#tes meta

[theemparra]

I think my favorite Skyrim theory ever is that because Alduin decided to try and dominate the world instead of devour it as he was supposed to do at the appointed time, he lost all right to decide its fate.

As soon as he refused his task in order to feed his arrogance and greed for power over creatures, the fate of Nirn was stripped from him, and the prophecy that the Dragonborn fulfills was set in motion.

Alduin gets trapped in time, stalled for a while, until the fates converge to bring a certain prisoner to Skyrim.

Then, Skyrim’s fate is in the Dragonborn’s hands.

Alduin forfeited all say in the fate of the place he felt he had the right to meddle with.

That’s why Akatosh orchestrated or allowed or whatever, the Dragonborn to smack down his son.

I like it.

[theropoda]

thinking abt sanguine again it's funny how he's the prince of debauchery and lust and getting drunk and fucking and since he's presented as a man he's usually like a short tubby dude w a beer belly or just a normal looking daedra but you just KNOW if he was depicted as a woman he'd be like a Skinny Sexy Busty Woman. bc the prince of debauchery as a man is lustful meanwhile the princess of debauchery has to be the Subject of lust. anyways big fat womansanguine chugging down barrels worth of mead

[sheos-silliest-soldier]

I dont have a particularly coherent way to describe it, but the fact that the main part of your character in Oblivion is created before they can interact with anyone in the world feels so significant in a metatextual way. In Skyrim and Morrowind, you create your character during/after listening to other people talking and getting somewhat of a feel for what is going on. People have already shown you kindness or cruelty or used their power over you, no matter who you are. In Oblivion, you decide how you want to look, you start to get an idea of what sort of person you are, and then are thrown into the world with some asshole shouting obscenities tailored specifically for you. Truly unparalleled.

[iosaturnalia]

Ever since I started reading the 36 Lessons of Vivec, I have been going over Lessons One thru Eight in my mind, trying to figure out how much of the narrative is based in Vivec’s real past and what is simply metaphor (spoiler alert: I think the 36 Lessons are, on the whole, Vivec’s way of grappling with trauma and the first trauma he ever experienced was losing his mother in childbirth!).

But honestly, I believe we can put on our Queer Theory goggles to read these sermons as just an extraordinarily convoluted coming-out story.

Within this reading, Vivec’s mother is the form he takes in public, which is read as female, and his “egg” self within that body is male or at least non-binary. (As Vivec is written with he/him pronouns, it’s my headcanon that he leans more towards the masculine side of the spectrum.)

As far as we know, the caravan who finds him is comprised solely of men. The merchant captain attempts to sell Vivec’s body, but Nerevar defends him and instead takes him to a woman, Almalexia.

The moment at which Almalexia, Sotha Sil and Nerevar congregate for the first time within the Lessons is the moment Vivec emerges from the form of his mother and merges with her, creating (as described in maybe my favorite poetic moment of the entire text):

“the union of male and female, the magic hermaphrodite, the martial axiom, the sex-death of language and unique in all the middle world.”

Hence, he coalesces into all of what he is destined to be - he mantles his masculinity as well as accepts his femininity, a conquest synonymous with a submission, mirroring the duality we see all throughout Vivec’s sphere and story. And all of this is done in the sight of his most beloved, trusted partners. 🥺

I have so much to say on Lessons Twelve and Fourteen (yeah, THOSE ones) that I’ll post about elsewhere, but… if you want to take the transition narrative further, you could read those as Vivec not only taking on his gender as a true identity but as a physical form - i.e. exerting his will onto a tangible plane of existence.

Idk man. Without getting into the moral implications of how Vivec reached heaven (through violence), there’s something so empowering about the narrative of gender enlightenment as a parallel to divinity. The first eight lessons describe Vivec’s understanding of his role in the universe, that he was created for divine purpose, but also what he is to himself.

[mellowscrolls]

Imagine coming out saying that the discussion of the elder scrolls should remain apolitical a week before Bethesda releases an Oblivion Remake with a Mankar Camoran who looks like he comes out of an anti-China 18/1900s political cartoon 😭😭😭😭😭

Better Articulated Thoughts on this Phenomena in TES from before the remake release (this is not new)

[mjrdm]

Skyrim!Sheogorath cannot be the same old Uncle Sheo we all know and love

I believe I've stated a few times that I'm not a big fan of mantling on Shivering Isles theory, but I feel like I need elaborate and write my thoughts down on the theme

The narrative of reoccuring mantling was brought up by ESO, known for it's lore butchering and overall timeline fuckery. And in this case it's the same old "we know there's a Big Theme so we'll roll with it without unique and complex understanding of it" case

For me it's a cheap writing. The whole plot of Shivering Isles is that Sheogorath creates a new way to defeat his sworn enemy - so fresh, in fact, that he doesn't have time to think it through, Haskill has to follow it and deal with it instead.

Sheogorath's new brilliant idea is to give away power [to a mere mortal!] - a pretty big move for a daedric prince, don't you think? Daedric creatures are prideful and will never do such thing. But he's not bound by any universal, daedric rules, even if it's the rule of pride. He has a free will, free even from the limitations of mind and temper.

That what defeats Jyggalag. Sheo's been right all along - free will is stronger than any predetermined fate.

A beautiful leitmotif, the universal wisdom that it's only you to decide your fate, you can do whatever you want and create yourself a version of life you desire...

