll never find me blaming Lyanna for it or saying that Lyanna should have suffered or been subjected to marital rape by Robert Baratheon because "peace of the realm" or whatever. If peace in westros can only exist by the systematic abuse of women, then it's not peace. if a woman has to burn a whole realm so that she doesn't have to endure a shitty marriage/marital rape, then she gets to burn the realm as far as I'm concerned.

Fandom needs to stop fetishizing and glorifying female characters who "suffer in silence for duty" if it means that they're going to bash those who do not.

Lyanna/Rhaegar/Elia gets treated like a case of "man abandons family for Mistress" people may not know Ramsey boltons or tywin Lannisters. But this is a case they might be familiar with so they treat it with the vitriol they give to real life cases of cheating but that is simply a disingenuous way of engaging with the text. These are not your Diana/Charles/Camilla you people. This is a medieval like fantasy universe and Rhaegar and Elia are two people pushed towards a marriage by his father and her mother to spite Tywin Lannister. It's a marriage for family power. The point of the marriage is to create heirs. Nedcat and their bond is a 1 in 1000 case. Elia and Rhaegar were not Nedcat but it's implied there is a sense of fondness and political allyship. This is not 21st century first world country case where people choose who they marry and can get out of a marriage easily. Rhaegar and Elia cannot even have a divorce without bastardizing their children. The best they can do is seperate while still being legally married. Like Doran Martell and Mellario who are still legally married but Mellario has left for her native homeland.

I find it curious how no one ever mentions that when it comes to Dornish attitudes towards Elia and Rhaegar being married but not together 🤔

I give Rhaegar and Lyanna the same grace that I would have given Elia had SHE been the woman in love with someone else. Yes westros has a double standard when it comes to men having paramours vs women. Yes this is unfair and Elia would have faced consequences that Rhaegar wouldn't have. And if Elia THE CHARACTER had been upset about Herrenhel or Rhaegar and Lyanna's relationship she would be in the right and have my sympathies just like I completely understand Catelyn's feelings(not her behavior towards Jon but her anger towards Ned) but that doesn't mean that I suddenly am going to forget the context of the story and the world these characters live in.

[rosabell14]

Is dead and Haunts the narrative

Complicated character whose backstory gets revealed slowly

Is not perfect and makes mistake but is treated like a demon while other characters with far worse mistakes go Scott fee

Has an abusive parents and gets blamed for the crimes of said abusive parent

Fandom gets mad they didn't have future vision to prevent things going wrong

Gets blamed for a whole ass war

"DID NOT CARE ABOUT LOVED ONES AT ALL/IS AN ABUSER"

Has a character who is in love with them and takes care of their child(?) after their death.

Rhaegar Targeryen is truly the Rose Quartz of the ASoIaF fandom.

[rosabell14]

Trying to get into Elia Martell fandom because I'm interested in her dynamic with her brothers, mother and Ashara-

Fandom/Martell stans/Elia Martell stans: call Lyanna bitch/whore/mistress/hypocrite/boy bitch/whore of the north(cool title actually Lyanna should wear it with pride)/slut/every possible misogynistic insult ever

Saying she deserved to die/deserved to die a worse death/deserve to be subjected to marital rape by Robert/should be beheaded/SAed by the mountain instead

Say she's responsible for thousands of people dying/deserved to be hated by the entirety of westros

Blame HER for Tywin/the mountain harming Elia and Robert abusing Cersi. ROBERT.

Write wired AF fanfics where She is abused by oberyn/Oberyn is implied to poison Jon? And we're supposed to cheer?

(ps: I love how Oberyn is supposed to be a feminist king unlike that pedo Rhaegar as if Oberyn also didn't sleep with underage girls and boys or like he didn't slap his lover. No he's a respectful feminist king because he likes his sister)

"Lyanna was a selfish hoe because she didn't want to marry Robert and ran away with a married man and had her brother and father killed-" all this KNOWING Robert becomes an alcoholic and rapist and abuser. Also sorry I thought that people who have relations outside of the holy matrimony deserve death? Brandon was implied to be a playboy so as far as fandom is concerned he deserved to die 🥰

"Why would Rhaegar abandon his PERFECT, DELICATE, FEMININEcoughtradcough wife for that ugly horse face bitch omg" so this is Arya vs Sansa discourse all over again. And reeks of misogyny. What are you upset about? That Rhaegar didn't love your fave? That he fell for a tomboyish character rather than his traditionally feminine wife? That GRRM cares for Lyanna? That he doesn't clutch his pearl over the sanctity of arranged marriages like you?

