will byers stan first human second
he wasn't even looking at me and he found me
wallacepolsom
❣ Chile in a Photography ❣
Origami Around
⁂
if i look back, i am lost
izzy's playlists!
I'd rather be in outer space 🛸
"I'm Dorothy Gale from Kansas"
Jules of Nature
Monterey Bay Aquarium
★
trying on a metaphor
taylor price
pixel skylines
noise dept.
h
macklin celebrini has autism
#extradirty
seen from United States
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@tcathings
“My man’s leaving me but imma stand here posing like a full course snacc™️ so that he knows what he’s gonna b missing and what Sam’s gonna b getting mhmmm *snaps fingers sassily and gay-ly* I’m a strong independent Bucky and I don’t need no Steve, if he liked it then he shoulda put a ring on it”
A Ghost Story and a Love Story [Part1&2] (English version) Translation by @yensasha ❤️x3000
Endgame - Don’t do anything stupid until I get back - (2019)
stucky + hugs
The story behind the ring
I needed to fill in the missing scene of Steve telling Bucky about his plans. Just some good old not-endgame-compliant all-about-Bucky angst. Do you need a hug? I do.
Let them love each other.
So, well, it’s Mer-May and all… and I owe my amazing beta reader Ro for being amazing as all hell, so last night in between drafting and paint elevations, I took a break to make a Bucky and Steve merman thing for her.
Cowards.
Captain America: The First Avenger (2011) & Avengers: Endgame (2019)
Is this the russos reaction or defense technique to the hate they r receiving from bucky stans?
ENDGAME.
Have we been fooled by what we saw? A.K.A. An interpretation of the Cap’s Ending in Endgame
Warning: I am a stucky/ironspider fan so my point of view may not be completely unbiased. If you don’t like it, don’t read it. I will try my best to keep this article free from any slash context but you have been warned. Oh and yes English is not my first language so I could be wrong with some terms. (If you volunteer to beta this article my first born is yours)
Also since the Endgame DVD isn’t out yet, all the scripts of Endgame contained herein are based on my memory only.
AND
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! SPOILER ALERT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
1. Introduction
The Cap’s ending hinted that Cap went back to the past to stay with Peggy there (and apparently not caring about life or death of his other friends like Bucky and Howard). This is what many Cap fans have problems with. Fans argue that the ending destroyed the arc of Cap’s entire character.
I physically hate this ending, trust me, I really do. At first, I cried and cursed and wished to hurt someone (by someone I mean any person who works for Marvel and Disney). The ending of Cap, at least apparently, is ridiculous, non-sense, illogical, awkward, extremely OOC and plainly inconsistent with the time traveling principal applied to the entire movie. However, the more angry I was with the ending, the more it makes me think: how could it be possible for Marvel to make an ending which contained multiple ridiculous plot holes and intentionally butcher the character, i.e. Captain America, which they have built up since 1941? Other than the reason that the makers of the film are unbelievably retarded (please don’t disappoint me for having some faith in your intelligence), I realize that maybe the plot holes and OOC in the ending are left there intentionally or because every Disney movie must end up with a man and a woman kissing and dancing together, so the real Marvel fans will have the fun to dig out the true ending hidden behind (especially when the Russo brothers are known for teasing fans by giving misleading scenes).
When this hit me, I stop to look at the entire time traveling theory and details in the movie, then I come to a conclusion that, there is NO fxxking way that Cap had went back in time and married Peggy.
2. Going back in time and its impact on the present
There are so many movies about time traveling and what the impact of going back in time and change things in the past has on the present (or future) is. Three theories are mainly used in the movie industry:
(a) Time Paradox/Final Destination: under this theory, you cannot change the present by changing the past no matter what you do. Even if someone goes back in time and tries to make a change, he is going to fail no matter what. This is also the argument of Grandfather paradox, which means that you cannot go back in time and kill your own ancestor no matter what. So when this theory applies to movie, it’s always like this, someone goes back to the past and try to change something, however, he keeps on failing to complete the act or even if he completes the act, some new events occurs and makes the outcome remains unchanged (like a force of time that can fix itself. I will refer it as the “Time Band-aid”). We can see this theory apply in the movies like Terminator (Skynet tries to kill Sarah and John Connor in the past, but failed no matter what. Sarah and John tried to prevent the creation of Skynet, they even destroyed the chips but turned out the Skynet was still developed by other way). I also want to mention Final Destination although the movies are not related to time traveling. However, it demonstrates a good example of how the time (or destiny) will create new events to make sure that the outcome remains unchanged. So basically, under this theory, you may go back in time and make small and minor changes, but you cannot change the final outcome no matter what. It’s either you will fail miserably or the Time Band-aid will create new events to lead to the final outcome.
