#tbosas analysis

[roswayward]

I'm going to throw My own take on the whole debate if Coriolanus loved Lucy gray or not

To oversimplifi my answer is Yes he did love her but was it a healthy type of love? ABSOLUTELY NO AND A THOUSANDS TIMES NO

His love for her was built one fascination he saw her as a different race entirely not really capitol or district but when she ran away he returned to view her as a lesser being and it was built on a need to control and possessiveness he is very possessive of her we can all agree on that he was fascinated by what made her ' different ' but at the same didn't want her to be her own person or be a individual he got offended and annoyed whenever she showed that she had her own life and individuality he wanted her to continue to be dependent on him

For goodness sake he wished she was still trapped in the capitol where she was dehumanized and kept in a horrible situation and far away from the people she loved and treated like an exotic animal that's not something you'd wish on someone you love in any shape or form loving someone means wanting what's best for them and that's not something he thought about when it came to Lucy gray The Best thing for her was to live in the capitol with him like Lucy gray wouldn't be extremely misarbel and traumatized in the capitol everything about it would make her misarbel and depressed to the biggest degrees

And let's not forget the fact that this dude is EXTREMELY MISOGYNISTIC let's not forget that he is very misogynistic and very sexist

He wasn't going to be emotionally available for her and he wasn't going to waste a chance for power

He loved power and control more than anything which is why he threw Lucy gray and sejanus under the bus and demonized them despite the fact that they were very kind people and later he'd throw Tigris who sacrificed everything for him years later

He in general seems to think that love makes someone weak and he refuses to believe that it could be unconditional and it can be used to break a person which is why he killed all of Haymitch and later Johanna 's loved ones and why he didn't believe katniss loved peeta despite the fact that she already proven that she loves peeta back in the 74th games despite what she thought otherwise and when it turned out that she genuinely did he tortured and hijacked peeta to kill katniss thinking that peeta won't be coming back from that and would never love katniss again but he proved him wrong In that regard and so did Katniss

The concept of strong unconditional love and acceptance that can rise above all obstacles is something alien for him and impossible

So yes he might have loved Lucy gray but it was in a very unhealthy and possessive way he wasn't going to be able to love her unconditionally or accept her as an equal partner they were always doomed because he didn't want an equal partner but something to control all of which are admittedly things that are the product of being raised in a status obsessed and very violently misogynistic environment but it still doesn't change the fact that it made him view love very negatively, I'd even say that he didn't love his children or grandchildren and was willing to discard all of them if it was for his benefits and he must have felt powerful because of it

I think what makes snow such a horrific and hateable villain is the fact that next to being a brutal dictator and war criminal he is also a relastic depiction of an abuser and that is always horrific the closest villain I could think being like him is jimmy from mouthwashing both are horrifying villains because of how much they are relastic abusers though snow has much more blood on his hands but still both are the absolute worst

And I think that was suzzane 's intention

After all we are unlikely to encounter a classic Disney or anime flamboyant villain In our day to day life but we are very likely to encounter abusers and people who do cruel things for self preservation and personal ego and we often see the cruel and vicious things people in power do

[thegreatmelodrama]

I think Snow was a such an interesting and well-written villain in the trilogy. This is largely because Snow makes very few physical appearances in the book; he exists as this sort of ominous omniscient character that presents a looming sense of danger. We see this with the rose(s) he left for Katniss, the sending of peacekeepers to 12, the sewer mutts, etc. He elicits such a strong reaction, namely one of fear, within Katniss without ever having to be physically present. But even when he is physically present, his physical description also adds to that ominous aura that emanates from him: the “snake eyes” and faint stench of blood that is barely covered by the smell of rose perfume.

And yet, he still exudes a certain amount of charm about him as we see through his interaction with Mrs. Everdeen and even somewhat through his last conversation with Katniss. And this is something which we see even more of in TBOSAS. But what always stuck the most out to me about Snow is how he said that lying is a way to cover up weakness and he makes an agreement with Katniss to never lie to one another. Something about that honesty and his ability to be candid about what he does to some extent is what makes him truly terrifying.

