#pro ozpin

[kitkatopinions]

The biggest instances of hypocrisy in RWBY mostly have to do with characters getting mad at Ozpin for something they themselves do (and sometimes they're really irrational about blaming Oz anyway) and it's funny that it feels like the RWBY writers just haven't even realized they're doing it.

Jaune: "How dare Oz involve Pyrrha in his war without telling her all the details, she's dead because of him and not because of any choice she made!" Also Jaune: "Yeah, let's try to recruit everyone in the world to the war with Salem via video message without telling them all the details and also I will kill Penny for the Maiden Powers because 'it's her choice.'"

The entirety of RWBYJNROQ: "How dare Ozpin keep secrets, give half truths, and not tell us everything!" Also the entirety of RWBYJNROQ: *Proceed to keep secrets, give half truths, and not tell everyone everything.*

Raven: "Ozpin keeps secrets, prioritizes what he wants, and also uses people for their powers." Also Raven: *Doesn't tell anyone what happened with Summer, barely does anything to help people and even works with Cinder and Salem out of selfishness and cowardice, and it's heavily implied that she took in and befriended the last spring maiden only to murder her for her power so Raven could have it herself plus essentially uses Vernal as a human shield while keeping her Maiden powers a secret.*

Hazel: "Ozpin's attempt to teach willing specialists how to fight Grimm resulted in my sister choosing to try to learn and then dying on the field of battle, therefore he's evil and monstrous and deserves death and torture and I'm going to blame him for her death. How dare he-" *checks notes* "Try to stop the Grimm from killing innocent people indiscriminately by asking for willing participants who don't get their hunter licenses until age twenty one to learn to fight them to defend said innocent people?" Also Hazel: *Literally kills tons of people and wants to kill a child and tortures a child on screen while working for the murderous woman actively attacking cities full of helpless innocent children who also partially controls the very monsters that killed his sister in the first place.*

Like, the show is entirely unconcerned with checking any of this hypocrisy either despite the fact that outside of Ruby and maybe Oscar who regretted keeping secrets (and Ruby regretted more than keeping secrets) Ozpin is the only one who ever seems apologetic or uncertain about the things he does. It's only ever Ozpin who is treated as bad for doing... anything that isn't one hundred percent perfect and flawless, no matter if his back is to a wall and no matter how uncertain or unhappy he seems in his choices. Then there's Raven and Hazel over here acting superior and totally sure of themselves and yet they're the ones who pretty much go unchallenged. Like I said, it's like they don't even realize they're doing it, like they wanted their 'morally gray mentor' story, forgot to actually include it in a convincing way, and then just do not actually give a damn about the morals and lessons involved so they write the rest of the story as if it doesn't matter at all. RWBY is like this in a lot of ways, where you have to actively pretend that the rest of the story didn't happen in order to enjoy moments that contradict it (whether morally or just through story beats.) But the Oz thing is just so frustrating because it's like.... Okay, so I'm not supposed to have any sympathy for the cursed abuse victim out here doing his best and acting heartbroken while in extremely bad lose-lose conditions, but I'm supposed to have all the sympathy in the world for the screaming murderer electrocuting teenage girls and trying to murder children while victim-blaming the guy he's trying to kill for all his own actions.... And the reason for why I'm supposed to be angry at Oz is because he was attempting to help the world in sometimes flawed ways with the weight of the world on his shoulders? But I'm supposed to have no problems at all with like, Jaune or Yang because they're trying to help the world in sometimes flawed ways?

Once again, RWBY as a show has no actual real morals to follow and zero consistency.

[doomalade]

are you pro-ironwood or pro-ozpin?

Both

And of course by Pro-Ironwood and Pro-Ozpin I mean “I think the writing direction behind these characters was flawed and I feel their turn to being more antagonistic was far too sudden and sharp of a turn for me to not sense the hand of the creator at work”.

So if anyone wants to say “you support fascism!”, please don’t, you don’t even know what fascism is and you’re just using it as a buzzword because you fell for the ploy of the writers making their main characters flawless saints who are always right (this isn’t good writing, it’s called being lazy).

The way I view it, either don’t have them twist into puppy kicking villains or commit to the bit from day 1 and have them always showing signs of evil bad destruction mwahaha.

[ironwoodprotectionsquad]

Ozpin! (Please be gentle to my boi he needs a rest)

Oh I have nothing but sympathy for Ozpin to be quiet frank so no worries their!

