former enjoyer current hater @stairinventor - Tumblr Blog

stairinventor

still not actually baptist

nonenosome10-deactivated2023040

Let me guess. The super vague Hate Speech?

westballz-baptist-church

not yet at least

dankxsinatra

The Jewish lobby spent $30m to trick boomers into voting for their guy while simultaneously making everyone hate Israel even more. Big night for radicalization lmao

geminiagentgreen

As the 31st draws near, I just wanted to say:

If your salvation must be earned

If your salvation must be maintained

If God can call you His child but then revoke your adoption

You don't have the Gospel of Jesus Christ, you have a different gospel, one of works - of your efforts - and stand condemned.

Salvation is in Jesus Christ and Christ Jesus alone. He alone was necessary, enough, and capable of redeeming you from your sins. There is no collaboration with you for your salvation, nor are any mediators - such as will be suggested - needed: His mother, any saints, any church leaders, any angels even...no one but Christ can save you, no one who professes Jesus as Lord and Savior should think that anyone else can or should.

stairinventor

I feel like this discussion always falls into being a phrasing issue where most (not all) people believe the same thing.

Ephesians 2:8-9: “for by grace have ye been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, ‭it is‭ the gift of God;‭ not of ‭works‭, that no man should glory.”

Then the very next verse,

“For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good ‭works‭, which God afore prepared that we should walk in them.‭”

In other letters, Paul specified ‘works of the law’ because there were teachers trying to say that in order to be a Christian, one must also be a circumcised and obey the law of Moses. Works of the law do not have any ability to erase sins and achieve salvation.

Hebrews 9:22: ‭”And according to the law, I may almost say, all things are cleansed with blood, and apart from shedding of blood there is no remission.‭”

10:1: “For the law having a shadow of the good ‭things‭ to come, not the very image of the things, can never with the same sacrifices year by year, which they offer continually, make perfect them that draw nigh.‭”

10:10 “By which will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.”

No sacrifice or work we could do outside of Jesus would sanctify us. Only Jesus was able to be the perfect offering which gave us a path to redemption.

But salvation requires active participation on our part. We cannot just say ‘I believe’ and do nothing.

Hebrews 10:24 “let us hold fast the confession of our hope that it waver not; for he is faithful that promised:‭ and let us consider one another to provoke unto love and good works;‭ not forsaking our own assembling together, as the custom of some is, but exhorting ‭one another‭; and so much the more, as ye see the day drawing nigh.‭”

In Hebrews 11 Paul lists major old testament figures and their faith and acts thereof. In Hebrews 12:1-8 Paul states “‭Therefore let us also, seeing we are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,‭ looking unto Jesus the author and perfecter of ‭our‭ faith, who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising shame, and hath sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.‭ For consider him that hath endured such gainsaying of sinners against himself, that ye wax not weary, fainting in your souls.‭ ‭Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin:‭ and ye have forgotten the exhortation which reasoneth with you as with sons, My son, regard not lightly the chastening of the Lord, Nor faint when thou art reproved of him;‭ For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, And scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.‭ ‭It is for chastening that ye endure; God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is there whom ‭his‭ father chasteneth not?‭ ‭But if ye are without chastening, whereof all have been made partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.‭

When Paul talks about running, and striving, these are actions and things that must be continually done. If we choose to not do the things we are commanded as believers to do, then we are in sin. Hebrews 10:26-27 “‭For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more a sacrifice for sins,‭ but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and a fierceness of fire which shall devour the adversaries.‭”

Romans 6:1-2: “What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?‭ God‭ ‭forbid‭. We who died to sin, how shall we any longer live therein?‭”

1st John 1:6-8: “If we say that we have fellowship with him and walk in the darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:‭ but if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus his Son cleanseth us from all sin.‭ ‭If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.‭”

You say that salvation is not earned, which I don’t think is a helpful framing of the situation. We cannot attain salvation ourselves, as we cannot make the perfect sin offering. Jesus is the only one who was capable of that. But in 1st Corinthians 9:23-27 Paul wrote: “‭And I do all things for the gospel’s sake, that I may be a joint partaker thereof.‭ Know ye not that they that run in a ‭race‭ run all, but one receiveth the prize? Even so run; that ye may attain.‭ And every man that striveth in the games exerciseth self-control in all things. Now they ‭do it‭ to receive a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible.‭ ‭I therefore so run, as not uncertainly; so fight I, as not beating the air:‭ but I buffet my body, and bring it into bondage: lest by any means, after that I have preached to others, I myself should be rejected.”

