Discover Top Posts Tagged with #my replies

Slides you a $20 bill and some uj cake.

So bit of a Manda-lore question.

Has it ever been defined exactly in-universe what exactly an Ori'ramikade/supercommando is?

Like it seems to be a social class/standing body of some distinction with their commander being the Mandalore with Boba using them as kind of a Huscarl/bodyguard unit in Legacy of the Force. Jaster Mereel calls his modernized take on the old Canons of Honor the Supercommando Codex.

There's an implication that all the Mandalorian Protectors under Spar and then Fenn are Supercommandos but not all the supercommandos are Protectors. The supercommandos in the Death Watch seem to be a standing body within the group that stayed with Maul when the group split.

I recall on the old Force.net Karen Traviss had a post saying that Kal and Vau were not supercommandos and that the number of Mandos who were was adjusted down was too high and none of the cuy'val dar are explicitly named as such either.

Am I missing some source that breaks it down?

*takes the money and munched the uj cake* Thanks!

I’m afraid this issue has never been fully explained and the idea of Protectors, Supercommandos and correlation between them changed over time, depending on the writer. There are, however, some repeating patterns worth talking about that may help to explain the matter.

Originally, Mandalorian Supercommando was introduced in 1980 as concept art for The Empire Strikes Back that was ultimately redefined as Bounty Hunter Boba Fett. The first official mention in source material happened in Star Wars #68 The Search Begins released in 1983. We learned about Supercommandos-Protectors from Fenn Shysa, who was once part of said group:

--long years ago, when I was part of a group o’ Supercommandos charged with the ultimate protection o’ Mandalore. It was a job I was proud of. But when Palpatine made his move to set up a Galactic Empire, the government o’ Mandalore sent us inta the Clone Wars on the Emperor’s side [...]. At any rate, the war was finally won - but at a terrible cost. Of two hundred an’ twelve Mandalorian Protectors what went inta battle, only three survived.

The names Supercommandos and Protectors were used simultaneously here, and according to Fenn Shysa,

Supercommandos/Protectors had military structures (commanding officer)

the government of Mandalore controlled said military organization.

Here, we need to remember that Mandalore as a title for sole leader wasn’t introduced yet - I believe Mandalore the Indomitable was chronology-wise the first officially established Mandalorian ruler (The Sith War, 1995). At the moment of Marvel’s Star Wars comics series, there is little information about what kind of government Mandalore had.

However, this title(s) applies only to Fenn Shysa, Tobbi Dala and Boba Fett. During imperial occupation, Fenn Shysa’s people are called outlaws or outlaw band, and they are a Mandalorian resistance movement. Thus we can assume not all Mandalorians and freed slaves who joined Fenn Shysa’s band were necessarily soldiers or warriors originally.

Another important detail, Fenn (beside the introduction scene) and his friend, Tobbi Dala do not call themselves Supercommandos nor were called as such by their enemy - Suprema called both men great warriors, Fenn Shysa’s men the outlaws.

Tobbi Dala however put importance on the “Protector” part

Suprema: You’re a fool Dala, if you think that armor will save your life! Tobbi Dala: Me life was gone *koff* when ya pulled that trigger, Suprema. But this here uniform… well… it marks me fer a Mandalorian Protector. A-an’ I think it’s only fittin *k-koff* that I wear it… while protectin’! [Star Wars #69: Death in the City of Bones]

Thus I assume the correct name for a military branch under the government tasked with protection of Mandalore should be Mandalorian Protectors, while title of Supercommandos - apart from the reference to the original concept - was just Fenn’s simplest way to explain Leia (and readers) who he was before and during Clone Wars. Considering that Protectors had a legal and important job, it makes sense that only the best soldiers were recruited for it.

So, Mandalorian Protectors (and possibly its branch, the Journeyman Protectors?) were tied to government structures, while Supercommandos may be a simplified term that gives Leia (and us) the sense how good they were within said military-political structures. Which is understandable, as comics are a limited medium and sometimes because of said limitation authors just tell us things we must take for granted as part of worldbuilding.

