I can't help but see an echo of Ruth and Naomi in Judith and her maid. Ruth following Naomi into the unknown, into danger. Naomi trusting God with the future of her people, Ruth trusting Naomi with the future of herself.
Of course, the comparison can only go so far. Judith's servant was, after all, a servant. To our knowledge, she did not have the same agency Ruth had. She does not get to speak, she never acts on her own, we don't even know her name.
Still, we don't get an indication she was unwilling. That she didn't want to do this. Judith called, and she followed. Judith walked, and she walked with her. Judith did, and she assisted.
Wait, I’m new to the fandom, and I’m confused by that last ask. Why are we supposed to be ignoring Astruc?
Hi! Welcome to the fandom! ^o^ I hope you’re enjoying it here. We’re all nuts. It’s fun.
I tend to ignore Astruc in general when he adds deuterocanon (lore that comes to us not in episodes but from Twitter posts and creator interviews and the like). I always feel like, “That’s very nice. Thank you for sharing, but I’m going to make up my own headcanons because it’s more fun for me that way”. I’m the kind of person who takes canon with a grain of salt (or sugar, depending on what’s necessary; sometimes it needs cumin or chili powder). I feel like deuterocanon isn’t even on the same level of importance as canon, so why get so bent out of shape about it? I’m here to have fun, make friends, and process things by using fictional characters.
Some people don’t like Austruc because he can be mean to the fans. I have no firsthand knowledge of this, but I’m aware that there’s a lot of Austruc salt. I also suspect that he gets cranky because some fans can take things a little too far and sometimes harass him about the show and characters and what they want to happen. They can be very invasive and disrespectful and entitled, so I can see why he would be hostile towards people who make his life hell.
From what I’ve heard, the fans and the creator do not have a good relationship.
You talked about this ages ago, but how would you describe materials put out by the official ML crew, but not show episodes? Concretely, something like "Nathalie, as seen by Gabriel". Is that deuterocanon?
that is exactly what the term "deuterocanon" was designed for
Protestants love to say “you can’t cherry pick Scripture” until it comes to Tobit, Judith, Wisdom of Solomon, Ben Sirach, Baruch and the letters of Jeremiah, 1 and 2 Maccabees, and the rest of Daniel and Esther.
Speaking of the deuterocanon, I love how in Bel and the Dragon, the king is like “okay so maybe that first god I worshiped turned out to be nothing but a trick by my priests, but I’m sure this other god I worship is still totally legit.”
so i finally got around to reading the Quendi and Eldar section of HoME XI and it was interesting enough that I felt like it was worthwhile writing up notes! no particular coherency or structure here, I’m just pulling out bits I like (but sparing you guys the sections on the evolution of various dialects from Primitive Quendian/Common Eldarin since it doesn’t extract well) ^_^
Hence Hekelmar and Hekeldamar [“Home of the Forsaken”], the name in the languages of the loremasters of Aman for Beleriand. It was thought of as a long shoreland beside the sea (cf. Eglamar under Sindarin below).
This is weird. Surely the Noldor…. remember crossing Beleriand? I can only think that maybe “thought of” means like, “in the popular imagination, the Elves left behind in Beleriand are always staring sadly out from the western shore, singing sad songs” or something like that?
As a prefix the form usually used was ava-, the force of which can be observed in avaquétima ‘not to be said, that must not be said’, avanyárima ‘not to be told or related’ as contrasted with úquétima ‘unspeakable’, that is, ‘impossible to say, put into words, or unpronounceable’, únyárima ‘impossible to recount’, sc. because all the facts are not known, or the tale is too long. Compare also Avamanyar ‘those who did not go to Aman, because they would not’ (an equivalent of Avari) with Úamanyar ‘those who did not in the event reach Aman’ (an equivalent of Hekeldi).
Mostly I just think this is neat. I’m enjoying all these careful distinctions between Amanyar and Umanyar and Avari, though.
In the use of the Exiles Quenya naturally came to mean the language of the Ñoldor, developed in Aman, as distinct from other tongues, whether Elvish or not. But the Ñoldor did not forget its connexion with the old word Quendi, and still regarded the name as implying ‘Elvish’, that is the chief Elvish tongue, the noblest, and the one most nearly preserving the ancient character of Elvish speech.
Of course not.
The Teleri had little interest in linguistic lore, which they left to the Ñoldor. They did not regard their language as a ‘dialect’ of Quenya, but called it Lindarin or Lindalambe.
I’m really enjoying how much the Teleri just keep Doing Their Own Thing.
The Elves of Beleriand were isolated, without contact with any other people, Elvish or of other kind; and they were all of one clan and language: Telerin (or Lindarin). Their own language was the only one they ever heard, and they needed no word to distinguish it, nor to distinguish themselves.
[…] By the Sindar anyone dwelling outside Beleriand, or entering their realm from outside, was called a Morben [“Dark-elf”, “Dark-person”]….The Avari thus remained the chief examples of Moerbin. Any individual Avar who joined with or was admitted among the Sindar (it rarely happened) became a Calben [“Light-elf”]; but the Avari in general remained secretive, hostile to the Eldar, and untrustworthy; and they dwelt in hidden places in the deeper woods, or in caves.
Sindarin isolationist paranoia is so charmingly fucked-up. <3 “We’re not going to let you into Doriath, stay away from us,” “the Avari are so secretive and hostile wow”. Wowwww.