(b) Butterfly Effect: under this theory, you can go back to time and change the past and even if you unintentionally makes tiny little change, it will eventually cause the entire present to change. Most importantly, the effect of any change in the past is totally unpredictable. You cannot guarantee you will get the outcome you want even you change certain events in the past. This theory can be easily observed in the movie Butterfly Effect, so I don’t think I need to explain it as much.
© Parallel Universe: some people think this theory is also part of the butterfly effect theory, but I distinguish these two here. So under this theory, you may change the present by changing the past (or fulfilling a specific condition in the past), however, when you make the said change (or fulfill a specific condition), a parallel universe will be created, all the subsequent events after the change or the fulfillment of a condition will be occur in the alternative universe. The time and events in the original universe and in the parallel universe will be independent and unaffected from each other. However, all the events to be occurred in the original universe will remain unchanged (changes will only occur in the new parallel universe).
3. The theory used in Endgame
Dr. Banner had stated in the movie that “ …time doesn’t work that way. Change in the past doesn’t change the future… I don’t know why everyone believes that but that isn’t the truth. Think about it. If you travel to the past, that past becomes your future. And your former present, becomes the past! Which can not be change by your new future!”
And there is this conversation between Dr. Banner and Ancient One:
Ancient One: If I give up the time stone to help your reality, I’m dooming my own.
Bruce: With all due respect, uh, I’m not sure the science really supports that.
Ancient One: The infinity stones create what you experience as the flow of time. Remove one of the stones, and that flow splits. Now this may benefit your reality, but my new one, not so much. In this new branch reality, without our chief weapon against the force of darkness, our world will be overrun. Millions will suffer.
So one thing is clear from Dr. Banner’s speech which is you cannot change the past to change your present or future. This is consistent with the multiple time traveling done in the movie: they went to the past and made some changes, but nothing had been altered in the present. So we can pretty much rule out the butterfly effect theory in this movie. Now we only have the Time Paradox theory and Parallel Universe Theory.
It was also given in the movie that, if you remove the infinity stones from current timeline, it will create a parallel universe. However, it is not given in the movie that if you changed the past, there will be a parallel universe. This is a very important point to note because if removing the infinity stones is the only condition to create a parallel university, that means even the movie has some scenes concerning parallel universe (which was created after the removal of the infinity stones), it doesn’t necessarily mean Time Paradox Theory doesn’t apply. It also doesn’t mean that if Cap goes back to the past and do certain things (except for removing the infinity stones), he will create a parallel universe.
From the movie, we never get the hint or scene that changing the past (other than removing the infinity stones) will create a parallel universe. In fact, all the scenes related to the concept of parallel universe, including Nebula killing her past self and killing Thanos of 2014, all occurred after the removal of the infinity stones. So it is still uncertain as whether or not changing something in the past will create a parallel universe.
(A) Time Paradox Theory
If Endgame in fact uses this theory, that means one thing, nobody can change the past no matter what. Think about The Terminator and Final Destination, you either cannot possibly complete the act resulting a change, or you may succeed once (or even twice) but eventually the result will be the same.
This theory is consistent with the part when Tony and Thor cannot save their respective parents. I don’t want to go into details as how much these events affect the two superheroes, but if you are a Marvel fans you should know that if there is slight chance to save their parents’ lives, those two will not hesitate one second to do so and they don’t mind giving up everything they have to have their parents back.
However, because the past cannot be changed no matter what, Tony and Thor had to say goodbye to their parents, and that basically meant to let and watch their parents die again. So this goes to our conclusion, if the Time Paradox Theory does apply here, how the hell could Cap go back to the past and marry to Peggy Carter? There is absolutely no fxxking way! It’s physically logically and realistically impossible.
If this theory is in fact true, that means Cap went back to the past, had a dance with Peggy, then he left and let Peggy to live her life. He couldn’t save Bucky and Howard because the past cannot be changed, not because he deliberately chose not to save them. He then lived an ordinary life until 2024 and at the end he met Sam to pass the shield (consistent with what he told Sam that he wanted to try some of that life Tony was telling him to get).
I also heard about a popular theory that Cap is actually the husband of Peggy who never named or showed up in the movie. Cap just started live incognito and nobody actually found out that Peggy’s husband was Captain America, this way Steggy will be possible without changing the past. I don’t know how they get this idea from but this is straight up impossible too. I don’t even want to go to Cap’s arc personalities that how he would do something like this. In fact, Peggy’s husband actually passed away before Captain America 2 which took place in 2012. So if Steve was Peggy’s husband, he wouldn’t live until 2024 to pass the shield to Sam. And are they just going to pretend Agent Carter (btw also took place in earth 199999) doesn’t exist?? Most importantly, I don’t think Peggy would even go along with this plan (shrug).