As for the end of TBOSAS, Snow’s transformation is tragic and infuriating all at once. Namely because, he could’ve acted otherwise. And that is one of the messages of the novel. We aren’t born inherently bad, however we can become that through our actions and reactions. Snow had these opportunities to grow and to learn from the different perspectives he encountered. And yet every-time he failed to do so. He could have let Sejanus go, even if he didn’t agree. He could have let Lucy Gray go. He had so many chances to learn to love—truly love. But everytime, he chose power and control over human beings which evokes within us a frustration and anger. There is definitely nuance here: Gaul’s manipulations and his own trauma. However, this doesn’t justify his actions especially in the third act of the novel. But it doesn’t make it any less tragic to see someone with the capacity for goodness go down the wrong path. Snow wasn’t destined for this. It was of his own agency combined with some other external factors (to a lesser extent) that he ended up where he did. And when you understand this, and his agency within his actions, it makes him all that much more horrible when we see him in the trilogy.

[homano222]

Snow's relationship with lucy gray reminds me of that one quote "I love your mother but she's more like a pet to me." 😭

see yeah unironically as a fan of invincible and tbosas coriolanus would LOVE the viltrumites.

But as for the quote tbh i go back and forth so much on him and LGs dynamic in terms of this. I dont think its that he doesnt dehumanize her at several points in the story, its kind of part of the themes of fascism in his character/in the book that he does, but i do think theres an extra layer to it. Like instead of putting her underneath him he puts her on this pedestal where hes “othering” her to the rest of the districts, less like shes his dog and more like shes his, pretty, perfect canary he can just admire. Again, i thinks its complex, they have a genuine bond and he does appreciate her, but i do think the book makes nods at how people in oppressive societies dehumanize those from cultures they deem “lower” even if they dont realize it.

[moreespressoformydepresso]

So I was thinking (shocker I know) about Gaul's theory about humanity. That people, when cornered, lose their humanity and become monsters. More specifically, I've been having thoughts about the moment that "confirmed" this theory in Snow's head for a while now and decided to put them into words. Which might be a terrible idea, but I never claimed to be smart.

According to Gaul, people who are cornered will do anything to survive and lose all sense of humanity to do so. The Games are supposed to be a constant reminder of this, which already raises a few questions that I was going to pose before getting to my actual thoughts here until it evolved into a whole separate train of thoughts. I'll make it a separate post instead but long story short: If it was supposed to be a reminder of this "truth" it was a sloppy, embarrasing failure at best (and also that's not how science works). Regardless of that though, the moment that solidified this delusion is his brutally murdering Bobbin while escaping the arena with Sejanus. There's a problem though. Or rather, there's several problems. Firstly, Snow chose to bash Bobbin's head in until he was unrecognizable. Chose, because he didn't have to do it. If you want my more interesting/unique(?) thoughts skip the next paragraph.

Most people would have knocked Bobbin out at most and then kept running, Snow chose to keep hitting with the wooden plank. He did this not because he lost all his humanity, but because he is a deeply disturbed individual. His formative years were filled with war and propaganda, and his family's proud name being dragged into the mud by his living situation understandably gave him a complex about power and wealth. He needed to feel above other people to cope, and the Capitol provided. Now, that does not in any way excuse his actions (and if anyone's interested I have several essays worth of thoughts on that and all the ways in which it makes me adore Collins and hate extremes in fandom), but it does explain them. Moreover, that complex and stubborn pride in his family's former high status likely fed into his belief in Gaul's theory. If it's true for someone of his status, it must be true for everyone.

Now, the actual reason for this post

Gaul's theory is that people lose their humanity when they're cornered. Emphasis on cornered here. When people are put under pressure, they will act in depraved ways. From Snow's perspective of reality, this is true because when he was cornered he brutally beat a child to death. But was he cornered though? No. Sure, he was in a scary situation, but he was not cornered. There was one child with a knife chasing after him. A starved, dying one. Snow and Sejanus could've easily outran him with some adrenaline boosting them (that shit makes moms lift whole cars to save their kids, come on now), nevermind the millions of other solutions that aren't "beat a child to death with a wooden plank until they're unrecognizable". More importantly though, they're not stuck in the arena. The peacekeepers didn't actively protect them, but they opened the fence for them. Snow could leave the arena. He could've dodged Bobbin and ran, and he'd have been able to leave the arena without murdering a kid. He was pressed, but he was not cornered. Not only does this theory have the most pathetic "proof" of any scientific theory since Andrew Wakefield's vaccine scam, the incident that confirmed it in Snow's mind isn't even a situation where the theory is applicable in the first place. It doesn't prove that people who are cornered lose their humanity. You know what it does prove, though?