But the form Golodh seems to have been phonetically unpleasant to the Ñoldor. The name was, moreover, chiefly used by those who wished to mark the difference between the Ñoldor and the Sindar, and to ignore the dwelling of the Ñoldor in Aman which might give them a claim to superiority.
I’m not copying out the purely linguistic bits but this whole section is basically a 50:50 ratio of linguistics to terse notes about Elves sneering at each other. This is turning out to be a really worthwhile read.
The Ñoldor indeed asserted that most of the ‘Teleri’ were at heart Avari, and that only the Eglain [Círdan’s people] really regretted being left in Beleriand.
Love you Noldor never stop <3
The first Avari that the Eldar met again in Beleriand seem to have claimed to be Tatyar, who acknowledged their kinship with the Exiles, though there is no record of their actually using the name Ñoldo in any recognizable Avarin form. They were actually unfriendly to the Ñoldor, and jealous of their more exalted kin, whom they accused of arrogance.
1. That’s super interesting that the Avari in Beleriand were more closely related to the Noldor than the Sindar! I love an excuse for some nice complicated cultural tensions.
2. Wait, this implies Eöl’s one of the Tatyarin Avari. Eöl is obviously Tatyar. Godddd.
This ill-feeling descended in part from the bitterness of the Debate before the March of the Eldar began, and was no doubt later increased by the machinations of Morgoth; but it also throws some light upon the temperament of the Ñoldor in general, and Fëanor in particular. Indeed the Teleri on their side asserted that most of the Ñoldor in Aman itself were in heart Avari, and returned to Middle-earth when they discovered their mistake; they needed room to quarrel in.
a;fn;gngn <333333
For in contrast the Lindarin elements in the western Avari were friendly to the Eldar, and willing to learn from them; and so close was the feeling of kinship between the remnants of the Sindar, the Nandor, and the Lindarin Avari, that later in Eriador and the Vale of Anduin they often became merged together.
Lothlórien!! Okay, not just Lothlorien, but it’s so interesting and logical for Galadriel to end up there – someone both Lindarin and Noldorin (and I wonder if that would have been read at all as Tatyarin? but then she’s a little Vanyarin too) married to a Sindarin husband. But I always love seeing reiterated that – okay, they mingle, but the Umanyar are not homogenous any more than the Amanyar <3
In [Sindarin] the word gûl (equivalent of Q ñóle) had less laudatory associations, being used mostly of secret knowledge, especially such as possessed by artificers who made wonderful things; and the word became further darkened by its frequent use in the compound morgul ‘black arts’, applied to the delusory or perilous arts and knowledge derived from Morgoth. Those indeed among the Sindar who were unfriendly to the Ñoldor attributed their supremacy in the arts and lore to their learning from Melkor-Morgoth.
I love this kind of free-associatory etymological slander. Also as always the double-edged and dangerous nature of technology and lore.
This name they first applied to the Nandor that came into Eastern Beleriand; but this people still called themselves by the old clan-name *Lindai, which had at that time taken the form Lindi in their tongue….These names were however later replaced among the Sindar by the name ‘Green-elves’, at least as far as the inhabitants of Ossiriand were concerned; for they withdrew themselves and took as little part in the strife with Morgoth as they could.
Just noting this to help me keep track of the whole Teleri-Lindai / Nandor-Lindi-Laegrim…. thing.
The Valar, therefore, learned Quenya by their own choice, for pleasure as well as for communication; and it seems clear that they preferred that the Eldar should make new words of their own style, or should translate the meanings of names into fair Eldarin forms, rather than [that] they should retain the Valarin words or adapt them to Quenya (a process that in most cases did justice to neither tongue).
I’d actually like to know more about Valarin but this is still really cute.
No Elf of any kind ever sided with Morgoth of free will, though under torture or the stress of great fear, or deluded by lies, they might obey his commands…The ‘Dark-elves’, however, often were hostile, and even treacherous, in their dealings with the Sindar and Ñoldor; and if they fought, as they did when themselves assailed by the Orcs, they never took any open part in the war on the side of the Celbin. They were, it seems, filled with an inherited bitterness against the Eldar, whom they regarded as deserters of their kin, and in Beleriand this feeling was increased by envy (especially of the Amanyar) and by resentment of their lordliness.
I normally try not to take the “unreliable narrator” thing too far but I have to wonder from whose perspective this is being written. The “deserters of their kin” thing is an interesting snippet of the Avari’s own perspective, though.
Eöl was a Mornedhel, and is said to have belonged to the Second Clan
CALLED IT.
It is said also that the folk of the North were clad much in grey, especially after the return of Morgoth when secrecy became needed; and the Mithrim had an art of weaving a grey cloth that made its wearers almost invisible in shadowy places or in a stony land.
The Elven-cloaks Galadriel weaves for the Fellowship! I wonder if she learned it directly from the Mithrim or if it was a more indirect transmission?
Asking as a protestant Christian whose interested in the Deuterocanon. Is it true that Tobit and Judith are historical novellas or parables, while the Maccabees books are completely historical? Or are all four historical?
I truly can’t say, and I strongly encourage you to speak to someone more knowledgeable in this area. I will say this: the story of Joan of Arc is about the wildest story I have ever heard, and I would certainly have dismissed it as pious legend of the most romantic sort, were it not for extensive documentation of her trial.
So, personally, I’m always a little hesitant to jump to the “inspired fiction” conclusion; it may cover the bases, but it seems almost too easy.