Throw a tantrum If anyone dares suggest that Lyanna may have had relationship with Ashara and Arthur because Ashara was Elia's lady in waiting so that means she's her property. Never mind that it's possible that Ashara was in on the whole thing because of her brother and her house's nursemaid was also involved or that she could have been carrying Lyanna's niece or nephew. Or god forbid Ashara had a connection with BOTH characters or something.

"The GOOD queen Elia beloved by all westros basically Alysanne 2.0 and her TRUEBORN children vs that bitch mistress Lyanna And her BASTARD" something about these books really brings out the westrosi septas out of people huh

[rosabell14]

I don't need the main characters to defeat the others I need a scene where Lyanna and Rhaegar discuss baby names and their chosen girl name is Alysanne so all of the "Rhaegar wanted a Visenya/Rhaegar was trying to recreate the conquerors/Rhaegar would have hated Jon because he wasn't a girl" people to shut the fuck up forever

[rosabell14]

And yes Aemon is the potential boy's name for Jon for Rhaelya I accept nothing else

[rosabell14]

Blaming Rhaegar and Lyanna for the deaths of Rickard, Brandon, Elia and her children's deaths is so strange to me. I mean it completely goes against How GRRM writes accountability/characters but it's also doesn't work for me personally. Like yes you can personally dislike them for it or whatever but to genuinely count it as a part of their characterization or motivation is straight up like

"Catelyn and Ned are to blame for Jon being killed by other night watch members. They both know that NW is a dangerous place where people are miserable and are killed by wildings so they should have known that Jon would be killed. That proves that Ned doesn't care about Jon/is a bad father etc"

That's how you people sound like to me. Like Yes Rhaegar and Lyanna running away created a chain reaction which ended in people dying is not the same as Rhaegar and Lyanna being selfish villains who didn't care for anyone but themselves or that they somehow should have known that this would happen.

Yes what they did was reckless but to act as if they should have seen the rebellion/war is so dumb like... The Rebellion was not an inevitable thing. So many acts were done by other characters that could have prevented things from escalating.

Brandon goes to king's landing and does an oopsie treason by shouting for the Heir to the kingdom to come on and die and YET the rebellion wasn't inevitable. Aerys did not need to kill Rickard and Brandon the way he did. He could have given them a fair trial or trial by combat. No one and I mean NO ONE expected Aerys to do that even after all the bullshit he'd previously pulled. Rickard and Brandon didn't. The court didn't. But somehow Rhaegar and Lyanna should have been greenseers predicting this.

Even AFTER Rickard and Brandon's deaths, the rebellion wasn't inevitable, AERYS chooses to demand Ned and Robert's heads. even when the rebellion happens, AERYS is the one who demands that Elia retunes to king's landing when she was safe on DRAGONSTONE.

TYWIN only decides to sack kingslanding after Rhaegar dies. Hell even if Rhaegar somehow thought about a world where he died, Elia and his children's deaths was not inevitable still. Had Elia been allowed to leave kingslanding with Rhaella, she would have survived. Hell even the sacking does not necessarily mean that she had to die. There's a reason why Ned is so horrified by their deaths. It's not a thing that just happens in war. Elia was a noble woman. Her SA and deaths alongside the deaths of her children was an unthinkable crime. A completely unnecessary brutality that shows the kind of man TYWIN is. The fact that Robert did not punish Tywin shows the kind of man HE is. It exists to hel subvert the "Tyrant king is defeated and replaced by the rightful, just king" narrative in fantasies. In a normal situation where the characters weren't war criminals Elia would have been spared and Aegon and Rhaenys would have been held as hostage until they grew up and sent to the wall in Aegon's case and the Sept/silent sisters in Rhaenys' case.

Do you notice a pattern here? It all goes back to Aerys and Tywin. This narrative is given more detail in the world of ice and fire. Tywin and Aerys start as friends/allies only for their friendship to deteriorate as Aerys becomes more and more paranoid and it becomes clear that Tywin is the one ruling the kingdom and not him. Tywin then puts the death nail on Rhaegar and Aerys' relationship in duskendale when he makes it clear that he doesn't care if Aerys(who is a hostage) is killed because they have Rhaegar as a replacement. Elia Martell becomes Rhaegar's wife because Elia's mother wanted Elia and oberyn to marry Jaime and Cersi but Tywin refuses and suggests Elia marry Tyrion which is an insult to Elia's mother. Tywin wants Cersi for Rhaegar but Aerys refuses and also he makes Jaime into a kingsguard basically depriving Tywin of his preferred heir.