People who have power lose their sense of humanity

Snow was not entirely cornered, but he did have power. As mentioned before, Bobbin is a starving child with nothing but a large knife. Snow might not be well-fed by Capitol standards, but he was certainly doing amazing by district standards. He had a wooden plank and a child at his mercy. What did he do? He maimed and murdered the kid. And throughout the entire book, stuff like this happens. Gaul showed him how the snakes work because he's her favorite prodigy. What did he do? He used it to cheat and help Lucy Gray win. When he had that recording of Sejanus admitting to rebellion, he had power over Sejanus' life. What did he do? He got the guy executed. When he had a gun and Mayfair became a possible problem, he shot her. When he became president, he kept the games going and poisoned anyone in his way because he had the power to do so. Mayfair has the power to influence who gets reaped, and uses it to try and get Lucy Gray killed. It happens on a larger scale too. It's the whole point of the series. The Capitol has all the power, and they use it by abusing and murdering the people from the districts, either to keep them in line or just because they want to. For entertainment. Because they can, and there's nothing the districts can do about it. Coin has power, and what does she do with it? She gets Prim killed to break Katniss into her pawn and suggests to put more innocent children through the Hunger Games because she can. Just like the Capitol did, 75 years before that. They can, so they do it. Who's gonna stop them? It's all over the series. And they all try to justify their actions by blaming it on people. Mayfair’s excuse is getting rid of “competition”, the Capitol claims the districts are getting what’s coming to them for the rebellion, Coin claims this new version of the games is what the rebellion wants. Snow has all his mental gymnastics.

It's not desperation that turns people into monsters, it's power.

And those with power will always convince themselves it's not the power, it's the people.

[belovedinfidels]

i have thought in great detail about coriolanus and sejanus, and whether or not coriolanus ever really liked sejanus. i think that the novel/movie are purposefully constructed to make this ambiguous, but i prefer to veer on the side of "yes, he did."

coriolanus' way of loving people was...lacking, to say the least. even with tigris, he thought awful, mean things about her, but it was evident he cared very much for her. the problem with coriolanus was not that he couldn't love -- it was that he could not love without first being assured that his investment would yield positive results for him. at least, he could not readily admit to himself that he was loving until he knew it was going to work out for him.

his character is very succinctly summed up by sejanus, when he tells him, "I remember that from school, watching you watch other people. Pretending you weren't. And choosing the moments you weighed in so carefully" (397). without fully knowing the totality of it, sejanus got it all too right: coriolanus took people in, measured them out, decided what they meant to him, and weighed in when he thought it'd benefit him. coriolanus was calculated in all things, most of all in love—a thing he knew made you vulnerable.

but that's not to say what coriolanus said to himself was the exact same thing as what he felt. if it was, i do not believe he would've done half the things he had done for sejanus--even given the prospect of reward in the end. this is part of what makes coriolanus descent into evil so heartbreaking: a part of him was good. he did want for connection and comfort, even if he had a real fucked up way of going about getting it. coriolanus was a dog that bit without fully knowing why; it was a protective instinct he used, because so much of his life had been filled with loss already.

in the book, after coriolanus snuck his father's handkerchief with lucy gray's scent into the tank of snakes, he went to sejanus' house. this is an incredible detail that so many people tend to overlook when they talk about coriolanus and sejanus' friendship. the beginning of the chapter reads:

"What had he done? What on earth had he done? His heart raced as he blindly turned down one street and then another, trying to make sense of his actions. He couldn't think clearly but had the dreadful feeling he'd crossed some line that could not be uncrossed" (287).

we start this chapter with a frenzied, rattled coriolanus, one terribly afraid of what he had just done and the consequences this action might have later. he was scared and isolated, and he didn't know what to do. a little further on, collins writes: "His feet had carried him far from home, but he realized the Plinth apartment was just a few minutes away. Why not pop in?" (288).i find this construction of words to be fascinating, especially in relation to coriolanus--a character we have come to known as calculated and precise, even in moments when he has to think on his feet. one could argue that during this part of the book, and in this state, it makes sense that coriolanus might wander that far from his home absent-mindedly. it shows how out of touch with himself he had become, and just how much the act he had just committed disorientated him. but i think it was more than that. i think coriolanus wanted to go to the plinth's house, that he was seeking comfort after he had done something incredibly dangerous (something, arguably, that sejanus might have done), and he could not admit it to himself. and his original intention had been to see sejanus, but sejanus was asleep.

the fact that collins wrote "his feet had carried him" and "he realized" is so brilliant. i’ve got lots of opinions about why she chose to write the book in a third person point of view. one of the reasons i think she did it has to do with the fact that coriolanus was distancing himself from himself--shedding culpability through phrases such as these, especially in moments like this. coriolanus did love sejanus, but he simply could not admit it to himself because sejanus was not a safe or wise investment to make. coriolanus refused to give credence to his need for him, and it ended up killing the boy in the long run.