If we ‘run to attain’ salvation, are we not earning our salvation through faith? Jesus unconditionally made the first offer of salvation to all, but there are conditions to which we must accept, and it is by following his instruction that we earn salvation.

You say that maintaining salvation is not the Gospel of Jesus, but I would say faith must be continually built and maintained, and salvation does not occur without faith.

In Ephesians 4 Paul listed the gifts from the Holy Spirit and the purpose of those gifts were “‭for the perfecting of the saints, unto the work of ministering, unto the building up of the body of Christ:‭ ‭till we all attain unto the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a fullgrown man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:‭ that we may be no longer children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, in craftiness, after the wiles of error;‭ but speaking truth in love, we may ‭grow‭ up in all things into him,”

To me, growth is maintenance, and I think you can say salvation is through faith, and faith must be maintained.

I’m not sure about the word choice of collaboration, because we cannot sacrifice ourselves for the sins of people like Christ did, but we may be asked to strive for the faith unto death.

We are ultimately active participants in salvation. If we do not participate then we fall away and must be restored once more. Not that we need another sacrifice, but “If we confess our sins, he is faithful and righteous to ‭forgive‭ ‭us‭ our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.” 1st John 1:9

Now I must ask, have I stated anything incorrect? If so please explain how I may have misunderstood these scriptures.

If I haven’t stated anything incorrect, then I must ask, why have you framed the questions in the manner you did? I agree that man cannot save himself by works outside of Jesus, but like in Ephesians 2, we are called to do good works, not of the law, not of man, but of the faith. If we neglect those, then as James said, our faith is dead.

I find your framing to encourage dead faith and that is where I want to hear your thought process, because from what I remember reading from your posts in the past, we do both ultimately agree on what is required of us.

geminiagentgreen

The thing is, though, that I am not at all defending a dead faith, for I wholly belive that a true, salvific faith produces good works - the likes of which the aforementioned passage from Ephesians speaks of. To be truly saved is to be truly transformed, but we aren't immediately like Christ in nature, right? The Christian life is one of sanctification: we are being worked on as we walk with Christ, but we are still with Christ. To completely fall away isn't to have failed the race, but to show that we were never really running at all, and the verse I am using to defend this claim is 1 John 2:19: "They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us."

We are yet to be perfect and blameless, and we are to participate in our sanctification, but I don't believe that the only grace the Lord provides is a day-by-day confession and repentance that saves daily - though indeed, if we are of the Lord, we run to Him for grace, strength, and cleansing, but as children adopted, not test-runs on a razor's edge of His patience.

What is the point of adopting us out of spiritually dead lives into sonship of God if we can lose that sonship? How can Christ's sacrifice be once and for all if we have to maintain salvation? Hebrews 7:27 tells us that "He has no need, like those high priests, to offer sacrifices daily, first for his own sins and then for those of the people, since he did this once for all when he offered up himself.", but if we're needing to maintain our salvation, aren't we just doing as the priests of old did for the people through continual sacrifices? At the end of the day, I find salvation + works to be logically inconsistent with the gospel of Jesus Christ and the nature of God Almighty.

stairinventor

I am in agreement that we are to grow in Christ, as Paul stated in Ephesians 4, and other times where Christians are referred to as ‘babes in Christ.’

I don’t quite agree to say that it means they were never running. Paul did state that all run the race and all prepare and practice, but one receives the prize. Likewise, one can also grow weary and faint. If it weren’t possible, Paul would have no need to exhort and comfort people to keep fighting and keep running the race. He also wouldn’t have needed to state that he needs to conquer his own body lest he ends up rejected as well. It is very well possible to forfeit in the middle of a race.

Reading 1 John 2, I don’t find that scripture to be a blanket statement in the context of the chapter. Just before John wrote that, he said in verse 18 “‭Little children, it is the last hour: and as ye heard that antichrist cometh, even now have there arisen many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last hour.‭”

In this chapter I believe it is about false teachers, and while it is correct to say that the group John spoke of were never truly brethren, I don’t believe verse 19 can be a blanket statement for every person who claims to be a Christian yet doesn’t finish the race.