The way the show treats Ozpin despite what we found out in the lost fable still makes me very frustrated and angry for him. This is a man who died and then was brought back and forth repeatedly by the brothers before brutally killed again which alone would be extremely traumatic. Then he was tricked and manipulated into agreeing to be cursed to fulfill what he later finds out is literally an impossible goal.

Then he finds his wife, someone who he thinks is safe but then turns around and brutally murders him and his children when he tries to leave. He then finds out their is no way to stop Salem and his only hope is to maintain a stalemate. He tries to find Allies and tell them the truth but it causes them to turn on him and betray him over and over again. He then stops telling people the truth out of fear which also gets him betrayed over and over again. No matter what he does people blame him and hate him for Salems and the brothers actions.

No one wants to talk about it but gosh what the brothers did to him to have him bouncing between body after body and their souls slowly combining because of it? That is just cruel of the brothers. If you think about it Ozma is long since gone by now, his soul combined with so many others their is no way the original Ozma is their anymore and that is heartbreaking. And no I do not believe Ozma fully understood what GOL was doing to him until it was too late and he was made to believe the fate of the world was on his shoulders and his alone.

How could he not lose hope after all he learned and endured? How could he not feel hopeless and have no idea how to proceed or deal with this information?

Ozpin was handed a terrible hand and was then proceeded to be punished for getting said terrible hand in life and it kills me. He should be of one the most sympathetic characters in the show but we’re supposed to hate him because he dared not tell the whole truth to the main characters and that is apparently the worst crime any person can commit /s.

[solardragun]

Oz salt? Please spare Oz salt. 🥺

rubs hands. let's do this again because tumblr crashed.

first things first: I want everyone who has ever called him a liar to pay me $20 and then turn in a 40 page essay on how he's a liar, MLA format, sources cited.

now, onto that. everyone harps on ozpin for lying. keyword: lying. they call him a liar, they say they can't trust him, etc. let's talk about this. keeping secrets is not lying. lying is intentionally FALSE statements / information.

so, with that, let's count the number of times ozpin has GENUINELY LIED. that'll be a total of one (1) time. what lie was this? the relic having questions.

this ENTIRE time, everyone has been dragging this poor man by the ankles and punching at him while he's down when he's lied... once.

he's kept secrets, he's kept information to himself. that, by definition, is not lying. keeping secrets is not giving false statements. to keep calling him a liar is inaccurate.

now, let's move onto the way the narrative paints him.

"he forced pyrrha to be the maiden. he didn't give her a choice. he told her to pick or everyone would die. he guilt tripped her." — to that I say, no he didn't. he explained the gravity of the situation. if he didn't tell her the heavy parts, everyone would've ripped him to shreds because he "didn't warn her". he explained what he felt she needed to know: they needed someone to take the other half of amber's power. it's a big decision to make and it will change your life. there are people out there who want their hands on this power and we don't want the wrong person to have it, like cinder. you can take your time to choose. if you don't, we will consider another option.

he gave her the information she needed and he gave her time to think about it. when she accepted, he continuously asks her for consent and if she truly wants this. she said yes multiple times.

on that note, he is not responsible for her death. he told her to LEAVE when cinder attacked. he told her to go get qrow, james and glynda, and then get to safety with the rest of the students. SHE chose to come back and fight cinder all on her own. jaune even begged her not to do it before she shoved him in a locker and launched him away. ozpin is not responsible for her death.

"he's evil because he tried to leave salem and take their kids" — okay so clearly male abuse victims don't exist to you or the narrative. ozma was MANIPULATED by salem. jinn says as much: "the hearts of men are easily swayed." this is said over salem goading ozma into being a false god with her. he continuously questioned their choices, he was consumed with guilt, his host even asked him wtf was going on.

when their daughter came into her power, ozma decided to lay the truth out, and with it came the horror of salem wanting to USE their daughters to start a new generation of magic-users. she SAID it, right to his face. he BACKS AWAY IN DISGUST AND HORROR. his logical thought then was to LEAVE. wouldn't you if your spouse decided they wanted to use your children??

it astounds me because if the roles were reversed, ozma would be the villain and salem would be justified in leaving. interesting, isn't it?

next, we have the girls ripping his past away from him and then blasting him for hiding information. this... look, I don't care how "urgent" it was, there is NO excuse for doing this. if this had happened to blake when she was keeping secrets about being in the white fang or being with adam, the characters and audience would be livid, especially when the white fang were written as dangerous terrorists and adam was written as an abuser. they're dangerous, they posed threats. if this had happened to blake, if someone forced her trauma out into the open, they would be in the wrong. but because it's ozpin, it's fine.

moving on. "lying about lionheart." — this is just ridiculous. telling the world "hey, the headmaster of haven, who was a faunus by the way, was actually the one behind huntsmen dying and the attack on the school as well as contributing to the fall of beacon." it sends a BAD message and sets the human-faunus relationship back even further. ozpin chose not to tell the people about lionheart betraying them because not only would it cause issues, he also says that he would rather people believe in all the good leo had previously done. your mistakes don't define you, that kind of logic.