Elia's marriage to Rhaegar was an insult to Tywin. Once Rhaegar died, Once Tywin decided to join the rebels and make Cersi a queen, it was all gone to hell but Aerys literally put Elia on the bullet path when he didn't allow her to go to dragonstone where even HE knew it was safe which is why he sent Rhaella and his preferred heir viserys there.

Everything about the rebellion and the deaths that happened especially when it comes to Elia is basically a power struggle between Aerys and Tywin. It's a brilliant narrative made by GRRM that goes to waste when you decide to blame Rhaegar and Lyanna of all people. Rhaegar and Lyanna running away lit a match. A spark. But a spark doesn't cause an explosion on it's own. Aerys and Tywin were the ones to cover the house in gasoline.

Miscellaneous fandom talking points:

No. Rhaegar didn't abaondn Elia and his kids to just die. First of all I need people to realize that dragonstone princes left their families on dragonstone and then fucked off to do whatever all the goddamn time. We do not know why Rhaegar left dragonstone to start with, it could have been completely unrelated reasons to Lyanna before they ended up meeting. Dragon stone was safe to the point where it was not easy for stannis to take it. Elia and Rhaegar both CHOSE dragonstone after getting married to stay away from Aerys and Elia's court of Dornishmen and women were also loyal to Rhaegar it's heavily implied that they were all in on the plan to depose Aerys with a great council.

We do not know when Lyanna and Rhaegar became aware of Rickard and Brandon's deaths and of the rebellion. It's very possible that by the time they arrived in dorne, that Rickard and Brandon were already dead and the implication in a world of ice and fire is that Elia and the kids were already in king's landing when Rhaegar came back. And no once she was there, he couldn't have just committed treason against his father who already hated him and suspected him and get her out.

(People say that he should have somehow gotten her to dorne, same people who talk about Elia's fragile health... Even without Aerys forbidding it You think Getting a woman with fragile health and two young children from king's landing to dorne is willy nillly easy to do? WHILE a rebellion was going on?)

What he COULD do is: 1- defeat the rebels or at the very least Robert 2- come back and depose Aerys.

Which is what... He was planning to do. He just died. That's it. He DIED. People be talking about this man as if his spirit Possessed Tywin after death and ordered the deaths of his wife and kids like? No Robert Baratheon didn't do us all a favor by killing Rhaegar. Elia and her children died because Rhaegar was dead and could not protect them.

And no the kingsguard Guarding the toj instead of Elia and her the kids is not some mistake. Had they not been guarding Lyanna they would NOT have been in the red keep either guys. They would have fought besides Rhaegar. The only reason Jaime also wasn't fighting with Rhaegar was that he was basically Aerys' hostage. You think Aerys would have allowed Dornishmen Arthur dayne in the red keep? Never mind that the red keep WAS SAFE. Never mind that the most paranoid man in westros Aerys "Tywin's number 1 hater" targeryen also believed that the red keep was safe and that Tywin had come to help him. Never mind that there were hundreds of golden cloaks and guards in the city. Or that after Rhaegar's death, thousands of targeryen loyalists had also retreated to king's landing which is why Ned had followed them to the city to begin with.

If the golden cloaks and thousands of loyalists couldn't protect the red keep why do you think Three men who died against 10 northmen in dorne could somehow change Elia's fate? The kingsguard are not magical ninjas people. And if by protecting Elia you mean that someone should have protected her against AERYS... lol..Lmao even. Unless all of the kingsguard were pro midwe like Jaime, they would not have done a single thing. I suggest you go back and reread Jaime's chapters when he talks about how they're supposed to protect Rhaella "yes, but not from him"

And no none of this means I think Rhaegar was perfect and faultless. If you want to hate him for humiliating Elia in harrenhal go ahead the book agrees with you ( why do you think Dany is conflicted over it?) If you think he should have been more decisive and ruthless when it comes to the war/Aerys I agree with you and GRRM also probably agrees with you. Rhaegar's fault in my mind is his idealism when dealing with conflicts that could not be dealt with such things. Rhaegar being defeated in the rebellion because "he fought honourably, and nobly and then he died" is literally a lesson to Daenerys. Rhaegar trying to deal with his father the "correct way" instead of doing anything else like poisoning him or using a faceless man or anything else because it's not an honorable way to deal with him and cursed is the kingslayer IS the point. Rhaegar is meant to fail while Jon and Daenerys are those who succeed because they have his idealism and drive to change things while they also have the pragmatism that he lacks.