But then the Prequels happened and with it came retcon(s). Jango Fett: Open Seasons (2002) introduced into lore the conflict between Jaster Mereel’s True Mandalorians and Tor Vizsla’s Death Watch. The original comics did not focus on the mentioned conflict beyond setting it as background for Jango Fett’s backstory, however tie-in materials tried to connect the newest events with the oldest take on Mandalorians and by doing so, the idea of Supercommandos/Protectors has changed from being officially connected to the government of Mandalore to followers of Jaster Mereel’s reforms or become a mix of those ideas.

So we have:

The History of the Mandalorians (2005)

Jaster Mereel, a deeply pious human and extraordinary soldier, immediately noticed a deep-seated dissatisfaction in the hearts of many hard-boiled Mandalorian. As a former Journeyman Protector, Mereel brought a strong ethic that extended far beyond the limited Mandalorian ideology of fighting for credits. His prowess in combat earned him the respect of his peers, and when Mereel fought tooth-and-nail to become reigning Mandalore and unite the disparate clans, his ideals became the foundation for a new creed: the supercommando Codex. Not all agreed with Mereel’s ideas, however. Many bloodthirsty and amoral Mandalorians resented him, having enjoyed the unaccountability of their mercenary lifestyles. Among them was the soldier Vizsla, who gathered the dissenters into a splinter group, the Mandalorian Death Watch. Mereel’s suppercommandos, in turn, recast themselves as the True Mandalorians, and total war ensued.

Jango died as the Clone Wars began, but thanks to one of his clones, the Mandalorian tradition survived. Alpha-02, an aberrant ARC trooper the Kaminoans failed to recondition, became obsessed with rebuilding Mandalorian supercommandos. Returning to Mandalore, he recruited an army of 200 soldiers from local police units, and another dozen came from the unlikeliest source - former Death Watchmen. Near the Clone Wars' climax, these new Mandalorian Protectors helped Mandalore's government seize MandalMotors' facilities in the capital of Keldabe for Separatist use. Squads of Mandalorian supercommandos carried out covert missions for the Confederacy of Independent Systems. Following the death of prominent Separatist commander, the Mandalorian Protectors armed with Battle Legionnaire droid army executed multiple devastating blitzkriegs on Republic targets, including Kamino and New Bornalex.

[...] When Dala gave his life to rid Mandalore of Imperials, Shysa realized that the time to revive the Mandalorian supercommandos had come. Under Shysa as Mandalore, the Protectors flourished. They assisted the Alliance of Free Planets in defending Known Space from Nagai and Tof invanders, and helped deliver the crucial blow in the New Republic's campaign against Lord Shadowspawn. For decades, however, the Protectors served chiefly as guardians of the Mandalore sector until the Yuuzhan Vong Invasion. Led now by the former bounty hunter Boba Fett, the Mandalorian Protectors returned conditionally to their mercenary ways for a time (something even Fenn Shysa advocated on occasion, such as in the race for the Tessent idol) before committing themselves unilaterally to defending the galaxy from Vong occupation.

The New Essential Guide to Droids (2006)

The Mandalorian Protectors arose midway through the Clone Wars, when a faulty clone of Jango Fett named Alph-02 recruited a force of Separatist-allied shock troopers from the ranks of Mandalore police units and the Death Watch. Only 212 strong, the Protectors drew upon Mandalorian tradition to boost their ranks.

The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia (2008)

From Jaster Mereel’s Entry (vol. 2):

[…] When Mereel was elected the leader of the Mandalorian Mercs, it was believed that Vizsla decided to split off from the group and form the Death Watch. In response, Mereel declared that his followers were the True Mandalorians. Vizsla tried to destroy the True Mandalorians on Concord Dawn, but Mereel and a small force managed to survive, thanks in part to the efforts of a young Jango Fett. The Mandalorians regrouped, but Mereel felt pressure from hard-liners like Montross to eliminate the Death Watch and reestablish the superiority of the Mandalorians. It was during this time that he created the Codex, the new tenets and canons of supercommandos who followed him into battle. He also appointed Jango Fett as his choice to succeed him as Mand'alor.