"oz lied about the lamp attracting grimm" — no he didn't. he didn't SAY that it did. that's not a lie. he kept it a secret so the students wouldn't worry and actually attract grimm. which, by the way, interesting how that "attraction" seemed to have disappeared by the time v7 and 8 dropped. never once saw grimm following them around because of the lamp. the only grimm that actively attacked were the ones coming through the hole in the wall. weird, huh? almost like the story NEEDED something for the characters to be mad at oz about.

anyway, I'm gonna move on. the fact that ozpin received ZERO apologies and / or sympathy, especially from those we'd expect it from (ruby, weiss, blake) is infuriating. EMERALD was forgiven in a heartbeat, and she actively helped cause the fall of beacon, she helped kill penny, she killed a faunus in vale to prove a point to cinder (who got mad at her for, btw), she helped frame yang into "attacking" mercury so she'd look violent, she worked for salem by proxy of cinder. emerald did way much worse than ozpin, and she was forgiven !! in that same episode, ozpin is given dirty looks and "hm, idk if we can still trust you." hell, HE apologized. he had NOTHING to apologize for. these kids were in the wrong, especially when they lied throughout all of volume seven and then were justified for it. "you're not like oz, you're trusting people to prove themselves first." uh. you mean like ozpin was doing???? these students actively lied to ironwood for most of v7 until it finally caught up to them, and then they were STILL in the right. yet they got on ozpin and still reprimand him.

idunno man, I'm so tired. this isn't even the half of it but I'm angry all over again.

in any case, ozpin isn't perfect, he has made some really stupid mistakes (CCT towers that cause global disconnection when one tower falls, etc.), but like, he's not the devil either.

[dragynkeep]

You know what of the many things I hate the most that the fandom does regarding Ozpin? Is how whenever they try to justify and give proof of Oz’s manipulative & sinister nature they always either a) bring up the whole Pyrrha thing where they scream, rant and stomp their feet like children that he manipulated her into being a Maiden which therefore caused her death. Or b) bring up how he in the eyes of Ozpin haters “destroyed lives” from the lies he told. When literally all those destroyed lives were a result of Salem.

It’s like 🤨 frustrating?

it fits very well with how abusers manipulate things to make everything the victims fault, as we've seen with how salem bent the narrative in her own people & even in the songs to cast ozpin as the shady master manipulator a la the godfather or something but ... the issue is the writers follow that. they can't decide whether ozpin is a poor victim or a master manipulator, a shadowy puppetmaster & they play both angles to no fulfilling conclusion.

ozpin is & should be a very flawed character who has made mistakes yet the narrative of the show treats him like his crimes are worse than salem's, the woman who has literally orchastrated this & murdered him & their children when they tried to leave.

even when we get to the extent of ozpin's "crimes" ... they're understandable. justified, even. because we've seen what happens when people know too much, as with leo betraying him & the inner circle when salem found a weak spot. we've seen what happens when a maiden is too far from the inner circle, amber was viciously attacked & left for dead. we've seen the depths of ozpin's trauma from his abuse & unlike blake or weiss, we get none of the sympathy for him. often times he's even blamed by the fndm & the narrative; those same two girls offer him no respite from yang's downright ugly anger at him because they know his experience.

even pyrrha's death ultimately wasn't ozpin's fault — he told her not to go up to the tower & to go find glynda or one of the teachers instead. pyrrha being a maiden candidate wasn't what killed her, cinder had already gotten all the maiden powers at that point, it was pyrrha's own stubbornness & drive to fight cinder that got her killed. something that was later glorified by the narrative anyways, which i hate, so why is ozpin blamed for this? half the things ozpin has been blamed for, are choices the characters have made with their own agency often times against his wishes.

ozpin is also treated as an outsider while someone like emerald, who facilitated the murder of two of their friends & was far more responsible for those deaths than ozpin ever was, is quickly included into ruby's inner circle with a pouty jab & a little huff.

it's frankly nonsensical & i can't offer up a solid reason for why some of the fndm think this way beyond the fact of them buying into salem's part of this muddy narrative & also probably having post traumatic dumbledore disorder.