(B) Parallel Universe Theory
As discussed above, under this theory, a parallel universe will be created after you made a change in the past. This is by far the most convenient explanation to…. almost everything in the Marvel universe. See, every time Marvel gets plot holes or something they cannot explain by logic or reasoning, they will simply say it is a parallel universe, so it’s not necessarily consistent with the earlier plots.
If this theory is true, that means Cap went back to the past, had a dance with Peggy (and maybe even got married because now he can change anything he wants), then he may also go to save Bucky and other people. He then lived an ordinary life until he got his hand on the time-machine then he traveled back to his original university at the year of 2023 to give the shield to Sam.
I personally think this theory, although convenient, doesn’t seem to apply to the Cap’s time traveling experience at the end of the movie. There are a lot of bugs and logical errors in this theory if we think closely:
(1) If the old Cap was indeed from another parallel universe, that means he was teleported here by using one of the Ant-man’s machine. Why is he wearing his ordinary clothes??
(2) From the movie, we can only perceive that the time traveling machine only allows you to go back to the time in your own universe. As a matter of fact, during the multiple time-travelling occurred earlier in the movie, they all went back to the past of their original timeline instead of some random parallel universe. So how the hell the old Cap can travel back to the timeline of his original universe instead of the 2023 in his new parallel universe??
(3) Why wouldn’t Tony and Thor saved their parents then? If saving their parents means to create a parallel universe where their parents can live their happily, I don’t see there’s anything holding them back.
(4) Don’t forget that the Avengers fought Thanos against the odd of 1 out 14,000,605 (0.00000714%). It could even be said that the final victory was in fact a miracle. If Cap indeed started a new live in a parallel universe, how could he make sure that the Avengers will win against Thanos in this universe?? He had changed so many things in this universe. He can even guarantee that the same avengers will appear when Thanos come! Is he just going to not care about half of lives in the universe being wiped out by Thanos in this universe??
So I don’t really buy the Parallel Universe Theory unless Marvel can explain the above bugs with reasons. I don’t think they will or can, but I am gonna give them the benefit of doubt. Let’s say they actually explain how the Parallel Universe Theory applies to Cap’s ending perfectly, it still doesn’t avoid the butchering on Cap’s character:
(1) Peggy moved on after Cap’s death. She got married and had two kids. Her life without Cap was good. When she first met Cap in Captain America 2, she actually told Cap that she had lived a life and her only regret was that Cap didn’t get to live in his. So Cap knows that this woman was happy with her life and she got no other regret in her life (she didn’t even regret for not marrying him for crying out loud!). So why would he step in and ruin everything for Peggy? How is he so confident that he will do better than Danielle? I have only heard about people going back to the past to mend a mistake or to save a life, I have never heard about a person gong back to time to wreck a home, let along that person being the symbol of righteous and justice.
(2) So Cap actually made out with his own niece?
(3) If this is in deed a parallel universe, there will be another Cap in this universe. How are they going to solve this problem other than studying Kama Sutra? Is he just gonna let his alternative self freeze in the ice so he can get Peggy all by himself?? Wow, Cap, I thought you were selfish, but I didn’t know you would go so far as let your alternative self suffer.
See? Marrying Peggy, even in the parallel universe, is illogical, awkward and ridiculous. I am not even going to argue about whether Cap deserves to retire, whether he deserves to be with the woman he loves. This is just plainly wrong if anyone look at this situation with sense!
4. The real ending of Cap
I just spent three hours typing the above context and I am not trying to tell you why I have problem with the Cap’s ending, rather I am trying to tell you that the Cap’s ending hinting Cap marrying Peggy could indeed be a fake ending. It could be a fake ending not because I don’t like it, but because it is just impossible and unachievable (if we are using the Time Paradox Theory) or illogical and immoral (if we are using the Parallel Universe Theory and if Marvel can actually explains the bugs therein). Marvel cannot possibly make Cap marrying Peggy without creating a huge logical plot hole in the movie or without butchering Cap’s character entirely.
There is also another hint in the movie that Cap didn’t marry to Peggy. During the end, Sam asked Cap if he wanted to talk about the lady. Cap actually replied “I don’t think I will”. Cap’s response is indeed very strange if he married Peggy. I think everyone in the America knows the history between him and Peggy. What’s there to hide? Especially Sam is the first and best friend of Cap he met in the modern time. Sam always always went all the way Cap. Why would Cap try to hide the name of his wife in front of Sam? It is very possible that Cap wears the ring to remember Peggy, the lost love he couldn’t have. So he didn’t refuse to answer Sam’s question, rather, because he didn’t get anyone to talk about.