Supercommando Codex Entry (vol. 3):

Supercommando Codex - This was the name used by Jaster Mereel to describe the set of tenets and canons that he developed to oversee the new Mandalorian Mercs several decades before the onset of the Clone Wars. The codex was created to define the rules and roles of his new supercommandos, in an effort to unite the disparate clans of Mandalorian Mercs under a single leader. Although many followers of the Mandalorian codes agreed with Jaster and the codex, many others - Vizsla and Montross among them - broke away from his band in protest over the new rules.

Galaxy at War (2009)

The history of the Mandalorians encompasses tens of thousands of years, but the Mandalorians Protectors burned brightly for only a few decades. Embodying the highest ideals of their warrior culture, the Protectors were the antidote for a people who had often slipped into the relative morality of mercenaries. The roots of the Protectors stretch back to Jaster Mereel’s formation of the Mandalorian Supercommandos (Mando Ori'ramikade). During the Mandalorian Civil War of 60-34 BBY, the Protectors’ ranks were split into two factions: the rebellious Death Watch and the reformist True Mandalorians of Mereel and Jango Fett. The True Mandalorians met their end at the Battle of Galidraan, but their moral teaching, embodied in the Supercommando Codex, inspired many back on Mandalore.

The term Ori’ramikad (supercommando) was included in Karen Traviss’ mando’a dictionary (~2009) as Mandalorian designation of elite special forces

but it does not explain how Mandalorian earned such a title or who actually can officially grant it. The use of “elite special forces” gives the impression a military hierarchy is involved. Which leads us back to the connection to Mandalore and/or the Mandalorian government.

The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia (2008) does not help much to erase the confusion, as term ori’kamikad redirect us to Mandalorian shock troopers:

Mandalorian shock troopers - supercommando warriors who followed the Canons of Honor of the ancient Mandalorians

so we again have connection to warriors following a codex rather than Mandalorian’s fighting skills per se or hierarchy in established political-military structures, for Mandalorian shock troopers is just another name for Mandalorians used by The History of the Mandalorians article - both to ancient and modern Mandalorians.

On one hand, we have books like Luke Skywalker and Shadows of Mindor (2008), where Fenn Shysa is seen (and sees himself) first and foremost as part of Mandalorian Protectors

Lando Calrissian, unlike his old buddy Han, had hung on to his general's commission. He was currently the director of Special Operations, a fancy-sounding title that apparently involved, today, being a highly decorated chauffeur. He was on his way back from Mandalorian Space, where he had gone to corral the one guy in the galaxy Lando claimed could change the alleged minds of these commandos: the Big Boss of the Mandalorian Protectors and self-styled Lord Mandalore, Fenn Shysa himself. Or, as Han usually thought of him, Fenn You-So-Much-as-Look-at-Leia-That-Way-One-More-Time-and-I-Swear-I'm-Gonna-Pop-Your-Mando-Skull-Like-a-Bladdergrape Shysa. Shysa and his men had given up the mercenary life, and he'd organized his cadre into the kernel of the Protectors-kind of civic-minded volunteer police and freelance do-gooders, more or less. Which meant that Shysa, on top of his born-and-bred MESFAC more-studly-than-thou thing, had piled more-honorable-than-thou, more-self-sacrificing-than-thou, and more-all-around-good-guy-than-thou. If Han were inclined to be entirely honest about such things-which he was not, on principle-he might have admitted that his problem with the Protector commandant had more to do with a sneaking suspicion the Fenn might also be better-looking-than-thou, and with how much attention this particular Hero of Mandalore paid to Leia. And how much Leia seemed to enjoy it.

or

He exchanged a grim look with the mercenary commander who stood in an identical posture on the other side of the blown-open hatch between them. The mercenary commander was at his side because in the proudest Mandalorian tradition, he would cover his men's retreat or die in the attempt. Fenn Shysa, though, wasn't there because he was a commander. Or even because he was commandant of the Mandalorian Protectors, or because he was Lord Mandalore. He was there because he was Fenn Shysa.

or

"Down blasters!" Fenn roared; the mercenaries were inflicting almost as many civilian casualties as were the maddened troopers. "Down blasters and up blades!" And because he was the sort of commander who believed in leading by example, he leapt from the cargo container to land hard on the back of a black-armored trooper and punched his own fist blade through the back of the trooper's neck. Before that trooper even knew he was dead, Fenn had rolled to his feet and stabbed the next one in the kidney, and as that trooper whirled to face him, the Protector commandant jammed his blade in deep under the man's chin. He let the dead man fall and looked around for his next target. He had plenty to choose from; he didn't anticipate running short in the foreseeable future-a future that would be, in Fenn's experienced judgment, exactly as long as the rest of his life.