I want to bring up the parable of the sower, Matt 13:18-24 “‭Hear then ye the parable of the ‭sower‭.‭

‭When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, ‭then‭ cometh the evil ‭one‭, and snatcheth away that which hath been sown in his heart. This is he that was sown by the way side.‭

And he that was sown upon the rocky places, this is he that heareth the word, and straightway with joy receiveth it;‭yet hath he not root in himself, but endureth for a while; and when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, straightway he stumbleth.‭

And he that was sown among the thorns, this is he that heareth the word; and the care of the world, and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word, and he becometh unfruitful.‭

And he that was sown upon the good ground, this is he that heareth the word, and understandeth it; who verily beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some a hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.”

It was called the parable of the sower, as these are the different kinds of hearers that teachers will encounter. There seeds sown among the thorns, those who hear, and then later become unfruitful. You can’t become unfruitful if you were never fruitful to begin with.

In Romans 11, Paul is talking about how the Israelites were cut off by God for rejecting Jesus, and how the gentiles received sonship by believing in Jesus. In verses 17-24, Paul wrote “‭But if some of the branches were broken off, and thou, being a wild olive, wast grafted in among them, and didst become partaker with them of the root of the fatness of the olive tree;‭ ‭glory not over the branches: but if thou gloriest, it is not thou that bearest the root, but the root thee.‭ Thou wilt say then, Branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in.‭ Well; by their unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by thy faith. Be not highminded, but fear:‭ for if God spared not the natural branches, neither will he spare thee.‭ Behold then the goodness and severity of God: toward them that fell, severity; but toward thee, God’s goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.‭ And they also, if they continue not in their unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to ‭graft‭ them in again.‭ For if thou wast cut out of that which is by nature a wild olive tree, and wast grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree; how much more shall these, which are the natural ‭branches‭, be grafted into their own olive tree?‭”

The point of adoption and then be able to cut us off, is the same reason that he raised up the tribes of Israel, and then cut them off: disobedience. If we are disobedient, we receive punishment, but if we become obedient, we receive reward.

Maintaining salvation used to be the sacrifices in the Law of Moses, which were literal blood sacrifices. We are not being like the old priests, because we don’t offer blood sacrifices for sin anymore. We still have to make sure we are obedient and do not get cut off. If we sin, we no longer have to make a blood sacrifice to God, we just have to confess and repent or our sins. 1 John 1:9 “If we confess our sins, he is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.‭” John 2:1 “My little children, these things write I unto you that ye may not sin. And if any man sin, we have an ‭Advocate‭ with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:‭”

I find that salvation is through obedience, and obeying is not a one time thing. I did not obey my dad as a kid just once, and then call myself obedient while refusing to obey his other instructions. I would only be considered obedient if I continually obeyed. If I continued to be disobedient until adulthood, when I reached the age of accountability, I would’ve been kicked out. We then have the story of the prodigal son, who was disobedient, but repented and became obedient, as a reminder that we can return.

We must continually choose obedience lest we be cut off. We always have a means back, we just have to repent and confess. This is what I find to be maintaining salvation, continually choosing obedience.

geminiagentgreen

I don't mean any disrespect to your points, but given that your thesis is still works based, I feel that its best for me to probe with questions as opposed to try and go through them one by one, especially if we're at an impass of interpretations.

Are you a father?

stairinventor

I am not

geminiagentgreen

Then I draw from my own experiences here; I am; I am the proud father of a three year old boy. I adore my son, disobedience and all - not that I love his disobedience, but I love him despite it, and Ilin love, I also correct him, teach him, and see to it that he is safe in what he is doing, even if that means I have to snatch him up by the hand or wholly lift him off the ground.

He is loved unconditionally, he did not choose to be my son, but I did choose to be a father, and as such he is also my responsibility. I need to see to his care, his cleaning, his nourishment, his education, his safety, etc. For all that he can do, he is still so limited in understanding and capability. His only job is to be my son, its my duty to take care of the rest.

Now, before any hypothetical point about him not being a teenager, and adult, or going on to become the next infamous serial killer is possibly made, this fact remains: he will still be my son, and he cannot take that away from himself, will not be able to take that away from himself, and I do not honestly believe that I have it in me to cast him away from me - and how much greater is the love of God our heavenly Father? Indeed, he could even make like his mother and seek to get far away from me, but just like his mother, for all of the anger and anguish that would cause me, it would not cause me to forsake my love for him.

stairinventor

While I cannot empathize with being a father, I raise you a story from my family that I hope you never have to empathize with.

