#first men

[thewatcher0nthewall]

998th Lord Commander of the Night's Watch

[spacerockfloater]

“The Targaryens/ Valyrians are not white supremacists and can’t be compared to European Colonisers!”

Oh? My bad then. I must have them confused with some other white folks who thought their appearance made them superior, brought whole continents to heel, exploited the lands of others for their own greed, destroyed whole civilizations and enslaved vulnerable people who unfortunately lacked the advanced weapons of mass destruction they possessed.

“Well, the Andals and the First Men were also colonisers, so they deserved it!”

No way! Are you actually telling me that every race has a history of violence because human nature itself is corrupt and we’re no better than animals fighting for their place on this earth? That’s so crazy and original. By the way, are you saying that people deserved to get colonised and enslaved because they were fighting other people in order to survive? Are you suggesting these “savages” should have been contained by the righteous white folks who came there to better their lives? Not to mention that the Andals and the First Men came to Westeros 12,000 and 6,000 years ago respectively, while the Targaryens attacked Westeros barely 130 years ago (literally just 3 - 4 generations) from the Dance of the Dragons? So are you comparing the morality of the people who migrated here, who were so primitive that barely even possessed weapons of steel, with that of the most advanced civilization ever built in the ASOIAF universe? That’s so interesting! It’s almost as if the Andals and the First Men didn’t know any better until it was too late and were trying to find a land that could accommodate their millions of people, so they were essentially fighting for survival, whereas the Targaryens who came from a race that had evolved philosophically, politically, academically and technologically wise, possessed enough wealth and land to sustain their little family, yet still chose to go to war against the land that nurtured them out of pure greed! Hmmm. Do you also believe that the Greeks had it coming when they were enslaved by the Ottomans and should just let go of the past because it’s been so long since they regained their freedom (barely 200 years ago btw, after 4 centuries of slavery), because their Ancient Ancestral Tribes migrated to Greece and conquered the land 3,500 years ago, a little after the age of bronze? No? Then you might see why that kind thinking is flawed.

Stop defending these inbred bastards with your full chest. We get it. They look badass. We all have a fave war criminal but all of the Targs need to be put to the sword, along with their fucking lizards. Purposely denying the parallels between the Targaryens/ Valyrians and the Colonisers/ Conquerors of our world screams white saviour complex.

[pessimisticpigeonsworld]

I've said it before, I'll say it again: I can't fucking stand the double standards of this fandom. Everytime I see someone bitch about how the Targaryens are "colonizers" I want to bash my brains out. And these posts always include the op talking about how great the Starks are and how they do no fucking wrong.

Like where are these people's media comprehension???? Do they know the basic definitions of things? Add to that the fact that most of these people also constantly call Dany a "white savior". Like literally read a dictionary and try actually reading the books!

I just saw a post where someone was saying that they hate the idea of Dany being the Prince that was Promised because her ancestors were colonizers and she's a white savior.

Instead, they wanted Jon Snow, who, you know, doesn't have any colonizer ancestry. Because the Starks were perfect angels, who took control of the North by asking nicely. And the First Men were gifted Westeros by the Children of the Forest when they arrived because they were all such good friends.

Literally anyone who read ASOIAF (and has the smallest bit of media comprehension) knows that that's the farthest thing from the truth.

The First Men were colonizers who waged outright war with the CotF for thousands of years and desecrated their sacred places. Yes, eventually they made the Pact, but that only resulted in the CotF being slowly pushed out of Westeros completely and they were eventually fully walled out of their ancestral land. They're literally dying out now, as Leaf explains to Bran in ADWD.

Now, doesn't that sound familiar? To me, that sounds an awful lot like what the European colonies did to the Indigenous peoples of the Americas. Of course it's similar, GRRM is heavily inspired by history.

The Targaryens are conquerors, not colonizers. By the time of the Conquest, they have lived in Westeros for hundreds of years. The Conquerors, their parents, and grandparents were all born and raised on Dragonstone in Westeros.

The Targaryens are a Westerosi house, just like the Starks, Martells, and Hightowers. The only difference between all these houses is the timing of their arrival in Westeros. What exactly are the implications of this belief?

And obviously Dany isn't a white savior. Essos is a very diverse continent, so is their slave system. It's class based, not race based. A large portion of the Essosi slaves looked like Dany because they were of Valyrian descent. The slaves span every ethnicity, why is that so difficult to understand? Not only do the books themselves describe the ethnicity of many of the slaves, GRRM himself came out and debunked this interpretation!

I understand not being comfortable with this kind of story to an extent. The concept of liberation efforts has been tainted by the white savior trope. However, one's personal preferences don't equal the actual content of the story!

I think the thing that pisses me off the most about people who take these stances in the ASOIAF fandom is their pseudo-intellectualism.