(The quick ctr+f option search showed that only Lando called Fenn’s men the Supercommandos once, but take it with a grain of salt as I didn’t reread the full book to confirm that).

On another hand, there is Legacy of the Force: Revelation (2008) keeps mentioning Supercommandos rather than Protectors:

Mirta leaned her head back against the bulkhead, arms folded. There were a dozen troops in the Tra'kad assault vessel: Jaina and eleven Mandalorians in full armor, all waiting for the order from Admiral Daala that might not actually come. The other ten were members of Fett's elite special forces, the Ori'ramikade-supercommandos, the troops who'd saved Caluula Station and her parents from the Yuuzhan Vong.

or

[...] Message from the Phaedan State Treasury to Boba Fett, Mand'alor, Al'Ori'Ramikade-Leader of the Mandalorian Clans, Commander of Supercommandos

or

When Fett stuck his head through the opening, his assessment was spot-on. Ram Zerimar, the sniper he'd first met when Corellia had been keen to hire Fett's elite Ori'ramikade-supercommandos-was turning gear wheels to aim one of the cannons, winding frantically. He came to a sudden halt as if he'd hit an end-stop and checked a gauge.

So we have two groups, each serving Mandalore (and each respective Mandalore titled as their direct commendant/commander) and even militarily supporting allies during galactic conflicts but whether we should treat them as the same kind of special forces operating under different names is not so clear.

Then came The Clone Wars followed by Disney’s New Canon with different kinds of Mandalorian civil wars, this time between Duchess Satine’s pacifist government and Pre Vizsla’s Death Watch, and later between Maul’s Death Watch and Bo-Katan’s forces.

On one hand, instead of Mandalorian Protectors we have now The Protectors (of the Concord Dawn)

The Protectors An ancient group of Mandalorian warriors, the Protectors served the ruler of Mandalore. After the Imperial occupation of their homeworld, however, the Protectors established a base on the third moon of the Concord Dawn system. Led by Fenn Rau, they formed an alignment with the Empire; after Rau was captured by the rebels Kanan Jarrus and Sabine Wren, who fought with honor, the Protectors’ sympathies changed. (x)

or

The Protectors Camp Located on the third moon of the Concord Dawn system, the Protectors Camp was the base of operations for Fenn Rau and his squad of Mandalorian warriors. Dubbed “the Protectors,” they watched over the system from this headquarters. While Rau was honorable, he acted in the name of the Empire thanks to a mutually beneficial agreement. After nearly wiping out the rebels’ Phoenix Squadron, however, the Protectors Camp was infiltrated by the Ghost crew’s Kanan and Sabine -- who destroyed many of the group’s ships before capturing Rau. (x)

who during imperial era fought against Mandalorian Imperial Supercommandos

Held in a rebel cell, Rau still refused to join the fight against the Empire. But when contact with the Protectors of Concord Dawn was lost, he volunteered to investigate with Sabine, Ezra, and Chopper. They arrived to find the planet half-destroyed, all his men killed by Imperial Super Commandos -- Mandalorians loyal to the Empire, led Gar Saxon. He came to see the ruthlessness of the Empire, and ultimately saved Sabine, Ezra, and Chopper from the Mandalorians. Impressed at their devotion to their cause, he finally agreed to join the rebellion. (x)

They are also the Mandalorian Royal Guards whose main job is to protect Satine and whose training is based on Mandalorian warrior traditions.

(Source: Star Wars The Clone Wars Character Encyclopedia)

Once Maul killed Pre Vizsla and Satine Kryze and ultimately took over Mandalore, Death Watch warriors immediately started calling themselves - or more precisely, are recognized by lore as - Supercommandos, seen the best with Gar Saxon and Rook Kast.