When I was a kid, one of my extended family died in his early thirties, after spending his life disobedient. His father and brothers buried him. From his late teens onward, he spent his time refusing to put in effort into his schooling, getting involved with drugs and crime, going to jail multiple times, ungraciously spurning every attempt to help him. He was given a car, that he crashed within months, he was given a place to stay, with his parents, and an apartment on his own, every time he proceeded to waste the help. he stole from his parents who let him stay as an adult when he had no place, he damaged the apartment he was given.

Eventually, his destructive behavior sent him into a coma, from which he died shortly after.

I reiterate, I hope you never have a similar experience.

I saw his father who hated what he had become, crying at the loss. I saw his brothers who also hated what he had become, carry his casket.

Young me, through my own eyes and influenced by the perspective of my parents, saw what happens when you sow and reap disobedience. My own parents said that he should've been cut off from help way sooner, because you cannot help someone who refuses to help themselves.

In 1st Corinthians 5, the man who had his stepmother as a wife was expelled from the church. Paul said in verses 3-5 "For I verily, being absent in body but present in spirit, have already as though I were present judged him that hath so wrought this thing, in the name of our Lord Jesus, ye being gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus, to deliver such a one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus."

In 2nd Corinthians 2, Paul addressed the issue again, stating in verses 6-8 "Sufficient to such a one is this punishment which was inflicted by the many; so that contrariwise ye should rather forgive him and comfort him, lest by any means such a one should be swallowed up with his overmuch sorrow. Wherefore I beseech you to confirm your love toward him."

7:10, "For godly sorrow worketh repentance unto salvation, a repentance which bringeth no regret: but the sorrow of the world worketh death."

It was this same reason that God in the old testament times, would bless the Israelites when they did good, and would deliver them into captivity when they did evil. He required repentance from their evil works. Eventually God, "finding fault with them" (Heb 8:8) cut them off and established a new covenant. Like Paul said with the branches, the gentiles were grafted on, and the Israelites could just as well be grafted back on when they continued not in unbelief.

Hebrews 12:7-8 "It is for chastening that ye endure; God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is there whom his father chasteneth not? But if ye are without chastening, whereof all have been made partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons."

If children do wrong, they must be corrected. If they are of the age to be independent, and continue to be disobedient, then they must be cut off. You can't help those who won't help themselves.

geminiagentgreen

That...truly is a sad story, you have my sincere condolences. With that said, I'm still not convinced from the texts. Take Hebrews 8:8, or rather, let's take a look at the text leading up to and then afterwards: the whole of the text is to point out that the new covenant is better than the old, with better promises and with Jesus as our high priest.

The High Priest of a New Covenant

8 Now the main point of what we are saying is this: We do have such a high priest, who sat down at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in heaven, 2 and who serves in the sanctuary, the true tabernacle set up by the Lord, not by a mere human being.

3 Every high priest is appointed to offer both gifts and sacrifices, and so it was necessary for this one also to have something to offer. 4 If he were on earth, he would not be a priest, for there are already priests who offer the gifts prescribed by the law. 5 They serve at a sanctuary that is a copy and shadow of what is in heaven. This is why Moses was warned when he was about to build the tabernacle: “See to it that you make everything according to the pattern shown you on the mountain.” 6 But in fact the ministry Jesus has received is as superior to theirs as the covenant of which he is mediator is superior to the old one, since the new covenant is established on better promises.

7 For if there had been nothing wrong with that first covenant, no place would have been sought for another. 8 But God found fault with the people and said:

“The days are coming, declares the Lord,

when I will make a new covenant

with the people of Israel

and with the people of Judah.

9 It will not be like the covenant

I made with their ancestors

when I took them by the hand

to lead them out of Egypt,

because they did not remain faithful to my covenant,

and I turned away from them,

declares the Lord.

10 This is the covenant I will establish with the people of Israel

after that time, declares the Lord.

I will put my laws in their minds

and write them on their hearts.

I will be their God,

and they will be my people.

11 No longer will they teach their neighbor,

or say to one another, ‘Know the Lord,’

because they will all know me,

from the least of them to the greatest.

12 For I will forgive their wickedness

and will remember their sins no more.”

13 By calling this covenant “new,” he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and outdated will soon disappear.