Each person who writes these posts believes they have better media comprehension and even superior morality than everyone else. They misapply definitions of extremely damaging ideas so smugly. They believe they are correcting the views of other readers and GRRM himself, and as such, refuse to see how gravely mistaken they are. It's as concerning as it is infuriating.

[agentrouka-blog]

Hello!

Did the Starks massacre an entire race of ppl and act like they have a right to the land they’re apparently not native to? And does the make them worse than the targaryens because they at least didn’t “bring a race to extinction”?

And sorry in advance if it seems nonsensical, I didn’t read the books nor remember the history shown in the tv show 😅. And I saw someone comment this, and so wanted to ask if that was true 😅.

Wow. Is someone trying to pin the circumstances of the Children of the Forest entirely on House Stark alone (Andals, who? Other First Men, when? Pact, what? All migration is evil, why?) or are they projecting things onto the free folk that are reflective of real world history but not so much rooted in the books?

House Stark emerged as a dominant force among the First Men descendents in the North in very unglamorously oldfashioned wars like every other Kindgdom in Westeros. Over the course of millenia. But that Wall wasn't built to subjugate the free folk nor were those 19 castles with 19 gates built into it later to keep the free folk from crossing South. (After they probably deliberately crossed North en masse in the first place.) The most remote and least integrated group of free folk still speaks the Old Tongue and lives in a deeply hierarchical society much like the people South of the Wall, including hereditary rule. Whatever the free folk are, they are not a smooth equivalent to displaced and oppressed natives, and the animosity between them and "Southerners" has a long and complex history. They were the same people not that long ago.

As for the Children of the Forest, that would be a gross misrepresentation, as well. It was a war between peoples triggered by the migration of the First Men into Westeros. (Given that we have a much less well documented presence of COTF in Essos, they too migrated at some point. The audacity!) They made peace and coexisted for a long time, practicing cultural exchange. The First Men are not invaders in Westeros at this point. They lay claim to the land because they too are part of it. Their culture, religion and identity is tied to the land specifically, they emerged as a distinct group in Westeros, their own culture struggled in conflict with the violent invasion of the Andals (themselves refugees), who at this point have also been settled there for millenia, but had an even more destructive impact on the COTF than the First Men.

The history is Westeros is a history of violent conflict in migration waves and power struggles. There were groups that lost out big, no lie. There is simmering resentment and unaddressed grievances all over. (And credible darkness in old gods, as well.) There's no need to paint over that. That's the point of their whole story in the first place! But that wasn't House Stark, that was Westeros.

And what it was not is a vast empire subjugated by a small group based on (literal) superior fire power, practicing brutal slavery, blood supremacy and a kind of blood magic so profoundly destructive it's likely tied to the, you know, anihilation of their entire peninsula. Which happened just 400 years ago? We have absolutely no idea what peoples they may have brought to extinction! How many ended their lives in their mines. They triggered the Andal invasion into Westeros, though. They triggered the migration of the Rhoynar. That's vast displacement. Just to escape them. Braavos was founded by escaped slaves. Essos is marked in every corner by the violent impact of the Valyrian empire and its effects in turn changed Westeros forever multiple times.

That history of genuine oppression is not only on the Targaryens, either, but it's the legacy they actively lay claim to every time they recall "the blood of old Valyria" like it's a badge of honor. And it's a legacy they actively replicated in Westeros, small-scale.

Trying to "WhatabouttheStarks!" to create some kind of equivalency to that? Ridiculous.

[spirit-meets-the-b0ne]

Jon Snow and the torch of Mance Rayder: A song of Ice and Fire.

I can no longer find the post I once saw breaking down how Jon inheriting Mance's kingdom makes for the most logical (and imo most satisfying) ending for Jon. If anyone can find it please send it to me!

In the meantime let's break down some of the evidence and parallels I see for Jon carrying the torch of Mance Rayder and leading the Free Folk into the future beyond the Long Night. Jon may very well succeed in fulfilling both of his parents' respective dreams but he will likely be the successor of another man's kingdom.

When I went back to some texts I kept finding my brain was always circling back to these parallels between Jon/Rhaegar/Ned/Mance as well as the string of fate that seems to running through them.

Let's start with Jon's initial introduction to Mance:

"A pregnant woman stood over a brazier cooking a brace of hens, while a grey-haired man in a tattered cloak of black and red sat crosslegged on a pillow, playing a lute and singing…"

Now to me this in and of itself is HUGE. This meeting (which is not Mance's first time meeting Jon technically) has a parallel directly to Rhaegar. Dany's vision in the House of the Undying goes as follows:

The man had her brother’s hair, but he was taller, and his eyes were a dark indigo rather than lilac. “Aegon,” he said to a woman nursing a newborn babe in a great wooden bed. “What better name for a king?” “Will you make a song for him?” the woman asked. “He has a song,” the man replied. “He is the prince that was promised, and his is the song of ice and fire.” He looked up when he said it and his eyes met Dany’s, and it seemed as if he saw her standing there beyond the door. “There must be one more,” he said, though whether he was speaking to her or the woman in the bed she could not say. “The dragon has three heads.” He went to the window seat, picked up a harp, and ran his fingers lightly over its silvery strings.