[chamomile-tea-time]

i understand reaper is a big symbol in the movie and a lot of people admire his character as this defiant rebellious kid who stands up for what's right, but at least 80% of that persona was the movie's adaptation of his character.

in the book, he:

• attacks coriolanus without provocation & is said to have killed a peacekeeper (the movie kept this)

• was injured in the bombing

• intimidates the other tributes

• apologizes individually to the other tributes for when (not "if") he's going to kill them

• tells the other tributes that when he wins he's going to take down the capitol

• gets spat at by jessup, contracting rabies

• first cuts down a piece of the flag to trade to lamina for food, not as a statement

• makes a big splash and gets attention without clemensia's help

• carries all the bodies around in delirium from his rabies

• covers the bodies with the torn down flag (the movie kept this)

• chases lucy gray around, still delirious, injured, and starving

• accidentally drinks rat poison and lays down next to the other bodies to die

in the book, he does not:

• show much sympathy for the living tributes

• die because of the snakes

• talk to the cameras

i think the movie's choice to turn him into a compassionate figure was super intriguing and i'm glad so many people liked this change because i thought it was really cool as well^^ however, i do think the original version is important as well, as it shows that the tributes were really just confused, broken kids, only with fear and survival fueling them forward

[expelliarmus-percabeth]

one interesting thing I haven't seen people talk about is the way lucy gray baird's personality is very reminiscent of the manic pixie dream girl trope - and that's not to say that she's poorly written or one-dimensional in any way, but the dress, the spontaneous singing, all her "quirky" behaviours, the way she's seen through the eyes of a guy who's "stuck in a societal system" and sees her as this completely different, rebellious, being that "breaks him out" of the mold he's in - sound familiar? but this is a dystopian novel and not a romcom - her character was very specifically crafted this way because of the role she serves in the greater narrative in the end: a legend, a myth, a mystery - and that's why her mpdg-type personality works so perfectly. to snow and the reader, lucy gray is always going to have that air of intrigue around her, because she ultimately lives on in our memories not as a person, but as an idea and an icon.

[hayabug]

lucy gray you deserved so much more

i just finished tbosas (book) and i’m haunted by what were potentially lucy grays final moments. she desperately runs in an attempt to save her life. someone she trusted, someone she was severely trauma-bonded with, turn out to be who she always knew he was. in the back of her mind. from the start she was wary of him, but she chose to trust him, to love him, because she thought he was better than people who had hurt her in the past.

after mayfairs death, she already had a target on her back, didn’t she? so she chose to make that leap, to leave district 12, subsequently leaving her only family, to try and run away and be free. and that’s all she wanted, to be free. And she has coriolanus by her side, who she thought was willing to leave everything so they could both be free. but all he needed was an opportunity, a chance to gain the comfort of his life back. imagine being her in this situation.

You see the look in his eyes as he looks at those guns. you see his disgust as you teach him how to fish, the disgust at this life he said he wanted to live with you.

And that’s when you piece it together: the third person he killed, who he betrayed, was someone he claimed was like a brother to him.

and so you lie; say you’re going out for katniss. and you run.

Lucy gray must have been terrified. she was back in the arena; only this time it was someone that she decided to trust who was doing the hunting.

She sets a desperate trap, and watches as the man she once thought she loved goes rabid, almost as if had rabies; and she sings out her song— sejanus’s song— and holds him accountable

“Are you, are you

Coming to the tree?

Wear a necklace of rope, side by side with me.

Strange things did happen here

No stranger would it be

If we met up at midnight in the hanging tree.”

and the mockingjays whom he hates so much carry forth her song, driving him beyond mad. and just like her namesakes ballad—we don’t know what becomes of her. no one does.

But she stays a spirit. she’s in the trees, where he can’t catch her. but she also haunts his mind; where he can never get rid of her either; never catch her.

-

sorry if this is put together very sloppily i just have so many thoughts about lucy gray that are all trying to claw their way out of my head. in conclusion i am never getting over her ever and am begging suzanne collins to personally tell me her fate please