However acting as if he didn't care for his wife and children being in danger or DYING(Even though according to y'all he's a prophecy obsessed nutcase and Aegon is his ptwp hmmm) just blatantly goes against the character shown to us in the text. Blaming Lyanna of all people is even dumber and I can't even grace people who think that.

[rosabell14]

I don't need the main characters to defeat the others I need a scene where Lyanna and Rhaegar discuss baby names and their chosen girl name is Alysanne so all of the "Rhaegar wanted a Visenya/Rhaegar was trying to recreate the conquerors/Rhaegar would have hated Jon because he wasn't a girl" people to shut the fuck up forever

[rosabell14]

A Lyanna focused analysis on Rhaelya

Something that gets me about people's analysis (read, making shit up about them without reading the books) is the complete disregard for the actual narrative GRRM is writing about them and what they mean for the story, the characters and the themes.

This is to say that characters like Rhaegar, Lyanna, Elia, Ashara etc are more than anything tools of the plot. These are Characters who 1- are MEANT to die to pave the way for our main cast. 2- Are far more significant for what they represent for the themes and for what they mean in the story of the actual main characters.

That is not to say that they cannot be counted as their own characters or be fleshed out but any interpretation/theories you make of these characters needs to make sense for what GRRM has written already and to simply make for a better narrative.

Which is why I believe that "Lyanna was Groomed/used/manipulated/kidnapped by Rhaegar" is not only a incongruent with what GRRM has already written, but it would simply make for a weaker story.

Before anything I need to talk about the elephant in the room which is the age gap. Yes this age gap is problematic, yes this would be considered grooming in the real world and I would not approve of it but fandom needs to understand that if we are judging characters and relationships by their ages in westros 99% of the characters would be considered pedos. The books are filled with Relationships with far worse age gaps and not only between older underage girls. Sometimes we even get Older women/underage boys like Ygritte/Jon or uncomfortable Age gaps with queer characters like Renly/loras or Oberyn. Hell Elia Martell's mother originally wanted for Elia to marry JAIME. only for tywin to refuse and suggest an even younger Tyrion as an alternative yet I never see Anti Rhaelya people mention that. Furthermore, ASoIaF is a book series with 16 year old Jon as a commander of the night's watch, a 15 year old Daenerys ruling Slaver's bay, a 9/10 Arya killing people, organizing a revolt in Harrenhal or becoming an assassin. Hell Bran is going to become king of westros at 11 most likely. You don't have to like The age gaps. You have every right to criticize GRRM for them. But it is disingenuous to decide that the characters' ages only matter to the story when it comes to Lyanna and Rhaegar. Men in westros marrying younger women is a westros/GRRM problem not a flaw of Rhaegar's character.

Ultimately GRRM is far more interested in the agency of women when it comes to marriages and relationships rather than their ages.

Now with that out of the way let's go to Lyanna and Rhaegar.

Something that the fandom forgets is that while the show already Confirmed R+L=J the books have not and that GRRM is still not done with their story. Rhaegar and Lyanna are active mysteries and we still have not gotten every piece of the puzzle.

The first impressions of Lyanna and Rhaegar's story are given to us by Robert and Viserys. With Robert claiming that it was a case of kidnapping while Viserys claims that Rhaegar died for the women he loved. However Robert at the beginning of the book is a character that readers tend to like because of Ned's positive view on him while Viserys is clearly vile and so if anything readers tend to view him as unreliable and go with Robert's version. Except as the story progresses, we get hints of Lyanna's personality. Her willfulness and her similarities with Arya. Robert not truly knowing Lyanna as a person and only caring about her beauty and more than anything, Lyanna throwing doubt on Robert's nature and not showing enthusiasm about marrying him which in turn causes doubt when it comes to Robert's version of the tale and how Lyanna would have been his great love. In fact we get Ned slowly coming to terms with Robert's character flaws and reach the conclusion that Lyanna's assessment of Robert's character was correct.

And right after that Ned for SOME REASON 🤔 decides to compare Robert with Rhaegar and wondering if he frequented brothels. If you had not picked on all of the R+L=J signs from the previous chapter this moment will feel out of left field and also leave no doubts for any perceptive reader.

Why would Ned think about Rhaegar like this? Rhaegar supposedly kidnapped and assaulted Lyanna but Ned also thinks that he's above going to brothels? But then you remember that whenever Robert raged and ranted about Rhaegar Ned's reactions was basically 😐

It is also significant that Daenerys' first comparison with Rhaegar happens after she saves women from being raped but I digress.