Mance is known for wearing his black and red cloak, the same colors as house Targaryen and both him and Rhaegar play string instruments. Mance's hair at this point is also turning white funny enough. This just seems too much of a coincidence to be dismissed. Mance is also accompanied by his pregnant wife whereas Dany sees Rhaegar with his wife shortly after the birth of her nephew.

Which brings me to another revelation in the same meeting between Jon and Mance. They both share blood of the First Men:

“Some say it was for a crown. Some say for a woman. Others that you had the wildling blood.” “The wildling blood is the blood of the First Men, the same blood that flows in the veins of the Starks." 

I do find this important because as far as the way the Free Folk live, this is in direct opposition to the way of Westerosi culture. Blood of the First Men is something that unites them and yet does not govern them. Jon being a bastard isn't as great of a hangup for them, he's still got the blood of the First Men, which of course has been associated with magic, dw we'll get back to that. More than anything else, Mance recognizes the important aspect of Jon's lineage, more so than his illegitimacy. As Mance himself says much later in ADWD:

"Free folk don't follow names, or little cloth animals sewn on a tunic. They won't dance for coins, they don't care how you style yourself or what that chain of office means or who your grandsire was. They follow strength. They follow the man"

Now this exchange between Jon and Mance reminds me of the same exact advice that Maester Aemon gives Jon before he departs and obviously has HUGE implications to Jon's death/resurrection:

Allow me to give my lord one last piece of counsel, the same counsel that I once gave my brother when we parted for the last time. He was three-and-thirty when the Great Council chose him to mount the Iron Throne. A man grown with sons of his own, yet in some ways still a boy. Egg had an innocence to him, a sweetness we all loved. Kill the boy within you, I told him the day I took ship for the Wall. It takes a man to rule. An Aegon, not an Egg. Kill the boy and let the man be born. You are half the age that Egg was, and your own burden is a crueler one, I fear. You will have little joy of your command, but I think you have the strength in you to do the things that must be done. Kill the boy, Jon Snow. Winter is almost upon us. Kill the boy and let the man be born."

Kill the boy and let the man be born (one of the hardest lines GRRM ever wrote tbh) and now we know exactly what that set up will lead to. More than that, the man Jon will be must also become a man the Free folk will follow. The man that Mance made himself. Jon's choice ultimately is in favor of the Free folk and their collective survival which will be one of the stepping stones to Jon being their leader.

While it's hard to extrapolate on exactly how it's going to go, we know a few key things have been set up in ADWD already, the biggest being Jon's death and resurrection. The second being, Mance going south and allegedly being held captive by the Boltons. There's a number of ways that could play out, but either way I believe it's going to end with Mance's death. If Mance (who has been capable of sneaking in and out of Winterfell before) makes it out alive and rejoins Jon and the FF in Castle Black he will undoubtedly be clued in on what happened. While the show tries very hard to keep things a secret, we know that Mance has already faked his own death and worked with Melisandre and her magic so he's certainly less likely to be fooled. Which could lead to another parallel that I would love to see: Qhorin Halfhand sacrifices himself to assure Jon's mission/Mace will sacrifice himself to Jon (rather than kneel) to assure that Jon can lead the Free folk forward.

And as much as a deep and spiritual hater I am of the show, if there's even a grain of truth to Jon ending up back north of the wall with the Free Folk that has some very heavy implications. Which brings me to my conclusion, which is that if Jon does succeed against the Long Night and the Others - he will have also fulfilled the dreams of both his parents and will walk the path his "father" Ned Stark had also tread:

Jon will fulfill the prophecy Rhaegar was chasing: Jon will help stop the Long Night and his will be the song of ice and fire alongside Dany and her dragons. Jon will fulfill Lyanna's dream of being free, which seems central to her character and her plot. Lyanna was never Rhaegar's prisoner, her escape was likely the freest she ever was as the only daughter among her brothers and especially in her engagement to Robert which she was openly protesting. Jon will be freed likewise of his oaths to the NW and free of his societal burdens as a bastard among the Free Folk. Jon will most likely go to great lengths to save and raise the son of Mance and Dalla just as Ned had done for him and it would be glorious to see the parallel drawn of Mance's dying wish to Jon to mirror that which Lyanna made Ned swear. Even if Mance hates Jon in the present there's the allusion made by Melisandre in ADWD:

"Our false king has a prickly manner,” Melisandre told Jon Snow, “but he will not betray you. We hold his son, remember. And he owes you his very life.”