[kitkatopinions]

Do you think Glynda would have been the only one to side with Ozpin, or at least not hold much of a grudge against him, treating him empathy, after his big secret reveal in V6? She's already displayed a great deal of uncond trust towards him when she talked with Ironwood about him having doubts about Ozpin

Honestly, if the only thing that changed was Glynda's inclusion and the same writers were still doing the same things... I don't think Glynda would've sided with Ozpin at all, because the writers love to write "and then RWBYJNOR think blah blah blah," or "and then RWBYJNORQ want XYZ." They struggle to do plotlines where people can disagree without being framed as One Hundred Percent Bad In The Wrong Needs To Change Might Be Evil. I feel like if they had Glynda be a more prominent role and involved in the story up to V6, they would've had her also be so furious and disappointed in and angry at Ozpin just like Qrow, even if it didn't make any sense.

Logically though, what I think would happen if the writers cared about consistency and making their characters have an original thought, I think that Glynda would be the most on board with Ozpin and have the least problems with him out of anyone.

I think Qrow should've sided with Ozpin, but been personally very hurt by Ozpin's lack of trust in him, creating conflict for them to work through later. I think Yang should've been against Ozpin, resolving that he can't be trusted because he lied to them and (however temporarily) icing him out and not looking to him as a leader. I think Weiss should've been mostly on Yang's side, albeit with a bit more sympathy towards Oz, sort of in the camp of "I get where he's coming from but clearly we can't trust him to be honest or to always have our best interests at heart." I think Blake should've actually taken the stance of "you guys don't know what it's like, maybe he should've told the truth, but it's easier to say 'you should trust us' than it is to actually trust people after you've been hurt so many times, I've been there and I get it" and she should've been way more sympathetic towards Ozpin because of her backstory. I think once Jaune heard about it later, he should've had problems too and been willing to work with Ozpin, but hesitant with him and frequently doubting the legitimacy of his claims and tending to rely on himself and Ruby and not really think of Ozpin as any sort of reliable guide to be consulted in plans. Ren should take kind of the same stance as Jaune, albeit with a more logical thought process of "we should only do what he says if we think he's right, everything else doesn't matter as much." And I actually think Nora should've been fully on board with Ozpin, easily assuming that he only lied to them and/or didn't trust them because he'd been hurt in the past, and that she doesn't really care and still likes him. And I think that Ironwood should've - when he eventually heard - been somewhat hurt as well, but understand the logic of it, but also just resolve to work all the harder himself, knowing that Ozpin is not always a safety net and knowing that Ozpin doesn't always share everything important. And Glynda would fully on Ozpin's side except unlike Qrow (who I feel has a very emotional and personal connection to Ozpin and would fall back on believing in Ozpin because he loves him more than because it logically makes sense) and Nora (who I honestly think is just a very loyal follower with strong intuition and a good judge of character but doesn't really have much logic behind 100% trusting Oz,) Glynda would instead completely get where Oz is coming from, completely understand why he did the things he did, completely agree with them, and just keep trusting him completely. As for Ruby (who is the most important person here,) I think that she should've been kind of in-between and not sure what to think, feeling confused on how she's supposed to react, trying to make everyone happy at once, and be understanding but also a good strong leader herself, and tries to rely more on herself instead of others in the wake of what happened.

Basically, if I was the RWBY writer, I think Glynda would side with Ozpin because that's what I think makes the most sense for her character. Everyone should be having different reactions because what Ozpin did is nuanced, not just pure evil, and I think that with what Glynda was like in V1-3, the natural thing and what would make the most sense would be her understanding and supporting Ozpin. However, I think if the writers included her, she wouldn't side with Ozpin at all, because they didn't want it to be a nuanced conversation and a chance to show the range of their characters where some people agreed with Ozpin, some people didn't, and some people were kind of in-between. They just wanted to say 'Ozpin is bad and dumb and we should all be against him,' and so they couldn't have Glynda do anything but agree with Team RWBY... Unless they made her into one of those characters that temporarily disagrees with Team RWBY so they can all be like 😮🫢😞😠 and then they either take it back later of become an antagonist.