We get more hints of Lyanna's personality and how she parallels not only Arya but also Jon. Lyanna who defended Howland Reed from bullies just as Jon defended Sam from bullies. Lyanna who would have held a sword had Rickard allowed it, Contrasted with Arya who is given a sword by Jon of all people and is allowed to practice with it with Ned's blessing. That Lyanna is heavily hinted at being the knight of the laughing tree. Which goes to explain her and Rhaegar's first meeting. It also once again puts Rhaegar and Robert on opposing ends.

Robert only saw Lyanna's beauty and not the iron underneath, Robert hoped to unmaks tkotlt while Rhaegar most likely discovered Lyanna's secret and kept it hidden from Aerys. Rhaegar literally saw Lyanna's iron before he saw her beauty. We also know that willful Lyanna cried after hearing Rhaegar's song which is presented as something out of the ordinary for her so clearly she is also affected by him

There's also a playing with gender which GRRM clearly loves as we see with Brienne and Jaime being a Beauty and the beast/damsel and knight parallel. Lyanna is the willful girl who would loved riding horses and wanted to have a sword and Rhaegar is a man who'd rather read books and play his harp which is seen as a feminine act and looked down on when performed by men. Rhaegar whom unlike Robert did not care for the song of steel. Not only does GRRM once again give us a couple who do not fit the gendered expectations of westros, he also constrasts Rhaegar with Robert hinting at the kind of person Lyanna was actually attracted to.

GRRM does not give us all of these things for nothing. Even if we ignore how he refers to them as a Romeo/Juliet type of story and a star crossed lovers tale. How their story clearly subverts the knight x princess vs the evil dragon in multiple ways or how it mirrors Lancelot x Gwen(Dolorous Guard/Joyous Guard and the tower of joy HELLO?) he's given us all of these hints in the very text. He did not Write Lyanna as a knight character, willful and strong for everyone to ignore them.

Not only do Rhaegar and Lyanna's personal traits hint at them being a romance, so does their story as a foreshadowing in other relationships and how they mirror other characters. Like Daenerys, Jon, Ygritte and Arya.

1- Ygritte tells Jon of the story of Bael the bard who takes away a daughter of winterfell. Her father then finds a BLUE ROSE on the girl's bed. Years later He finds out that the girl and Bael have been in the crypts the whole time. That the girl loved the bard and bore him a son who became an heir to winterfell. Grrm basically gave us a Rhaelya fanfiction. Lyanna is the northern girl who loved a bard and bore him a son. A son that is represented by a blue rose. Jon is represented by the blue rose in Daenerys' dreams as a blue rose on the wall and he constantly dreams of the crypts of winterfell. Rhaegar/Lyanna and Jon are a direct parallel to The princess/Bael and their son.

2- Rhaegar is constantly compared to Daenerys. She dreams of being him. She gains comfort from him. He is her guiding star. Her marriage to Hizdar is compared to Rhaegar's marriage to Elia while Daenerys has feelings for Daario. Daenerys also dreams of Jon as a blue winter rose. The targeryen x stark(snow in Jon's case). Rhaegar and Lyanna are basically a foreshadowing for Jon x Dany. Not only that but Daenerys also wishes she could be LYANNA. Stolen away just as lyanna was "stolen" by Rhaegar.

3- there's also the rumored tale of Jacerys falling in love with Sera Snow the daughter of cregan Stark. Jace supposedly marries Sera and his dragon lays eggs in winterfell. While the in universe historians do not believe this tale, it's actual importance once again is to mirror Both Rhaegar and Lyanna who have a child that dreams of the crypts of winterfell. But also mirrors the future romance of Dany a targeryen marrying a snow.

4- it is very relevant that Ygritte is the person who tells Jon of Bael x stark girl. Jon as Rhaegar and Lyanna's son is the epitome of the "Love vs Duty" theme that his parents also struggled with. Arya may get the most explicit comparisons with Lyanna while Dany gets the same with Rhaegar, but Jon's story mirrors their themes more than anything. Jon struggles with his love for Ygritte vs his duty to the night's watch. He wishes he could stay with her. Hates himself for loving her and constantly thinks about his father when it comes to her. He thinks about What Ned would have done, if Ned would have been disappointed, justified himself because Ned had a bastard as well. All of this becomes ironic because Ned DIDN'T have a bastard but his biological father did. Rhaegar chose to love Lyanna but had to leave her to fullfil his duty and fight in the rebellion. Ygritte also very much mirrors Lyanna. She even says that she'd rather be "stolen" by a man who is worthy of her and she can respect rather than be given to marry a man by her father as if she's cattle. Directly mirroring Lyanna choosing Rhaegar over Robert. Furthermore Both Lyanna and Ygritte die after their lovers leave to fullfil their duties.