The Old Covenant with its need for continual sacrifices for the atonement of sins is no more thanks to the once and for all sacrifice of Jesus Christ:

Hebrews 7:27 - "Unlike the other high priests, he does not need to offer sacrifices day after day, first for his own sins, and then for for the sins of the people. He sacrificed for their sins once and for all when he offered himself."

Now, I know you are right that you can't help someone who keeps refusing or abusing your grace, yet God Himself is the reason anyone who is unrighteous becomes righteous in the first place. Romans 3:9-19 covers how no one is righteous, no one seeks God, and that no one is declared righteous in God's sight by the works of the law. Romans 3:21-31, relievedly, goes on to explain that we are made righteous through faith, "justified freely by His grace through the redemption that came by Jesus Christ" (Rom. 3:24). Honestly, I really need to commit to memorizing the whole of Romans...

stairinventor

I don't really see how that addresses what I wrote thus far, because I haven't written anything contrary to Hebrews 8, and I am in agreement that we no longer need to offer the blood sacrifices of the old testament.

I am in agreement about works of the law don't make a man righteous, only through Jesus can one become righteous. I haven't said anything to the contrary. I started out in my first reblog stating this exact thing, quoting Ephesians 2:8-9, and pulling from Hebrews 9 and 10 connecting to Jesus paying the price required by the law. I even said "In other letters, Paul specified ‘works of the law’ because there were teachers trying to say that in order to be a Christian, one must also be a circumcised and obey the law of Moses. Works of the law do not have any ability to erase sins and achieve salvation."

Could you please elaborate on what you're trying to show me with those scriptures?

geminiagentgreen

It's kind of a funny boat we're in, then, because I'm struggling to see how your understanding of the scripture lends to your perspective. What I'm trying to show is that salvation is indeed a one-and-done deal because of God: God is the author of our salvation, the one who calls the dead to life, and the only one capable of providing the perfect sacrifice to make us clean. Through Jesus Christ we are saved, in Jesus Christ we are being saved, and by Jesus Christ are we secured eternally - in accordance with the will of the Father.

That does not mean we are free to do as we please (Romans 6:1-7...and honestly, 6:8-14 as well), but we cannot be lost when in the Lord's hands (John 10:29). For salvation to require our maintenance implies several things:

- man's will can overcome God's will, and so God is undermined.

- salvation does have a merit system, except when it doesn't as in the case of the thief on the cross.

- God is the co-author of our salvation.

- Jesus' once and for all death is moot, for when/if you're forgiven all over again, he'd have to go to that cross and endure the wrath of the Father all over again.

- how much more loving is God than us if He can let us go like that? Isaiah 49:15 gives us insight into the very nature of God: “Can a mother forget the baby at her breast and have no compassion on the child she has borne? Though she may forget, I will not forget you!"

stairinventor

This goes back to a phrasing and definition issue. I feel like I have addressed most of those points with scriptures that you did not address or explain how those scriptures are reconciled with your paradigm.

Man’s will could never overpower God, and my beliefs do not imply this. If God decided to forcefully take over my own body, I could not stop him. If God decided to strike me down, I could not stop him. God has given man the ability to choose for himself the path he will follow.

Salvation is through the grace of Jesus. The initial offer of grace was unmerited, but once we accept the offer, we are to grow in grace (2 Peter 3:18) The same word that grace comes from is also in other instances translated as favor. We grow in favor by doing that which is thankworthy (2 Peter 2:20)

With the thief on the cross, Jesus had the authority on earth to forgive sins. (Matt 9:2-6) This is how the thief on the cross received salvation. When Jesus died, his blood established a new covenant, which gives us a means of forgiveness from sins now that he has ascended. The Law of Moses gave us knowledge of sin, and provided consequences, but no remission. Jesus lived a perfect sinless life under the law, and satisfied the law. He gave us a means to join in his reward and be reconciled with God, and in order to partake of his reward we must follow his commands and remain, and grow in his favor. How is remaining and growing not maintenance? You did not address this when I first mentioned it. There is no more blood sacrifices, we now just have to remain in his grace. God cut off the Israelites because they rejected him, and grafted us in. I quoted Romans 11, where Paul says “if God spared not the natural branches, neither will he spare thee.” We cannot receive salvation at the end if we become disobedient and are cut off after being grafted. You never addressed this verse and how you logically reconcile it with your belief. The idea of once saved always saved promotes dead faith. Faith must be alive and fruitful. You even said similar in your first paragraph responding to me that works are a part of faith. But what need are works if you can’t fall out of favor by refusing them? Someone who is saved can choose to become disobedient, and that grafted branch will be cut off after becoming unfruitful. (John 15:5-6)

Salvation requiring a maintaining of good standing with Jesus, does not at all imply that we are co-authors of salvation. He authored and paved a path for us to follow, if we choose to wander off the path, you then could say that man is trying to author his own salvation, but man is not capable of such a feat.