(Source: Star Wars The Clone Wars Character Encyclopedia - Join The Battle)

Mandalorian Super Commando: During the Clone Wars, a coup orchestrated by Death Watch topples the pacifist regime of the New Mandalorians and returns the armored warrior culture to a position of power over the isolated world. What the average Mandalorian citizen does not realize, however, is that the takeover is in truth masterminded by a secret syndicate of criminals -- the Shadow Collective led by Maul. Maul's loyal Mandalorians modify their armor to reflect allegiance to the Dark Lord. These super commandos wear armor of red and black, and some even fashion horns atop their helmets, to better resemble their Nightbrother leader. During the Siege of Mandalore, Gar Saxon leads the elite fighting force. (x)

The most stable element of this mess is the fact that Death Watch under Tor Vizsla and Pre Vizsla’s leadership DO NOT CALL THEMSELVES AND ARE NOT DESCRIBED BY LORE AS EITHER PROTECTORS OR SUPERCOMMANDOS (for example, starwars.com describes Pre Vizsla as "the leader of Death Watch, a hidden group of Mandalorian commandos"), albeit source material usually presented Death Watch as warrior elite group and one (pre-AotC!) so famous for their ferocity in battle that influenced the armor’s design of Imperial Royal Guards.

Since Tor and Pre Vizsla’s Death Watch operated outside structures of Mandalorian government (Legends-New Canon) and Mandalorian Merc once Mereel came to power (Legends) we have sort-of confirmation that title Protector and Supercommando comes with political and ideological ties, and at least in case of Supercommando, individual skills seems to be secondary issue.

Furthermore,

In New Canon, once Maul took over Death Watch and Mandalorian government (using Almec as official representative of government), Death Watch members repainted their armor in Maul’s honor and renamed themselves as supercommandos - interpreted by lore as declaration of their new political affirmation, the same as Mandalorians will in future serve as Imperial Supercommandos (Rebels TV animation show).

Imperial super commandos Mandalorian warriors loyal to the Empire, Imperial super commandos were deadly and efficient enforcers. Led by Gar Saxon, the Imperial super commandos’ armor was a distinctive and streamlined white, and their masterful combat abilities were eclipsed only by their ruthlessness. Under orders of the Empire, they destroyed the Protectors of Concord Dawn with no mercy, and sought to do the same to their missing leader Fenn Rau and any rebel opposition.

As seen with Legends, Spar and/or Shysa’s formation of Protectors included former Death Watch members. Once they joined the Protector ranks, we can assume they identified as Protectors and were seen as such.

Confusing, I know. If I have to try to make sense of it, I think the best is to see Mandalorian Protectors as separate beings from Supercommandos although both terms sometimes connect each other.

To my understanding, Protectors are part of a legal political body, operating as a mix of police and military. Supercommandos during the civil war were those who followed Jaster Mereel’s reformations (though not all were necessary the best of the best warriors/soldiers) which is why we don’t see Tor or Pre Vizsla’s Death Watchmen using such title for themselves even though their own fighting skills & spirit were acknowledged by galaxy and source material.

So, Protectors - a formal military & police of Mandalore (planet/sector), Supercommando is either an official title for those identified as excellent commandos (thus can be used for Protectors) or a name for those who followed the Supercodex of Jaster Mereel. While Death Watch operated outside of those two titles / functions, at least until their political and/or ideological goals had changed (Maul’s Death Watch Supercommandos, Imperial Supercommandos, Mandalorian Protectors).

There is a chance the New Canon came up with less confusing division between Protectors and Supercommandos, but I'm not up to date with the current Disney Star Wars.

As for Karen Traviss’ post on force.net forum, I have never seen anything like that and couldn’t find the original comment. From what you described, it sounds as she meant supercommando specifically for the level of skills they possessed, which makes sense, as not every Mandalorian soldier serving under Jaster or Jango will be the best of the best. Sadly, without the original post, we won’t know for sure the context of post nor what Traviss meant.

#my replies

Trending Tags

Recently Viewed Tags

#my replies