5- there's also Jon once again mirroring Rhaegar when he abandons his duties to the night's watch to save Arya(the Lyanna stand in) from a marriage to a horrible man after she(technically Jeyne) ran away from him ("I want my bride back, I want my bride back, I want my bride back" is the most Robert Baratheon thing ever come on) not only that but while he says ghost's name, he dies thinking of Arya just like Rhaegar died saying Lyanna's name.

6- I see a lot of fans using their misreading of the text to disregard Lyanna's story being one of love and agency and choosing her own destiny. "There's no way Lyanna would run away with a married man after criticizing Robert for Cheating-" lemme remind you that we do not know of When/how Rhaegar and Lyanna's relationship started. It would have taken months for them to reach the ToJ from the riverlands for all we know Rhaegar originally only took her to dorne to protect her and they fell in love along the way. And even IF she was in love with him from the start. Rhaegar and Robert are constantly shown as opposites by the text. No Robert sleeping around with everything with legs is not the same as Rhaegar abandoning his arranged marriage(we don't even know if he planned on abandoning Elia and the kids for good y'all that's just a thing fandom made up. 😭 Elia was still his legal wife as Aegon was his heir and the prince that was promised in his eyes. Targeryen princes left their families on dragonstone to do other shit for months all the goddamn Time. Hell even if he didn't leave with her there's no guarantee he would have gone back to dragonstone that man was planning a coup against his father for gods sake) for the one woman he fell in love with. It does not make Lyanna an idiot or a hypocrite.

7-"WHYYYY would Lyanna still stay in toj after her brother and father died, clearly she was forced-" lemme stop you right there. First of all GRRM is not his fandom. He's not some #justiceforElia AO3 user. He does not blame Rhaegar and Lyanna for Aerys or tywin's actions. This is simply NOT how he writes accountability in his story. He does not blame Lyanna or Rhaegar for Aerys killing the starks just as he doesn't blame Rhaegar and Lyanna for the deaths of Rhaegar's family. If he doesn't write the Martells blaming Rhaelya for Elia and her children dying, I fail to see why he would write Lyanna blame Rhaegar for his father's actions. Furthermore, The fans need to stop being D&D brained. This isn't 2026 where Rhaegar and Lyanna could get news from Westros.com. Rickard and Brandon were most likely dead before Lyanna and Rhaegar even reached Dorne. It would have even taken longer for Any news to Reach Lyanna and Rhaegar. Hell unless we get more information the two of them only got the news when Gerold hightower arrived in the tower. And... I'm sorry but what would Lyanna do? Lyanna who is most likely pregnant at the time? She can't stop the rebellion that is already happening. If she leaves, her life could be in danger from Rebels and Aerys alike. Never mind that Robert would definitely kill her son. And once again WHY would Ned have a neutral/better than Robert attitude towards Rhaegar if there were any hints to him that she was a prisoner? WHY would he talk/think about Arthur Dayne with such respect if he wasn't allowing Lyanna to leave? People always ignore Jon when analyzing Lyanna and the KG's actions. Arthur Dayne and the rest of the kingsguard don't have an access to aGoT by GRRM. they are not reading Ned's chapters. All they know is that Rhaegar and his family are dead. That Tywin's men(rebels basically) butchered Rhaegar's wife and children and Robert Baratheon didn't have shit to say about it and Ned is Robert's bestie. Could it be, could it be that they're protecting Lyanna and Jon from Bobby's dumbass best friend who could very well deliver Lyanna to him like a trophy?

8- What literally WHAT would be the reason for GRRM to write Lyanna as a strong, and willful girl who ran from one shitty man only to end up with another shitty guy? Why write so many parallels with Jon, Arya, Ygritte , and even Dany for this story? Why tell us of Bael x stark girl? What is the literary pros of Lyanna's story being about kidnapping/SA instead of a tragic love story? What would it add to Dany? Who's already dealing with the legacy of her father and her brother's abuse only for the story to go " Lol the one family member you care about is also crazy/Evil" To JON? Jon who wanted to know more than anything that his mother wasn't some brothel woman, used and discarded by his father? Jon who more than anything wants to know that his mother was loved? Rhaelya loving each other but dying is tragic enough. Wanting to escape gendered duty but Lyanna dies in a birthing bed and Rhaegar dies with a sword in his hand. They die gendered deaths. They don't get to raise their son. That's their tragedy. We don't need to take what little agency Lyanna had in her story. Rhaelya being anything other than a tragic love story actively makes the story WORSE