[solardragun]

one more thing about oz (among many).

you know, everyone drags him for lying and keeping secrets, and it's just so funny to me because like, the show itself has told us why he kept secrets.

every time he came out with the truth, two things happened: people betrayed him, or they lost hope and gave up.

these are all the times he's told the truth / came out with it, and the results he's gotten:

telling salem about his task from the god of light = is told that why should they worry about pesky humans when they can replace them with their children. he then fully realizes and confirms that salem only cared about power and getting back at the gods, and decides she's too dangerous for himself and their kids to be around. he's killed as a result, alongside their daughters.

telling his circle that salem is immortal = raven leaves entirely before "teaming up" with salem's forces and selling her family out to them, lionheart gives up hope and joins salem instead, soon causing the fall of beacon, ozpin's death, the attack on haven, and the deaths of many huntsmen.

rwbyq finding out salem is immortal = he's yelled at, punched into a tree, retraumatized at having been forced to see his past play out in 4k, and then the girls lose hope for a day.

ironwood going off the deep end after finding the truth alongside salem showing up at his door = shoots him/oscar off a ledge that would've killed him if oz didn't come back and help oscar tap into his magic. (clarification: i don't blame ironwood for this, i blame the writers. this should've never happened, but i digress).

that's not counting other acts of betrayal from the people of his past. he wants to be honest and open, and he was for a good while. he opened up about his past (mostly), he answered the questions the kids had, he warned them that it would be hard, and he even gave them an out. he stopped being open the moment he realized lionheart betrayed him.

when something like that happens, it's no wonder he closed off from everyone and remained tight-lipped, even about the smallest things. he was hurt and clearly angry if him snapping in v6c2 was any indication. even if he wanted to trust the students, he couldn't because he was still coming fresh off of leo's betrayal. anyone would close off if that had happened.

not like it mattered when the students betrayed him anyway despite insisting that they wouldn't so they can pry his secrets from him.

[kitkatopinions]

I should be sleeping, but instead I'm thinking about Qrow just always Having A Spot with Ozpin and James all the time, and other people not getting it fully. And by 'having a spot' I mean:

They both leave an office window at their schools open and they leave a window open at their personal houses for him every hour of the day, even when it rains and even when it snows. So he always has a quick way to get into a warm house if he needs it (using his bird form to fly in.)

They both have guest rooms in their houses that over the years have just become Qrow's. They have items of clothes Qrow has left at their house in drawers, they bought extra pillows because they know Qrow likes that, they keep the room tidy in case Qrow needs it. They also have things they know Qrow likes stocked in their kitchens. Side note, but it's one of Ironwood's favorite things, to wake up and find Qrow unexpectedly in his kitchen, sitting on the counter and eating Apple Jack's in flannel pajama pants and a t-shirt that probably once belonged to Tai and saying 'Morning, Jimmy.'

Qrow has access to their high security level stuff, he can pull up city plans on his scroll and highly classified case files whenever he wants. They casually talk to him about whatever is going on in politics or with security or with national diplomacy, even though he's technically just a Huntsman.

They both are fine with Qrow being with them during pretty much every step of their day. They enjoy having Qrow hanging around in their offices, helping them here and there on things, fetching things for them when they need it. They don't mind Qrow following them while they do their various jobs, having Qrow take things off their plate when he can. And they don't mind if Qrow tags along to meetings (when they can get away with it,) or even just absently follows them home.

They always make time to listen to Qrow talk about his family and show them pictures of Ruby and Yang. They like talking to Qrow about his missions or his weapon or his problems with Raven or which of his students he liked. Even when they don't personally have an interest in a subject, they still have good conversations with Qrow about it.

They keep toolkits (and medkits) handy in their homes and at their schools, ready with quick fixes if things break, and are always quick to assure Qrow they don't mind, knowing that he considers even minor inconveniences to be his fault. They also take precautions, tightening screws and refurbishing things at least semi regularly so they're less likely to break.

They both know Qrow is self-deprecating and also craves closeness, so they're both not stingy with complimenting or expressing appreciation for Qrow most of the time, they try to make it clear that they want Qrow around and care about him without overloading him. They both don't shy away from physical contact when Qrow initiates it, and they both try to give enough physical contact back that Qrow isn't as touch starved, but still won't feel like they're going too out of their way.

Idk, I just love Qrow feeling like he has a space with them, like he fits into place in their lives because they take time and effort in making him feel valued and wanted. Qrow spends a lot of his time lonely and second guessing himself (both in my headcanons and the show proper,) and I just love imagining that during long missions or hard nights, Qrow still knows in the back of his head that he's cared about and wanted at least with Oz and James. I also have most of these same headcanons for Tai, too, but those headcanons are a bit different since they include Yang and Ruby. But yeah, soft James and Oz caring about Qrow headcanons are literally keeping me up at night. XD