I believe there's a good chance that Jon will end up being the one to have to make the sacrifice whether it be his own child (which I find unlikely as I myself agree with many of the fans who believe Jon after his resurrection will not be able to reproduce) or Mance's son, both of whom WOULD carry the blood of the First Men. Jumping off this incredible theory by @cbrownjc I definitely see Jon's story ultimately being decided over this conflict.

Jon will have to eventually answer for switching Gilly and Mance's babies but it could likely put him in the position to either sacrifice that child for another lasting peace with the Others OR if him and Dany do end up defying all odds and having a child they'll be forced to sacrifice that child being "the prince/princess that was promised."

I personally find it far more likely that Jon won't be able to do that, instead he'll have to find a way with Dany to defeat the Long Night for good and break the promise with the Others all together. And if Jon can't have children but he's gone through such lengths to save Mance's son then why would he not spend the rest of his life dedicated to raising and protecting that kid. "The Prince That Was Promised" could be a promise Jon makes to Mance and saving his "prince-beyond-the-wall" would be a MAJOR act of subversion which GRRM loves. (I personally find the subversion of the PTWP being Dany far more likely because of the gender/language thing but with the idea of neither Jon nor Dany being the child of prophecy it could be Mance's son). Which still ultimately leads Jon to same place as the show dumps him - going up to the lands north of the wall and living with the Free Folk. Either way, it feels a lot more satisfying if Jon ends up taking up Mance's torch as leader of the Free Folk under a united cause (instead of survival its now rebuilding) and raising Mance's son as his own.

[syntheden-2]

[houseofice]

War of the First Men & the Children of the Forest

Other events

The war of the First Men and the Children of the Forest was a centuries-long conflict between the non-human Children of the Forest and the First Men who migrated to Westeros twelve thousand years ago.

History

Prelude

The vast continent of Westeros was originally inhabited by a diminutive non-human race known as the Children of the Forest. Aboriginal and few in number, they were nonetheless very woodcrafty and their wise men wielded powerful magic abilities.

Twelve thousand years ago the first humans to live on Westeros, known as the First Men, migrated to Westeros from the eastern continent of Essos, across a land bridge known as the Arm of Dorne. The arrival of the First Men marked the beginning of the “Dawn Age” of Westeros.

War

The First Men began encroaching on the forests of the Children, cutting and clearing land to use for agriculture. The First Men cut down the Children’s sacred weirwood trees, infuriating them. The Children fought back against the tide of the First Men’s migration throughout Westeros, in a series of conflicts lasting two thousand years.

The Children of the Forest were never numerous, and they did not possess much technology, wielding blades and arrowheads made out of obsidian stone, while their woven bark armors were no match for the First Men’s bronze weapons. This gave men the advantage in their fight, and made many of the Children believe that they might become extinct under the onslaught. The Children remained fierce fighters who knew their woods well and they did possess one advantage that men knew nothing of: magic. Using these powers, they unleashed beasts of all kinds against the First Men, but even that was not enough to turn the tide.

The greenseers of the Children used their powerful magic to shatter the Arm of Dorne, and the ocean rose up and swallowed most of the land bridge. The few remnants became an island chain between Westeros and Essos known as the Stepstones. The destruction of the Arm of Dorne ultimately did not stop the advance of the First Men.

As the First Men moved up north, the Children attempted once again to use the ocean to halt their advance. They called upon the “hammer of waters” to shatter the Neck and break the continent in two. The Children only succeeded in flooding the land, filling it with bogs and swamps, but not enough to submerge it beneath the sea.

At some point during the conflict, a group of Children decided on a new deterrent against the advancing First Men. Utilizing powerful, untested magic, the Children captured a First Man to utilize him in the creation of the first White Walker. The Children would utilize these powerful now former-humans in the war to turn the tide. At some point before or after the conclusion with the Pact, the White Walkers broke free from the control of the Children and disappeared into the Land of Always Winter.

The Pact

After two thousand years of conflict, the two sides had fought to a standstill. The two races tired of the centuries of bloodshed, and representatives of both groups came together on an island in the middle of a great lake in central Westeros, known as Gods Eye. There they forged a lasting peace known as the Pact: the open lands were granted to humanity, while the deep forests were to remain the undisturbed domain of the Children. The First Men were forbidden from ever cutting down a sacred weirwood tree again. To commemorate the Pact, the Children carved a face into every weirwood tree on the island (making each a heart tree) and forever after the island has been known as the Isle of Faces.

The peace between the two races would endure another four thousand years, even enduring the invasion of the White Walkers two thousand years later. Six thousand years ago the Andals invaded Westeros, conquering the First Men and killing the Children of the Forest wherever they encountered them, and converted most of the people of Westeros into the religion of the Faith of the Seven.