[rosabell14]

"Lyanna criticizes Robert for Cheating but she runs away with a married man! She's a whore and a hypocrite-"

Is such a misunderstanding not only of lyanna's character but of Ned's entire Arc in aGoT. And why that certain Lyanna flashback is so important to his arc

Yes, many Lyanna mentions in Ned's point are R+L=J evidence but more than that, Ned's big emotional Arc In the first book is becoming Disillusioned by Robert and the new Regime.

Every Ned chapter is basically one step in him realizing that Lyanna was RIGHT about Robert and that his friend is a pos and a bad king.

1- the book is filled with example after example of Robert being an ass king. He's unwilling to actually govern the realm unless it's related to fighting wars, he explicitly chooses Ned as a hand so he can put his responsibilities on Ned so he can whore and drink. He puts the realm in debt, he surrounds himself with Lannisters and gives them power when he should know that they're two timing and not trustworthy, he constantly ignores Ned's advices and literally refuses to listen to him when Ned is trying to tell him of the incest plot etc

2- The deaths of Elia and her children and how it haunts Ned's every chapter how it's the one blot on Ned and Robert's friendship. Just as Robert once excused the deaths of Rhaegar's family, he orders Daenerys' assassination showing that he not only has not changed in excusing the deaths of innocents, he's actively become WORSE, and now is an active participant in the atrocities. it reinforces again and again that Lyanna and Ned are right in fearing Robert when it comes to Jon's life. Sansa's pleading for lady's life(who Robert condemns to death even though he knows that she's innocent) is directly compared to Lyanna pleading for Jon's life. Furthermore, Ned also calls out Robert for his cowardice in that he's not even willing to kill lady himself, just as he calls Robert a coward as he sends Assassins after Danny instead of killing her himself. In fact it is the reason why Ned dooms himself by telling Cersi his plans because he KNOWWS that Robert will kill Cersi's innocent children. It is CRUCIAL that Ned's flashback with Lyanna happens after their Argument about Daenerys.

After quitting his position as hand, Ned goes to a brothel with little finger and finds one of Ned's bastards, Barra. We're constantly reminded of the fact that it's Raining.

"The rain had driven everyone under their roofs. It beat down on Ned’s head, warm as blood and relentless as old guilts. Fat drops of water ran down his face."

Now what is causing Ned to feel guilty I wonder? 🤔

“Robert will never keep to one bed,” Lyanna had told him at Winterfell, on the night long ago when their father had promised her hand to the young Lord of Storm’s End. “I hear he has gotten a child on some girl in the Vale.” Ned had held the babe in his arms; he could scarcely deny her, nor would he lie to his sister, but he had assured her that what Robert did before their betrothal was of no matter, that he was a good man and true who would love her with all his heart. Lyanna had only smiled. “Love is sweet, dearest Ned, but it cannot change a man’s nature.”

The girl had been so young Ned had not dared to ask her age. No doubt she’d been a virgin; the better brothels could always find a virgin, if the purse was fat enough. She had light red hair and a powdering of freckles across the bridge of her nose, and when she slipped free a breast to give her nipple to the babe, he saw that her bosom was freckled as well. “I named her Barra,” she said as the child nursed. “She looks so like him, does she not, milord? She has his nose, and his hair …”

“She does.” Eddard Stark had touched the baby’s fine, dark hair. It flowed through his fingers like black silk. Robert’s firstborn had had the same fine hair, he seemed to recall.

“Tell him that when you see him, milord, as it … as it please you. Tell him how beautiful she is.”

“I will,” Ned had promised her. That was his curse. Robert would swear undying love and forget them before evenfall, but Ned Stark kept his vows. He thought of the promises he’d made Lyanna as she lay dying, and the price he’d paid to keep them.

“And tell him I’ve not been with no one else. I swear it, milord, by the old gods and new. Chataya said I could have half a year, for the baby, and for hoping he’d come back. So you’ll tell him I’m waiting, won’t you? I don’t want no jewels or nothing, just him. He was always good to me, truly.”

Good to you, Ned thought hollowly. “I will tell him, child, and I promise you, Barra shall not go wanting.”