Yeah, all of that is thrown straight to the trash by ESO writers.

Turns out, Sheogorath is just as stupid as Jyggalag is, trying the same method again and again in hopes that maybe one day it will work (It's a flag that Jyggalag may be insane himself and very important to his character, please for the love of god don't rob him of it like that)

One day it works because of ??? reasons and that's it. New amazing Shivering Isles interpretation.

Yes, Sheogorath can replicate Jyggalag's methods and try the same old thing forever (he's Mad God, after all), but why is our Champion so different from previous "mantlers"? Ocs' stories can weave into this narrative but there must be divine intervention to pick them as The Chosen One to solve little mad prince's affairs etc etc. Why would they do that... I can't believe I'm actually writing this.

This writing decision does both of daedric princes dirty imo. It's a story we've seen in some other media and it's easier to understand, but it sands down the tragedy of this plotline and important lore occurence.

Sheo knows that the story repeats itself and it will happen again and again, and the pain of his loss is real. It's not about being doomed, or weaker than opponent, it's about things he's used to and grew fond of, being taken away from him in a tactical defeat.

Throughout the whole SI plotline Sheogorath sends us on a different missions - mostly to fix some stuff, build barriers and unite his soldiers. It's not pointless tasks to game with the hero - it's what Sheogorath usually does to defend his realm. That's why it doesn't work. You cant defeat someone with outer forces when they're literally in your head.

So no, nobody mantled Sheogorath before his Champion/HoK. Not in the original Oblivion narrative.

Haskill did not Mantle™ Sheo, but I do believe he did something of sorts. Not the thing the hero does in the SI, but there's enough freedom to make something up.

So, post-canon.

People often forget that Jyggalag is not just part of the Madgod, he is him. Sheogorath is him, transformed and corrupted. Jyggalag is the host, as some may say.

After events of SI Jyggalag is gone. His fate is of no matter, what we have left is the soul of madness, the essence of it. The realm is a part of the prince and it was left relatively unharmed, so while all of their skirmish happened something new and standalone had managed to form.

It has never been independent without a person-host (Uncle Sheo), so it'll take time to take over the hero. They will become the Madgod - the title, the role, but not the person.

Having Jyggalag as a part of himself was essential to Oblivion!Sheogorath as a person. You can even interpret his Three Heads symbol as Jyggalag - Madgod - Sheogorath (mania - something in-between - dementia, mind - soul - heart etc.)

Something something a fair share of mental problems come from fear of death and Sheogorath can basically understand how it feels like, he can feel it through himself, while other daedric princes are not affected by it.

That's why I tend to see Skyrim!Sheogorath more as a force of madness (force of nature almost) with human memories, rather than a person.

[rei-ismyname]

I hate Sheogorath

TLDR he's an absurd caricature of mental health and he's unforgivably *zany*

In case it wasn't obvious, I've been hyperfixating on The Elder Scrolls lately. Block #tesblr if you're not interested in that. One of the great things about Tumblr is that it's a space to express things you don't have anywhere else to - I've wanted to express this for years and I don't really mind if nobody reads it.

When I refer to Sheogorath, I'm drawing on my observations from Skyrim, Oblivion, and TESLegends. I don't recall his appearances in Daggerfall or Morrowind and I haven't played ESO (yet.)

Sheogorath is the Daedric Prince (DP henceforth) of Madness. Fandom discussion has touched upon the issue of representation a lot, and folks are right when they say Sheo is an inaccurate and borderline offensive example. I won't touch on that bc I don't have anything to say that hasn't already been said.

My view is that he doesn't deserve to be The DPOM, because an all-powerful, mean-spirited, fickle, zany figure for neurotypicals to giggle at (when he talks endlessly about cheese or narwhals or whatever) is weak characterisation. Especially compared to the deep lore and character of every other TES deity, he just doesn't cut it. It might not make sense if you haven't played TESLegends, but he gets OLD when he's overused.

He's also associated with drug addiction and needless cruelty. He's having a great time, though. Obviously they can't walk it back now, but I think he'd work better as A Trickster God figure. (Well they could, but they won't. Bethesda is too high on their own farts.) Lorkhan already occupies/ed that spot, but it's explicitly stated that Sheogorath was 'born' when Lorkhan 'died.' It doesn't mean they're one and the same (TES doesn't work that way) but the two are definitely linked. So what gives? The trickster deity who 'created' the world vs a zany dipshit who'd be executed after a week as a medieval jester.

He's in opposition to Jyggalygg, the DP of Order. Madness isn't the opposite of order, though. It's disorder, chaos. If I were writing him, I'd change him to a Loki-type figure - and make him a patron of 'madness' or mental health - just one aspect of his realm. So instead of being a fickle dickhead who exists to torment mortals, he'd have the ND under his protection. This gives him some pathos, and as a well-rounded trickster he could actually pose a credible threat to everyone while opening up a lot more narrative space for him.

That's the end of this ramble, I might edit it later. LMK if you agree or disagree, if I got anything wrong, or what have you.

[pizzaback]

thinking about sheogorath this morning. what a weird character. like his presence (in theory) should have these huge implications for the role of the mentally ill in the fictional cultures of TES and creates a wealth of narrative and thematic opportunities that are only sometimes explored in the actual games. will write more on this i’m working rn