Also, I have been following the interviews of the directors and writers of Endgame after it was on theatre. From what I learned so far, none of the director or writer of Endgame ever confirmed that Cap and Peggy were married. They did however, confirmed about the dance they had. So at least I am quite satisfied with my theory that Cap’s ending is not him marrying Peggy and stayed in the past for good.
The movie didn’t actually show what Cap did in the past so we might never know. There are too many possibilities. However, none of the possibilities could involve marrying Peggy for all the reasons I just explained above. I am totally down with the idea that Cap went back to the past and just stayed there to live an ordinary live. Why? Because it is the idea consistent with the previous Captain America movies! Cap is always a person out of his time. He didn’t fit in to the modern time and he always misses the time in the past. We can see these in all the previous movies: he plays music in the old days, Peggy told him that her only regret was he didn’t get to live his own life, the world has changed to much for him to cope with, he never liked the politics the authority made him went through, etc. So he wanted to go back to the past and actually live his life as an ordinary person. I don’t think this is a perfect ending for Cap either but at least this has been built up through the entire Captain America series (and Chris Evan is leaving the franchise so you have to find a way out for Cap without killing him off because if you killed him too it will make Ironman’s death less impressive). Further, even if he chose this path, it does not butcher the arc of his character: he didn’t save others because he either cannot possibly do so (Time Paradox Theory again) or he didn’t want to risk anything to affect the victory they fought so hard against Thanos.
5. Conclusion
I think I have gotten down all my arguments of what I think the Cap’s ending is. Thank you very much for taking your time to read this. Even if you don’t agree with me, I am still thankful.
Please feel free to re-tweet, re-post, or quote this article or any part of it, wherever you like, as long as you credit me as the author.
Special thanks to Shililiuguang (lofter ID: 十里流光) who helped me to recite the scripts of Endgame and Pipipipidan (lofter ID: 皮皮皮皮蛋) who helped me to make the pictures (they are amazing!). If you would like to re-tweet, re-post or reuse the pictures, please credit her as well.
Please feel free to leave me a message if you would like to discuss the Cap’s ending or want to correct me for anything. I am opened to suggestion and would be grateful if you could tell me what you think about this article as well.
So until next time.
xoxo
End Game Q&A from Russo Brothers in China
I just knew it! And this is also a relief for me since I ship both Steggy and Stucky. If they can milk fandoms for money and views they would do it! Steve wasn’t selfish… they explain and not explain a lot of stuff.
Probably depends on the whole fact if Chris Evans would ever like to put on his suit again!
Keep reading
💜Evanstan💜
ENDGAME SPOILERS for Steve ahead
…….
…
Who wants a theory that can make all our ooc Steve problems go away? Because I did, and I think I have an explanation that makes sense.
Ahhh, Steve… Buddy, matey… I’m onto you.
So let’s get one thing straight – Steve cannot be on that bench per mcu time travel logic if he married and had a life with Peggy, since that would create a new alt timeline that would not lead to that exact moment. And since he didn’t come back through the Quantum Tunnel, there is no way an old Steve who married Peggy could be there.
What does this mean?
:)
He didn’t marry Peggy. That wedding ring? I doubt it’s anything more than some ploy, which I’ll get to.
Sure, if he hadn’t married Peggy, he could have married someone else. That’s possible, but it would have still created a new timeline, even if he knew the person hadn’t been married in 2023 or whatever, he’s still changing something.
My point is, the only way Steve can be in the current timeline’s present is if he went back in time, returned all the stones and just… stayed. For whatever reason, he stayed. But he couldn’t alter any of the past, otherwise, new timeline, that he’s stuck in. He clearly wanted to stay in the same timeline.
He gets his one dance with Peggy, which she probably thought was some dream/hallucination.
Although, if she was aware, the way she reacts in catws when she forgets she was talking to Steve, is probably the way she reacted when he turned up at her doorstep unannounced.
“You’re alive! You…you came, you came back. It’s been so long. So long.”
Or, instead, this is her reaction to Steve post-dance. Maybe he disappeared, to avoid changing the timeline so he could stay in his own. She says he ‘came back’, that seems like a weird thing to say considering the ice. So, you can either go with this line is how she always reacts to him returning, or this is her reaction with knowledge of that dance.
Either way, this line still allows Steve to have his dance with Peggy while staying in our timeline, since it doesn’t change anything.