She had smiled then, a smile so tremulous and sweet that it cut the heart out of him. Riding through the rainy night, Ned saw Jon Snow’s face in front of him, so like a younger version of his own. If the gods frowned so on bastards, he thought dully, why did they fill men with such lusts? “Lord Baelish, what do you know of Robert’s bastards?”

“Well, he has more than you, for a start.”

“How many?”

Littlefinger shrugged. Rivulets of moisture twisted down the back of his cloak. “Does it matter? If you bed enough women, some will give you presents, and His Grace has never been shy on that count. I know he’s acknowledged that boy at Storm’s End, the one he fathered the night Lord Stannis wed. He could hardly do otherwise. The mother was a Florent, niece to the Lady Selyse, one of her bedmaids. Renly says that Robert carried the girl upstairs during the feast, and broke in the wedding bed while Stannis and his bride were still dancing. Lord Stannis seemed to think that was a blot on the honor of his wife’s House, so when the boy was born, he shipped him off to Renly.” He gave Ned a sideways glance. “I’ve also heard whispers that Robert got a pair of twins on a serving wench at Casterly Rock, three years ago when he went west for Lord Tywin’s tourney. Cersei had the babes killed, and sold the mother to a passing slaver. Too much an affront to Lannister pride, that close to home.”

Ned Stark grimaced. Ugly tales like that were told of every great lord in the realm. He could believe it of Cersei Lannister readily enough … but would the king stand by and let it happen? The Robert he had known would not have, but the Robert he had known had never been so practiced at shutting his eyes to things he did not wish to see. “Why would Jon Arryn take a sudden interest in the king’s baseborn children?”

The short man gave a sodden shrug. “He was the King’s Hand. Doubtless Robert asked him to see that they were provided for.”

Ned was soaked through to the bone, and his soul had grown cold. “It had to be more than that, or why kill him?”

Littlefinger shook the rain from his hair and laughed. “Now I see. Lord Arryn learned that His Grace had filled the bellies of some whores and fishwives, and for that he had to be silenced. Small wonder. Allow a man like that to live, and next he’s like to blurt out that the sun rises in the east.”

There was no answer Ned Stark could give to that but a frown. For the first time in years, he found himself remembering Rhaegar Targaryen. He wondered if Rhaegar had frequented brothels; somehow he thought not.

The text literally lays is out for everyone to see. Roberts lustful nature has been highlighted since the very first chapter he's appeared. But now after 16 years Ned finally(regretfully) realizes what Lyanna was telling him. Why she chose Rhaegar who unlike Robert, did not frequent brothels.

The contrast between Robert and Rhaegar is actually really important because Robert's main targets are always sex workers whom he has power over, whom he can discard without any consequences. It's not a coincidence that the only bastard that he's acknowledged is the son of a noble woman. In this chapter Ned compares Robert not only with Rhaegar but also with himself. Robert lovebombs women to sleep with them and then discards them when he's gotten bored of them. In fact Ned can't even deny that Robert would ignore Cersi murdering his children and selling his lover to slavery. That's how low Robert has fallen in Ned's eyes.

Lyanna tries to tell Ned that Robert is a whoremonger, a lustful man and Ned tries to disregard her by telling her that Robert will be loyal to her after marriage because he "loves" her(and Ned later acknowledges that this Robert only saw Lyanna's beauty but not her nature) except Lyanna is RIGHT. Robert literally proves her right in the rebellion when he(while he believes that lyanna is being raped "hundreds of times") hides in a brothel in old town and sleeps with every sex worker there and fathers Bella. This man cannot keep it in his pants while claiming to fight for his "beloved" Lyanna. In this chapter Ned finally realizes what his young sister saw while he was too blind to realize. But there's nothing he can do now. Rhaegar and Lyanna are dead. Ned had to ruin his own honor to protect for a promise and he's been haunted by his sisters death and Jon's upbringing as a bastard in westros for 16 years.

Robert claims to love Lyanna while he sleeps around and fathers Bastards and then he abaondns both mother and child vs Rhaegar loves lyanna and takes her to a tower and assgins three members of the kingsguard(one of them being his oldest friend) to protect her.

It's not about Rhaegar or Robert cheating. It's about their integrities and nature. It's about who is truthful about their love. Rhaegar was married to Elia. An arranged marriage where as far as we know, he never claimed to be in love with her. He was fond of her.

Rhaegar being loyal to the women he married for duty until he met someone he actually loved and whom he stuck by and tired to protect(while also going back to fight and protect his wife and kids no I do not buy the notion that he abandoned them to die)is NOT the same as Robert claiming to love Lyanna and then fucking everything that moves.