My belief also does not require that Jesus sacrifice himself again. His once for all sacrifice was perfect, Jesus will receive his glory no matter what we choose to do. Jesus gave us a means to be reconciled with God, and no longer if we sin would we need to make a sacrifice of sanctification. All he would require is for us to confess and repent. If we walk off his path and are in peril, all we need to do is come back to the path. (1 John 1:9) We don’t have to return to the very beginning of the path.

1 John 2:1 “My little children, these things write I unto you that ye may not sin. And ‭if‭ ‭any‭ ‭man‭ sin, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteo

“How much more loving is God than us if he can let us go like that?”

More loving than you realize. With the story of my family member who died young, was it loving of my family to essentially enable him to death? I mentioned 1st and 2nd Corinthians, 1st Cor 5:5 “to deliver such a one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.‭”

2nd Corinthians 7:10 “For ‭godly‭ ‭sorrow‭ worketh repentance unto salvation, ‭a repentance‭ which bringeth no regret: but the sorrow of the world worketh death.‭”

Hebrews 12:7-8 “It is for chastening that ye endure; God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is there whom ‭his‭ father chasteneth not? But if ye are without chastening, whereof all have been made partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.‭”

When Israel was disobedient and delivered into the hands of their enemies, did God ever forget them? Not in the slightest. God delivered them up so they would repent and turn back to him. It is the continued pattern of the old testament. Israelites would prosper because of God, they become arrogant and turn from God, they receive punishment for their disobedience, they repent and turn back to God, and the cycle repeats.

God does deliver us into godly sorrow that works unto repentance. You did not address the scriptures when I first mentioned them, and instead gave me your experience about how you could never cut off your child. I hope you never have to, but if they need the godly sorrow that works unto repentance, I hope you will chasten them properly that they repent and do not end up lost or dead like the man in my family. It is never God that departs from man, but man who departs from God.

I feel like I have addressed your points, addressed the scriptures you have provided, and argued how they logically connect with my beliefs, and how the scriptures you provided do not contradict what I believe, and put forward scriptures of my own which I have argued do not align with your logic. I do not feel that you have responded to my arguments the same level as I have, specifically in addressing and logically explaining how the scriptures I put forward interact with your belief. I feel that you have only reiterated, not addressed my logic and the scriptures I put forward directly.

proteinmom

it's funny how "white supremacy" seems to be "oh i don't think people should be stabbed and raped" or even "hmm maybe it would be nice if everyone had manners" but everyone else walks around with more of an in group bias than white people and it's not (insert race here) supremacy

carnival-phantasm

physicsgoblin

You can want people reformed while also acknowledging that some form of punishment is necessary. Some people do in fact need to be punished. Some people cannot be rehabilitated. That doesn't mean removing their human dignity. You can urge them to center their souls to Christ in hope for eternal salvation while also realizing that they should never again be allowed free access to society at large. "Love the sinner" does not mean "there are no earthly consequences". Nor does it mean to not give justice to those who have been wronged. In fact, we should seek out justice. To not do so in the name of always thinking we can "rehabilitate" everyone is at best foolish and at worst wicked.

physicsgoblin

I think what really gets me is that for most of those really horrific crimes they aren't first time offenders. They usually did something similar and got let off with a slap on the wrist. Then they inflict some hell on some other innocent person before finally being taken seriously. That isn't Christian. It's evil frankly. To allow that is wholly evil. You can argue about why people commit crimes until you are blue in the face but with the really bad stuff I simply do not care anymore. Most people don't rape women so badly they are paralized or murder kids in cold blood. It doesn't matter if you were raised in poverty or you had a hard life or whatever. Don't care. You should never be allowed to go free again, no matter what. Anyone can be redeemed to eternal life with Christ and we should try and help them with that journey but while they are here on earth they have to accept those consequences. Justice is a Christian virtue alongside mercy. And there is nothing merciful about letting someone dangerous go free.