(which makes Peggy’s advice to Steve in catws even more heart-breaking, because she knows he doesn’t take it on-board, but she says it anyway, maybe hoping he does, at one point, realise he can never truly go back).
Okay, so, he doesn’t change anything to end up in 2023, sitting on that bench. The only way that can happen is if he lived a life of isolation, probably watching over the Stones. A Guardian of the Timeline, if you will. (I’d like to think that Steve and the Ancient One became friends, it would make sense, considering he’d be watching over the timeline)
It’s poetic, really. Steve slept through the seventy years first, only to go back to emotionally torture himself to get to the present.
While Bucky gets tortured and used by HYDRA, Steve has to live in isolation to preserve and protect his own timeline :)))))) Isn’t that nice?
So, why the wedding ring?
To make Sam think he lived a life so he would accept the shield. Sam instantly assumes he’s married to Peggy with the way he puts emphasis on ‘her’. All Sam has ever wanted for Steve was for him to come to terms with his issues and be happy.
Come on, we already know Steve was leaning towards getting out in catws, Sam picked up on it immediately, asking if Steve did wanna get out (I explain this further in this meta: here). To such a point Sam told him he could do whatever he wanted to do. If Sam believed he’d lived a life, a happy one, he’d roll with it.
Anyhow, ‘old’ Steve is fully ready to finally be free and let Sam take the mantle. He wasn’t going to take no for an answer, hence, the wedding ring. Sam, really, sees what he wants to see.
Which… brings me onto Bucky.
Before Steve leaves, Bucky looks pretty sad. He might look content and may understand what’s going to happen, but he’s upset because he knows Steve’s not coming back. Not through the Quantum Tunnel anyway. I don’t believe he knew what Steve was doing exactly, but he knew enough (or knew Steve enough) to know what would happen. Still, he held out hope that his Steve would come back through, unchanged.
Of course, Steve would explain everything afterwards (maybe that’s why we didn’t see it….) probably when Sam leaves them to talk alone. Since we never saw Bucky talk to ‘old’ Steve, anything is possible.
Another question you may ask of this theory is… why. Why would Steve do all this, just to stay in the same timeline?
Well, while the Russos may like to destroy the very thing they created, I’m here to say my theory allows an easy answer. Steve waited all those years, ensuring the timeline was preserved, so he could end up back in 2023, where Bucky was safe and sound. Where he could finally retire (like he was wanting to do before Bucky came back in catws), and be happy knowing Sam has the mantle of Captain America.
All the while, Bucky comes home to him everyday to tell him stories about Sam and their stupid adventures, in which they’re always bickering.
Steve in turn gets a real happy ending (that doesn’t make him ooc as hell) and Bucky gets to be happy too, knowing his best friend is still with him, always.
Before I end this theory though… I’d like to turn your attention to why I’ve been putting ‘’ around ‘old’ Steve. Of course, Steve is old now. At maximum, he’s a hundred and fifteen. But that’s not my point.
My point is… with all we know of the serum, Steve should be incapable of aging. In Steve’s own words:
“Doctor Erskine said that the serum wouldn’t just affect my muscles, it would affect my cells, create a protective system of regeneration and healing…”
Huh… Regeneration? Weird… That would suggest that his cells would never lose their protective telomeres. So, they would always perfectly reproduce, his DNA wouldn’t get messed up with silly mutations (he can’t get ill for that reason). And if his cells always reproduce the way they are supposed to, and his telomeres never shorten because of the system of regeneration and healing then…
He wouldn’t age. He can’t.
Look at the ice. When he was still frozen the scientists were like ‘:o he’s still alive!!’. He’s already lived for seventy years and didn’t age. (Come on, the way he was frozen, and the way his body was exactly the same, suggests that not only did the ice keep him preserved, his serum did too).
Remember, Thor said the Asgardian ale was not for mortals, then proceeded to give Steve a glass. This is why.
Our boy Steve is a lying liar who lies all the damn time and we should all know that by now. That’s an older Steve, still in his young body, sitting dramatically on a bench, excited to finally pass the shield to Sam, who will later reveal to Bucky that he was wearing a photostatic veil the entire time. He’ll dramatically pull it off to show Bucky that he’s still in peak physical form.
He can finally live as Steve once again, because he hasn’t had the chance, not since before the war. Okay, maybe he was more Steve during the five years after the dusting but that was when half the world was gone so it doesn’t count.
In 2023, he gets to have his real chance. He gets to be himself. Without the weight of the timeline bearing down on him, without the threat of Captain America, he gets to retire in a real way (with Bucky).
It’s the only thing that makes sense, with everything in mind.
@avengersbarnes
I’m gonna miss you, buddy. It’s gonna be okay, Buck.
